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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsKRUGMAN: 'We can’t have REAL debates, because the cockroaches and zombies get in the way'
Paul Krugman - New York Times Blog
January 2, 2014, 1:39 pm
Bodyguard of Zombies, Counterattack by Cockroaches
Todays right wing never gives up on a politically convenient argument, no matter how thoroughly it may have been refuted by analysis and evidence. It may downplay that argument for a while though often even that doesnt happen but it always comes back.
Inequality is a clear though not at all unique example. Consider three arguments one might make against 21st-century populism:
1. Inequality isnt increasing.
2. OK, inequality is increasing, but its not a problem.
3. OK, it would be nice to have lower inequality, but any proposed solutions would do more harm than good.
Which of these arguments does the right choose, when making its stand? The answer is, all three. Argument 1 faded away briefly when the CBO published its landmark study documenting the rise of the one percent, but as weve just seen, its back (this is an illustration of the concept of cockroach ideas.) Argument 2 doesnt stand up under scrutiny, but it just keeps being made anyway its a zombie. But meanwhile, argument 3 is made against anyone like, say, the new mayor of New York who proposes even the slightest effort to equalize opportunity.
This kind of thing flummoxes many people, who imagine that were having a real debate. It makes perfect sense, however, once you realize that the other side here isnt engaged in good-faith argument, just looking for anything that comes to hand, with no regard for consistency
Id love to be having real debates on these issues. But we arent having and cant have such debates, because the cockroaches and zombies get in the way.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/bodyguard-of-zombies-counterattack-by-cockroaches/?_r=0
via:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2014/01/03/friday-morning-open-thread-chill-tundra/
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)edhopper
(33,580 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)of issues, resembles the techniques seen here daily.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)Especially in the Environment and Energy Group
And of course, the BOG
After all, when you attack someone's god, be in nuclear or personality...
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)is invoking the "BOG".
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Ya know the BOG wouldn't get so much shit if they were not so obnoxious, intolerant. and exclusive.
They want their own little safe haven, but feel entitled to disrupt, hijack, belittle, and dismiss anyone outside that doesn't comply with their wishes. Not all of you are like that, but like the "good Christians" that tolerate their leaders inhumanity, you also don't do anything to discourage those that are.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)MsLeopard
(1,265 posts)I think.....
jwirr
(39,215 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)ideologues touch a nerve with you? I'm sure it did.
xocet
(3,871 posts)transliterated means god in Russian:
God религ.
бог {м} [тж. перен.]
god [also fig.] миф. религ.
...
http://browse.dict.cc/russian-english/%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3.html
Demeter
(85,373 posts)but don't give the conspiracy any more fuel, please.
xocet
(3,871 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I've noticed that ... But I suspect we would point to different examples.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)It's what DU is for. If you want to read in-depth, exhaustively researched and documented college student quality papers, I recommend Kos.
The problem with that place is that it just takes to long. I can swing in and out of here for a few seconds or a minute at a time while I'm waiting for something in real life, DK requires you to sit and read long diaries, read more documentation if you want to verify or dispute the content, and then the reply itself frequently requires hours to compose and link. But, the quality of discourse is much higher and actual debate is frequently the result. The trolls are over there, too, but they are just ignored.
It's the difference between sitting down to a nice dinner and picking up a burrito at the drive through on your way someplace else.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm not looking for "in-depth, exhaustively researched and documented college student quality papers", just fewer cockroaches and zombies ... It was once like that on DU. Posters posted thoughtful arguments and, if/when refuted, had no problem acknowledging and/or accepting the validity (or valid parts) of the argument.
Now? ... We see links to the latest out-rage directed at Democrats, in general, and President Obama, in particular ... and when the out-rage turns out to not be so outrageous, just give it a day or two ... it'll be back.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)You cannot blame the electorate when politicians screw up. It's the politicians fault.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I blame DUers for that. Third Way® has little to do with the cockroach/zombie "arguments" and out-rage that shows up on DU.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)and much more pervasive, and we won the election but kept acting like we lost.
adirondacker
(2,921 posts)boston bean
(36,221 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)makes for some of the best comedy.
eta: especially when it's unintentional.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)in his discussion about government regulation "holding back" small businesses. Same shit, different day.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)criticizing Bloomberg in his inaugural speech, but as soon as he mentioned "Income Inequality" he
blamed Obama for it, even though Billionaire Bloomie stood against raising wages in obscenely expensive New York.
Cha
(297,240 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)I think the show should be renamed "Republicans Talking".
Mika is little more than an attractive token, in my opinion.
"LIES LIES & More LIES"
I'm sorry, Cha, but I don't know what IOW means.
Cha
(297,240 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)That's easy, I shoulda been able to figure that out myself!
Cha
(297,240 posts)much fun I had teaching you!
When I first got on the net I didn't know any of the Abbreviations and decided "LOL" was "Lots of Luck".. I still stay that to myself. rofl
whathehell
(29,067 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)underpants
(182,807 posts)Sorry just felt like throwing out there.
BENGHAZI is like the RW Yahzee!!!!
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)as legitimate viewpoints, instead of ludicrous and discredited talking points.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)its what their payed to do.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 4, 2014, 11:56 AM - Edit history (1)
I think you'd enjoy it. I sure did. He talks about how America has always allowed "fringe" opinions, but in the past they were treated as fringe. A looney would be seen AND TREATED by journalists as such. "Yes yes very nice....now go away". There was true rebuttal in political discussion.
Now, looneytunes and dangerous cranks are treated as legit by the false equivalency media and that influences how people think.
With no examples of critical thought before them and no shunning of easily dismissable morons, people who have always taken "The Media Experts" at face value start twisting or numbing their own thinking....because "they couldn't say it if it weren't true".
(Edited for grammar 1/4/14)
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)IDemo
(16,926 posts)Sounding almost Twain-like here:
http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ0207GREETINGS
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Only using current vernacular.
I had no idea he (C.P.) existed until I picked up his book in the bookstore.
Another great (and prescient) read is the late great Neil Postman. I read "Amusing Ourselves to Death" about 10 years ago. It was written in the 70's. Knocked me over. I gotta remember to read more of his stuff.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 4, 2014, 08:27 PM - Edit history (1)
whenever the media pairs a Nobel Prize winner with a PhD in Economics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Krugman) or, the "lesser" qualified PhD'ed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_D._Wolff) with a Master Degreed (in a field unrelated to Economics) journalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Cavuto), or a BA degreed (maybe, word the wording of the entry) Journalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stossel) and give their opinions equal weight.
I wonder why the media has rejected my rebuttals to Stephen Hawkes' arguments in the field of Theoretical Physics ... I have a graduate and professional degree (though neither are even close to Physics) AND I, once, read a comic book!
Moostache
(9,895 posts)CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Joe was embarrassingly bad, but overtalked Krugman and relied on superficial arguments and bully boy tactics, trying to make Krugman look weak, then he and his thugs from the show pronounced Joe the "winner." And for a long time the Morning Joe website bannered "Joe Schools Paul Krugman."
Paul just hasn't got the time or patience with loudmouthed jerks like Scarborough...
gtar100
(4,192 posts)Paul hits another nail on the head. He's definitely one of the best at understanding the twisted logic of the right wing. I recognize this pattern a lot. It's like the one place they refuse to go is the one that will actually fix the problem for the better. Instead they hang onto their prejudices, their bigotry, their hatefulness as if it were their oxygen. They are like addicts, deeply afraid of the withdrawal symptoms.
thesquanderer
(11,989 posts)1. global warming isn't happening
2. but if it is, people aren't causing it, it's part of natural cycles
3. but even if people have contributed to it, there's nothing we can do about it within reasonable means
4. and even if it happens, it's not so bad... in some ways it could even be good.
These arguments, often made by the same people, indicate that they have no interest in determining the truth, since they can be equally happy with any of these generally contradictory positions... all that matters is that the liberal or democratic position be seen as wrong. What's right doesn't matter, as long as "the other side" is wrong.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)This EXACT same line of perverted "reasoning" infects everything the right holds dear...its their go-to playbook for EVERYTHING!
To wit:
The Pattern?
1) DENY as strongly as possible for as long as possible (the related corollary is to simply CREATE something out of whole cloth and state it as 'fact' regardless of evidence or lack thereof!)
2) OBSFUCATE as much as possible for as long as possible
3) REFUSE to accept reality without stupid or unthinking caveats
Specific uses of 'The Pattern'?
The aforementioned economic trends and global warming/climate change, but there are quite a few others too!
Evolution of species?
1) Didn't happen...
2) Did happen, but only with "kinds" begetting "kinds"...
3) Even if it MIGHT have happened, it can only be because "god" controlled it...
Cancer linked to cigarettes?
1) NEVER! Fake! HOAX!
2) Well, maybe, but the science is unclear and the debate goes on...
3) Well, not really, but IF it did, there were warning labels on packs that counter acted things like Joe Camel and the Marlboro Man ads...
4) Even though smoking may have caused cancer, we really can back off now because the rates of smokers are in decline anyway.
Taxes rates are too low?
1) HERESY! We found a witch, may we burn her?
2) Well, EVERYONE knows that the makers won't stand for these high taxes much longer, so even if taxes are historically low, we better lower them further just in case...
3) The charts that show a correlation to improved economic conditions when taxes are raised on the affluent are lagging indicators and are only positive BECAUSE the lower taxes made them possible in the first place don't-cha-know???
Voter fraud is endemic to the system!
1) Our elections are in peril, everyone knows this!
2) The fact that we don't have draconian enough enforcement of rules that make it possible for only advantaged (ie. older, whiter) people to vote is CAUSING this to destroy our trust in government...
3) Even if there is no fraud, the only people who believe this is a problem think that because they want to use it to bribe people with free stuff to be life long voters for them.
Of course, failing that "pattern" they can always revert to the simple slogans like:
Benghazi!
Obamacare!
Death-Panels!
"Real" America!
Or just cut to the quick - BE AFRAID OF THEM! (then define "THEM" however you need for maximum effect)
nikto
(3,284 posts)This EXACT same line of perverted "reasoning" infects everything the right holds dear...
its their go-to playbook for EVERYTHING!
To wit:
The Pattern?
1) DENY as strongly as possible for as long as possible (the related corollary is to simply
CREATE something out of whole cloth and state it as 'fact' regardless of evidence or lack thereof!)
2) OBSFUCATE as much as possible for as long as possible
3) REFUSE to accept reality without stupid or unthinking caveats
Specific uses of 'The Pattern'?
The aforementioned economic trends and global warming/climate change,
but there are quite a few others too!
Evolution of species?
1) Didn't happen...
2) Did happen, but only with "kinds" begetting "kinds"...
3) Even if it MIGHT have happened, it can only be because "god" controlled it...
Cancer linked to cigarettes?
1) NEVER! Fake! HOAX!
2) Well, maybe, but the science is unclear and the debate goes on...
3) Well, not really, but IF it did, there were warning labels on packs that
counter acted things like Joe Camel and the Marlboro Man ads...
4) Even though smoking may have caused cancer, we really can
back off now because the rates of smokers are in decline anyway.
Taxes rates are too low?
1) HERESY! We found a witch, may we burn her?
2) Well, EVERYONE knows that the makers won't stand for these high taxes much longer,
so even if taxes are historically low, we better lower them further just in case...
3) The charts that show a correlation to improved economic conditions when taxes are
raised on the affluent are lagging indicators and are only positive BECAUSE the lower taxes
made them possible in the first place don't-cha-know???
Voter fraud is endemic to the system!
1) Our elections are in peril, everyone knows this!
2) The fact that we don't have draconian enough enforcement of rules that
make it possible for only advantaged (ie. older, whiter) people to vote is CAUSING this
to destroy our trust in government...
3) Even if there is no fraud, the only people who believe this is a problem think that because
they want to use it to bribe people with free stuff to be life long voters for them.
Of course, failing that "pattern" they can always revert to the simple slogans like:
Benghazi!
Obamacare!
Death-Panels!
"Real" America!
Or just cut to the quick - BE AFRAID OF THEM! (then define "THEM" however you need for maximum effect)
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)But only because the media plays along.
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)about all of it is that when it's discussed on most of the MSM at best you get someone from viewpoint 2 arguing with someone from 3.
cer7711
(502 posts)The zombie knows it needs brains to survive.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Thank you!
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)For instance, shutting down any conversation about gun control with the same old spurious arguments made by gun Humpers.
openfield
(30 posts)That's just one issue that the right wing propaganda machine succeeds in sticking its creepy claws in to left wing enlightened life.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)So far the Obama administration has been able to wipe most of it off, but when you have 100 million flinging their poo, I guess you just have to become accustomed to the smell.
I think I'll refer to them as
Another Stupid Stinky Fingered Republican or by the shortened form
ASS-fingered-republican
Rex
(65,616 posts)Trolls usually don't last on DU.
herding cats
(19,564 posts)I'm a bit of a Krugman fangirl, which I admit. Still, it's hard not to see how he spanked the WSJ in that one and made some amazing points about the current techniques being implemented against facts and against logic.
certainot
(9,090 posts)Todays right wing never gives up on a politically convenient argument, no matter how thoroughly it may have been refuted by analysis and evidence. It may downplay that argument for a while though often even that doesnt happen but it always comes back.
this is because of one thing: the left ignores RW radio.
that's the biggest mistake in political history.
1200 think tank-coordinated stations doing the groundwork invisible repetition to create the alternate realities in which billionaires create jobs and other myths.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)apparently very recently.
It was "stupid liberals" that instituted the restrictions that did exist and it's the "stupid liberals" that have been trying to get the cognitively challenged to see this problem for decades.
I'm very happy that you've finally caught up, but perhaps you should take a moment to see where you are in relation to the rest of us before you start calling other people stupid.
certainot
(9,090 posts)and the specifically targeted limbaugh boycotts are the ONLY challenge to that huge advantage in messaging, lying, excusing, distorting, intimidating and enabling.
it is STUPID that the collective 'left' continues to ignore RW radio.
certainot
(9,090 posts)actually i've been observing and talking about talk radio for 20 years. if you would like me to elaborate on how RW radio has been kicking liberal ass while getting a free speech free ride from those liberals i can elaborate.
'It was "stupid liberals" that instituted the restrictions that did exist and it's the "stupid liberals" that have been trying to get the cognitively challenged to see this problem for decades.'
- talk radio has been instrumental in the deregulation and stopping regulation. it's ALEC's most important tool- ignored. liberal activists, protestors, and the prog orgs have been wasting great amts of time and donations all because they let a few think tank-scripted blowhards yell over them.
and, for eg, if you are a student or are a college grad of one of the major universities it is likely that your school sports mascot is being rented to a major RW radio station to give it community cred and bring in ad dollars while it attacks teachers, unions, public ed, student loans, and leads the way in global warming denial. https://sites.google.com/site/universitiesforrushlimbaugh/
to continue to allow those unis to piss all over their mission statements without a whimper of protest is either stupid or ignorant.
pampango
(24,692 posts)may have been refuted by analysis and evidence."
Fear and emotion trump "analysis and evidence" with republicans. And, unfortunately, it works electorally much of the time.
certainot
(9,090 posts)over. music is so much more fun to think about anyway.
or maybe it's that definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over - ignoring RW radio - and expecting different results.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)It will be as if they learned nothing, remembered nothing of the last discussion.