If that isn't a perfect quote to describe "woo," I don't know what is. I'd hate to read one that did top it, I'd probably start to drool.

I've always been tolerant of pseudoscience for healthy hypochondriacs, they actually do feel a lift every time they take a vitamin pill or swig some homeopathic memory water.

It's just not for people who are legitimately sick.

Far too many woo supporters around here and they all fail to recognize the danger in the bullshit they spread.

on DU seem to be smart enough to know when to use what you call "woo," and when to see MD's.

Frankly, I am a skeptic, but I don't feel the need to post about it, or vilify people making personal choices concerning their health constantly.

This is just another thread for dopes that want to feel "smarter" than others- and that's it. It's also at least the 3rd thread that I have seen in the past 6 months with almost identical titles ("This is why I hate....fill in the blank with any alternative lifestyle choice) and the exact same posters piling in.

and clearly, as a skeptic, I know that.

However, this thread is just constantly reposted- the similarities are the use of the word "woo," and then consistently moves from "this is a public problem," to "DUers that use alternative medicine are stupid and dangerous."

Every.single.time.

Also interesting is that there is usually a personal story about "someone I know who died...."

Well, I have never met anyone that died from using alternative medicine, but I do know people who died from post surgical complications using traditional western medicine (our next door neighbor is one- less than three months ago following back surgery) so, using that logic, should I be terrified of surgeons, and refusing to ever go to a hospital?

Please, it's the same old garbage, ad nauseum.

I only post on these silly, ego stroking threads to let others know that there is a large group here on DU smart enough to know the difference between using homeopathy for a cold, and going to the doctor for serious symptoms.

Evidence doesn't matter, because they are medical geniuses, and they want everyone to know it.

Meanwhile, I don't get colds, because I use what the geniuses call "woo" to strengthen my immune system. The Woo Fighters apparently leave that up to big pharma's magic pills. Good luck with that.

But, since we became vegetarians, we haven't had colds every year. My wife had Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever a few years ago (and was smart enough to be at the doctors within one hour of spiking a fever- so, it was a mild case) and had to take antibiotics and advil (RMSP hurts- it's awful)-

Most of the vegetarians/ vegans we know are healthy- I am pretty sure that would be an interesting discussion too-- but, anytime anyone brings it up, it turns into a "you must luvvvvv PETA" hatefest.

most of the people i know you would call "woo fighters" and i would call rational, know that antibiotics don't work on the cold viruses.
They do get their Flu shots though, because, you know, science.

I have YET to read a "woo believer" here that "denies" ANY science, be it vaccines, or global warming.

As are the immune system strengthening effects of vitamin C, for instance.

What's your point?

Simply cannot believe that some people believe in vaccines, antibiotics when needed, chemo AND what they call "woo."

Inconceivable to them.

...if they do both. Promoting woo (no quotations here because that's exactly what it fucking is) is inherently dangerous and counter productive.

is that those who call it woo don't generally distinguish between the various types of CAM, some of which are safe and effective (as established in scientifically valid studies), some of which are safe with significant anecdotal support but which is not proven in scientifically valid studies, CAM which is unsafe, CAM which is useful as adjunct treatment - but which should not be used alone, CAM which is appropriate when traditional medicine has nothing to offer, and CAM which is pure junk.

I haven't seen anyone on DU assert that all CAM is safe and effective. The vast majority of responses on the other side are "woo" kills - or promoting "woo" is inherently dangerous and counterproductive.

There is a middle ground - looking at each treatment of substance individually and making a determination about whether to use it as part of a health care regimen based on the kinds of distinctions I've outlined above. Calling promoting woo inherently dangerous and counter productive does a disservice to individuals for whom CAM might be an effective and appropriate approach.

don't take antibiotics for colds, and the evil medical establishment doesn't recommend it either.

Mostly because they're educated enough to understand that it would be entirely non-efficacious to do so.

It builds up antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Plus, aren't colds a virus anyways? I don't think antibiotics would work for colds.

I also don't get colds, but I don't take anything. It doesn't mean that what you're taking works.

"DUers that use alternative medicine are stupid and dangerous."

Alternative medicine doesn't work. If they are proven to worked, they would be mainstream medicine. Modern hospitals use leaches when they reattach a finger, because leaches thin the blood when they drink. They do this better than drugs do.

"Well, I have never met anyone that died from using alternative medicine..."

Two points:

1.) Peter Sellers. Peter Sellers died because he refuse to get the medical treatment he needed and instead turned to alternative medicine. When he finally recognized Alternative Medicine wasn't working, it was too late. That's how alternative medicine kills.

2.) Most Alternative Medicines can't kill you directly, because they have ZERO affect on the human body. Specifically, homeopathy is water. That's it. It can't kill you (not unless you drink several liters at a time) because there's nothing in it.

"...a large group here on DU smart enough to know the difference between using homeopathy for a cold..."

Homeopathy is a con. If you use it, there are plenty of terms to describe you, but smart isn't one of them.

I also wrote that I do not know anyone that has died from it. Did you know Peter Sellers? I did not. If you did, you were lucky, he was great. However, I wrote that I DO know people (multiple) that have died following surgeries- one from a face lift.

I also wrote that I think the DUers here that do use alternative medicine have written that they go to the doctor when they feel it's warranted.

I am bitching because this thread--- like ALL the others-- are nothing but pile ons to a fairly large group of DUers-- calling them out without breaking the rules by using specific names.

Alternative Medicine kills by convincing people they don't need to go to the doctor. A lot of people die as a result of alternative medicine. Peter Sellers was one of them. You can't pretend this doesn't happen.

"However, I wrote that I DO know people (multiple) that have died following surgeries- one from a face lift."

Yes, surgeries are dangerous, which is why their effectiveness has to be confirmed with science. This is also why scientists work hard to make the surgeries safer and more effect.

None of this is true with alternative medicines. There is no testing to see if it works. There is no testing to see if it is safe. (You can stick anything in a herbal supplement pill and legally sell it.) When you defend alternative medicines, you defend con artists taking advantage of the sick.

"I am bitching because this thread--- like ALL the others-- are nothing but pile ons to a fairly large group of DUers-- calling them out without breaking the rules by using specific names."

That's because Alternative Medicine is right up there with Astrology. They are both pure bullshit. Would you run to be aid of people claiming astrology works?

I've started threads complaining about the pricing of prescription drugs, and they inevitability get hijacked by bullshit believers who think that fucking multivitamins are a substitute for Warfarin or other such bullshit.

wife and I don't use alternative medicines.

attacks but did not alter his behavior. His first set of heart attacks came after using amyl nitrate 'poppers' to enhance a sexual encounter.
I have never seen anything suggesting that his death resulted from anything but his own hard lifestyle. Oddly the things that might have prevented his untimely death were exercise, nutrition and not doing drugs and booze.

Anyone who uses homeopathy for anything is a fool. Homeopathy is the quackery to end all quackeries. Nobody with any belief in science would ever, ever, speak about homeopathy with anything but disdain.

Sid

I had a couple who darn near killed me, and have left me with lifelong health "issues." Out of ignorance, I grant you, but that doesn't mean I forgive it.

Even though, being unproven, the most it can do is not further kill you, just leave you untreated, but because you had a couple of crappy doctors, all evidence based medicine is bullshit?

I will say that in all cases skepticism is a good approach, as opposed to blind faith.

in the most general terms possible, HOW it works, and their response is mostly "it just works", I'm not even exaggerating, you can search for my username name and the keyword "works" in the google search bar and see the results. Or, they invoke some type of magic or say they don't know, that no one knows, that its beyond human comprehension.

I can, as a layman, with a simple Google search or trip to the library, can tell you how Tylenol works to relieve headaches, or what is done to remove a gall bladder, or how Warfarin prevents future heart attacks or strokes, or the same for aspirin even. This doesn't make me a doctor, it makes me informed, there's a difference, and just because I know the how, doesn't mean I can perform it myself.

Skepticism is fine, that's why evidence, clinical testing, and research are so damned important, but that's applying that dreaded thing...science.

ON EDIT: So tell me, which one of these requires faith?

what the f he's talking about. I think there are many things that western medicine excels at. I also think that not all practitioners are equal, that half of what they know is out of date 5-7 years after graduation, and that they may or may not have kept up.

I know that there are some things they suck at, as a group. Nutrition is hugely important in disease prevention, yet it is not required in any U.S. medical school (last time I checked) and is only offered in some.

I've had outstanding care in my life when it was a question of patching me up but I have also had way more than "a couple" of bad doctors whose short-sightedness, or narrow focus, or just plain ignorance caused me more problems down the road. It is the arrogance I object to, and the kind of laziness that leads a doctor to read to me from the latest Big Pharma missive.

Tell me, when acupuncture helps my dog with his back pain, is it woo that he's falling for?

Is it more effective than other methods you have tried? What other methods have you tried?

Also, you were talking about faith in evidence based medicine, not in individual doctors, so don't move the goal posts, there's a reason why people are encouraged to get second(or even third) opinions about things from other doctors.

You also seem to be under the impression that doctors seem to think, as a group, that nutrition isn't important, what planet are you from?

Also, you seem to object to the fact that some doctors don't keep up with the times, while you seem to think that acupuncture works based on nothing but faith, a practice that's been around for centuries, practically unchanged.

And maybe a paradigm shift.

with a little time and effort, figure shit out on their own, yet many people are frightened of this, its the democratization of knowledge acquisition, with checks for human fallibility put in, yet that is considered a weakness, and then they project their faith in "alternative methods" onto science.

Last edited Sun Jan 5, 2014, 05:19 PM - Edit history (1)

At least he is capering and prancing when he leaves, in stark contrast to the way he is moving when he arrives. It seems that his faith, or lack of it, is not an issue. And yeah, we tried other stuff, supplements (glucosamine, MSM, etc) that helped for a while, then wildly expensive pills that didn't do much, then acupuncture which has worked really well for much less money. Apparently my comment about acupuncture wasn't clear; I was trying to determine if you considered it "woo." IIRC, the AMA does.

Second, I don't presume to know what you were talking about but my statements were:

A) In my first post I said that doctors kill people too. To quote myself: " 'Woo kills.' So do doctors." As a native speaker of English, I think that indicates pretty clearly that doctors and woo "kill." I went on to talk about a couple of individual doctors who have done me great harm, albeit out of ignorance.

B) In my second post, I took you to task for jumping to the conclusion that I thought what a couple of doctors knew or don't know somehow made bullshit believable. You are still doing that, by the way. I advocated skepticism in all cases.

C) In my third post I pointed out the certain doctors and certain disciplines have been very helpful to me, and others far less so. No doubt I should have used the word "trust" instead of faith, mea culpa, but the fact remains that when you or I or anyone walks into a doctor's office we tend to believe that we will get good information and care, and that is not always the case.
As for the relationship between traditional acupuncture and western medicine, it seems to me that western medicine (in the U.S.) is always chasing the newest, latest (more expensive) thing, is frequently treating symptoms instead of causes, and almost never looks at the big picture. Acupuncture on the other hand is always looking at the big picture, and is aimed at keeping the body in balance--as a preventative measure. It may or may not work, nothing always does, but it seems to me the approach is much smarter. I wish modern medicine had a similar focus. (ETA: It apparently works to some extent or it wouldn't have lasted so long. After all, we no longer bleed people to get rid of evil humours, do we? BTW, are you aware that in China patients used to pay their doctors when they were well, not when they were sick...that would be a game-changer, wouldn't it?)
On a related topic, what planet are you on that you think doctors--whether or not they think it important--know squat about nutrition? Since they don't study it, how do you think they learn it? By osmosis?

Now where did I say I was talking about faith in evidence-based medicine, as opposed to individual doctors. Please show me. Exactly.

That's because serious sickness is statistically rare. In every age demographic, 5% of the people account for 50% of the health care costs of that demographic, and 15% for 85% of the costs. in any given year, half the population has no health care expenses at all. Getting more money from the relatively healthy 85% majority would be a real income boost.

It also makes it easier for us to determine whom to put on ignore. I can't, for the most part, as I'm a host to another group. Yet, as you say, it's been the usual septics and it sure does seem like a full-tilt "War on 'Woo'" lately. And yes, it's an ego boost to them. I'm glad we have safe havens around here

we go to (co-ops, etc)...they are usually pretty well educated (and I mean grad degrees), thoughtful, care about their health and look healthy and happy to us.

Like I said, other than vitamins- and my wife likes natural perfumes and aromatherapy stuff-- we do not use the other products, but if we did, we would have the sense to know when to go to the doctor. ALL of the DUers I have read that use "woo" seem to have that same attitude-

and yet, here's another thread calling them "dangerous."

at least in some things

I'm a vegetarian as well, and while I'll go to the doctor for my asthma problems, I do use some alternative treatments for other things. When it's really major (like the flu, bronchitis, dental issues) I go to a doctor. Even there, like with bronchitis I had several years ago, even the doctor couldn't cure it. Eventually I just gave up out of frustration and my body healed itself in about three weeks. Sometimes the human body is better at healing than the things we try using to help.

And yet, there you are, ranting on and on...

"This is just another thread for dopes that want to feel "smarter" than others" Irony...

Woo is dangerous. Maybe not directly to you, but to others who are not skeptics.

Woo, even seemingly harmless woo, perpetuates an idea that unproven "remedies" are somehow a viable option over science based medicine.

This isn't a discussion about rights, as you seem to be trying to make it

I have YET to meet, or see a "woo-er" on DU that can't recognize when it's time to go to the doctor. Yes, I know there are SOME people who die because they won't/ choose/ whatever use western medicine. I realize that.

There are SOME people who die after they use nothing but western medicine.

Why rake a group of DUers over the coals continuously-- what is the point of these ugly threads? nothing. zero. It's all just a faux superiority trip.

There seems to be more outspoken push-back against dumbass woo at DU than at any time I can remember. Certainly since DU3 went live and we lost moderators who actually knew what woo was, and shut it down at DU2.



Sid

is that many of those posters that believe in "woo" have been driven off by these threads- the others just put the posters on "ignore," and that's probably what I should do, but I am tired of these "call out" threads.

I have no problem with the woo-posters being "driven off" these threads. I'd be even more happy if they were "driven" out of GD completely.

Sid

Dare to stand up in favor of gun rights, then see just how "inclusive" so many fellow DU'ers are.

Woo is an area where I have no interest in being "inclusive." It's dangerous and deadly while offering absolutely nothing of value in return beyond a placebo effect at best.

You said it better than I could.



Sid

Being woken up at 5:00 after 4 hours of sleep by a screaming baby, then being unable to get back to sleep, doesn't always leave one in the best of moods i guess. lol

Is that your idea of civility?



Sid

he is in plenty of threads you have been missing. lol.

I despise woo and those who sell it. Sadly, I have a coworker (another chemist who has worked in biochem like me), but who believes in that crap. She's in her late 50s and has been out from work for about 6 weeks. She never told my group what was wrong with her and why she was getting surgery (it wasn't our business anyway), but I just learned last week that she had to get an ovarian cyst removed.

What troubles me is that this cyst had been bothering her for more than a year. She had been drinking special teas and taking herbs to treat it for at least 14 months. But it got worse and grew very large. Another coworker saw her a couple of weekends ago and said she looked terrible. Worse than before her surgery. She also doesn't believe in taking any pain medication (not even the occasional Tylenol or aspirin), which is fine except she takes other woo crap in its place.

As a scientist, she ought to know better. I feel bad for her, but I have never understood the draw of woo among certain coworkers. She has been trying to return to work for 3 weeks, but is not allowed to until her doctor gives her the OK. I hope she is properly taking care of herself these days, but I think she may still be using woo medicines (and I use that term loosely).

Woo purveyors need to go down and the public needs to do some more research. Sorry for the long rant, but this bullshit has me pissed.

Thanks for posting. I hope more people will take notice of this OP and read and study further. And don't even get me started on homeopathy.

And what many people label as "woo" are often old, natural medicines that are more effective and less prone to side-effects than the profit-generating pharmaceuticals developed to replace them.

Ignoring nature and instead believing everything corporations tell you to believe is incredibly dumb.

people had less disease and were cured so much faster.

If you actually read the literature on your so called "natural remedies", you would know they are largely ineffective and at times dangerous.

It comes out of the friggin' dirt for chrissakes.

Apparently The Woo Fighters believe it's bad for cancer patients to laugh.

but it shouldn't replace chemotherapy, as many woos would like you to believe.

Sid

believe that you are a mind reader, and know that "many woos" think pot replaces chemo.

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

you want the links? There are dozens of articles on dumbass woo alt-med cites promoting that idea.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=cannabis+instead+of+chemo&oq=cannabis+instead+o&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l3.7630j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8



Sid

But I certainly don't ignore the research showing that Cannabis shrinks tumors.

Do you? If so, can I ask why? Do you not believe the science?

but the woo community takes that very specific research and extrapolates it to OMG!! Cannabis cures cancer!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11701211

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023476066

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359311

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022821682


To pretend that alt-med woos aren't promoting the idea that cannabis cures cancer is to have your head buried in the sand.

Sid

I certainly don't ignore the fact that Cannabis shrinks tumors.

finds a way to warehouse happiness and laughter, withhold it from the market, drive up prices, thereby maximizing profits while delivering as little happiness and as few laughs as the market will bear.

If old, natural medicines were so great, how come people died so young back then? How come lifespans have shot up since modern medicine became so prevalent? If your "woo" worked, then why didn't it work back then?

"Yet Federally approved drugs sold by big-pharma kill MANY more people than woo."

Here's something you might not know. Arsenic is necessary for proper nerve development. If you had no arsenic in your diet, you would die. You need arsenic for nerve development. Ironically, too much will cause nerve damage and kill you.

(On a side note, don't take arsenic thinking it will make you healthy. According to one site I looked, you need 0.00001% arsenic, which is easy to get from tap water.)

That's how biology works. If something can have a positive impact on the body, then too much of it can harm you. You need Vitamin A to live. Too much can kill you. If you have thrombosis, a blood thinner can safe your life. Take too much of it, and it can kill you.

On the other hand, if you can't kill someone with an overdose of alternative medicine, then how can a normal dose have any effect on the body?

"Ignoring nature and instead believing everything corporations tell you to believe is incredibly dumb."

So is ignore modern science and relying on traditions.

Nobody knows how many are killed by woo. Furthermore the reason prescription drugs are available only by a doctor's orders are because they carry inherent known risks which are ferreted out during the lengthy testing phase. Doctors should be discussing those risks with their patients and the information about those risks are readily available from any pharmacy that dispenses those drugs.

Woo does not refer to valid natural remedies. Although aspirin has been synthesized for the past 100 years or so, it is derived from a natural remedy which has been available for thousands of years. People take natural remedies all the time which most certainly do work. This is not woo.

Woo refers to pseudoscientific bullshit with no basis in the world most call reality. Homeopathic "water memory" is quackery, and is an example of woo.

I do not practice homeopathy. I use natural medications, diet and exercise to remain healthy and pharmaceutical-free. Many on DU define that as woo. It's pathetic.

Diet and exercise are both routinely recommended by most bonafide doctors and have a proven benefit. This is not woo. However, I am not adverse to prescription remedies just as I am not adverse to natural ones. One just has to understand the risk vs benefit. Many natural remedies have their own set of risks. There is nothing inherent to natural substances which make them safer.

pharmaceutical-free? Both my mom, and my fiancee have it, and if they were to live your lifestyle, they would have ended up in homes or asylums, rather than being able to live in the real world, be stable(with work), and happy, truly happy. But you, you would rather they lived in 19th century sanitariums or some such bullshit, wouldn't you? Because they support that big evil BIG PHARMA, OMG!

Your loved ones should seek the advice of a doctor, and if your doctor can't help you should seek whatever will.

Honestly I'd rather you stop putting words into my mouth, "Humanist" activist.

I knew a guy from college that decided he didn't need the meds he had been taking for years and could cure himself "naturally". 6 months later he took his own life.

those who want...need quick and easy answers, and its so easy to be tempted by them, but the consequences can be so fucking real.

OMFG. Your clownish strawman only exists in your head.

One.

"woo" kills a higher percentage from neglecting proper treatment. Not so many from the treatments per se, but because "woo" displaces proper treatment. A sin of omission that is deadlier than the very low rate of pharmaceutical commission considering the huge volume of medicines consumed daily.

MEDICINE!

hell bent on discrediting altruistic alt-med practitioners, whose sole motivation is the betterment of humanity.



Sid

that every few weeks or month or so, the same posters post a thread making fun of many of our intelligent DUers that has driven several of them away simply because they disagree with what amounts to a lifestyle choice.

Obviously, there are problems with alternative medical users/ religions that limit healthcare access to children, and the court system has addressed that- so, while it's fun to shriek about that one, it's pretty much useless because society generally agrees.

I don't find these threads "fucking hilarious" at all- they are calling out DUers without using names-- and for what? Ego. NOTHING else. No other reason.

Please note that I have NEVER seen a "woo" believer start constant threads putting down people who only believe in western medicine every few weeks. I have seen some "I am superior because I excercise/don't smoke/am an atheist/ etc...." threads-- but, not over and over.

themselves that their participation in an internet message board conveys some status to them, and that it is a valid substitute for activism (or activity for that matter).

Look, what these asshats call "woo" saved me from the lifetime of misery and debilitation that so-called scientific medicine had relegated me to (and the wheelchair I would be in now if I'd listened to them), Those of us that do the work and find the talented healers, have and will continue to do well. The faith-based scientific community here will undoubtedly find themselves on the for-profit treadmill they love so much, and the too dim to help will continue to serve their purpose as well.

I just think of it as entertaining therapy for the socially unfit, that I can tune into for a few minutes at a time for a chuckle.

.. acupuncture was "woo". Anyone that still thinks that is a moron.

There are several other examples I could offer but I'm not really good and awake yet. the idea that something is "unscientific" because science is having difficulty understanding HOW it works is ludicrous.

I'm not sure because like I said, I'm in and out of here very quickly, but isn't acupuncture still "woo" among the serious crowd here?

There is limited evidence that the jabbing by acupuncture needles can result in endorphin release along with inconsistent relief from pain, but there is no evidence that this has anything to do with "chi" or with the mechanisms described by formal acupuncture. In fact, it is moronic to base a medical procedure on a mechanism that hasn't been shown to exist. That equally applies to chiropractic claims about subluxations and "the body's energy pathways" and the like, and certainly applies to such bullshit fantasies as Reiki and its ilk.

Further, claims that acupuncture can cure bacterial or viral infections are bullshit.


This argument could be ended once and for all if an advocate of these magical therapies could demonstrate that they are effective and that they work as described. This has never been done.

.... anyone can make any ridiculous claim, such as some post about chiropractic, which is absolutely your best first stop with a muscle-skeletal problem but not for anything else, just as acupuncture has jack shit to do with "chi' or infections. I know acupuncture works for some kinds of inflammation/pain issues because it has worked miracles for a close family member. So woo it is not.

And like some right-winger taking the comments of a communist and trying to paint all Democrats as believing that way, the anti-woo brigade are busy finding ludicrous examples and trying to act like the mainstream is there. It is not, but nice try.

I can go to the nearest chiropractor's office tomorrow and pick up a brochure espousing chiropractic's magical power to cure disease. That's not my opinion--it's literature distributed by the practitioners themselves. You can't simply write that off as "any ridiculous claim" when in fact it's a central marketing point of the industry.

... makes all kinds of claims far in excess of its ability to deliver so what's your point?

Really, I don't give two fucks whether you believe acupuncture works or not. 30 years ago Western Medicine Gurus said it was bunk and they were FUCKING DEAD WRONG. Just as they are FUCKING DEAD WRONG about lots of stuff right NOW.

So if you are upset at "woo" getting unearned credibility, might I suggest that a lot of that comes from the abject failure of Western Medicine to do anything other than peddle useless pharmaceuticals and dubious surgeries and a ridiculous cost.

In fact, they are legally forbidden from making claims you are talking about, want to reassess that?

And what useless medicines and surgeries are you talking about? The ones who have improved the lives of millions in the past 100 years or so, saved millions?

... of people who have had surgery that left them worse off than they were, especially back surgeries. Tell me how many people would get such a surgery knowing that they have a very high chance of being made worse.

My mother has had burst discs, and couple of slipped discs in her life, back surgery made her functional, if not cured her entirely, it greatly reduced her pain.

Also, surgeons are legally required to tell patients all the risks of surgery, so I don't know what you are complaining about. You seem to expect traditional medicine to be perfect, setting up impossible standards then using that to knock it down, despite the fact that it works for the vast majority of people who do use it.

[div class='excerpt"]Really, I don't give two fucks whether you believe acupuncture works or not. 30 years ago Western Medicine Gurus said it was bunk and they were FUCKING DEAD WRONG. Just as they are FUCKING DEAD WRONG about lots of stuff right NOW. What I "believe" is irrelevant, in the same way that what you "believe" is irrelevant. Let's see the evidence supporting your miraculous claims, and then we can discuss them. Until then, you're simply relying on testimonals and anecdote, exactly as alternative medicine and pseudoscience always do.

The others should be along shortly...

Please provide a list of threads and topics in which "the others" are permitted to post responses.

exposing yourselves here. Personally, I encourage it as I think it might be therapeutic and if not, it at least shows that even people who claim to form opinions based on science are as likely to be suckered as any other fantasist.

Long ago I pledged to stop using "woo" to refer to people who believe in alternative medicine and other pseudoscience. You are welcome to continue with the name-calling if you feel that it advances your argument.

It IS still woo, and anybody who thinks otherwise it's wilfully ignorant.

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-10-08/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-does-not-work-for-back-pain/

These posts on "woo" should be in the skepticism, science & pseudoscience forum instead of GD, IMO; but then the poster would not get as many responses.

Just. . . damn.

But it doesn't go the other way. Red blood cells do not eat bacteria and no amount of woo transforms bacteria into red blood cells.

Usually through its use rather than actual medical care, but not always.

Most of the ailments humans are subject to are self-limiting, and the body's natural systems take care of those things in time. Colds, the flu, and other mild illnesses run their course and the person recovers, whether they get medical care, woo, or simply do nothing.

However, there are other illnesses that need prompt medical attention. Purveyors of "supplement," alternative treatment "modalities" and other untested, unproven methods often promote their stuff using falsehoods. They know, as do most doctors, that most illnesses in otherwise healthy individuals will go away on their own.

On the other hand, as with a friend of mine in California, there are some huge risks involved with "alternative" health care. She had rheumatoid arthritis, which caused her great pain in her hands and elsewhere. RA is a tough, auto-immune disease, and treatments are only partly effective. But, the pain of RA often leads people to try almost anything to get relief. This woman, in her 30s, was not getting adequate relief through normal medical care. This was three decades ago, so some of the new medications for RA, which have potentially dangerous side effects, too, were not available at the time.

She had been seeing a naturopath, who also dabbled in acupuncture, herbal medicine, and other "modalities." What happened next was tragic and ended up with her bogus "health care practitioner" serving a prison sentence. She went to him and he decided that the best treatment for her RA in her hands was to inject Tea Tree Oil into her swollen, painful joints. Tea Tree Oil is often used, applied externally, for such things, with very modest results. But this poorly trained and dumb-as-a-stump naturopath, educated through mail order programs, decided that if it worked externally, it would surely work if he injected it into her joints.

My friend had to have her arm amputated at the elbow. Not only did the Tea Tree Oil cause massive tissue destruction in her hands, but the injection also caused a raging infection, probably due to non-sterile practices. She lost her arm. A year later, she committed suicide.

She trusted the practitioner, and trust is an important part of health care. He did not deserve her trust, and caused her great bodily harm, and may have contributed to her suicide. He served a term in prison, but I do not know what he did after that. It may well be that he's still out there practicing unregulated "health care" on other unsuspecting people.

Far too many untrained or poorly trained people are practicing "alternative" medicine out there. They dupe their "patients" by making them think they are getting some sort of skilled health care. They offer completely useless treatments like homeopathy, magnetic therapy, and other worthless "modalities." Sometimes, they do worse. Much worse. For people who don't really have a serious medical condition and who would recover with or without any treatment at all, they do no harm. For others, however, harm is done, either through incorrect health care or through ignoring a serious condition that requires real, evidence-based medical attention.

I'm a host in the Health Group here on DU. Woo is not a topic that is allowed there. Giving medical advice or asking for medical advice is not allowed there. It is a group that discusses real health information, reports on actual research, and provides news and information from reliable sources about healthcare and health issues. No woo.

but the fuchsia tinted ones gave me pneumonia.



Sid

I make note of the irony. Vague and undefined slang has no place in science which values precision and specificity in terminologies. 'Woo' is a made up word, which can mean anything the writer wishes it to mean, it is slang that has no accepted definition.

bullshit claims for bullshit "medicine&quot otherwise known as alternative medicine), judged on a sliding(and sometimes slippery) slope of bullshit.

The word "woo" has a fairly well accepted definition among the skeptical community. If the best you can do is to attack somebody for the use of that word, that's pathetic.