that doesn't give you any basis to spread conspiracy theories.

who would just love to try out their latest toys on somebody local.

Smirko n SCROTUS stealing Florida from Gore 5-4 sounds crazy, but it doesn't change what happened.

Like when Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy received anthrax in the mail just in time to help them decide not to block the Patriot Act. That right there is crazy too.

Are you alleging that Mike Connell's plane crash was caused by something other than his disorientation, as reported by the NTSB after the crash investigation.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20081223X12815&key=1

than average Joe.

what you have pointed out I'm am less inclined to buy into "official" reports.

either.

I remember when JFK Jr. crashed, two things struck me funny immediately. I was away from home and Faux News was on the TV. Very soon after the tragedy the Faux anchors repeatedly pushed the idea that JFK Jr. was an arrogant, cocky and unqualified pilot. At the present time, looking back, it seems like they were anxious to plant an explanation in peoples minds as soon as possible to shut down any other potential explanations.

I also found it odd that the FBI warned everyone to stay away from the beach because they were worried about souvenir hunters. I would have understood if they requested people to report any debris that was spotted to the authorities, but to tell them to stay away seemed odd.

At the time I did not follow politics very much, and had no knowledge of Faux News' propaganda tactics. My reaction was organic.

elected President. Not that he deserved to go right to the top like that, but the Rs would have been worried - he's have won easily even with no experience is my guess. He'd given a keynote address at a convention, a big sign for Democrats. Not that he had any interest in running for anything, apparently, but he could have had a lot of influence, fairly or not.

chances of getting into the WH, to say the least, if he had chosen to run.

I have also read about possible exposes that he might have been planning for George magazine. But I haven't really looked into it much.

Even without experience. Nobody else had the Kennedy mystique - the rest are cousins or many of the children of RFK and Teddy, but they'd never have it on the level of the only son of JFK. Dangerous to Republicans no matter what, and just getting to that age where he could be a factor against them.

It's too upsetting!

You know.

to fly their own planes or take private flights. Duh.

One of the most macabre things I have ever heard: someone told me that small planes are dubbed "doctor killers." Funny in a sick way.

You can buy a decent, flyable aircraft for around $10-15K. Joint ownership, club arrangements, and rentals are also options which significantly reduce the cost of infrequent flying.

He traded the first on in on the second one and had to sell that one in a divorce. It went for $12,000.

Admittedly $12,000 was a lot of money back then, but it wasn't out of reach for what was then middle to upper middle class.

I can tell you that the NTSB pretty much describes a textbook case of what not to do. I would never have even attempted the flight he took. I would have booked a commercial flight and sat in the back drinking coffee while the pros did the flying. It was stupid and he paid the ultimate price for his stupidity. My plane, like his, isn't equipped for flight into known icing conditions. SLD ice is bad shit. If he didn't know those conditions were possible, if not likely, he should have and even if lesser icing conditions are present this is not something you mess around with in a plane that isn't equipped for it, particularly so in a single engine piston aircraft that often lacks the power to climb out of icing conditions once the ice starts to accumulate. He also continued to push a bad approach which he should have opted to discontinue well before. NTSB reports like this one make great case studies for pilots because it tells us the sequence of events that happen when your own bad judgement turns you into a smoking crater.

if you wanted to close an investigation quickly, and discourage any further inquiries.

In order to believe the conspiracy you are implying, one would have to believe the tower controller (municipally contracted employee), the weather briefer (federally contracted employee), and numerous FAA and NTSB investigators (two different agencies one of which is represented by a union) were involved, not to mention the trouble one would have to go to in order to rig the plane in such a way to cause such an accident (that alone would be a pretty good trick). If someone wanted him dead it would be considerably easier to kick in his door, put a bullet in his head, and take some of his shit to make it appear like a robbery. Such a scenario would also cause far less suspicion from laymen who wouldn't understand how hard it would be to kill someone in a private aircraft under such a scenario.

on the matter. I think, regardless of the actual truth, people are likely to believe it if they are told "hey, small planes are a bit dangerous, and shit happens."

If someone gets a bullet in their head you can jump straight to square 2 in the investigation because it is a certainty that someone killed them. After finding a bullet in someone's head no one is going to believe it was from bad weather. And the longer the murderer is at large, the more speculation will emerge. So they will be in a hurry to pin it on someone. And on it goes. Very messy.

That's my opinion, but I understand your points.

In the case of small planes, both the FAA and the NTSB are highly involved in the investigation and because there are so few of them, it's a relatively small cadre of people who are doing it who are all familiar with each other in each area of responsibility. As I mentioned, you also have a lot of other people involved. You have the controller in the tower, with all the conversations recorded. You have the weather briefer who also is on a recorded line. You have the radar data which is recorded in a different facility (sometimes multiple facilities) from the tower and different people who are in control of that. Each and every aircraft accident is highly analyzed with a number of different data points and each segment of the investigation is recorded and analyzed. The conspiracy necessary to create such a thing would be enormous. Why go to all that trouble when you could just drown them in their bathtub and leave some drugs around or dozens of other ways which are far less trouble and involve far less people?

into different trash cans all over the building. And no one was held to account.

It might be tricky, but in my opinion, do-able by the right people.

LiveATC.net independently records the frequencies at CAK.
http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=CAK

They also archive the transmissions and anytime there's an accident pilots jump on LiveATC to listen to what happened. Anyone with a scanner can also be listening at any given moment (and lots of people do).

I'd also be very surprised if controllers aren't reading the NTSB reports for planes they worked, and when the report doesn't jive with what they remembered there would be an awful lot of explaining to do by someone.

There is this from an interesting article provided by RAW STORY:
According to the incident report prepared by the state highway patrol and examined by Raw Story on site, Sgt. Leo Shirkey was the first law enforcement officer on the scene at 6:22. Off duty Post Commander Lt. Eric Sheppard and Trooper McCarthy, a plain-clothed investigator from the Canton Post, arrived within an hour.
The incident report lists the Stark County Examiner Harry Campbell as arriving at 7:03 PM to collect the body.
An FAA Aviation Safety Inspector arrived at the scene several hours later, and a clean up crew worked through the night to prepare the plane for transport and storage.
By midnight that evening the site had been cleared and by sunrise the wreckage had been moved to a hanger at Akron-Fulton airport.
Despite this notable efficiency in cleaning up the plane wreckage, widow Heather Connell reported that, to her horror, she found body parts of her husband at the crash scene six days later. She told an interviewer "How is that a proper investigation? How is that acceptable? How dare they leave pieces of my husband lying there!”

http://nomadicpolitics.blogspot.com/2012/02/republican-faust-rise-and-fall-of-mike_21.html

you are presenting yourself as someone that knows a lot about these investigations so i asked you if what his widow describes is standard...is it?

I'm sure they are concerned with things like medical examiner reports, toxicology tests, and things related to the accident, but they aren't the ones going out and picking up eyeballs and brain matter. That's going to be done by the state and local folks and should be done in a manner so as to not disturb the integrity of the physical crash evidence. I don't have a copy of their game plan. I've just looked at a few hundred NTSB reports over the years.

you do not know if that is standard?

You have federal and local authorities working together each with their own budgets and command structures which are going to dictate any overtime pay involved after normal business hours. Sometimes weather conditions dictate their schedule. Sometimes the crash location dictates their schedule. I'm sure there are other variables that dictate their schedule. Put up some generator powered lights and there's no reason they couldn't work in the dark. Road construction crews do it all the time and sometimes police investigate auto accidents after dark, so it's not as if those resources aren't available locally. The accident happened after sunset, so I can't really see them leaving the body there overnight although they may have. Even if they did they would have had to secure the scene so wildlife and people don't start carrying things off.

Won't stop our resident CTers, some of whom find crop circles "unexplainable."

there is no election fraud or theft on the local or national level by people like Rove or any other twerp with powerful connections and Napoleon complexes. No political intrigues for power grabs and NO murders or imprisonment to shut people up and down. Right? Ok. You are not fooling me. This country's political system is just as corrupt and dangerous as any political system in any country in all political history. Period.

I ran into icing once in a C-150. I would fly into a cloud, the Ice would form, I could see it forming on the tires, The the wings would lose lift and the altitude plummet. Once in clear air, the ice would evaporate, and normal flight resume. If it had been overcast, I would have been dead meat. It only took a couple of minutes to go from normal to ass pucker and back again.

Don't get on Karl Rove's bad side.

But I see him as more of a lesser demon rather than one who has the power to change weather conditions.

Rove doesn't control weather.

Rove just had a few people MURDERED, that's all.


Unlike manipulating weather, murder is no big deal.

In the Wellstone crash I remember someone said a mobile EMP device was used. I thought that was a pretty good explanation, but I'm not sure it would work so great with a magneto fired piston aircraft with cable controls.

his biggest enemies keep dying,
is a bit much for me.

I say, Rove makes his own luck.

You honestly believe Karl Rove has never had anyone killed?

I just want to know how he pulled this one off. I mean there had to be some kind of James Bond shit going on. Aren't you curious?

...going to the Dark Side for an assassination could be a matter of a single word in a conversation.

Cui bono, baby!

Sometimes kneejerk skepticism is as misleading as kneejerk credulity -- and there are still unanswered questions about the convenient timing of Connell's death. But leaving that aside, the deeper point is that Schuler had made himself a nuisance to Rove on endless occasions.

A google search on "karl rove" site:legalschnauzer.blogspot.com turns up a huge number of hits, going back to at least 2008 and covering a broad range of allegations. Would Rove -- who has a house in the Florida Panhandle and close ties to the Alabama GOP establishment -- love to see Legal Schnauzer put out of commission? Undoubtedly. Is he behind Schuler's current legal entanglements? Unprovable but not out of the range of possibility.

The Connell story might not be the best end to grab this by. I would have gone with Jill Simpson, or even Ali Akbar. But the general question is definitely worth asking.

and there are still unanswered questions about the convenient timing of Connell's death.

There is this from an interesting article provided by RAW STORY:
According to the incident report prepared by the state highway patrol and examined by Raw Story on site, Sgt. Leo Shirkey was the first law enforcement officer on the scene at 6:22. Off duty Post Commander Lt. Eric Sheppard and Trooper McCarthy, a plain-clothed investigator from the Canton Post, arrived within an hour.
The incident report lists the Stark County Examiner Harry Campbell as arriving at 7:03 PM to collect the body.
An FAA Aviation Safety Inspector arrived at the scene several hours later, and a clean up crew worked through the night to prepare the plane for transport and storage.
By midnight that evening the site had been cleared and by sunrise the wreckage had been moved to a hanger at Akron-Fulton airport.
Despite this notable efficiency in cleaning up the plane wreckage, widow Heather Connell reported that, to her horror, she found body parts of her husband at the crash scene six days later. She told an interviewer "How is that a proper investigation? How is that acceptable? How dare they leave pieces of my husband lying there!”

http://nomadicpolitics.blogspot.com/2012/02/republican-faust-rise-and-fall-of-mike_21.html



The reporter's notes Hence took while investigating the crash events are very interesting indeed. Of particular interest is his observation of military personnel at the crash.

Hence was curious to learn more about two soldiers in green uniforms who were at the crash site and, in fact, climbing through the wreckage that night and filmed on local television news coverage. He was interested to know why the official police report, detailed in every other way, had failed to mention the pair.

Hence was told that it was not uncommon for the the CAP to be used in search and rescue. According the highway patrol officer that Hence spoke to, the pair had arrived, offered help and were quickly turned away. When shown stills of the soldiers climbing through the plane wreckage, the officer back peddled on his original statement and told the reporter the pair were asked to help locate the electronic tracking device.
The local deputy sheriff in the area, also a Civil Air Patrol captain and Public Affairs Officer for nearby squadron, told Hence that he was not aware of any CAP involvement. He offered a few names of people it might have been. The highway patrol had not asked for credentials of the soldiers on the night of the crash.

Two important facts: Connell was threatened before his plane crashed. Shuler wrote about it.

Why do you imply something I didn't write?

Say "Saddam" and "9/11" together often enough, and people will believe they're related.

Sid

Karl Rove had Mike Connell killed.





Karl Rove had Mike Connell killed.







Mike Connell's death was orchestrated by Karl Rove, who benefited from Connell's death.


Water is wet.

Fire is hot.

2+2=4

Generally, it rains in Indianapolis in the summertime.

BradBlog Michael Collins is TOPS -- a great reporter and a great DUer.

Rove Threatened GOP IT Guru If He Does Not 'Take the Fall' for Election Fraud in Ohio, Says Attorney

for your never ending search for truth!

be on that plane with Wellstone, and at the last minute, Kennedy decided to go somewhere else instead.

That would make it just a tad more suspicious.

extremely suspicious ... and the more DUers investigated, the worse it looked.

Both pilots were notably incompetent. They got too slow on approach, stalled the aircraft, and augered in. Happens all the time even when Senators aren't sitting in the back. It happened just a few months ago in San Fransisco with a scheduled major airline flight and that plane wasn't even in the soup like Wellstone's was.

The Nation wrote that a few months before that awful day:

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0510-04.htm

I remember on DU we noted how Wolf Blitzer zeroed in on weather, despite what his reporter on scene was saying. It sounded like Wolf wanted to make certain CNN was on the side of "accidents happen" from the first day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3931991

Holy crap!! Karl Rove even hates professional golfers!!

Just how deep does the conspiracy go?

Sid

Is that confirmable?



If so, that would be most profound.

Well, take away daddy's money/influence and that's what you've got.

In younger days.

to the point he was arrested and became a political prisoner.
https://www.youtube.com/user/rshuler3156/videos

before the economy hit the fan.

I have met dozens of private pilots, and only one owned his own luxury jet. The others were just flying enthusiasts who used rentals or borrowed crafts.

And then maybe we can try to see the connections not mentioned??

Click on "Mike Connell" or "RogerShuler."

Next time it will read, "click here."

So, what is the story here? You are fishing for connections?

Second, I want people to know about Shuler and his story.

Third, there are other treasons to bring them up.

BTFW: I didn't know there was a statute of limitations on what I can post.

defamatory blogging and to remove defamatory material from his blog

Shuler had claimed local attorney Robert Riley had an extramarital affair; Riley sued and also sought (and obtained) a preliminary injunction from, from the county court for removal of the material

Unfortunately, it's somewhat difficult to piece together exactly what's up here, in part because Shuler is batshit crazy. The injunction says that when served with notice of the preliminary hearing, the respondents simply tossed the papers out their car window, did not retrieve the papers, and did not attend the preliminary hearing. After being arrested later for violating the resulting injunction, Shuler was charged also with resisting arrest in association with that -- and told the court he had no attorney and did not wish the court to appoint an attorney. All the evidence suggests that there are lawyers willing to help him -- David Gespass, past president of the National Lawyer's Guild, for example, visited him in jail -- but Shuler distrusts lawyers and prefers to represent himself: thus (IIRC) when served with notice of the permanent injunction hearing, Shuler simply whined that he couldn't attend the hearing because he was in jail, a matter which any competent attorney might have resolved for him in any of several possible ways

Common sense suggests that anyone, who decides to spread scurrilous sexual rumors about a well-connected local lawyer, should expect to face a lawsuit. Of course, under American law, truth is an absolute defense against a defamation action -- but to prevail you have to actually prove in court that what you're saying is true: you can't just declare it's true and adopt the stance the court should go fuck itself. Not even bothering to appear for hearings is a time-tested sure-fire way to lose the case. And pretty much everyone -- except perhaps Roger Shuler -- has at least heard the well-known adage regarding self-representation in court cases

Whenever someone stands up to the BFEE, zappaman is there to remind everyone of the opposite.

What you wrote about one of the few DEMOCRATS in Alabama brave enough to take on the GOP:

Unfortunately, it's somewhat difficult to piece together exactly what's up here, in part because Shuler is batshit crazy.

Damn you Karl Rove!
Who do you think he was after?

Red herring, canard, etc etc

And it must be asked...









Thankfully, it's not up to you or me.


Maybe a Grand Jury could help?

cui bono.



I mean, DUH.

Shuler reported on threats BEFORE the plane crash, like a dated link to his blog?

the threat and reporting of it is well documented

from the link i posted at # 6

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 10:51 AM
To: AskDOJ@usdoj.gov
Subject: Report of Rove threats against witness Michael Connell
Dear Attorney General Mukasey:

We have been confidentially informed by a source we believe to be credible that Karl Rove has threatened Michael Connell, a principal witness we have identified in our King Lincoln case in federal court in Columbus, Ohio, that if he does not agree to "take the fall" for election fraud in Ohio, his wife Heather will be prosecuted for supposed lobby law violations.This appears to be in response to our designation of Rove as the principal perpetrator in the Ohio Corrupt Practices Act/RICO claim with respect to which we issued document hold notices last Thursday to you and to the US Chamber of Commerce Institute for Legal Reform. See: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6189 and http://www.archive.org/d...tionFraudInOhioCourtCase.

I have informed court chambers and am in the process of informing the Ohio Attorney General's and US Attorney's offices in Columbus for the purpose, among other things, of seeking protection for Mr. Connell and his family from this reported attempt to intimidate a witness.

Concurrently herewith, I am informing Mr. Conyers and Mr. Kucinich in connection with their Congressional oversight responsibilities related to these matters.

Because of the serious engagement in this matter that began in 2000 of the Ohio Statehouse Press Corps, 60 Minutes, the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, C-Span and Jim VandeHei, and the public's right to know of gross attempts to subvert the rule of law, I am forwarding this information to them, as well.

K&R!

in a plane not equipped with deicing equipment.