...makes the ineffective better, or makes quackery into viable treatment or care? They are entirely separate issues. Magical thinking is just magical thinking, and access to effective health care should be a universal human right. But denying that access doesn't change the nature of magical thinking. It's still woo.

It sucks. And, I'm glad you thought the thought I was hoping you'd think.

then it didn't happen in the first place. Or maybe it's explained to them, but they don't like the explanation. "There are more things in heaven and earth....."

Simply because a rational explanation isn't apparent doesn't mean there isn't one. You're promoting a version of the "god of the gaps" argument and nothing more.

Quantum theory is a good example. It doesn't really make sense, at least with the logic we usually apply to explain things, but it seems to be accurate from what we know so far.

Too many people dismiss things because they can't explain them. Sure, there are a lot of people out there who use trickery to make a living off of others, and some are simply incompetent. But plenty of them are helping people, too, and it's not necessarily all in their patients' heads. Besides, even if the problem with a patient is psychological, it's still very real to them. Maybe it should be explored why some of these cures work to pacify their psychological needs.

All I'm saying is that our knowledge and even the reason we apply to explain things isn't complete. It really isn't rational to say something is woo when the tools you have to measure and explain it aren't complete or adequate.

Never mind that not a one of them accurately understand the simplest elements of quantum theory or could explain just how it supposedly relates to their nonsense.

I know more about it than most people do. My post had nothing to do with the mechanics of quantum theory. I was giving an example of things we don't fully understand, period. That's the extent of the comparison and I see nothing wrong with that.

and more about the general world of alternative crackpottery, which has undertaken to profoundly abuse that word in the last few years. No offense meant.

It's something we don't fully understand. We don't understand why some cures work, either, but it's apparent that some of them do. They can be compared on a superficial level for a simple discussion like this. There's nothing sacrosanct about quantum theory.

But we just don't understand and therefore dismiss? Sorry, but no. Show me one that beats out placebo in a double blind control study and we can talk.

and they say they're better. Maybe some of their problems were psychological, but I don't think all of them were. The point is, some people dismiss things out of hand because they don't have full knowledge of it and it doesn't make sense to them on its face. Just because a study hasn't been done about something doesn't mean it doesn't work. It's unreasonable to assume that when you don't even have full knowledge about it.

Beyond the aforementioned placebo affect. Your anecdotes are not hard data.

But in the meantime, people are going to try different things and some of them either will be helped. Some also won't be helped. I've been on various medications through the years. Some of them haven't done shit for me but have made a big difference in the lives of others. Chiropractors have never done anything for me, but I've known people with sinus trouble, for instance, who have gotten instant relief when visiting a chiropractor.

People have lots of problems, real and psychological (which are also very real to them). Some of them aren't helped by certified doctors but they're helped by alternative medicine. They can't all be wrong. Studies will be done on some of those cures in the future and it will be proven exactly why they work, and the answer might surprise us. Time will tell. People should be open-minded but cautious about these things.

I'm not saying they are for a fact (as I'm sure there are a few that haven't been studied as thoroughly) but, they indeed can all be wrong. I think you underestimate just how much research has in fact been done on most of these.

Some people have an ailment and they've either tried going to a doctor or they can't afford going to a doctor so they try one of these cures. Some will feel better after they go (and 'feeling better' really can't be measured) and they tell a friend and the friend goes to see the acupuncturist or chiropractor or whatever.

People have been trying all these things for a very long time and stories pass by word of mouth about the effectiveness of these various cures. A lot of these people are thoroughly convinced that they're being helped, because they keep spending money to go back to these practitioners.

How can you or I tell these people that they aren't being helped and they need to quit wasting their money when they tell us that they feel 10x better than they felt before and they can do all the things they couldn't before? We can't, because they firmly believe they are cured, or at least they're much better, and if they perceive that they're better, then that perception = reality.

This is actually a discussion about what's real and what isn't. You don't want to believe people are being helped unless you have a study that tells you they are. I'll take their word for it, because reality is essentially what we believe to be true.

I think we're at an impasse here. Studies are well and good to help us understand the world, but they don't explain everything, especially when it comes to perceptions. Just because a study can't explain it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work. It might be an indication of that, but it doesn't determine it. Sometimes we have to look deeper.

Unfortunately, I've pointed to CAM which beats out placebos in double blind control studies, and the discussion on DU still stays at the level of "woo" kills.

I don't believe I have ever encountered anyone on DU who insists that all CAM is safe or efffective. On the other hand, I have encountered far too many people who make the blanket statement that "woo" kills, or "alternative medicine" kills - without any acknowledgement that CAM is as varied (or more) than traditional medicine - and that the use of some of it is supported by scientifically valid research.

Ignore them. They are saboteurs.

I just think it's bone-headed to say something doesn't work when nobody has fully explored what is being discussed.

End of story.

I wish no one would ever have to make a choice like this

I wish the same.

Hopefully ... we will eventually see healthcare (not health insurance) viewed as a basic human right

is better than nothing at all. It's my impression that much of what medical science did a couple of hundred years ago fell pretty much under that category, until the scientific method was discovered.

You make a good point, if people had accessible, affordable science, the peddlers of woo wouldn't have so many customers.

I trust my physician over some quack in a vitamins shack.

front $250 office visit and Remicaid treatments are $3500. I'm happy that your physician was so nice to you though.

One of the perks of being a student, I guess.

Even the clinics around here wanted $150. I paid that and was referred to a rheumatologist (which I knew was going to happen) and they wanted $250 at the counter.

Hopefully the times are changing.

I got mine on Thursday. I get both medical and dental. I can finally visit the dentist! It's been what...five years since I've seen one.

For some reason, a lot of hygienists think they can be mean to those who have not had a cleaning in 6 months. And then there are those who are so very kind.

I had to pay out of pocket, but my last visit to a dentist was amazing. They were so kind and didn't give me one bit of grief.

it's been 30 years since I've been to a dentist. No problems, knock on wood. No toothaches, no sensitivities, etc. So far, so good.

I clean my own teeth - I have dental scraping tools for plaque removal. And I brush like I'm supposed to.

Can't get the science if you don't got the cash.

Happy New Year progressoid.

I was in that same place a few years ago. If you can't afford to go to the Doctor, you look for any port in a storm.

I'm very happy that you are getting that card.

I sit firmly in the middle of the newest DU debate, *woo wars*

It's weird, to be honest.

Happy new Year!

She has been battling brain cancer for four years, and we have traveled across the country to get the best treatment that is available. We see some really great doctors, but that's not enough.

This is a terminal illness, and it's important to her to feel like she's in charge, and battling the disease on all fronts. So even WITH science at our disposal, woo is a comfort to her, and seems to greatly improve her sense of well being.

I don't know if her reiki sessions will add a day to her life, but if it makes her feel better emotionally, it is well worth pursuing.

My step father was recently diagnosed with cancer. He drinks an excessive amount of diet soft drinks, and my wife has been trying to get him to stop. Now that he has cancer, he promised to stop drinking them, but only if his doctor agreed with my wife's opinion that it was harmful.

Well, just as my wife predicted, the doctor told him that he could continue to drink diet soda, and there was no harm in it. He even went on to say that the product wouldn't be sold in stores if it wasn't safe.

We were floored by this. Cigarettes are sold in stores! So while I have faith in science, I have learned many times in recent years that it's not a good idea to put too much faith in doctors.

Stopped all diet soda once she was diagnosed because one of her other friend's symptoms abated and went into remission when she stopped.

But that is just her. She continues to have a daily mountain dew full of hfcs. Bleck. Oh, well, she has excellent heath care and the latest drug at her disposal. She exercises with a trainer 3x a week.

Especially since one person has a different sense of what is an illness or pain than another person might be. But the caveat is that there is not much of an issue to begin with, and that the person isn't going whole hog into "it's natural, so it's all good" belief system that many hucksters pitching woo for profit.

Look, exercise, vitamins and specific dietary supplementation (a change of balance in the intake or citrus, leafy greens, garlic, fats, sugars, meat) are not really "woo" when used in a balanced manner to the healthy average person who doesn't have access to a good diet that includes fresh healthy food and regular doctor's visits. They are also not "woo" to a person who's condition or disease creates a lack or excess of a critical mineral in the body but is otherwise fairly fine (like coping with stress, pregnancy or during the recovery period from an injury or illness). A guy with kidney issues who needs to take a diuretic also may need a potassium supplement in his diet. A pregnant woman usually (not always) needs additional iron, calcium, vitamins A , D, and folic acid in the first trimester of her pregnancy.
I have a couple co-workers who, after getting a diagnosis of a condition and getting treated for it, now do the "no gluten/green tea" or "paleo-diet" that also do cross-fit, swim regularly, and see their doctors regularly for the conditions they have. Is it the diet, or the exercise, or the regular doctor's visits and monitoring of their body condition that is keeping them healthy as they age? Those co-workers will say it's their diet that "fixed" their condition, but the truth is that they went through a modern medical procedure to fix the problem, then have their doctors monitoring them and are now following good habits to keep the original condition at bay.

However, depending on a type of diet or supplement to "cure what ails ya" without real medical monitoring as a cure-all or medicine is Woo. It is not "holistic", it is dangerous as any other self-diagnosis can be.

Supplementals are supposed to "supplement" a medical process or make up for a specific lack - they're not going to cure. They can make you feel better, and if you don't have the instruments or tests to actually see what's going on, the appearance that you are being healed is purely subjective. That's where the woo comes in.
Y'know, when you're slowly dying of undiagnosed testicular cancer and genetic high cholesterol, but you're feeling better because your endorphins are being triggered through your brand new modified paleo-diet that is being promoted for testicular health, the protein supplements, and your new routine at the gym.
If you depend on your diet, exercise, and herbal products made Gawd-Knows-Where under questionable conditions that some homeopathic/paleo-vegan/"born-again Navajo Shaman"/private practice M.D. is hawking on the internet along with his/her newest "Wanna Feel Like You're 21 Forever" book which contains:
A 40 page psuedo-scientific (i.e. mash of his/her old college Botany 243 and Human Biology 324 notes checked against WebMD and the EU's naturopathic Medical Guide) hypothesis combined with,
the pilfered diary and formulary from their ex's Missouri midwife great-granny's home remedies,
a Punjabi Vegan cookbook from the 1960's, and,
a mix of Irish, "Sioux" and Basque folklore, bio-feedback, Tai-Chi, and New Age Mysticism...
...Well, you're not getting better, no matter how special and "better than modern medicine" the "treatment" seems to be. You have slipped into the Woo Zone. You will still die of either your testicular cancer or of problems brought on by your cholesterol, and it will be far sooner and the end would be more painful than if you had gotten to a responsible doctor with access to real equipment and treatment options in time to catch your condition and get it stabilized and regulated.

True, you could take a risk that you will be one of the 1 in 100,000 or so that might be stuck with a quack (like the one who wrote the "Wanna Feel Like You're 21 Forever" book, only with hospital privileges) or your insurance/health provider service will f* you over for profit, but Woo is far worse for someone who really has a problem than going to a doctor regularly is for someone who is pretty much healthy and doesn't need any medical assistance to remain so.

If you're healthy already, you can potentially maintain with judicious use of granny remedies, folk medicine, and good habits. Yes, I had a great X 3 midwife granny, who's diary and formulary are in a college archive somewhere and I've got copies that were passed down of some of her formulary; most of her remedies came down to a healthy, balanced diet, good hygiene habits, and basic herbalism for simple conditions and mild chronic ailments. But anything that would normally put people in the hospital - requiring surgery or long-term critical care, her remedies were all palliative, not curative.
The other thing to point out is that she was very careful to note that all of her herbs and other components, her tinctures and oils, her wines and syrups and salves, were grown or collected by her, and there were specific conditions that her components needed to be at before she would use them.
She didn't go down to the Walgreens, Trader Joes, or WalMart to get some "Naturella" brand St. Johns Wort capsules or Evening Primrose Oil - which could just as easily be processed in China from the stems, twigs, and sawdust at the bottom of the barrel using minimally filtered drain water and glycerin from factory hog hooves falsely labled as "vegan", because the supplemental market is unregulated.
G-G-G-Granny carefully went into the local fields or in her garden and picked and prepared those herbs and seeds to make her compounds herself. It was on her to insure the quality of her components, and even a difference of how much it rained the week prior or a few degrees in temperature or soil contamination could drastically affect the way her medicine worked - and she knew it. She watched helplessly sometimes as patients didn't get better, because it was a rainy or dry spring, or someone had dumped their still leavings and adversely affected the soil around the area she picked her field ginseng or Queen Anne's Lace that year.

So as much as I respect what she did at the time and her successes, trying to claim medicine of her day is better than modern medicine and using it beyond what it was intended to be used for is frankly Woo. It's "good in a pinch", but it's limited in the benefits it can actually bring.
An honest doctor recognizes and focuses on the points between when supplements and alternative procedures can help, and when they're just placebos to help the patient feel better while they're going through another treatment - or if they should be getting different treatment.
It's dangerous, dissembling and disturbing for a doctor to foist off the placebo effect as the "major component" of the treatment.

Just my two bits. (This was a bit more than 2 cents)

Haele