That impacts women negatively is part of a gender war and should't be discussed? Online harassment, like street harassment, is a fact of life for a lot of women. But some men think we shouldn't ever discuss it or we are waging gender wars.

Reminds me of the "class warfare" charge republicans always seem to throw out there whenever issues of poverty and economic justice are brought up by people looking for solutions. And about just as honest.

trashing a thread as opposed to just trashing a thread are trolling for attention,don't give it to them.

I constantly hear people say things like the feminists here are okay, but some go too far. But nothing can get discussed without it causing a "war". So what do they even mean?

Curious, that.

I'm usually pretty skeptical of just how supportive anyone could really be when they say things like that. And there doesn't seem to be an equal disdain for the sexism. So much handwringing over these "wars" but no one bats an eye over some of the truly awful posts in them. I wish I heard a lot more "Some of the sexist jerks at DU! Geeze!"

I'm talking about groups of individuals who are pretty upfront about their political beliefs and repeat them in many discussions on DU. As an example, how often do you see posts where someone writes "I agree with most guns rights advocates but some take it too far?" I don't recall every seeing that sort of qualification on that issue or on a bunch of other highly contested issues. It may have happened on rare occasion but when it comes to feminists it's become common, as if the message is being managed.

eta: the only other issues where I recall similar qualifications are pro-choice, women's rights, and LGBT rights defenses --always related to women and gender equality.

That seems to be something reserved specifically for feminists.

instead of just trashing?

sure says a whole lot tho.

jezus it's fucking toxic here lately.

Announcing that you're trashing a thread is simply bullying to those involved in the topic.

"This thread is trash to me." Going and saying that "out loud" and then walking away from it is certainly not civilized discourse.

It also comes across as superior than thou crap as well.

which makes it kinda funny in addition to being passive-aggressive

Charlie Sheen trashes hotel rooms.

I imagine there are many people who petulantly inform any and all of those things they dispose of... and rationalize it to themselves as a contribution.

an opinion like anyone else. Just like there are people that insist on placing their holier-than-thou judgment on others for daring to have an opinion that's not in line with theirs.

harm to women. As you would have observed had you read past the opening sentence.

It only took on the gender wars dynamic when you decided to troll it by calling it a "gender wars" post, due to your hostility towards any discussion of online sexism and misogyny.

You're at 11 posts and counting, btw.

At least thats how I read the exposition sentence.

If there's a "this stuff is actually okay" side to that article, I have yet to see anyone articulate it (though the behavior of some implies their viewpoint to that end).

I actually read that first sentence and decided I didnt want to read the OP. I was afraid it. would turn into more gender warfare. I'll take a look after all. Thx

announcing that you're going to trash a thread or dramatically announcing that you're going to trash a thread that you really have no intention of trashing.

That's too funny!

The fact that you read something like that and automatically discount it says more about you than it does about the OP.

Bryant

Heaven forbid I don't bother to contribute to your gender wars. Thanks for making the point about these threads.

this thread,

related objectification and harassment of womeon online is a problem.

Per site rules, you are obviously allowed to disagree with those sentiments.

You all are so desperate to have an enemy

Have to engender that "us vs them" meme

weird to me - I have no one I consider an enemy. If someone, like you or Bonobo want to declare me their enemy that is OK with me - it is odd, but meaningless.

complement. Amazing how you try to turn what I said about "enemies" around to suit yourself.

To attack me out of the blue like that for no reason.

Unsolicited attacks on me. The one you linked to was for me daring to post a rather feminist-positive video in the Feminism forum.

And the one on this thread is most certainly an attack as it is done with the intention of labeling me as an anti-feminist.

An apology would be more appropriate than a continuing sneak attack.

rape you asked him:

Bonobo (22,648 posts)
14. Do you think the rapist became a rapist because of watching rape porn?

Or do you think that maybe they watched (if they did) rape porn because they were already predisposed to rape?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024144944#post14

There is no need for me to apologize for calling you out on this. I brought in up in your FG thread because you posted the FG thread the same day as the above post - as if your egregious comments could be neutralized by posting a pro-Feminist article. Yes, it pissed me off.

If anyone should apologize it should be you for the post above.

On edit: I don't know what you are talking about with the anti-feminist labeling - which I did not do. Both you and Katashi (or whatever his name is) have some weird theory about me having enemies/needing enemies - you are the only 2 who have said it to me and that's why you were lumped together.

I wasn't even involved in this thread and you have now, in 3 posts, made a personal vendetta against me for no reason.

You are just showing that you have no class.

participating. Not really sure how this works - I guess you are all full of class and I am not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=11902
Bonobo (22,654 posts)
27. No kidding.

Last edited Mon Dec 9, 2013, 09:32 AM - Edit history (2)
I posted a video with a strong Feminist message in the Feminist Group and was greeted with:




http://www.democraticunderground.com/113910612#post3

That is classless and not admitting it is even more so.

I'm not mad though, I'm done.

Class act down the line.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
At Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:48 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Bonobo there is no way in hell you are getting an apology from me. In Prism's thread about his
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4295643

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Direct calling out of a specific DU member who has not even posted in this thread. If this doesn't violate the TOS, what does?!

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:56 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Sorry, this one was well-deserved. Not buying the "who me??" act. Seen him in action. Leave it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The "callout" as you name it is calling out Bonobo, who seaglass is replying to. This in no way violates TOS, replying to someone with a link to a prior post.

What violates TOS is
Don't be a wingnut (right-wing or extreme-fringe)
Vote for Democrats.No bigoted hate speech
Don't go overboard with the crazy talk
on't willfully and habitually infringe on others' copyrights
Don't threaten anyone (including yourself)
Respect people's privacy
Don't post "shock content" or porn
No spammers
Don't do anything illegal
Don't post malicious code or mess with the software
Don't do anything else which is similarly disruptive
One more thing: Don't push your luck


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

because I don't read all the threads in which people like you congregate.

I thank geek tragedy for making your nature public. GT's credibility is intact. Yours, not so much.

(there's more where that came from, unsurprisingly and depressingly)

see, e.g.,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2889958

I was left sputtering what...why ... how... then I realized that some uncomplimentary things were probably in play (regarding a poster that could and would dismiss this)

in this issue. What a shock.

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2014, 04:43 PM - Edit history (1)

I especcially enjoy all your tactics its like you have a RW playbook memorized. Labeling your enemy, demonizing them using stuff out of context . Very good!

lol wut? Just can't help yourself trying to derail a discussion of misogyny and sexism, can you?

I simply was trashing a thread.

Again, if you would stop fighting in the 'gender wars' against feminism and feminists, that would mean much more than 'gender wars: trashing" followed by your usual flamefest.

and continued. I have only responded. But Im not the one into grandstanding.

I don't know how you stretched this into a 'gender war" thing ... I guess I don't even want to know what the motivation behind that thought process was.

Thats why I trashed it, I wont play the gender wars or Woo threads

(though I disagree with the premise of 'one of those stories&quot ... it is about on-line stalking and psychos. I view it as a cautionary tale.

The only thing that made this a gender "thing' was your post. I am not being snarky ... We all jump at something that isn't there at one time or another. If you reflect on your post, perhaps you can see it from that point of view.

for exercising my opinion (which again is just my opinion) you know you got problems on this board

Depends what your opinion is. And apparently your opinion does not include treating women with respect. That isn't supposed to be tolerated on here. It certainly is not a liberal or progressive stance.

And again, I know it's been said already, numerous times, but it is really funny how you come in here to announce you're going to trash the thread and then proceed to keep reading it and posting in it. Hardly trashed, even if you say it "remains trashed". With that sort of immaturity and lack of self control it's not hard to see how you can post the things I've just seen.

it certainly took you long enough. And my comment was aimed at people who think that any time someone posts something about women, it starts a gender war on DU and you've proven that point beautifully... it's just a shame you don't get irony. The reason I capitalized SOME is not all women get harassed on the internet. If I'd left that as a general statement, "women get harassed" SOMEone would have pointed out that I was generalizing and jumped on that.

Anyway, thank you for trashing the thread.

nt

Do you need instructions on how to do it?

Or by 'trashing' did you mean something else?

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Used a gender neutral name online. I always leave the gender choice blank. I still get harassed by people deciding no answer means female.

leave the relative safety and sanity of progressive sites.

I know I have to be very careful about where I interact and with whom.

If I am ever subject to bullying, I completely stop the interaction both
ways. I won't tolerate it in any way.

No Twitter account, FB is limited to family, don't post anywhere but here and occasionally on Food network (recipe review). Anybody on-line has to use common sense and be stingy with info.

No facebook, friends know our pictures can't be on facebook. I do read twitter but don't tweet(?). A couple of other sites and here is my ownline home.

I'm even very cautious here before following links.

and build their businesses online, if they want. Getting enough visibility requires to let people know parts about yourself, and once you let it slip you're female, you're going to get hate and people trying to work against you.

Not to mention how they stalk and bully rape victims.

I usually have handles that are gender neutral. My DU one is pretty gendered (at least to me) because when I made it I thought that it would be safe to have a girl-ish name here. So far no death threats, so.. *knocks on wood*.

My first name is rather androgynous (and remarkably common)... and I am usually safe using my real name associated with business. I was not pleased when my company decided that photos should accompany our on-line profiles and info.

in the web development biz. Part of our "job" can be blogging. With creeps like this out there, it makes you not want to do the things needed to do to get ahead in the field.

and the comments on that website are toxic against women. It's just mind boggling. If people can be so toxic online, what are they like IRL?

I think half the crap that gets said on-line wouldn't get said in real life. Particularly the nasty crap. People tend to find it easy to hide behind a screen and say whatever they want. Maybe because it isn't 'real' conversation and they can create this larger than life persona.

Pay no attention to the person behind the curtain - kinda like that.

That's mostly why I don't have a big on-line life. Well, that and I just can't be bothered.

It is the anonymity, but could it be that maybe some (many?) men online have a deep hatred for women?

I tend to think a little of both.

I don't think it's only men that do the bullying online either.

There's all sorts of weirdness that goes on. I saw something on tv awhile ago about 'catfish'. People carry on an online romance, but they have lied all along about their gender. The program had a girl that lied claiming she was a guy, and a guy claiming to be a girl. They thought it was harmless fun. It came down to when the people went to meet the liars. The ones that didn't lie were heartbroken and both crying. The liars didn't give a crap, and said that they would probably do it again.

The same thing happened to that college football player a year or so ago. Why do people do that? Are they sociopaths? If that's the case, we have bigger issues that need to be addressed.

These were people in their early 20s. I was pretty astounded at how cold they liars were.

I think the show was on MTV -of all places.

Watch a few episodes of the show sometime. Don't judge by just one either.

http://www.mtv.com/shows/catfish/video/full-episodes/

You get to see what these people are like here and there are so many issues and interesting social aspects that outside of a few of them, you really can't come away hating or disliking them. You tend to feel sorry more often than not for the lot they were cast in and the social issues they faced.

It's a great show, very educational in a lot of ways. I have my kids watch it to understand why people act like they do online and the importance of protecting yourself as well.

Why do website owners tolerate -- and therefore encourage--this behavior?
Back when an online presence was peripheral for most people it was easier to dismiss the bad behavior but these days many young people socialize as much if not more online than IRL.

are truly thinking this way IRL. That's kinda scary. You know how to deal with an asshole when they're being an asshole but if they're secretly hateful, that's worse.

Maybe some don't have any kind of moderation system in place.

I have seen some horrible behavior of young people online. I seriously could not believe what I was reading. I know there are a lot of decent kids out there, but I think kids are just meaner than they ever have been before. Maybe because it is so impersonal online. You can't see people's expressions, the tone of their voice...
I have mistaken what people have said to me here, and have had people mistake what I said too.

Back in the AOL days, I thought that people felt they had license to behave badly online because of their anonymity. Unless you screwed up, or unless you ticked off a hacker, nobody would ever connect you with your screen name. It instills bravery, or recklessness... you feel more able to speak your mind, because there are virtually no consequences. Burn down a bridge, delete your screen name and come back with a new one. The Star Warsies of AOL would invade the Bridge (the most popular Star Trek chat room) and vice versa, slinging insults and generally being disruptive, and yes, bullying each other. The "anonymous dick" aka "troll" is just a part of the internet... a person removed from consequences is kind of terrible a lot of the time. They're on almost every message board, they're in almost every chat room, and don't even get me started on the quality of conversation you get in the middle of a Modern Warfare 2 multiplayer match.

And then there's Facebook, which seems to blow the anonymity theory completely out of the water. Supposedly, everyone you interact with is someone you know IRL, or at least a friend of a friend. You see their name, you see their image, you see their connections. You've known each other practically your whole lives, loved each other as friends and family, and yet BANG--Duck Dynasty happens and you're at each other's throats, saying things you would never dream of saying IRL, getting called ignorant, stupid, and getting the same back in return--even to the point of them telling you you're legit going to hell!. Clearly, they're not anonymous. So what's the mechanism? Well, the lack of consequences still exists in two big obvious ways: 1) you can't see how much you're upsetting them, you can't see them cry, and 2) you're far enough away that they won't just cold-cock you in the face. You're largely removed from the empathetic triggers, as well as physical danger, two of the biggest things that hold us in check as social animals.

And this is between FAMILY! I know I've got to see these people again, and the last thing I want is to have that awkward moment when we remember all the shit we said online and don't know what to say IRL (actually didn't go to one half of my familys' Christmas party this year because they went too far on FB). So I, at least, try to keep myself in check, and a lot of times I do, sometimes I slip up in the heat of the moment, but I always try to take a breath and ask myself, would I say this to their faces? Almost unequivocally, the answer is no, but is that no because I'd be too afraid to take a moral, righteous stand, or is the answer no because it's just mean? If the former, say it, if you later, delete that shit and walk away.

Then, you get people who are just angry, who just want to vent. Maybe they were bullied IRL, or had a girlfriend break their hearts, or never had a girl give them the time of day for one reason or another, or have been fed homophobic and/or racist BS their whole lives. Anonymity, lack of empathetic feedback, and a mean spirit looking to make trouble form a very toxic concoction. And a lot of times, to the victim, I know it's a shock to the system, but you just gotta let it go. 99% of the time, these people are no threat because they're cowards at the core; they reason why they're doing this online is because it's the only outlet for saying what they want to say where they won't get horrifically beaten. They're harassing to harass because they can, and you can engage them (what they're looking for, probably) or you can block them, you can report them to the admins and see about getting them banned from the site... Trolls should be pitied, not feared. For the 1% that are a special kind of crazy and are willing to take this IRL... that's one of those things I feel out society hasn't quite caught up to yet. But, my point is that the vast majority of the time, these people can't be reasoned with, just want to disrupt, and are no real threat, so you really need a grow a thick skin online or else you will be psychologically tormented. Like demons, the only way they can hurt you is if you let them inside. It sucks to have to deal with, but if you have any kind of presence online, you have to.

I feel it's also important to point out that a lot of the cyber-bullying suicides result from bullying that starts IRL transferring over to harassment online, which doesn't sound exactly like what the OP is talking about, or at least is a different issue from strictly online harassment and I don't think the two should be lumped in together.

are too cowardly to express these thoughts where real people will hear them in real time and have the ability to respond, doesn't change the fact that they have them.

or think they ought to have IRL.

Anonymity allows a lot of people to pretend they are who they are not. For some people, this takes the form of tough guy. Put a few of these "tough guys" together in a chat and you have group reinforcement, spiraling downwards, with everyone trying to be the baddest dude in the room.

A few of them are probably genuinely nuts, too.

Particularly, online gaming communities, such as WoW and Second Life. People will play as characters that they either wish they could be like IRL or play as a character that allows them to be totally different online from who they are IRL.

The anonymous Internet as one big MMO, with people getting to role-play the character they see themselves as, or would like to be. Some of the characters they create just plain suck.

... but, perhaps we could all use a little more caution (when possible) with our online persona's and information.