There aren't a lot of "facts" that are gonna alter that reality.

If the locals don't take action, and the justice dept sits on its hands, it really is time for Obama to shit can Eric Holder.

along with the police telling him not to get out of the car.

is considering what we DO KNOW, what else could have happened where what ended up happening was justified ?

a murder trial.

The Sanford authorities are desperately trying to prevent this from going to a trial. They know how bad they'll look.

...but if George Zimmerman is never placed before a judge in the first place, something is seriously wrong with law and order in Florida.

And I believe there would be troubling (for Zimmerman) details, like:

"How did you confront Martin?"

"How did you identify yourself to Martin?"

"Did you attempt to physically restrain Martin?"

"At what point did you draw your fire-arm?"

"After calling in your report, why did you feel the need to confront Martin, even after being instructed not to?"

This case also ought to raise soon interesting legal issues, like:

Can I physically assault someone and then when they kick my butt, shoot them claiming that I felt threatened?

Can I verbally assault someone, using those words commonly referred to as "fighting words" and then claim self-defense when I shoot them as they advance towards me?

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/InternetForms/Forms/CHL-16.pdf
[div class='excerpt']
PC §9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;
...
PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
...
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and


The 'generally' part is that if, for instance, you and a guy stepped outside a bar to 'engage in fisticuffs', and he pulled a gun- you would be justified in using deadly force in response.

n/t

http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/776.041.html

[div class='excerpt']776.041 Use of force by aggressor.
The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

and from what has been reported, Zimmerman would not be able to avail himself of that defense, as he initiated the conflict and I don't think a bloody nose constitutes: "such [a] force [that] is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm ..."

Nor is there reported evidence that Zimmerman: "... ha[d] exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant ...;"

Nor is there reported evidence that Zimmerman, "In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force."

Which is why those railing over the 'stand your ground' law seem a bit silly when you actually look up the statutes.

Sanford PD apparently refusing to press charges here is the issue foremost in my mind. The law, as written, does not appear to support Zimmerman's self-defense claims.

There's something odious going on here.

for police to do nothing, as in this case.

I serious doubt those questions will ever be asked or answered.

edit: but I'm not a lawyer, so I may be completely wrong.

nuff said

That poor baby had skittles in his hand (just writing that made me cry)

I'll leave it up to your imagination to figure out the forum where this sentiment is bandied about.

Mostly from one 'shadowy' individual.

in which i am asked whatever would zimmerman be arrested for...

No matter where you go on DU, you'll find sympathy for the kid. It may be true that there are 'more facts' to be found out, but I doubt you can show me any DUer that thinks this shooting was justified.

No.

My reply was to the line that 'we need to wait until all the facts are in,' and you can sure as hell find that line parroted on DU.

as I happen to believe in innocent until proven guilty.

As a 'back of the envelope estimate' I'd say things look pretty grim for Mr. Zimmerman. Even if the shooting is ruled justified, he made a number of stupid-assed mistakes, starting with getting out of his car, like he had any right to accost this kid at all.

But we'll see. DOJ and FBI are involved now. If he did something wrong, Zimmerman is toast, and likely, some members of the local PD as well.

Justice will not be denied, even if it's gears turn slow.

Sadly, a right that Trayvon Martin did not have.

I agree, Trayvon was denied basic human rights (survival just for starters), and for that, I want to see justice done. It will come.

There has been more than one person desperately requesting "more data" and even when provided with it, it is seemingly never enough to conclude that a young boy lost his life to a vigilante psychopath for no damn reason.

because it is obvious that the cops have been trying from the start to cover up most of the relevant facts in order to protect Zimmerman.

If there was anything good to come from the power of social media--combined with the internet.... it is that these little backward locales (and their bought and paid for PDs) can not escape public scrutiny.

May the family of this beautiful young man find some justice.

They asked Zimmerman why he shot the Black felon-in-training, erm ... Mr. Martin.

And they played the perfectly clear 911 calls with the calls for help to the grieving grand-father (or was it the father) and asked him if that was his son/grandson.


{S/O}

what exactly is your point?

Maybe one of these thingies would help?

{S/O} at the end of my post.

he needs to be arrested, weeks ago.

As far as I read, what he did is not illegal in Florida.

my opinion.

When you occasionally hear that laws may vary from state to state, I did not realize how drastically they meant.

By everything that I read, murder is now is legal in Florida. As long as there is not proof positive that you 100% couldn't have possibly killed in self defense, anyhow. And proving a negative is, as we all know, mildly difficult.

http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/776.041.html

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.
The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

it would appear that by zimmerman's own account and the 911 tapes which recorded his comments to police dispatchers, he didn't meet these parameters. As far as I'm concerned, that puts him in the murderer category.

The minor was not attempting to commit, was not commiting nor was he escaping after the commision of a felony. He was walking home from the convenience store. No where in the Union is walking home from a convenience store a felony. It doesn't even rise to misdemeanor.

zimmerman was in a car out of which HE CHOSE to exit in order to confront this minor in order to provoke the use of force.

He had not exhausted every reasonable means to escape "such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant..."

I think the minor having been recorded on the 911 tapes begging for his life before a gunshot rang out and he was silenced constitutes him withdrawing from physical contact, but the assailant (zimmerman) decided to not only continue/resume the use of force, he escalated it til the minor was sufficiently dead.

Now, you may not like those inconvenient details of what is now not in dispute about how the assailant behaved in the moments before a 17 yr old minor lie dead face down in the dirt, but sometimes, the truth is inconvenient and uncomfortable for some to wrap their heads around. It does not diminish the truth nor will it keep it from surfacing. The truth always surfaces when it's most inconvenient to the liar, which zimmerman has proven to be.

On the subject of truth, I refer you to my quote below:

Murder 1. And expect the Grand Jury to come back with the same.

I see little doubt that the man is a murderer. I don't disagree with anything you have said.

The problem is that only time and a court case will tell us if he is legally a murderer in the state of Florida. I sure hope he is, but much of what I have read seems to indicate doubt that he can be successfully prosecuted. Granted that's a few days old now, so there may be more available that changes that picture going forward.

Because none of what you said even resembles anything close to reality.


Or were you just trying to be clever?

A little bit glib. A little bit is that that really is what I had just been reading.

I had just read about 10 articles mulling over the shooting and the issue in general. Several stated that LE have all but quit even investigating anyone who claims self defense in Florida. Others indicated that the defense has been used successfully to get gang members off when innocents died in a shoot out. Etc. What I read is what was described in my post. None seemed to indicate great hope that the shooter could be successfully prosecuted.

Now, logically, it can't be as clear cut and open ended as all that. Otherwise virtually no one would ever go to jail for murder in Florida, unless their defense lawyer was really dumb. That's where me being glib comes into it.

others who seek justice need to rise up and make life difficult for the PTB and that business should not be able to be conducted as normal until this problem is addressed.

eom

...if the state and Feds hadn't gotten involved, the facts never would have come out!

Nothing else makes much sense, and you'd think they'd have the sense to fake an arrest just to avoid the uproar.

So lazy cops with a snitch who's a violent wannabe gunman combine to do nothing about the death of a black teenager armed with a candy bar and soft drink.

Hard to make that sound good, ain't it?

But I'll bet he knows plenty of other similar-minded and acting would-be, wannabe, and actual criminals.

So his mimicking his handlers would be explainable.

... it is the coverup that is taking so long.

Last edited Mon Mar 19, 2012, 06:17 PM - Edit history (1)

sigh.

Have a nice Monday.

Just WHO is going to make sure WHAT facts come out, if not in a trial?

When Zimmerman is tried for murder, and the local coips are arrested and tried for being accessories after the fact,
THEN some facts will start to come out, when all those little cowards start playing "who can do the CYA fastest?"

Neither of which gain anything by letting the local PD skate, and both of which stand to gain all sorts of attaboy's for finding a problem.

(Which quite obviously, there is a problem)

Except maybe letting a riot or two foment.

The only excuse for not dragging Zimmerman and the local PD in for intense interrogation is that they
are assembling evidence, but all the evidence there is is either already out there, or in the process of
being suppressed. I'm all for the DOJ to get involved--wish they had from day one. But not when the
case has gone cold. They need to be seen as acting swiftly and efficiently. The longer this drags out,
the more other Zimmermans and Sherrif Joes think their actions are without consequences.

The timing of the news reports suggests some DOJ folks got memos while they were sleeping last night, about where they would be packing up and visiting today.

Even under the best of circumstances, this takes time. It sucks, but it does. I remain confident that Trayvon will ultimately get justice in all this, in so far as a murdered child can.

The defense can get up and say "How come it took you so long to arrest my client and charge him? Is it true you simply bowed to public pressure?"

Never mind the half-hearted prosecution that will clearly go on.

A disgrace.

said "If the shooter were black and the victim white we would never have heard about this." That is exactly right. If that were the case the shooter would have been arrested as soon as the police arrived and the prosecutor would be trying to decide whether to seek the death penalty or let him plead to life in prison. Several unbelievable comments there with racist overtones, but 80% were outraged that it took media coverage to get an investigation going.

The prosecuting attorney and the sheriff need to also be arrested immediately as well for conspiracy. They are aiding and abetting this murderer.