while the government needs a warrant to see it!

If you need to find out what someone said to his lawyer on the phone, need leverage in negotiations, to lean on a politician who is not saying the right things, or just find out who is leaking stories to the press, the NSA can help... If you have enough power and know the right people.

http://www.opensecrets.org/

There's lots of countries in the world. We like knowing what's going on inside their governments.

Exactly the same way those countries like knowing what's going on inside our government (and corporations) and fund programs to find out.

"Terrorism!!!!!!" was used to sell additional funding to these programs. But there's no reason to believe they are only used to detect terrorists, nor is there any reason to believe the programs were created after 9/11.

A very large problem in this debate is we're only arguing about a tiny fraction of what we, and every other country, are doing.

Alexander's already admitted it doesn't stop any terrorism.

Also they've admitted its used to fabricate evidence trails.

"Because we want to watch what's going on in Germany" for example is a piss poor excuse gor the NSAs grotesque expense and illegal overreach.

Not compared to other countries.

Based on what shows up in the world's media, our government does far less economic espionage than other countries. For example, China was implicated a few years ago spying on lots of "high tech" companies in the US.

Another example is France stole trade secrets from Boeing and gave them to Airbus in the early 1990s. And there's a ton of claims about Israel - hard to figure out which ones are just anti-semitism though.

The US programs that were leaked have not revealed economic espionage (so far).


Spying on Germany is legal. No law or treaty blocks it, and non-US Persons in Germany do not have Constitutional rights.

(If the US takes custody of a German, or they travel to the US, they become US Persons and have Constitutional rights while that is going on. Once they go back to Germany they lose those rights again.)

from the Guardian.

And what do we call spying on the EU anti-trust commissioner, Joaquim Almunia? National security?

You would think that if the Guardian truly had something in this vein, they would simply print the facts instead of an editorial masking as 'breaking news'.

We're adults. We can handle the facts.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

Here's the WaPo:

I think neutral observers already know what the truth is.

Bush is accused of war crimes by people all over the world. It may have escaped you, but there actually are people above the law. Banksters and those who do their bidding, for example. So though you make a fair point - "not proven in a court of law" - the law clearly has its limits.

Including, perhaps, Petrobras. It's just as likely that some financial malfeasance (money laundering? toxic chemical dumping?) was behind the NSA labeling Petrobras as a target.

My point is we don't know why he was a target and we probably should. But the Guardian strongly implying one thing without offering facts is not enough to get me worked up about it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

and remove doubts.

Is there any revelation about spying that would make you change your mind (which is "no big deal", if I read you correctly) about it? MY borders have been crossed, and as a foreigner it looks like the continuous and unwarranted digital dragnet remains firmly in place. It's a gross violation of my human rights. Others may do it too. Well, then they are equally guilty.

Their customers mostly being other countries. Knowing how much oil China is able to import has effects on our interactions with them.

Who did the NSA give the information to?

For it to be economic espionage, they'd have to do something "economic" with it. Such as turn the data over to Exxon or use it to set import quotas or tariffs.

Economic, climate change, OPEC I presume... you name it, anywhere the US can game the system.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112763167

Here's a link to just one episode at Copenhagen. This IS economic espionage.

They also spied on the heads of international aid organizations, directors of the United Nations, foreign energy firms, and the head of the European Union's antitrust division.

Almunia? Really? The only reason he's targeted is because the US wanted insider information on EU's anti-trust case against Google.

http://www.zdnet.com/nsa-spied-on-business-leaders-eu-antitrust-chief-new-snowden-docs-claim-7000024556/

The government has to do something "economic" with the information. Like use it to help companies in their country or to tweak tariffs, trade, and so on.

He's doing more than investigating Google. Finding out what's going on tells them about a lot of other cases in the EU, which will then have large political implications in the relevant countries.

Of course "we" are.

That's why it will continue.

And us peons will just have to learn that sucking every last bit of "its only metadata!!!111!" is for "our" own good against "terrorists".

If you don't think the Bush/Saudi-connected Carlyle Group (for example) isn't profiting from this info, I have a bridge to sell you in San Francisco.

The NSA exists to ensure US economic imperialism. This isn't stupid industrial espionage although that may be a convenient perk.

Its far beyond that and into crafting policy that ensures Halliburton etc (Dick Cheney *cough*) have perpetual war to keep the big $$$ flowing.

1. Lots of data is got, which at some alter point can be sold to all sorts of interested parties can be persuaded to buy (although not necessarily for money). the data is PURE CAPITAL.
2. The chilling effect prevents useful protest or action of "other kinds". Yay!
3. It pays a lot of developers and other involved parties a lot of cash, which keeps relationships open for further use.
4. It's beautifully transferable to law enforcement, that's not happened yet (as far as we know) but all that has to happen is for the system to stay alive long enough until it seems "normal" and then the next move can be easily brought about by simply shifting to new debating poles with some well timed distortion theatre - the theme will be "if we've got the info we may as well use it"
5. It provides secret intel on the actions of OTHER FUCKING GOVERNMENTS. They're using it to tap foreign powers. You think they'll give that up?

Why do people insist on treating such huge systems as being of singular, monolithic purpose? "NEEEEEH. WE'VE GOT TO GET THE TERRORISTS." Bullshit. That's not how politicians think. AT. ALL. That's how the dumb populace thinks and the politicians and other agents of interest know that.

Cue "BUT, BUT, BUT you must be a ....a .....a ......LIBEEEEERTAAAAAARIAAAAAN" in 3, 2, 1...

I despair of this fucking message board.

Lots of folks are making lots of money

Even Snowden wasn't able to discern if it did.

I'm not sure what your point is?

It is just not working for you, I, and other citizens.

It has other masters.

The US Government can use the web browsing, downloading and email habits under watch on everyone. Then if an engineer in Russia has access to some top secret Russian information they can look it up the data and maybe he downloaded or viewed child porn. They can demand that he give them the information or expose him as a child pornographer. The first trick the spy manual teaches an agent.