Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
16 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
What Happened When Church And State Were Not Separate? (Original Post) Playinghardball Mar 2012 OP
The Spanish Inquisition. The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2012 #1
It was even worse in Europe for a while slackmaster Mar 2012 #2
Surprise is her chief weapon. Dr. Strange Mar 2012 #9
Suprise and fear. The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2012 #11
"I'll come in again". Nt A HERETIC I AM Mar 2012 #14
The Crusades Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #3
It's interesting that in the UK there is NO separation of church and state, Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #4
well, that's because king henry VIII newspeak Mar 2012 #16
or we could be just like nykym Mar 2012 #5
you get lunatics on steroids DemocracyInaction Mar 2012 #6
The Reformation EC Mar 2012 #7
The Thirty Years War is a better example bhikkhu Mar 2012 #8
She turned me into a newt tularetom Mar 2012 #10
The same thing as when there was no separation between King and state... JHB Mar 2012 #12
St. Bartholomew's Day massacre which kind of reminds me of the Hutus doing in the Tutzis. Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #13
England went through a barbaric phase when the church and King Baitball Blogger Mar 2012 #15
 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
2. It was even worse in Europe for a while
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:24 AM
Mar 2012


ETA DAMN! Beaten by The Velveteen Ocelot by LESS THAN ONE SECOND!

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
4. It's interesting that in the UK there is NO separation of church and state,
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:30 AM
Mar 2012

in fact there is an official state religion (the Church of England) and there is prayer in public schools.

But two of the three major party leaders are atheists, and nobody cares. There is no "religious right". Abortion is viewed only as a medical, not as a religious, issue. And the ridiculous USA contraception wars are viewed with incredulity by the British. Even the UK Conservatives view Rick Santorum with disgust.

Oh, and David Cameron is pushing for gay marriage to be legal. None of this "marriage is between a man and a woman.... God is in the mix" stuff.

newspeak

(4,847 posts)
16. well, that's because king henry VIII
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 01:18 PM
Mar 2012

pissed off the pope. Popes had a very strong hold on all monarchies at the time. However, england had a very bloody religious war going even during queen elizabeth.

When any church or religion has too much power, we get incidents, like the inquisition, which lasted for a couple hundred years. Of course, I felt that the inquisition was a great business venture by the church, while keeping the people in perpetual fear. I mean, the person had to pay for their own torture (if they couldn't then the town's people paid), had to pay for the inquisitor and for the burning or hanging. And, the church confiscated the property if found guilty. WOW, what a great racket they had going.

Now, we can look at places like SA, where they have the "morality police." What your supposed to wear, how your supposed to behave--sucks, especially for women. Of course, if your uber wealthy, well, you can basically do what you want and go where you can do what you want (If your male) . It's just a mechanism to keep the proles in line.

EC

(12,287 posts)
7. The Reformation
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:56 AM
Mar 2012

How about constantly changing religions depending on who the ruler is? That's what went on in England. When the king/queen would change his/her church the whole country had to or be condemned as a heratic (burned, beheaded , imprisoned, etc.). How do you think Bloody Mary got her name?

bhikkhu

(10,724 posts)
8. The Thirty Years War is a better example
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 11:04 AM
Mar 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

...not simple by any means, but it is supposed to be the example the founders had in mind as to exactly what they wanted to avoid.

JHB

(37,162 posts)
12. The same thing as when there was no separation between King and state...
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 12:35 PM
Mar 2012

...or Party and state, or Führer and state...

Accountability of those in power dies because dissent is made indistinguishable from treason against God/ThePeople/King/Leader. There can be no loyal opposition that is anything more than mildly-disagreeing lapdogs.

That's why the Founding Fathers got rid of it.

Uncle Joe

(58,425 posts)
13. St. Bartholomew's Day massacre which kind of reminds me of the Hutus doing in the Tutzis.
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 12:46 PM
Mar 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre

"The St. Bartholomew's Day massacre (Massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy in French) in 1572 was a targeted group of assassinations, followed by a wave of Roman Catholic mob violence, both directed against the Huguenots (French Calvinist Protestants), during the French Wars of Religion. Traditionally believed to have been instigated by Catherine de' Medici, the mother of King Charles IX, the massacre took place six days after the wedding of the king's sister Margaret to the Protestant Henry III of Navarre (the future Henry IV of France). This marriage was an occasion for which many of the most wealthy and prominent Huguenots had gathered in largely Catholic Paris.

The massacre began on 23 August 1572 (the eve of the feast of Bartholomew the Apostle), two days after the attempted assassination of Admiral Gaspard de Coligny, the military and political leader of the Huguenots. The king ordered the killing of a group of Huguenot leaders, including Coligny, and the slaughter spread throughout Paris. Lasting several weeks, the massacre expanded outward to other urban centres and the countryside. Modern estimates for the number of dead vary widely, from 5,000 to 30,000."

(snip)

"The attempted assassination of Coligny triggered the crisis that led to the massacre. Admiral de Coligny was the most respected Huguenot leader and enjoyed a close relationship with the king, although he was distrusted by the king's mother. Aware of the danger of reprisals from the Protestants, the king and his court visited Coligny on his sickbed and promised him that the culprits would be punished. While the Queen Mother was eating dinner, Protestants burst in to demand justice, some talking in menacing terms.[13] Fears of Huguenot reprisals grew. Coligny's brother-in-law led a 4,000-strong army camped just outside Paris[14] and, although there is no evidence it was planning to attack, Catholics in the city feared it might take revenge on the Guises or the city populace itself. That evening, Catherine held a meeting at the Tuileries Palace with her Italian advisers, including Albert de Gondi, Comte de Retz. On the evening of 23 August, Catherine went to see the king to discuss the crisis. Though no details of the meeting survive, Charles IX and his mother took the decision to eliminate the Protestant leaders, Holt speculates perhaps "between two and three dozen noblemen" who were still in Paris.[15] Other historians are reluctant to speculate on the composition or size of the group of leaders targeted at this point, beyond the few obvious heads. Most potential candidates were accompanied by groups of gentlemen as staff and bodyguards like Coligny; so, each killing of a leader could have been expected to involve killing these as well.

Shortly after this decision, the municipal authorities of Paris were summoned. They were ordered to shut the city gates and to arm the citizenry in order to prevent any attempt at a Protestant uprising. The king's Swiss Guard was given the task of killing a list of leading Protestants. It is difficult today to determine the exact chronology of events and to know the moment the killing began. It seems a signal was given by ringing bells for matins (between midnight and dawn) at the church of Saint-Germain l'Auxerrois, near the Louvre, which was the parish church of the kings of France. Before this, the Swiss guards had expelled the Protestant nobles from the Louvre palace and then slaughtered them in the streets."

Thanks for the thread, Playinghardball






Latest Discussions»General Discussion»What Happened When Church...