I expect the first of many disasters to happen within the first year, and yes, people will blame Obama.

Horrible.

and, unlike many things, Obama will deserve it.

if it's ever finalized.

permits that say, "emergency plans in order".

Probably those permits should be made public (well before the go-ahead is signed) So professionals and all Americans can scrutinize permits for any untruthful parts. Millions of eyes are better than none.

This one is not.

people who refuse to check the facts. They hear "smart" people talk and just fall in line, thinking they know what their saying. That he's not liberal enough, yada, yada....

I'm royally pissed at him for his war on drug choices. Which have amounted to zero, so far. I feel he's a hypocrite about pot and am livid about it. But that is a very personal thing with me and not a priority to others, nor to the world issues at large. But it doesn't make me broad-brush him off as no good or acknowledge the great things about him.

On this, he is NOT to blame, damn it! I still love him as our president, but he's not perfect. And I don't expect him to be.

In advance

It's just my favorite facetious Obama joke. (I wasn't sure if was gonna read on this one)

and land.

Too bad it's not a solution for now and can't be made to happen. YET. Hopefully this mess will be remembered before the next shit-oil project is begun and we try to stop it, before it gets to this.

a lot of Canadians want that too. Some are getting a little tired of corporations and politicians selling off our natural resources to other places to refine and create jobs. A huge part of the issue is we have such strict environmental standards surrounding building new refineries that companies find building refineries here 'too expensive and time consuming'. Another case of companies going where it's cheaper and where there are fewer environmental restrictions - because, you know, they don't care about the environment so long as they can sell their oil and make an extra 0.00001% margin.

That sludge anyway will be refined in Texas, than sold to china. Build a refinery right on the shale lands that is already ruined land. Canada could still sell the finished product to whoever they wish.

From what I understand Canada meets all their gasoline and other fuel needs from domestic production.

If your Gov is not cutting a check to every citizen (like Alaska cuts a $1,000+ check for the sale of crude to every man,woman and child), why give your resources away 'free' to other countries? One day that shale will be gone and the profit from the sale will be in another countries hands and lands. You'll be left with miles of ruined land and workers with whatever disease the work gave them.

There should be flow switches and valves every twenty five feet or so. If there is a breach the sensors should pick it up immediately and close the valves on both sides until it can be repaired. There's no reason why gallon after gallon should be spilling for days, hours or even minutes on end.

Is this foolproof? No, nothing is.

Heavy regulations to make sure the damn things work, unlike what happened during the gulf spill, should be strictly enforced and inspections up and down the line should frequently occur.

I'm not in favor of the XL, I'm in favor of solar and wind and getting rid of fossil fuels altogether. But if they're going to do this, there's no reason not to make it as safe as possible.

But these precautions cost money. I very much doubt that the Keystone people will have installed half of the safety measures you've outlined here. IF they did, then I'd be a lot less worried.

All those shoulds will add up to a big fat zero, because they won't happen.

But we can fight to get them in place on the federally and state level.

Eventually we're going to have a Republican majority who is going to do away with even more regulations since they get in the way of profit. They don't care if children and teachers are getting poisoned. It would seem Democrats that don't oppose fracking don't care about possible birth defects from those side effects, heck, more politicians claim fracking is a-okay than don't. I don't have much faith in people being guided by modern technology and regulation. I have much more faith that they'll cut corners to enable more money to line their pockets.

I'm not trying to blame the President and I'm not putting the onus on him. What I was trying to say is that years from now - the Repugs that are pushing for the approval of this pipeline will conveniently overlook that fact. They won't want to share any of the blame even though they supported and urged approval of the pipeline. If there is a breach that causes some environmental disaster they'll say it was Obama's fault cause he approved it. People will forget the role the Repugs played in this.

mentioned any thing like you just said. So how could I misunderstand something, that wasn't said? All that was said, is that he'd be blamed with no other facts to quality why.

Many replied in kind. These sort of shallow opinions feed right into the right-wing agenda.

If we criticize Obama, we need to be careful with our words and lack of facts, so that the right doesn't take them to use for their own benefit.

Remember, who "didn't build it?"?

But on this issue is is so unfair to put blame on him. And you did so, with your lack of wording.

If he signs off on it.

then? With knowing all the facts, what should he do? How is it his fault?

He did not begin this. He wasn't around to stop it from the beginning. I ache for him having to make this god-awful decision! He's fucked no matter what to those who don't know the facts and just broad-brush him in a complete bad light.

There is no doubt that this is a horrific disaster waiting to happen - like you said - it won't take years. There will be leaks shortly after the crap oil begins running through the pipelines. Pipes will not be welded securely and bang - oops, there goes another leak over many poor people's property and the water resource is destroyed - sometimes permanently. But that will not be Obama's fault. Because if it's not a pipe burst, it will be a train derailment. Take your pick. Both are monstrous to those that will be involved. The blame lies solely on the Koch-roach brothers who began this, long before we ever heard of Obama. Where were those yelling the loudest to blame Obama when they began this project?

The right does enough unfair gloating of lies against him. It makes me a wee nuts when DU and the left do as well. As in this OP and thread. Sometimes it seems that the expectations of Obama are so unrealistic. It's so damned easy for people to criticize, but then don't offer any alternative solutions.

There are a number of issues I am very displeased about Obama now. Some of them just don't have as high a priority as other issues, I guess. But that doesn't make me less angry at him for not doing at least a little more than he's done by now. Believe me, I am livid for a couple of his current choices!

By the same token, there is much I'm so glad about that he is our POTUS. He's done a lot of good. So let's give him credit where credit is due. I don't even want to think of where we'd be, if another one was pres. thinking back on his 5 year history of events.

But on this issue to say I'd automatically blame him for what ever happens is so not justified!

He has to make a decision. No, to what, Autumn? Pipeline or railway transport? Either way that oil has to be transported. No matter what Obama does. He can't stop that oil from getting shipped across the US, one way or another!

Does he wish he didn't have to make this choice, that he has nothing to do with it's origination? You bet. Yes, we know that there will be spills. No shit, Dick Tracy....... But it just isn't reasonable to put that responsibility of the spills on Obama. Please. IF there was an alternative to this that would avoid spills, I haven't heard of them yet. Have you?

I've always agreed with the majority of your posts, Autumn. But on this, you surprise me.
How can the buck stop with him when it isn't his oil or was never his project to begin with? It is a ugly problem that's been dumped on him, with no responsibility on his part in the first place.

People who want to blame him for anything and everything will blame him, without checking the facts. The fact here is that there is not one fucking thing Obama can do to stop the Keystone Pipeline XL or alternatively, to have the oil go by train. It is a done deal - the oil will be shipped across our states. And it's the right in power that are going, "up yours, liberal tree-huggers". Not Obama.

That should not be us DU'ers, not looking at the facts to come to agreement for the safest way it can be shipped.

hard decisions. I agree it is an ugly problem that was dumped on him, just one of many. It's Canadian oil. They can figure out a way to get THEIR oil to market without the risk of damaging our environment. It might cost them more but hey that's business.

be cool about taking back blaming Obama for whatever the consequences will be for the choice he has to make in this mess? If there's a spill, will it be his fault?

No joking to evade, please. Be honest.

The oil will be shipped south and the big corporations will make a lot of money. The choice is not if but how it will be shipped. Obama is painted into a corner and has no other choice right now but to allow the pipeline to be completed. It is already more than half way done.
If what everyone says is true about all of the danger in this why didn't one of the studies identify the problems? How many hands are there in this cookie jar?

I wish I had seen a post like yours in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4461979

I am so sad at the tone that many take on issues like this one and others as well. It's usually a quick snark with no real thought input. Only a couple like yours that speak directly to the issue, proudretiredvet. Btw, hubbie is a retired Vietnam vet.

Maybe I'm getting too old for this world. I wish I didn't see things the way I do. It's too painful, sometimes.

. . . that he could have taken one, small, woefully insufficient (but real) stand against the only voluntary planetary self-immolation in Earth's 's history, and that he failed to do so.

The only thing worse will be when Keystone doesn't fail, and keeps on slopping that crap into the world oil market for years and years to come.

If he does the right thing and axes it, I will gladly apologize for what I am saying here today, but I see no evidence that such a decision is even possible at this point.

This oil is getting pumped. We can't stop that. It's going to ship either by rail or pipeline. Frankly, of the two, a pipeline is safer, and more environmentally friendly. I wish the tar sands WEREN'T being excavated. Unfortunately, that's not something we can do anything about right now.

Even the State Department study estimates at least $8 in additional costs for rail shipment.

Considering that tar sands oil one year ago was selling for $41 less per barrel than West Texas Intermediate, and was still selling for nearly $20 less than WTI three days ago, your argument that "it's going to ship" doesn't really hold water. It's going to ship if its price remains high enough to justify digging it out of the ground.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/15/markets-canada-crude-idUSL2N0KP25X20140115
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/04/markets-canada-crude-idUSL2N0L925920140204

What helps hold that price differential open, aside from the extra cost and hazard of refining the stuff when it hits the Gulf Coast? Cost of transportation and the sheer remoteness of the Athabascan Formation from the world's major refinery complexes.

So no, it's not inevitable, and Keystone DOES bloody well matter.

for them to get their product to market. They wont share the profits with us, nor will they pick up the tab when they poison some poor state's drinking water.

We will see NO BENEFIT from the KXL. It's all a downside.

That oil prices have been more or less stable the last couple of years. The oil is being extracted now, so unless you expect a price collapse it will be in the future too. I haven't seen anything that suggests a long term price collapse. So the oil will, in all likelihood, continue to be extracted. So we fight and expend political capital to defeat this pipeline and for what? So the oil is shipped in a less safe and less environmentally friendly way? WHY?

Much better to do something that will matter. Agree to build the pipeline if the Repugs will authorize a $1/barrel tariff that will directly fund green energy research. I read somewhere that the pipeline will support 780,000 barrels a day. That would be rougly $280 million yr to green energy research. Not bad.

Hard to say what they and their mouth-breathing supporters hate more, the idea of a tax on anything, or the idea of federal funding for energy research - especially if the words "environment" or "green" are attached to it.

Oh, and btw, ARRA funding alone for alternative energy research totaled $16.8 billion, so why you'd be willing to roll over for Keystone for the annual equivalent of 1.7% of ARRA-level funding escapes me. Could you set the bar any lower?


http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/us-clean-energy-research1.htm

Heck, I'd be glad to levy a tax on EVERY barrel of oil used here of more like $10/barrel. Or just levy the carbon taxes.

But in any case, I don't think the pipline is a fight worth having. WE just don't get anything out of it.

If I think he's wrong on an issue, I'll damned well say so, and if you have a problem with that, then tough shit.

Beyond that, if you don't understand where we are in terms of climate, and what full exploitation of the tar sands would do to the little remaining elbow room we have left, then I suggest you do a little bit of reading. I'm not your research assistant.

But you obviously didn't read my post completely nor read the research I provided and have read.... Don't say I don't understand about climate change. I get sobbing and ache for my grandchildren and their children of what we are doing wrong for their futures.

Instead of a reasonable response to a horrible problem, you offer no more than snark and FLOWERY PHRASES. Which offers nothing reasonable to the discussion of what can be done, for the the problem in our lap, NOW! What part of that don't you grasp? What you said will not change one iota of the Keystone XL problem. Currently, today, it is what is - urgently NOW.

You made that statement. Now back it up with facts.

Why is this being presented as a magic gotcha? It wouldn't be a decision if it was compulsory.

eventually. Withholding approval will not stop it. Maybe for today, but not for later. There is nothing magic about it. We have a problem, Houston. What is to be done?

First it is much more likely to involve a spill type of accident. Second it ends up costing our citizens more money for the finished product and we know all of us poor folks just want to pay more for gas we have to have for work. Third if you put it on a train most that extra money it costs will go into the hands of those who own the trains. I guess you like making them even more money.
I'm down at a real life level here. This will happen and I might as well benefit from the lower prices.

Upward pressure on the cost of carbon enhances long term prospects of survival.

I am definitely at the real life level.

How can Obama axe this project now? That is the question.

I wish I knew. I wish it could get axed. I wish a lot of shit. I have many "shoulds". We shouldn't be having to discuss the options of transporting oil, risking our property and water. We shouldn't be getting energy from the ground anymore. We should know that climate change is a reality.....................


OMG. Reality.

There's that fucking word that screws up all the stuff that we use big words for to sound so damned smart about. BUT, not solving a damned fucking thing. By the time we reach the green energy usage level as say, Germany; you and I will be probably be both dead. But my grandchildren and their children will still be suffering from the latest oil spill from a train or a pipe that occurred in our lifetime. The one where we didn't do shit about to help Obama decide on.

like such an action is prohibited by physics or the law. What "can" is at issue?

You replied to it getting axed. And I asked (Ebonics fucking with me?), how. No light switches or physics.

How can this be stopped - NOW. That's the point of reality. If not, then what. For now, today, this week. Not some reality-free dream, green utopia that doesn't exist yet. YET. If ever.

Withholding approval does not violate the laws of physics so it can be done, it is legally within his purview so their is no systemic handcuff there is no other "how" or if you are aware of one then please articulate it.

Is that hard for you to grasp?

In the end, it's his decision whether to permit the pipeline to cross the border with Canada.

He gives or withholds approval for the pipeline to do so, as Chief Executive.

What makes Keystone special besides the fact that environmentalists are trying to stop it?

It's like pot with the Republicans. Can't let the other side have anything, even when it doesn't make any real sense opposing it.

SMH

We need to focus our efforts on advancing green energy R&D and infrastructure. This pipeline is relatively inconsequential.

Oops, forgot this isn't Fox.

Did you get lost?

Hoo boy.............

My aunt used to say if you have nothing nice to say.... you know it, right? I'll add that if you don't have something knowledgeable to say, STFU.

Research on what?

We have millions of miles of gas annd oil pipelines in this country that have have been operating for decades. What makes Keystone any differennt other than the fact that environmental extremists are lobbying against it?