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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:39 PM Feb 2014

Dunn trial prediction

From the start of this I have expected trouble with the attempted murder charges.

If you empty a gun into a crowded elevator with 12 passengers and kill three people you will be charged with three counts of murder, even if you were aiming at only one person.

If, however, you only hit one person you will not usually be charged with the attempted murder of the other 11 people unless you did something speciffic to indicate that you intended to kill all 12 and acted to do so.

Attempted murder is always a trickier charge than murder because murder starts with a key fact in the form of a dead body, and results are evidence of intent. Rebutable evidence, but evidence.

You shot this guy. He died from the injury. That doesn't prove you intended to kill him, but it is suggestive. It's a strong start.

To prove three counts of attempted murder in the way jurors are required to determine things proven, however, with the speciffic elements of the crime as defined in law, we get into difficult areas, like, did he form the intent to kill the three people who were not shot, as individual entities?

And did he make seperate, intentional efforts to kill each of those three people? Two of them? One of them?

Was at least one shot fired at each individual with the intent to kill that individual? Did he aim at all four people at different times?

This is separate from acting with a reckless and depraved disregard for the welfare of the other three. You generally cannot empty a gun in the direction of people without doing something felonious. He did commit some crime against the three people who were not shot, but there may not be the kind of evidence specific to those charges one would need to find the particular charge of attempted murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

None of this is a defense of Dunn's actions, but merely noting that attempted murder (Versus, say, assault with a deadly weapon, reckless endangerment, etc.) is a tricky charge in this situation.

My prediction: The jury is having trouble with attempted murder charges, but had no trouble with the murder charges beyond deciding between first and second degree. And self defense was never considered very seriously.

And if I'm wrong I'm wrong.
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JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
1. I just found out that Dunn is a rightwing nut job who believes
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:42 PM
Feb 2014

"Minorities are taking over America", so it wouldn't surprise me if he was attempting to kill all 4.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
2. I am sure he would have been pleased with the outcome of killing all four
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:49 PM
Feb 2014

I am confident he did not act to protect any of the four.

And if I was guessing... but see, as a juror I cannot guess.

Anyone he shot, that fact right there is evidnce that the gun was pointed at them when fired. When someone is not shot, however, we lack that primary evidence of intent and get into guessing.

His malice is manifest. I think his actions vis-a-vis the other three are clearly at least assault with a deadly weapon. His actions are extraordinarily awful. But attempted murder with a gun reqires a speciffic intent and speciffic actions relating to each charge of attempted murder.

That is different from, say, a bomb. If he had thrown a hand grenade in the car it would be more clear-cut because, unlike a gun, a hand grenade doesn't involve much aiming.

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
4. Considering the wide spread between bullet holes I don't know that he was aiming at anyone specific
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:51 PM
Feb 2014

Yet he was taking an action that he knew could result in the death of any one of them, as far as I am concerned that is three clear cases of attempted murder and one case of second degree murder. I don't see clear evidence of premeditation so I would have a hard time convicting on first degree but I would definitely convict on second degree murder and three counts of attempted murder, I also wish I could convict on hate crime charges because the racial motivation seems obvious.

I think the real problem as to why this verdict is taking so long is that there are likely one or more jurors who support this murdering asshole just like many sick individuals supported George Zimmerman.

alsame

(7,784 posts)
6. I heard a legal analyst talking about
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:59 PM
Feb 2014

how this should have been charged as a hate crime but that Angela Corey is too afraid to make those charges

If you listen to the interview of his former neighbor - or even read Dunn's own letters from jail - it's obvious that the entire incident was racial.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
5. There are sure are a lot of people down south who think that "minorities are taking over"
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:53 PM
Feb 2014

and it wouldn't surprise me to find that one is on that jury and is worried about the backlash from his friends and family members and online etc should he put THAT guy in prison with Murder 1.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
9. seeing as the jury said they are hung up on one single charge
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 09:25 PM
Feb 2014

I think they have already decided on the attempted murder charges and are wrestling with the murder charge, hopefully between Murder 1 and Murder 2. I can see the difficulty in charging Murder 1 even though the law requires that only a second is necessary for there to be premeditation since most people believe that premeditation requires time and planning of length.

There is a lot of evidence and testimony to consider particularly discrepancies in Dunn's statements.

He'll be found guilty of something. The evidence in this case and Dunn's discrepancies in his stories as well as him never having called the police at any time even after his finding out that he had killed someone are overwhelming. A lot of convincing evidence is what Dunn did after leaving the scene. He claimed that he was terrified that this car full of "thugs" out to kill him would come to the hotel yet never called the police, parked in the front of the hotel, left his gun in the car and even walked his dog outside with no gun and obviously no fear which is just not believable that his claims of fear are true and goes to whether or not there was a gun and whether or not he REALLY believed there was.



Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
10. The jury did not actually say that although I can see how you interpreted it that way
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 09:41 PM
Feb 2014

What the jury did was ask a question as to whether they could hang on one charge and reach a verdict on the others. While this sounds similar to what you said there is one key difference, it was a question about process they did not actually say it was only one charge they were hung up on.

What I think is happening is that there is at least one person that does not want to convict, the other jurors are trying to negotiate a compromise. I believe there is at least one holdout and they are trying to convince that person to convict on the attempted murder charges but hang on the murder charge. Whether or not the hold out would accept such a deal is far from clear, my guess is that because they adjourned for the night without a verdict there is at least one very stubborn juror and while they are trying to negotiate with that person they are not having luck so far.

This is all speculation of course but that is what the signs point to for me.

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