They can't agree on Self Defense against Davis, because they believe Dunn's cock & bull story.

We may see the verdicts before the day is over. Then it will get buried amidst the holiday weekend's news, because people won't believe it happened again in Florida.

I haven't kept up on it...but I don't think he's going scott free...but will get less than he deserves. IMHO

Do they seriously want that lunatic out in public pulling shit like that again?

or why the questions are asked. In the Arias case there were hundreds of questions because in Arizona juries are allowed to ask questions of each witnesses anonymously (the questions are put in a basket, and the judge asks them of the witness for them to answer so no one knows which juror asked a certain question) and most of the questions scared the shit out of me. Yet they still rendered a Murder 1 verdict with the possibility of the death penalty. Many many of those questions seemed so clear that at least one person believed her hook line and sinker and was refusing to even look at the evidence that was presented. I have no idea why all those questions were asked nor what any juror was thinking when they asked them, but it still turned out to be the right verdict.

There's just no way to know what the reason for any questions are and the thought process behind them. It might easily be just clarification of the jury instructions since you need to fully understand one instruction before being able to understand the follow-up questions in the instructions. And with 34 pages of instructions that might be all there is to these questions. It is a self-defense case after all, so they have to be certain on exactly what that entails.

I would have a lot of self-defense related questions including the ones the jury asked though I'm eager for Dunn to be found guilty hopefully of the most harsh of the charges. I'd also want to know particulars about what the law considers self-defense that were mentioned by the prosecution such as timing for it to be premeditation, whether or not the defendant can assume what they see is a weapon or if they must be certain it is (Dunn saying he thought it could have been a stick or pipe, etc.). If "the weapon" still qualifies as a weapon whether he thinks it could have been a gun or a stick or a pipe and have self-defense still be justified (can a person defend themselves with deadly force whether the alleged weapon is a gun or some sort of beating instrument), does the alleged weapon need to be pointed at you or raised against you before self-defense is justified, if the defendant claimed that he fired after the victim retreated back into the car or started to is that still considered self-defense since the victim was retreating, etc. Yup, I'd have a LOT of self-defense related questions.

Personally, I don't believe that there was any weapon other than the one that the defendant used, and there's a good bit of evidence that backs that up both physical and circumstantial. I'd still have a lot of questions about the legal particulars of self-defense though, and if I was on the jury and there was anyone trying to argue that he legitimately was trying to defend himself I'd want my self-defense questions answered as ammunition to refute their arguments.

It's difficult not to have the hair on the back of the neck stand up seeing these questions, but after that Arias trial where most of the questions freaked me out that there could possibly be even one person on the jury that actually believed her it turned out that it wasn't at all the reasons for those questions being asked though I have really know idea why they were. As it turned out not a single one of them ever believed that it was self-defense.

in how to answer the questions the longer they went on the more it seemed that particular instruction was confusing though they say they struggled with the language for hours. After seeing that I'm also more inclined to think that it was about the charges concerning the surviving boys especially considering that after the questions were answered for the jury they came back in agreement on the attempt charges.

I still think they're hung up on the murder charge because of the premeditation aspect. Though personally I think it's deserving I think that it was just a real stretch to go that high. I've struggled myself with premeditation being able to occur in a split second since that's not what I've seen it described in other cases, but rather, enough time for the person to consider their actions - a split second just doesn't seem all that reasonable to me as the amount of time a person needed to consider their actions. Then again, since one of Dunn's stories was that he first fired at Davis as he was getting back into the car then I'd have to go with premeditation because that action would signify he was retreating and no longer an immediate threat at the time Dunn fired (all assuming that Dunn ever did get out of the car or had a weapon which I already don't believe but that some jurors might).

This is what I think might be happening, there is a holdout that does not want to convict of anything. Yesterday the jury asked a question as to whether they can hang on one count but issue verdicts on the other counts. I believe this question was made as an attempt to negotiate with the holdout.

Today we have the question as to whether the self defense claim applies to all the charges together or each charge needs to be judged seperately. Now if I was on this jury and I wanted to convict and there was one racist asshole that was trying to claim this was self defense, I might ask the judge the same questions asked above. Now I certainly don't believe any of Dunn's actions were in self defense, but I would still ask that question to put pressure on the holdout juror. If there is a holdout juror who does not want to convict of anything the judge's answer to this question puts pressure on this juror because now he or she does not just have to explain why self defense was needed against one person, now the juror is having to explain how all four of the people in the vehicle posed threats to Michael Dunn.

If this is the scenario that is playing out then that question could increase the chances of breaking a holdout juror and winning a conviction on the attempted murder charges.

This is all speculation of course, but I think it is a plausible scenario.

And if they convict on some and hang on the murder charge they can try him again for that.

But if I were on the jury and there was some asshole that thought this was justified, I would much rather try to negotiate a deal like that than fail to convict on anything. The murder charge probably would be retried as well, this case has gotten too much attention for them to just drop it.

Outside of an acquittal on all charges or a hung jury he's done.

Can you imagine how miserable he will be in prison?

It's miserable enough but he will have no allies because he killed a black kid and he's too soft to be embraced by the Aryans.

Listen to the interview with Dunn's neighbor, the guy sounds like he has been a "tough guy" violent asshole for years. He fits right in with the Aryans, his problem is that the Aryans are the only people who will like him, every minority and non-racist white person in the prison will hate the guy.

Though. Wtf is he saying to everyone else- let's believe his third story only? And no one, or nothing else? Bizarre!

... the US criminal justice system would work ... until I saw a clip of the judge answering the jury questions.

#3 scares the hell out of me (and sickens me to the depth of my being). I am hoping that somehow I am misreading the intent of the question.

I feel my hope and sense of the world around me fading.

People just seem to think that killing people for bullshit reasons is OK now - at least from jury results of late.

at all..

It's open season on unarmed black kids in Florida.

Thanks Nancy.

Please do the right thing jury.

I could see a lot of the father, but wasn't sure I ever saw the mother with camera angles and heads being in the way. I assume she was sitting right on Mr. Davis' left, and if so I could never see that person. Every time they showed Mr. Davis I just wanted to hug the man. He always looked like he was dying inside while desperately struggling to put a stoic face on. I just can't imagine how horrible this is for them to sit through. Of all I watched of the trial it was seeing his father sitting there that made my heart break. No parent should ever ever ever have to suffer such a terrible evil crime losing their child and having to sit through all this.

crock of "I feared for my life". I guess in Florida if a young black man gets out of his car, wears a hoodie or has the temerity to walk down the street it is now justification to fear for your life and gun him down. If I were young and black and male living in Florida, I would get out of that state as fast as possible.

It is hard not to read these questions and worry.

Which means they will hang on the main charge. Hopefully they can agree on all attempted charges, which will still mean many years and then re-try the murder alone. Maybe the prosecution will get it right on a second go - bring in the witnesses who say he is violent. I just can't believe there is even one person buying his rehearsed crock.

That young black man was shot to death inside his car, with no weapon, in cold blood.

losing one's life in the state of FL (and around the country). Who knew we could slide backward 60 years in the space of 5?

Why don't they just legalize lynching and be done with it?

More like 40 years; ever since St. Ronnie started the downhill slide.

so I didn't know if they said he got out of the car or not. I guess I was buying that part of the murderer's testimony that he got out of the car and dove back in when he saw the gun. In any event, he was in the car when shot - which ain't much like any self-defense argument I can imagine. But apparently there is one juror at least who thinks they were listening to "thug" music and that alone is grounds to fear for one's life.

She said there was NO WAY he was outside the car based on the bullet trajectories and wounds on his body.

We win if this person is put away for a very very long time. I don't really care what is at the top of the page. There may be a hung jury on the murder charge and the assault on that one person.
There is no way they are going to acquit him of second degree murder. The state will have a lot of time to take another go at him on that charge.

down the road, the white people will be the minorities in this country. You can already tell that the conservative, gun nut, racists are going to be dragged kicking and screaming into minority status. They know it is coming and they don't like it one bit. That is why they try to pass laws now to deny so many people their rights, including the right to vote. That is why they buy into the scenario that the white man is so terrified of the black man/boy.

allowed the minority to control the majority in SA for so long was access to better weapons. Kind of like the US relying on our military to try to maintain a superior position in world despite that we are crumbling internally.

I'm just hoping they've decided on the big charges and are working their way through the lesser ones.

I doubt he will forgive her for testifying against him. According to the neighbor's interview, Dunn does not have a good track record for how he treated wives # 1 & 2. She will be the stupid if she stays with him.

He was a wife beater and a regular know it all son of a bitch. Both women he was married to had gone to the next door neighbor in fear of their lives from having a gun put to their heads. So you get the picture of Mr feared for his life over loud music tough guy. Are they all sniveling cowards in Florida?

then why didn't dunn call 911?

They can both be true. Meaning if he was truly in fear of his life you would have thought as he was driving away he was on the phone with 911.

I don't have much hope that this jury will convict.

After listening to the neighbors video on this guy, he's a pretty sick fucker and he knew one day he was going to kill someone.

Just the fact that he just drove away after emptying his gun into a car full of kids, killing one, then goes and gets a pizza without calling 911 should put him away for several years.

Isn't that called depraved indifference to life of another, or extreme negilence or something?

on the board. There is no way one could. He left the scene without calling 911 and then ordered a fucking pizza? Who does that after they've shot into a car full of kids? I hit a squirrel last week on the way to the grocery store and had to collect myself for a few minutes.

That basically sounds as if it was written by one of those 90% of racists that don;t even know that they're racists.

Frankly I think Dunn performed amazingly well on the stand and I also think he is simply innocent here. I think his actions in the wake of the most stressful event in his life are certainly regrettable, but when you consider the state he was in emotionally and mentally, and think of it in a framework of putting off something you are really dreading (I’ll call the cops soon, I just will take care of this first… putting it off, putting it off, because of being a coward basically) I think it can be understood in that context.

I still think he will probably get smacked with a nasty conviction of some sort, but I believe now more than ever (I’ve been very on the fence about this case from the start but have, over time, moved more and more toward Dunn’s corner) that such a conviction will be a miscarriage of justice.

I believe that you cannot divorce the Trayvon case from this. Those prosecutors are looking at this as their second bite at the apple. The entire Florida justice system is worried about doubling up on this, especially since this case is less clear cut self-defense than Zimmerman. And you had better believe Jacksonville Sheriff’s Department was keenly aware of what was going on down in Sanford at the PD there in the months leading up to Davis’ shooting, and even ongoing at that time.

Think they wanted to give Dunn any sort of fair hearing or benefit of the doubt, or go search for a weapon right away? Think they wanted to to be the next place with protesters in the lobby and think anyone there wanted to share Chief Bill Lee’s fate? Think they wanted national media attention and hatred for not being harsh enough on Dunn?

Think the jurors aren’t aware of the Zimmerman verdict and that it won’t be playing in the back of their minds?

The absolute corruption of the justice process which was the Trayvon fiasco, is not done yet. It also sets a horrible precedent forever. Whine loud enough, we’ll bring unwarranted charges on an innocent man, and treat another innocent man harsher some months later.

There's also this comment, which relies on a particularly twisted form of logic:
Let’s say that M. Dunn did not see a gun or anything resembling a gun. Why then did he reach into the glove box, load his pistol, and fire off 10 shots? Why would a relatively soft-spoken man with no history of violent behavior do something so uncharacteristic? There is nothing to indicate that his judgment was impaired by alcohol (though, I suppose, it could have been). Even if he invented the gun story later (which I think he did) to justify his actions, he chose to riddle the Durango with bullets for some reason. Why? Just because J. Davis hurled the F-bomb? Is that all it took? Or did he have some kind of irrational fear? (Perhaps the person who posted earlier is correct in suggesting that M. Dunn should have undergone a psychiatric evaluation.)

Frankly, Dunn's Internet defenders all seem a little batshit: gun extremists who would justify literally any self-defense claim and closet racists who think it's perfectly normal to perceive all black kids as "thugs."

"...a relatively soft-spoken man with no history of violent behavior..."

After OJ. It was then I knew it was not equal justice under the law. I knew then, it was being a credible liar, with no conscience, and a shit ton of money. You buy justice in America.

I.E.: Bush v. Gore

in the US. Except that they are criminal and there is little justice to be had in those systems.

If they aquit this murderer, I will never ever go to Florida. I'm too black and I listen to T.I. Too loud in the car. I also like gum and candy, and if you tell me to turn it down I usually laugh and I'll call you gramps. I also think Bob Marley should be played at at least 25 at all times. Imagine if I pulled up to that gas station playing troubleman... My husband might get shot.

Stand your ground is just code for legal lynchings. Thanks ALEC!

Morons, morons, morons.

sorry, but that's a cold fact.

And if you think Kansas is done harassing gay people, and women who want control over their own bodies, and teachers who want to teach biological science . . .

funny how you gun-lovers keep dancing in these threads around that point.

just come out and say it. you think it was a good shoot, right?

Forgive me if I don't judge others (the jurors) on actions they've yet to comment

Oh, and I don't own or care to own a gun.

But tolerance is not a la carte.

Enjoy your hatred

and, yes, the fact that self-defense is the sticking point after 20+ hours of deliberation indicates at least one racist, sheet-wearing, cross-burning miscreant is on that jury.

given your constant barrage of NRA-talking points since joining. Including your pro-George Zimmerman talking points, so yeah totally unsurprising to see you amongst the "Dunn might be innocent but afraid to say it" crowd. Not coincidentally, all of whom happen to belong to Team RKBA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3545247

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3542119

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3542957

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3542583

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3525994

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3307342

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=136157

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4387548

So, unsurprising to see you trying to tacitly support the credibility of a self-defense finding of a racist drunk idiot unloading his gun into a car of unarmed black teenagers.

Hit list for me

Does it include the post about this case where I said I thought it was a slam dunk for the prosecution. Or the one where I thought they would deliberate for 1hr.

No?

Ok, in all those Zimmerman post can you find one where I supported Zimmerman?

No?

Enjoy hating hater, it's what you gotta do

Hence my prediction of a 1hr deliberation.


When the guy didn't call the cops and left the scene he hung a big guilty sign on himself.


As for my post. Yeah, I stand by everything I said. It was one of my better posts. But sorry to say, it's not in support of Zimmerman. I know you don't believe that, but I'll be fine.

Keep hatin'

And not having a fit.

So was Zimmerman.

to warrant using "self defense" if you are a white person. What. The. Fuck.

WTF?

at least not in the terms that the remainder of the country understands the legal concept of self-defense. That's why Stand Your Ground is such an evil and dangerous concept to introduce to the legal system. It vests a great deal of deference to the subjective state of mind of the defendant. That's why I suspect the jury is having such a difficult time evaluating this case. The jury instructions are confusing and I frankly find the entire concept a frightening bastardization of the long-established principals of self-defense.

Right now we're seeing it play out in the context of "scary young black men". Who will be next? Over time, if this law stands, who knows what kind of incidents will crop up. The subjective nature of the law also carries with it a substantial risk for misuse where a defendant only needs to raise the claim and if the victim is a member of a perceived "threatening group" they can escape responsibility. But there are all kinds of scenarios you could imagine where shooting someone could fall within this law. We've already seen that it doesn't need to be an armed threat or that the shooter can actually initiate the confrontation and then claim the protections of this law when their aggression doesn't play out as planned. This law needs to go.

to prison for killing black kids, because some white people view all young black men as likely attackers.

And Dunn is exactly the kind of human IED the law was designed to create.

What I don't get is why the teens didn't pick up on the fact that an old white guy somehow dared to give them shit about their loud music—in Florida no less, and after Trayvon Martin and the theater cell phone vigilante.

I also don't get why Dunn would shoot into the vehicle unless he really saw a gun or was truly just a homicidal maniac. He is a concealed carry numbskull. That means that yes, he could be a homicidal maniac, because homicidal maniacs are going to be a huge percentage of the concealed carry community. But it also means he would probably be an SYG expert who would know the rules for his "hunting license."

This could go either way, but I would bet on a hung jury or an acquittal, unfortunately. If the Durango hadn't left the scene, I would say that this would be a case where SYG would take a hit and we would start to see where juries and voters draw the line. It's crazy. If you leave the scene to avoid getting shot, you leave open the possibility that you ditched a gun. Under SYG, if someone is shooting at you and kills one of your friends, you have to hang around to prove you weren't an assailant.

I think the fact that Dunn was a concealed carry guy probably works against him. At least I hope so. That drastically increases the likelihood that he is just a pathetic, trigger-happy nut looking for trouble. I just don't know if the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold is reached.

I don't watch it, but it might just be interesting to hear their convoluted version.

When does the popcorn killer get his "get out of jail free card"?

Black AOK. White not so much.

He might not be as lucky. Killed a 40 something white man who is a father. Not the scary black 17 year old.

Not "fine upstanding white people"

These defenses appear to be predicated on the belief that people of color (especially black males) are a threat solely based on their existence

Clear and precise answers. No wiggle room.

telling the truth.

Anyone who says a good story and a GREAT LYING job on the stand won't get you anywhere, is wrong.

Perjury means nothing to a guy like Dunn, and it looks like he achieved his goal. Hung jury on all the murder charges thanks to Florida's stand your ground.