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deminks

(11,018 posts)
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:07 PM Mar 2012

ALEC Has Pushed The NRA's "Stand Your Ground" Law Across The Nation

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201203210004

The legislation apparently preventing the successful prosecution of Trayvon Martin's killer was reportedly adopted by the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) as model legislation that the shadowy group has spent years promoting across the country with the help of their allies in the National Rifle Association.

Formed in 1973 by conservative activists including Paul Weyrich and state legislators like then-Illinois State Rep. Henry Hyde, ALEC has earned infamy throughout the progressive movement for its ability to promote model legislation favorable to its corporate funders through statehouses across the country.

Legal experts have noted that Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law may prevent George Zimmerman from ever being successfully prosecuted for the killing of Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman has claimed that he acted in self-defense, and court precedent indicates that the State has the heavy burden of disproving this in order to win a conviction.

Florida's statute on the use of force in self-defense is virtually identical to Section 1 of ALEC's Castle Doctrine Act model legislation as posted on the Center for Media and Democracy (CMD). According to CMD, the model bill was adopted by ALEC's Civil Justice Task in August 2005 -- just a few short months after it passed the Florida legislature -- and approved by its board of directors the following month.

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ALEC Has Pushed The NRA's "Stand Your Ground" Law Across The Nation (Original Post) deminks Mar 2012 OP
So iced tea and skittles are now lethal weapons? Blue Owl Mar 2012 #1
Bingo. TheWraith Mar 2012 #3
a belief. Your defense can simply be that you believed yourself to be in peril. Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #9
Not quite. Would a reasonable person believe the same thing. X_Digger Mar 2012 #11
Again, no. The definition is a REASONABLE belief of DEATH or severe bodily harm. TheWraith Mar 2012 #12
So like others you are assuming honest actors. Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #17
No, I'm assuming the law says what the law actually says. TheWraith Mar 2012 #20
You again seem to not grasp the simple fact that these laws open a huge Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #24
That portion of the law is not new, nor has it been problematic in the past. X_Digger Mar 2012 #25
New since 2005. Stand your ground outside your home. Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #26
The part discussed above is not new- "REASONABLE belief of DEATH or severe bodily harm" X_Digger Mar 2012 #28
It's obvious that "being black" was Zimmerman's reason for murder. The Wielding Truth Mar 2012 #21
Once again, "stand your ground" laws have NOTHING to do with this. TheWraith Mar 2012 #2
why do you think ALEC is reportedly pushing it? CTyankee Mar 2012 #5
yes it does Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #8
Wrong. The police haven't arrested Zimmerman because they're covering up for him. TheWraith Mar 2012 #14
And, when the inevitable happened gratuitous Mar 2012 #4
Koch Industries (Source Watch/CMD page) bobthedrummer Mar 2012 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author JohnnyRingo Mar 2012 #7
"Stand your ground" laws have everything to do with this... Permanut Mar 2012 #10
he's lying - leftyohiolib Mar 2012 #16
So what? Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #18
i know leftyohiolib Mar 2012 #22
We should all turn ourselves in to our local police stations Lawlbringer Mar 2012 #13
we should be allowed to shoot people with guns so they dont shoot us 1st leftyohiolib Mar 2012 #15
wouldn't you need to be a person with a gun in order to do so... belcffub Mar 2012 #19
yes the catch22 in my post didnt escape me the irony was intentional leftyohiolib Mar 2012 #23
How surprised should I pretend to be? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2012 #27
great law isn't it... a perfect way to drive up gun sales fascisthunter Mar 2012 #29
HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Mar 2012 #30

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
3. Bingo.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:15 PM
Mar 2012

The requirements for lethal self defense are the same as they've ever been, including that you be defending against a reasonable fear of death or severe bodily harm. Not even remotely the case here.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
9. a belief. Your defense can simply be that you believed yourself to be in peril.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:29 PM
Mar 2012

Zimmerman claimed that Martin attacked him, that attack put him in peril, that peril justified shooting Martin. That is why the police did not arrest him. Under Florida law, what he did was legal.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
11. Not quite. Would a reasonable person believe the same thing.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:32 PM
Mar 2012

Not to mention, Florida's law precludes this defense for an aggressor who initiates the violence, for the most part.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
12. Again, no. The definition is a REASONABLE belief of DEATH or severe bodily harm.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 01:16 PM
Mar 2012

A severely paranoid person seeing a personal enemy walk up to them might imagine that that person was about to kill them, but that's not a REASONABLE belief.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
17. So like others you are assuming honest actors.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 01:49 PM
Mar 2012

The problem is that these laws are easily exploitable by dishonest actors. There is the huge benefit that frequently only one party to the dispute (assuming the victim dies during the incident) is relating what happened. A dishonest actor abusing stand your ground can succeed in murdering a person as long as his victims dies quickly and there are no other witnesses. He only has to claim that his life was in peril, that he was not the aggressor.

Zimmerman, in my opinion, attempted to do exactly this, and so far has gotten away with it. His claim was that Martin attacked him while he was following Martin. He made Martin the aggressor, and unless the other evidence is compelling that Zimmerman is lying, he will get away with murder.

Sociopaths looking for ways to kill without getting convicted will have and are having a field day with stand your ground.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
20. No, I'm assuming the law says what the law actually says.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 02:00 PM
Mar 2012

Instead of assuming it says something completely different. The law, in this case, is not ambiguous and does not by any stretch of the imagination cover cases like this. Nor is the law in Florida different in any significant way from self defense laws in virtually every other state. You seem hell bent on blaming the law for this rather than the person who appears to have committed murder, and who I very much doubt is going to get away with it.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
24. You again seem to not grasp the simple fact that these laws open a huge
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 04:11 PM
Mar 2012

hole which an unscrupulous individual can exploit and successfully commit murder and get away with it.

What the law says is that if YOU reasonably believe your life is in peril you may kill the person causing you to believe that. If YOU are the only witness to the incident it is VERY LIKELY that you will get away with murder. This isnt difficult or complicated. Even the "must retreat" laws had a similar problem, the difference here is that it is now much easier for a sociopathic individual to get away with murder.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
25. That portion of the law is not new, nor has it been problematic in the past.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 04:18 PM
Mar 2012

And I doubt that will change any time soon- that's the heart of most self-defense statutes.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
26. New since 2005. Stand your ground outside your home.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 05:22 PM
Mar 2012

"Florida averaged 12 deaths by "justifiable" homicide in the four years -- 2000 to 2004 -- preceding the passage of Stand Your Ground, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Afterwards, the number of "justifiable" deaths almost tripled to an average of 35 per year between 2005 and 2010."

Nothing to see here, move along.

source: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/317624/20120321/floirda-stand-ground-law-explained.htm

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
28. The part discussed above is not new- "REASONABLE belief of DEATH or severe bodily harm"
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 05:25 PM
Mar 2012

Which, as much as 'stand your ground' seems to be what you take issue with.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
2. Once again, "stand your ground" laws have NOTHING to do with this.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:13 PM
Mar 2012

"Stand your ground"--which is the law in something like 43 states if I recall correctly--simply means you aren't legally obligated to try to run away from an attacker instead of defending yourself. It does not in ANY WAY cover what happened in Florida: it's on the local police's attempts to cover up the crime, pure and simple, that Zimmerman hasn't been arrested and charged yet.

CTyankee

(63,914 posts)
5. why do you think ALEC is reportedly pushing it?
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:16 PM
Mar 2012

It seems like an odd thing in ALEC's box of goodies. Can you think of a reason that ALEC would bother with such a matter? I'm scratching my head here...

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
8. yes it does
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:27 PM
Mar 2012

These laws provide a huge window through which a dishonest actor, such as Zimmerman, can abuse a self defense claim and get away with it. Arguing that these laws do not have this effect, when the Florida law clearly has had exactly that effect in the Martin killing, is ridiculous. The police did not and have not arrested Zimmerman because of this law. Unless there is compelling evidence that disputes his claim that he acted in self defense under the Florida Law, he will get away with murdering Martin. And so will others. These laws assume honest actors. These laws are full of shit.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
14. Wrong. The police haven't arrested Zimmerman because they're covering up for him.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 01:20 PM
Mar 2012

Regardless of what some people want to stir up panic over, there is no possible stretch of definition that places this case as self defense. Both because there is no reasonable fear of death, and because Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, both of which are disqualifiers.

Let me put it this way: suppose someone got caught smuggling 5,000 pounds of marijuana across the border from Mexico into California, and they then claimed that it was for medicinal use. That would be about as relevant to medical marijuana laws as this is to self defense laws. It's a paper-thin cover story, one which no one familiar with the law would accept for even a fraction of a second.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
4. And, when the inevitable happened
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:15 PM
Mar 2012

The law's authors in Florida are all over themselves, trying to distance their pet legislation from its foreseeable consequence. From what I can tell, the only reason this instance has come under scrutiny is because of the actual sound record of Zimmerman's encounter with Martin. The local police were perfectly willing to sweep the body under the rug, but for some reason, I have my doubts that this is the first instance of someone shooting first, because no questions would ever be asked, at the time or later.

Response to deminks (Original post)

Permanut

(5,666 posts)
10. "Stand your ground" laws have everything to do with this...
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:29 PM
Mar 2012

The law allows you to defend yourself in certain situations; Zimmerman claims he was defending himself.

Lawlbringer

(550 posts)
13. We should all turn ourselves in to our local police stations
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 01:17 PM
Mar 2012

in droves, to be arrested for possession of Iced Tea and Skittles.

 

fascisthunter

(29,381 posts)
29. great law isn't it... a perfect way to drive up gun sales
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 05:33 PM
Mar 2012

oh... and you'll be seeing gun nuts say the murder had nothing to do with the law. Gotta love how sociopaths operate.

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