How many redundancies in that sentence?

I guess there's no physical fitness standards for the Austin PD.

Not that their behavior is acceptable. It isn't.

and our teachers too little, this is the end result. When we spend more sending non-violent "criminals" to jail than we spend on educating children, this is the end result.

disparity of pay between cops and teachers. I don't know if things have changed, but one of the reasons the cops were so corrupt in New Orleans at the time of Katrina is because their average wage was about $12/hour.

Because the cops in the NOPD were corrupt (see my story below) WAY before the pay slashing. I lived in Gretna and went to school at UNO so I had to drive through Orleans Parish every day. The French Quarter is under NOPD jurisdiction. I can tell you things that would make you want to retch.

Abuse of power and a culture of corruption had *NOTHING* to do with the low pay, it had to do with the fact that graft was (and probably still is) a part of the civil and police leadership.

When a cop brings a paper sack with $25,000 in cash to buy a car, something isn't right. They didn't do it in Orleans Parish - they came over to Jefferson Parish to do it. How do I know? I was there and worked at the dealership at the time.

NOLA police department is only about low pay. My point is to tell you that cops are not universally paid more than teachers.

And I will add that not all cops and police department and sheriff's are corrupt. I do know tgat it is more common in the south however.

My two brothers are cops and they have never had bags full of cash.

and I am familiar with the NOPD, which is the example you chose to bring up.

comparing the pay of teachers to cops. I wish I had not brought up the NOLA police department. I know of many police officers who do not make what teachers do, and they work 12 months a year.

Of course I'm fairly certain that both teachers and LEO in Minnesota, on average, make more than their counter parts in Mississippi.

but in other areas, LEO make FAR more than teachers. I can assert that because my sister is a teacher.

As a country, it is a FACT that we spend more on imprisoning people than we do on education. We have 5% of the world's population, but 25% of it's prison population. If that isn't alarming to you and indicative that we are off the rails as a society, it should be. When the only justification for such numbers is "well, at least we don't just execute people outright, we just ruin their lives" and "private prison corporations reap big profits", we aren't on our way to being a police state. We ARE one.

And we do execute people, regularly, via LEO's and they regularly get either a slap on the wrist with a paid vacation or stress pay for brutalizing people. Remember the cop that pepper-sprayed the college students that were just sitting there? He got a bunch of pay for the "stress" it caused him.

Do teachers get "stress" pay for being verbally abused and occasionally physically assaulted by students? I can answer that question: No.

law enforcement, the courts, and the penal systems.

We have a pretty good education system in Minnesota, half of our state budget goes to our schools.

that we spend way too much money, time and energy as a country to lock people up than we do to educate our children and young adults.

There is no confusion there whatsoever. Throwing a child's lunch in the trash because they don't have enough money in their account? Grabbing a young woman that is jogging from behind when she is wearing headphones, and arresting her for "jaywalking", if she was even guilty of that?

A police officer shot and killed a 17 year old two days ago that opened the door with a Wii remote in his hand. A young man that was in ROTC and was planning on joining the Marines after graduation. Are you going to explain how he deserved to be shot because he opened the door with a Wii remote?

We need far less punitive measures and far more educational services, not to mention health care services. For what we pay to lock up people for non-violent crimes, we could have the best educated society in the world. No, instead we worship violence, punitive measures and incarceration - for everyone but some of the ones that deserve it the most.

The topic we were exchanging ideas about is the pay of teachers and police officers.

I would be interested in links you have that compares the annual U.S. expenditures of the penal system and education. I know in Minnesota, it is not even close, we spend much more on education.

You can't ignore the costs of our penal system in locking people up after the fact when the police arrest them. It's part and parcel of the same problem.

But since you so ardently believe that your state is different than every other one:

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/Minnesota_state_spending.html

Total Spending 2014 - 59.7 Billion


http://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2012/07/could-minnesota-safely-cut-prison-sentences-and-save-money

Annual state spending on corrections now tops $51 billion, with prisons accounting for the vast majority of the cost.

That's for 2011. I'll hunt for 2014, but when you are even spending nearly as much on corrections as you are on education, something is wrong. Yes, Jenoch, even in your state.

Oh, and by the way, since you offered Mississippi as a choice, our expenditure on corrections per capita is lower than MN's. Just for reference.

on Minnesota spending. Spending on corrections = $456 million/year, spending on education = $16.4 billion/year.

I'm getting tired of this, but you can go ahead if you wish to.

But the fact is we incarcerate 25% of the world's population and are only 5% of it. Are we that much more lawless than everyone else in the world, or are there other factors at work?

I wonder, what percentage of the world's criminals do we have in our population? Both violent and non-violent.

Gotta love MIRT.

what did it say?

That's why it is gone. Poof!

Not worth looking at.

Was it the same person?

I'm getting this distinct feeling that someone doesn't like me.

Seriously, what in the blue blazes fuck?

There is NO way they could have kept up with her. I hate these "pigs".

My disgust runneth over.

"Texas Police shoot and Kill Jogger for Jaywalking and No I-d." I would almost expect it, these days. I am sure it will happen soon enough, unfortunately.

Police officer: "We have no time for this" ...blam!

surely that calls for her execution because she inconvenienced an officer!

She didn't know who was grabbing her, so she jerked away. That's when they took her down.

to beat people down on the street if they are hearing impaired or can't hear due to being jogging with ear phones, and arrest them because they crossed the street at the wrong time (but we don't even know if she WAS jaywalking).

My God what is our nation coming to, PNWMOM?

support this kind of police thuggery.

Take a look at that photo. Those Gomers can't run.

and claimed she robbed a store or pointed a gun at somebody.

Is that a Texas law? Does everyone need to have a Texas I.D., whether they drive or go to school or work for the state or not and have it on them at all times?

Does everyone in Texas know this?

Haele

Last edited Fri Feb 21, 2014, 05:17 PM - Edit history (1)

until AFTER you've been arrested.

I never carry ID when I walk my dog in the morning. Of course after they shoot my dog (you know how those dangerous border collies are) and I try to scratch their eyes out I'll either be on the way to the hospital, dead, or charged with a crime anyway.

is clearly a sign that you are up to no good. The dog just indicates that you have ill intentions toward the police officers that spot you outside.

Unless you are a police officer - then none of that applies to you.

They are not the same thing.

No state requires you to carry ID on you. Some require you to identify yourself to police if they request it.

by dragging her down the fucking street, scaring the hell out of her and arresting her because she crossed the road in the wrong place on foot without having an ID on her, didn't they?

Not to mention, in Texas, you don't even have to say who you are because you are not required to do so until you are arrested.

But hey, I'm sure you carry ID on you even when you go out to collect the paper. If you break the law when you do it, and happen to be without ID, I'm sure you will be A-Okay with being dragged down the street screaming and arrested. Right?

Unless you are a cop. Then laws do not apply to you. You can shoot a person because "you don't have time for this" and will get a paid vacation out of it. Or beat the shit out of someone. Because they are the enforcers of compliance, right?

Unfortunately, they probably didn't do anything legally wrong in this case - from the article, she was on the campus of UT, and the campus rules require you to provide ID to the police if they ask for it.

I am not saying I condone what they did in the slightest - just pointing out the details they used to be able to legally get away with it.

NOT Austin PD. And certainly not for jogging and crossing the road in the wrong place. If I were her? I'd be in a lawyer's office right now.

I know that where I am the local PD and the university police have such an arrangement where they have common jurisdiction over certain areas. My guess is the arrest/detainment ends up being trespass related so it can be justified (or at least an attempt made to justify it).

I agree - she should be in a lawyer's office right now (not a defense attorney either).

I believe there is a difference. It's not like she was on the quad.

and Austin PD didn't have the jurisdiction to do this. UT Campus Police could demand ID, but then it would be an issue for the University that she didn't have ID. It certainly wasn't a violation that necessitated harassment, dragging her bodily down the street and arrest.

Somebody is going to get their ass sued, and unfortunately, the taxpayers in Austin will foot the bill while the cops that pulled this stunt take a paid vacation.

My point is, I don't think people have to surrender rights on public streets that cut through a campus. School property? Sure. But not city owned streets.

HBS, so I couldn't tell you what they look like today. I only know what the article states.

The main street (Guadalupe) bordering the campus is one street over from where this took place. The building behind them is The Castilian, an off-campus, privately-owned dormitory.

She didn't give up her civil rights to not be assaulted and arrested in the street no matter where she was.

Campus cops shouldn't have jurisdiction on the store side of the street though

So they grabbed her FROM BEHIND and she jerked away -- as anyone would, not not knowing who was grabbing them. Then they took her down.

In my state (AZ) you do not have to have i.d. on you. You must provide your legal name to an officer if he has a reasonable basis to think you have committed or are about to commit a crime.

and do not have an ID on you? and the suspect crime is illegal entry?

Arpaio shrugs off his arrest of an innocent American girl
If you're Hispanic in Maricopa County, Sheriff Joe's goons have probable cause to arrest you on suspicion of being undocumented. Hey, they can always release you later.

That's the word from the elephant's mouth after an MCSO raid on four area McDonald's yesterday that netted an American citizen, Viridiana Ramirez, who was cuffed and held for four hours as she pleaded with MCSO thugs that she was born in this country and could prove it.

What was Arpaio's response to the news that his Kris Kobach-trained deputies has violated the civil rights of a single mother and terrorized her no end?

"That's just normal police work, " he shrugged in a news conference following the raid. "Sometimes you do have probable cause, you do take people in for questioning, and they're released."

So it's arrest 'em if they're brown first, and sort 'em out later. False arrest and imprisonment be damned.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2010/03/joe_arpaio_on_false_mcdonalds.php

identify yourself like you pointed out.

IMO I should never have to identify myself to a police officer unless under arrest. Or have any interaction with the police unless under arrest.

Not detained for questioning etc., but "if lawfully arrested".

I wonder where these idiots stand? Did they "lawfully" arrest her? If not, I'd say there will be a large lawsuit coming at them.

What jerks. Pretentions of power.

This is a tricky issue. As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind. You've probably seen old movies where the protagonist is approached by a Nazi or Soviet guard and ordered to "show your papers." We know that's a tell-tale sign of a police state. So if police ever ask you to show ID during your travels, it's natural to feel violated.

In a free society, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, in the United States there's no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

So when can police ask for ID?

Carrying an ID is generally required if you're driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the slippery premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.

From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to reveal their identity when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as "stop-and-identify" statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

As of 2012, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state's law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you're involved in illegal activity.

But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. So one way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you're free to go. You can do this by saying "Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?" If the officer says you're free to go, leave immediately and don't answer any more questions.

If you're detained, you'll have to decide if withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you're on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state's laws can help you make the best choice.

Remember that the officer's decision to detain you will not always hold up in court. Reasonable suspicion is a vague legal standard, and police often make mistakes. So if you're searched or arrested following an officer's ID request, you may contact an attorney to discuss the incident and explore your legal options.

http://www.knowmyrights.org/knowledgebase/faq/police-encounters/when-do-i-have-to-show-id

If police need your identity, you only have to provide it verbally.

but a few in this very thread have expressed agreement with the fact that jogging without your ID, and committing the major crime of crossing the street in the wrong place on foot means you should get dragged down the street and arrested.

And they love harsh penalties.

Before I go on - please don't confuse what I say with any sort of endorsement or stamp of approval upon what the police did. It was a ridiculous abuse of power and waste of time on their part. I am just explaining how I think it was justified by them...

The person who filmed it said that the jogger was going through the west campus - that intersection the filmer was at is in an area sort of surrounded by the campus.

According the the UT rules:
"Upon request of a member of The University of Texas Police Department or any officer of the university, an individual on university premises may be required to provide information and documentation to establish their identification and affiliation with the university."

While these were Austin PD officer, it is likely that Austin PD and the UT Police have a cooperative agreement allowing them to operate under the others jurisdiction.

So, in this case, she actually was required to have ID to present to the officers else she could be considered a trespasser on the campus.

Again - I am in no way condoning what they did - just pointing out that there was a pretty special set of circumstances that allowed them to do it legally.

Austin PD didn't have jurisdiction there. I am familiar with abuse by police officers of jurisdiction. I had to call the police in my area because I was being threatened with arrest in my place of employment by NOPD officers because of a traffic accident - where they TOLD me and the other driver to exchange information and get off the bridge (it was a minor fender bender, both cars were mobile, but I was always told to wait for the police). I did, and then they came and tried to arrest me for hit and run - in another parish entirely, in another city entirely.

The Gretna police escorted their arrogant asses right off the property. If I had been at home with no witnesses, I can only imagine what would have happened.

And they will have a photo of you as well. Only time I remember you could be escorted off campus was if you REFUSED to identify yourself.

and they can choose not to use it and be abusive assholes as well.

Premises: a house or building, together with its land and outbuildings, occupied by a business or considered in an official context: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/premises

If Indpndnt is right in #102 that " The building behind them is The Castilian, an off-campus, privately-owned dormitory", then I don't think you can call the road 'premises'.

Was that the location the filmer was at is not campus property but if you head a block or so in any direction you may be on campus property.

The roads and sidewalks are not university premises there.

is either off campus, or perhaps on a unit used by U.T. At least 40 yrs ago (may be sold now). For what it's worth, this may be a blk off-campus.

There are properties scattered in that area that are part of campus. It is on the very edge of the campus but in places if you go a block east or a block west you can be back on UT property.

1 - Broke law, i.e. jaywalking
2 - When being ticketed for jaywalking can't produce a valid id
3 - Is taken into custody for breaking the law and not having a valid id.

Appears straight forward.

Despite your claim in #3, police can't just shout "Papers, Please!!".

the cops should be fired

the bullshit that some folks will defend for the police/authoritarian state. If anyone wonders why people get cynical, it's because of those that rise up to defend bullshit like this.

How do those boots taste?

crossing the damn street in the wrong place in the middle of the day. WTF is wrong with people if they think that warrants bodily dragging a person down the street to the point where they are crying and arresting them?

There's fucked up, and then there is plain completely, out-of-control fucked up.

You're required to provide them with information about your identity after you've been arrested in Texas. That's not the same as saying you're required to show them any documents. I believe you are allowed to just TELL them who you are and where you live in order to comply with the law.

There are no requirements for having an ID on you in the state of Texas if you are a pedestrian. There is a law requiring you to ID yourself verbally to police if you're being arrested.

I don't know about you, but I'm not eager to lose all of my ID if it falls out of my pocket. Which did happen to me once when I was rollerblading. Are you saying that I should be taken into custody for that if I commit a minor offense like jaywalking?

If so, I hope you realize that you probably have broken some minor law today and that will apply to you, too. Unless, of course, you are in law enforcement, then the rules don't apply to you.

"Appears straight forward..."

I imagine "straightforward" is how many people rationalize the Kafkaesque...

you post.

Not like anyone would notice the headphones and think "Gee, grabbing someone from behind is an escalation". At least she wasn't hearing impaired - that would have warranted beating her nearly to death on the street requiring a hospital stay as happened to a hearing impaired young man the other day.

The citizen didn't comply immediately, regardless of the situation, so it was the officer's duty to take her down and arrest her because she wasn't calm and compliant enough, I guess.

police have created an environment where the average citizen is more and more, considering them not only as adversarial, but also as violent and outright dangerous to our well being.

It's no surprise to me that many of the corporate police across this country do not want to be recorded while "doing their duty." "To protect themselves from getting caught serving out punishment." That should be their new slogan.

The only thing that would make this headline news, would be if this young ladies father were a billionaire......also, that might start investigations into police abuses of the regular folk across this nation.
Lou

I think a lot of this comes from the police being squeezed to make as much money as they can from tickets and fines. The unfortunate byproduct is that everything becomes a potential crime. So, yes, I think they see all of us as potential criminals.

to increase those profits.......so in reality, we're really all just potential profit making opportunities for that system, rather than law abiding citizens whose taxes pay the police to serve and protect our communities. My dad was a cop....and he wasn't one of those milk delivering ones either....come to think of it......neither were any of his cop buddy's who used to hang around our house during their time off discussing all the crap they did to others and got away with.....all the while laughing their asses off.
Lou

isn't going to be violent or in poor health, so that's who you want in a corporate run prison. Profit, profit, profit!

Lou

It must be a remarkably safe place to live.

There is no area of town that I am afraid to walk in at any time of day.

There are areas of Houston that scare the shit out of me even in daylight.

yelled at, scared to death and arrested because you were out jogging without your ID.

Forgot it at home? Criminal. Crossed the street in the wrong place? Time for your ass to be jailed.

That does afford me some protection. Back when I could jog, I never carried ID either. Too much chance of losing it.

One wonders if the woman dragged also shares your sentiment...