as having any legitimacy in power.

From what I've seen, the opposition just wants the rich running everything again.

The opposition, Lopez, Capriles, Machado, are trying to leverage them. I highly doubt the students would reject dialog, it started BECAUSE the students protested and instead of listening they were arrested en mass.

Same if the students got someone to intervene. Diosdado Cabello is the man in Venezuela with the most power.

He'd be "New Labour" on bath salts(then again, "New Labour" was New Labour on bath salts when it came to dealing with protesters).

Hard to see that that would help anything. Foreign oil corporations have nothing to offer the people.

He helped Chavez during the first coup attempt.

He would be likely to go after the boligarchs.

He would not "sell out" Venezuela.

I'm not a Fidelista, but the Cold War is over. Besides, Cuba provided a lot of doctors for Venezuela, so it's not like their role there has been pure baby-eating evil.

And if Cabello were already the most powerful guy in the Venezuelan government, why would people be protesting in the streets to make him president?

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the "opposition" if they'd at least accept that the current government was legitimate and focus on working to defeat them at the next election.

That's why Chavez didn't pick him as a successor though he has military experience like Chavez did. Chavez had an internationalist view.

They're not protesting to put Cabello in power, mind you, they are protesting out of discontent, from crime, food prices, insecurity. It all started because a student got raped and they protested the lack of security. Those students, rather than being listened to, were arrested en mass. Some of them did commit arson, out of rage, but that was only 4 students, the rest, some half dozen, were arrested without cause (some of them were arrested just for checking in on their fellow students to see what the charges were; because clearly asking what the charges were mean you were present during the arson).

You use "opposition" here again when it's just not true that Lopez, Capriles, or Machado are their representatives. If they keep being pushed aside and ignored, then yes, that might happen. If they keep being repressed they will look for representation. If someone from the opposition comes in and represents them, they will take it. Likewise if Cabello comes in and says Maduro must go, they would accept it.

...but do we know for sure that the government was responsible for that? I find it hard to believe that the PSUV would be THAT insanely reckless.

There needs to be free speech and the right to protest...but there also needs to not be an annulment of the last election results.

That's what caused the rage, Ken.

It'd be like going to the dean at a school and saying "hey, this girl was raped" and then the dean goes "OK so what?" That's basically what happened.

The students so far have not called for annulment of the last election results, that's the bullshit that's being parroted by people who demean the students and act as if they have no reason to protest. San Cristobal is basically under student control, like Oaxaca was in Mexico in 2006. When the Mexican government cracked down there we were rightly repulsed. But as Venezuela cracks down, we turn a blind eye.

It is hypocritical to the core.

How is that a better outcome?

And they expect to be asked for a bribe by crooked politicians, so they pay, right up front.

Are you one of those Monroe Doctrine freaks?

If Venezuela broke with China and Cuba in the name of "purity", they'd have almost no other nations allied with them. What would anyone but Venezuelan millionaires have to gain from those breaks being made? There's no difference between allying with China now and allying with France or Germany. Please stop trying to bring back the Cold War and all that shit.

You know perfectly well that all that would come of Maduro's resignation would be the imposition of massive cuts in social benefits by the IMF and the return of the oil to the outside corporations. And you know that the poor and the workers of Venezuela would get nothing but misery from either of those things happening.

What about the China National Petroleum Corporation? Sinopec is a peculiar name for an indigenous Latin American company, is it not?

Under the current regime the poor and the workers of Venezuela look to be on their way to eating whatever rodent they can hit with a shovel served with a side of grass.

The problem with third-world crackpots like Maduro or Mugabe is that they don't understand that to redistribute wealth, you first have to as a society build wealth. Yet they don't merely fail to build wealth, they destroy it. The social benefits will cease because the government collapses, not because somebody at the American Enterprise Institute decrees it.

The end of Maduro will probably come from a Venezuelan F-16.

DC goes back to the beginning with him.

He was his right hand man throughout his illness.

You're saying Chavez's right hand man is a sellout?

?w=620&h=442

That should be the tipoff right there.

The people opposed to Maduro should just have run against him at the next election. There was no justification for forcing this issue right damn now.

Nothing the U.S. establishment wants for Venezuela can ever be a positive thing for the people there...that's always how it is with our leaders and Latin America, and if you knew anything about the history there you'd realize that. When our folks get involved(like the U.S. embassy flunkies who were deservedly kicked out of the country right before this)that's when you know there's no positive or progressive intent.

The US press doesn't "want" him--they haven't even mentioned him.

Jesus, don't you know a thing about the country you keep hectoring everyone about? Aren't you even watching UNIVISION or reading the papers? You plainly need a scorecard because you don't know who the main players are, here.

I'm getting the sense you don't know who Diosdado Cabello is, or anything about his LONG relationship with Hugo Chavez. Cabello was closer to Chavez than Maduro ever was--that should give you a clue.

As far as I know, there aren't any shows with a left perspective or a pro-worker perspective that ever air on that channel...they do run SABADO GIGANTE, however(a show that's hosted by a Pinochet supporter, for God's sakes).

If Maduro wouldn't shut down tv stations and toss international news agencies out of the country for reporting basic facts, maybe you'd be better informed.

Bottom line--there are people in country trying to get the word out. Look around, do some reading from varied sources, take much with a grain of salt, and stay the hell away from that propaganda rag VZAnalysis. If they say up, the truth is down.

Maduro isn't making it easy for reporters; he shut down public transportation and the damn INTERNET in many localities--not cool. He's already eleminated "oppo" TV. That kind of behavior is not the behavior of a Democratic leader--that is what a despot does.

I think by his engagement in violence and deploying the army against unarmed protestors, Maduro has de-legitimated any claim to power.

He must go.

That means respecting their elections and acknowledging they are a democracy with elected officials.

It's not just a few grumbling oddballs.

And if there's any accuracy to reports, the crowds will be even bigger today.



http://hispanicnewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2014/02/venezuela-national-march-for-solidarity.html

That's how democracy works. You elect officials and then they are the government.

As for all the fake photos from Chile, etc., you sort them out.

But go on ahead and play the "nothing to see here" game.

Demonstrations are ALSO how "democracy works." Unless you live in a repressive regime that ignores the constitutional rights of its citizens.

Demonstrations are one thing, overthrowing a democracy is quite another thing.

Do you believe in overthrowing democracy? Should the Teajadists be able to stage a demonstration to overthrow Obama? Are you buying that?

That the people of VZ should sit down, shut up, not put on their white shirts and march in the streets, because "Nicky Knows Best?"

No dissent permitted!!! That's not democracy in any book I own!

That's not a democracy, as the video I offered up points out.

If Obama is moved by the entreaties of the Teahadist population and the excoriation of the GOP asswipes in Congress then he can resign, too. But seriously--your example--and your attempt to demand some sort of "coup" because it fits your prejudices-- is quite lame. The Teaparty is lucky to get ten indolent jerks sharing thirty portapotties and two dozen lawn chairs at their little shindigs, they certainly don't march in the streets, and they certainly don't turn out in numbers like THIS:
Posted 19 Feb:

Posted 19 Feb:


Posted 20 Feb:


Posted 21 Feb:


Posted 21 Feb:


Posted 21 Feb:


Posted 22 Feb:


Posted 22 Feb:



It doesn't take a genius to see that the crowds are getting bigger, not smaller, and the people are pissed off. This "nothing to see here"...."No, no, WAIT! It's OBAMA's fault!!!" .... "No, no--I mean it's forces on the 'right' inciting violence" bullshit just isn't cutting it.

What is causing these protests is right in front of anyone with two eyes and half a brain. Inflation is pushing sixty percent. There are no basic goods on the shelves because no one will give Maduro credit because he does not pay his bills--he allows his crony pals to STEAL the remittances from the oil he sells, and too much of the oil he pumps has to go to China in payment for loans he took that have already been spent/stolen. He manipulates the currency absurdly, so that the people might as well wipe their asses on it, since there's no toilet paper to be had. THAT's what the problem is--not some "Big Bad Wolf." It's called pisspoor management, and when a manager sucks, he needs to be fired, or exit gracefully to "spend more time with his family"--that's what the people in the streets are trying to do. And, even though you don't like it, that's their RIGHT in a democracy.

All that can come of Maduro being forced out is austerity budgets and the return of subservience to foreign finance.

How can you think any good can come of that?

The people of Venezuela don't WANT the old days back...why do you? no government before the PSUV ever did anything good for the workers and the poor.

"All that can come" of Maduro resigning is that his cronies, who are robbing the country blind, can be taken off the job of stealing from the treasury, perhaps prosecuted and some of the ill-gotten gains returned; oversight as to where the money is bleeding out can begin, perhaps less of the nation's treasure can be spent on Cubans and more on Venezuelans, the nation can--for a change--start paying their bills so that people will be willing to extend them credit again...and that is just for starters.

I can't believe how you infantalize the people of Venezuela.

The bottom line is that Maduro is INCOMPETENT. That is why the nation is in an 'in extremis' position. It was a bad situation with the Boligarchs robbing the country's coffers quite boldly under Chavez, and that only worsened under Maduro. Add to that no one seems to give a shit about the infrastructure, and the oil fields haven't been maintained--equipment is left to rot and rust. It's disgraceful, much of the problems of Venezuela are the result of shitty management and no goddamned oversight, not nefarious actors from outside the country. They can't keep fucking up and expect to make a buck--ya gotta work for your pay.

As for foreign finance, the horse has already left the barn on that score. While you were sleeping your good buddy Maduro took a shitload of money off the Chinese in a "robbing Peter to pay Paul" exercise. Now a goodly percentage of what the Venezuelans are getting out of their underproducing oil fields has to go straight to China to service that debt. And if they ever think of stiffing China, there will be consequences.



The man you are trying to prop up is an IDIOT, a fiscal MORON. That's why VZ is in the shitter.

The people of Venezuela want TOILET PAPER. They want lights that stay on. They want jobs. They don't want "murder by the dozen" and to have one of the worst crime rates in the entire world. They want flour to make arepas on the store shelf. They'd like to be able to afford to buy a little chicken or beef--and for it to be available for sale. They don't want runaway inflation. They don't want to not be able to buy a plane ticket because no airlines will do business with VZ anymore because they DON'T PAY THEIR BILLS.

Good grief--I can't believe how obtuse some people are about what is going on in that country. It's frankly pathetic.

People aren't in the streets over ideology. Disabuse yourself of that stupid notion. They're in the streets over bread-and-butter issues. The fact that you don't "get" that tells me that you are blinded by ideology and false loyalty to a frigging LOSER.

But, the right-wing forces of the coup attempt know that they need anarchy in the streets to pull off the overthrow of the elections and democracy.

No one who lives in a slum will celebrate a right-wing takeover, or the end of the community councils(the only democracy poor Venezuelans, since poor people are always unrepresented in parliamentary democracy, have ever had).

Why the hell do you want a massive swing to the right? Austerity budgets? The return of control of the oil to the foreign rich? Why do you want Venezuela to lose its dignity?

It was enough that there was going to be another election in three years. Maduro has done nothing to deserve to be forced out, and it can't be a positive thing to undo the election results. There can be no life-loving, liberating result of putting the capitalists back in power.

And there's no difference between Venezuela being allied with China and being allied with the U.S. Both of those are just large countries.

Why would you think there would be a right wing "takeover" if Maduro resigns?

Answer this question, it requires a small amount of history knowledge--did the Democrats "take over" when Nixon resigned?


Why do you think that the Venezuelans can't handle a transfer of power upon the resignation of the nation's leader in an orderly fashion? Do you reallly think so little of them that you "assume" that the only way power can be transferred is at the point of a gun?

If anyone doesn't have faith in the Venezuelan people and their Bolivarian revolution, it surely isn't ME in this conversation.

As I've said more than once on this board, and you can look it up, I think that Cabello will be sitting in the Presidential palace before Capriles. You remember Diosdado Cabello, don't you? Army lieutenant when Chavez was El Coronel? Sat at the right hand of Hugo?

You've just -- I hope -- learned a little lesson about "assuming." And if anyone here is casting aspersions on Venezuelan "dignity" it's you. Your attitude is terribly condescending towards them--you think they're too stupid to want to protest on their own, you subscribe to childish conspiracy theories about foreign actors that plainly aren't operative, you deny that the situation in the country in terms of inflation, crime and scarcity of goods is dire, and you infantalize the people with your scolding about the right wing and how Venezuelans don't know their own minds and can't act to secure their own destiny.

Tsk, tsk.

And, since you've always opposed Chavez from the right, why should I trust your intents here?

You aren't concerned about making life better for workers and the poor...you just want Venezuela to break with China and Cuba

The problem is, doing that would leave them at the mercy of El Norte and the U.S. oil companies.

Do your google--he's been with Chavez since the BEGINNING. Do you even know anything about that country? I'm starting to think you don't. Cabello and Chavez differed on one issue--Diosdado isn't as in love with Cuba as Hugo was. Of course, Cuba spent a year lying to Chavez about how serious his cancer was, and another year torturing the man with cruel and unusual treatments, and who knows how many weeks abusing his dead corpse with "life support," so I can understand Cabello's reasoning.

This isn't a case of what I'd "like"--if it were up to me, I'd throw them all out and start fresh, to include all the fucking corrupt generals. But realistically, that's not going to happen, so one has to dance with the ones what brung 'em.

If VZ wants to continue down the "Bolivarian" path, the best way to make that happen is for Maduro to resign and hand the reins over to Rangel, and let Diosdado run for office. If Diosdado can get endorsed by Lopez, maybe by promising him a role in economic affairs or something of that nature, he can probably keep the country on a modified Chavista path, without the stupid-ass rhetoric and without the gross corruption. The FIRST thing that needs to happen is to get a handle on the horrific shortages of basic consumer goods--if that can happen, there's a hope in hell of hanging on to the "Chavez way." If not, the people will welcome ANY change, even if it involves crackdowns and austerities, so long as they believe there will truly be a light at the end of the tunnel.

The place could be a bit more democratic(although our country is becoming less democratic, so who are we to judge?) but this isn't just about switching from one member of the PSUV to another.

The North American financial sector won't allow Cabello to keep bolivarismo in place(and if that falls, there can't be another left that could emerge to take its place, because permanent American control will be restored and resistance will be impossible)

I wish it were possible that the Venezuelan people would be allowed to have any power after bolivarismo is removed, but there's no reason at all to think that will happen.

And if the Yanqui get their way, there might be more toilet paper in the stores...but only the rich will be able to afford it. That's what "free market" economics means, buddy. That's what "pro-business" governance means.

The U.S. would never allow Cabello to preserve any of the social gains.

Stop crying about the "Yanqui." No one wants VZ's shitty, sour oil. It goes for bargain basement prices because it's hard to refine. Haven't you noticed that oil exports in VZ have declined to their LOWEST rate in almost thirty years?

Prices aren't going up here, no one is freezing to death, no long lines/shortages at the pump....get it through your head, we don't NEED VZ's oil anymore.

Your head is stuck in old paradigms and "revolutionary" talking points. They simply are not operative anymore.

Change in government - yes.

It is the government's responsibility to deal with the violent faction in the protest - a small part of that or any protest. It also has the responsibility to protect the rights of peaceful protesters - the large majority.

Deriding this protest as "spontaneous" is the same thing the governments did in Kiev and in Bangkok, in Damascus and Cairo, in Seattle and Wall Street. Governments work hard to discredit protesters. Why? If successful, it frees them up to use more violence against the crowds. Protests are made up mostly of people really, really unhappy with their government. It takes a lot of unhappiness to get most folks to take to the streets. There will always be a small number of hardcore protesters (from the right or left, government agents or anarchists, etc.) who are there following orders and committed to violence.

My impression is that the Venezuelan government has been far from perfect but, on balance, good for Venezuelans. That said, I certainly recognize the right of Venezuelans - who undoubtedly know a whole lot more than I do about the good and bad of the government - to protest against it.

Let them work it out. There are so many other things in the world that deserve more attention.

You can be against a dictator masquerading as a left-wing populist without being right wing, you realize this, right?

Most of those who are fighting for their lives against the army and the Chavistas are just ordinary people, some poor, some middle class, who want real change. They want less inflation, less murder, more products on shelves. It's a true people's revolution. The Venezuelan government is realizing that when it runs out of money to spend on well meaning social programs, it's in trouble.

If you ask me Maduro needs to go back to bus driving and leave government to people with educational political backgrounds.

There's no voluntary resignation option--it's focused on violent "overthrow." It's like asking a person if they would like cake, and if they say "No, I don't like cake," being told it's "Cake...or death."

No one likes "violent" overthrows. Not even people who want an incompetent buffoon out.

I would not be surprised if Diosdado Cabello, who is quite obviously a high ranking member of the left as the President of the National Assembly, and who was closer to Chavez than Maduro ever was, is ready to toss the guy out on his ass.

Here's the bottom line--if Maduro leaves, it won't be a bunch of students and poor folks and disaffected middle class types dressed in white who throw him out on their own. The ARMY is gonna have to involved, too. And who is still has close associations with the Army? Who served with Chavez in the Army and was involved in helping Hugo return to power in 2002? Hint--Not Maduro...he never served.


http://countrylicious.com/venezuela/famous-people#p56

Even Chavez said he saw Maduro as a governor, which makes his selection as heir to the throne and elevation to the Presidency (by an infinitesimal margin, with electoral corruption suspected) rather odd.

Not even 10% of the forum.

But I'm not surprised. Why would anyone but an unthinking ideologue be enthused about responding to a poll that doesn't give a genuine choice?

And only an uninformed ideologue would think that internet polls are somehow controlling. They don't mean diddly.

When it comes to conversing with you I will simply have to consider the source, I suppose.

What OTHER "choices" do think could possibly exist?

"overthrow." Further, the government would remain in the same political party's hands, Rangel would govern until elections could be held.

Your agenda was made obvious through the use of the scary quotation marks around the word "spontaneous." As I have said elsewhere, you do yourself a real disservice by making your contempt for the intelligence of the average Venezuelan so unintentionally obvious.

When there is no food in the stores, no toilet paper or dishwashing liquid to buy, no electricity because of infrastructure failures, public transportation becomes unreliable (or now, not working), and there are dozens of murders in that country EACH day, there's a problem. When the rate of inflation is fifty or sixty percent, that cuts into what little earnings one has--saving becomes impossible and just surviving becomes problematic. It's not the rich who feel the pain and fear that results from that kind of hyperinflationary economy--it's the poor. And this, my friend, is why the POOR are in the STREETS, protesting.

This is not rocket science--I'm astounded that you think it is. And your insinuations that there's something nefarious about people griping because, oh heavens, there's no food in the stores and we can't afford to buy any, anyway is indicative of your poor grasp of the situation.

Only an IDIOT would be complacent in that sort of environment, and you apparently want the Venezuelans to be complacent. What does that say about your actual "devotion" to the Venezuelans? Not much, in my estimation--you're more married to a perceived ideology, and you could give a shit about the day to day lives of the people living in that country, so long as the "narrative" you have in your head isn't challenged.

The people in the streets are challenging that narrative--the place is fucked up, and Maduro is incompetent.

More accurately they are corporatists. Because that's all this is in Venezuela. A lot of oil dollars goes a long way to sow the seeds of "dissent" and propaganda. The corps have been doing it for decades all over South America.

It is VERY nice to see (by the numbers) that there are some real progressives on DU and that they are not a minority!!

Thanks to the OP for the poll.

I do agree with your larger point. Maduro seems utterly incapable at this point and it's not like the people have no reason to be protesting...and I simply roll my eyes at those who blame the US for this.

Catastrophic as he is, Maduro is a democratically elected president.

I think the scare quotes around "spontaneous" are unwarranted, but that an elected president should only be overthrown by protesters in the most extreme circumstances imaginable, and I don't think Venezuela qualifies.

Let's even say "democratically," for argument's sake. But like Nixon, who won a decisive re-election in 1972, when he crosses the line and the people say "no more," then the answer has to be "no more."

There's no guarantee what comes next would be better, but it's doubtful it would be much worse. Maduro should recognize this and step down before he gets stepped on.

Yes, in an ideal world, Maduro would resign, just like Harper, Merkel, Howard, Cameron etc, not to mention the rulers of just about every country North and East of the Med, and much of Africa.

But having won an election makes it legitimate for him not to, in general.

And like Robert Mugabe, DU was home to his last remaining outspoken supporters.

Too many reflexively support anyone calling themselves a 'populist' or 'anti-capital leftist' even after sending out the troops to murder the very citizens they lied about representing.

Anyway, not even close to the same thing.

Other than the fact that Mugabe is rather well educated while Maduro has little formal education, what differences do you find in their philosophy or outcomes?

And I have many ties to Zimbabwe, thanks for asking.

Or having the leader of the opposition severely beaten?

Or, really, much of anything?

Like in the Ukraine, too many people have been abused, and now thirst for revenge. I doubt this will end well.

What a shame--such a beautiful country, endowed with so many natural riches. This didn't have to happen.

I have not read the first paragraph on the story.

I'm sure more info will come about the spontaneous protests — if they are "spontaneous". I mean we've watched these kind of situations unfold countless times in third world countries and many times it comes out later that leaders of so-called spontaneous protests were backed with funds from anit-leftist, American sources.

Maduro, barely in office for less than a year and Chavez' successor, is a leftist. And we also know that right wingers here have long had a desire to turn back the leftist leaning governments that are getting elected in South America.

Let's follow the money.

Before Hugo Chevas. Fuck that shit.
I'm surprised you would even ask such an asinine question

The problems in Venezuela are directly due to our meddling in their affairs.

I say we get the fuck out and leave them alone.

You do know that Venezuela's oil has been nationalized for years, long before Chavez?

It's heavy and it is sour and their fields are in such shitty shape they aren't pumping at anywhere near capacity because of poor maintenance. They are pumping less now than they were in the eighties.

They aren't RELIABLE suppliers, you see.

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Bitter-Irony-in-Venezuelas-Oil-Sector.html

Venezuelan oil production is declining, and a lot of what they are pumping goes to pay back China for those loans the Chinese made to Maduro:



And we aren't "in." VZ runs their own show--and they run it badly. THAT is why they are having problems.

http://www.eia.gov/countries/cab.cfm?fips=ve

Countries with right-of-center government generally aren't green.

They are sitting on the largest oil deposits in the world. That's about the only thing they DON'T have to pay out the wazoo for, is gas/oil.

and control all of the people, governments, and resources of the world, for they possess much material wealth, which proves that they are holy and superior, and we ignorant, unworthy ones live only to serve their needs.

Or not.

¡Hasta la Victoria Siempre!

Do you support the overthrow of Obama in the USA?
Do you support the overthrow of Maduro in Venezuela?

If you answer these two questions differently, why? Probably because you are influenced by propaganda moreso than by reason.

Two democracies with two recently elected presidents. If you think a "Ted Nugent" type idea like overthrowing Obama is just beyond the pall, unthinkably traitorous anti-democratic babble, but you entertain the thought that Maduro needs to be removed, why? Are there two kinds of democracy, ours and theirs, wherein we get to overrule their voters?

Don't be fooled by the media in Venezuela, they once staged a coup using the private television stations while taking down the one public channel. The television stations were part of the conspiracy, and the staged demonstrations were integral to the plot which included murdering your own demonstrators and blaming the people who support democracy.

.

Just trying to see how deep that sentiment is here.

Lopez and his right-wing cohorts are no better than the tea party idiots here in the US who call for Obama's impeachment.

against the grain here.

I mean I feel bad for the violence, but it's not my fight.

major reforms. They have shortages of staple goods, skyrocketing inflation, very high murder and crime rates (some of which is being done by the government forces or government backed paramilitary forces).

I do not know if Maduro is capable of carrying out those needed reforms.

Venezuela should be a rich country considering its oil wealth, but it is squandering it with major inefficiencies, trying to use boogiemen to distract the populace.

Instead Maduro should be ending the needless rhetoric, look for what he can do to best help all Venezuelans


I do not think that he should be brought down by the protests. Unless the elected congress finds that he has committed crimes that require him being removed from office or he decides that he should resign on his own.

He was elected to replace Chavez. Chavez did a lot to repress opposition to himself, which Maduro is trying to do as well.


My bigger concern is that the army will step in and overthrow Maduro via a coup. What happens after that is unknown. Chavez put a lot of his supporters in key positions in the army, so they may decide to rule via a dictatorship. Or they may write a new constitution, call for new elections. But who knows if those elections will be free and fair.

because I think what they'd get would be far worse.

I'd rather have him frightened and chastened a bit so he stops acting like a dictator.