They seem to be reserving the tasers for kids and elderly though.

tried to steal the police vehicle or weapon inside it. I agree on the taser but then some would still be upset.

a patrol car unless you have the right keys and access tool.

But with your apparent mindset, why are you on a progressive site? If you watched the tape you would know that the officers had many opportunities to take him down way before it got to the point of him trying to escape by getting in the police car. And we have no way of knowing he actually tried to get the gun except for the word of cops who just pumped nine rounds into the unarmed man.

It never would have gotten to that point if the cops had just used their NON-LETHAL training. It doesn't always have to come down to "shooting the black guy."

We both know that a disoriented white guy would not have been gunned down by a group of white cops when all they had to do was physically overpowered him.

The incident was handled extremely ineptly by the cops. A minor traffic incident should no have ended up with a dead body.

But yeah, I guess 9 bullets in the back are equally as good.

And only resorted to deadly force after patiently talking to the guy for several minutes and afterwards, wrestling with him. The decedent escalated the situation by breaking into the police car where he would have access to weapons? Of all the bad police videos we have seen, this doesn't appear to be one.

Why does no one ever blame the person shot by police for their actions which directly led to and caused the shooting in the first place?!

A minor traffic incident should not have resulted in a dead body.

3 cops outnumbered one guy. What the hell were they afraid of? Act like cops, take command of the situation and physically overpower the one guy with the weight of 3 bodies to take him down and cuff him.

There were horrible non-decisions made in allowing the situation to escalate and an even worse one to pump 9 rounds into the guy.

Cops should know how to handle a situation when they have such a huge physical advantage without having to kill.

Guess it didn't matter though — just a black guy.

The cops should be quicker to resort to electrocutions with tazers, beatings with batons, and should not attempt to de-escalate a situation verbally and with patience. Gotcha.

I'm saying take the guy down with physical force. What are three huge cops doing pussy footing around.

It was ONE GUY.

Take command, overpower him physically, cuff him and put him in the patrol car.

ALIVE.

Where the hell was their non-lethal training?

This should not even be a point of argument — especially on a progressive site.

There was no need for that guy to die.'

Got it?

I watched the video - I am not sure what exactly transpired myself . . . (I guess I am not as omniscient as you). Not sure what was said. Not sure what they asked/told him to do or not to do. Not sure how uncooperative he might have been. Not sure what else might have been in that cop-car that could have put others in danger. How are you so sure you know exactly what happened?

I guess if I were a true "progressive", I should automatically assign blame to the authorities? Is that it? If so, I guess I am not that progressive.

. . . and no one, including the dead 20-yr-old's family can get a statement out of the cops. They're being very close-mouthed because they know this is a colossal screw up.

The fact of the matter is, and if you read my posts you wouldn't have asked what might have been in the cop car, there was a failure by the officers on the scene that allowed a minor traffic incident to escalate to the point that the man was in the car and was killed.

It never should have gotten to him getting in the cop car. They had numerous opportunities to end the situation.

But the inept threesome failed to take charge and ACT LIKE COPS. They should have put bodies on him, taken him down, cuffed him and put him in the car alive instead of resorting to pumping nine rounds into him because they didn't control the scene.

You said you watched the video, well you saw as I did that the man was almost prancing around like it was a cat and mouse game — back and forth. That never should have been allowed to happen.

I say again, the cops should have taken charge of the situation by putting their expensive academy physicality training to use. Instead they killed him.

A huge FAIL. No one should die over a minor traffic incident.

Nice strawman. He wasn't killed because of a "minor traffic incident." He was killed because he fought with the police, got into a police car with immediate access to a weapon.

If a cop stops someone for a tail light out, by all accounts a "minor traffic incident," and that person pulls a gun and is then subsequently shot by police, it is a non sequitur to say that the person was killed over a minor traffic incident.

Sure you belong on a progressive site?

I think logic and reason are both quite progressive.

But your logic is faulty since you don't seem to see that the incident should never have reach the point where the man got in the patrol car.

The cops bungled a minor traffic incident by not taking charge and taking the guy down by physically out numbering him early on in the confrontation.

If they had acted like competence officers and controlled the situation the man would not be dead.

It's not rocket science — not that hard to understand that the cops screwed up.

I'm glad the cops didn't "take him down" sooner. It's refreshing to see police attempt to resolve the conflict using verbal mediation and NOT jumping into an immediate physical confrontation. It appears from what I've read that when their attempts to talk him down failed, that they did attempt less lethal (pepper spray) which was ineffective. After that failed, the confrontation became physical and according to at least one eyewitness, the man was "throwing" the cops around. The same witness says they tried to stun (tase?) the decedent.

"One driver says Berghardt did not listen to the officers, who ordered him to put up his hands and stop moving. The officers tried to stun Berghardt, David Reed told the Review-Journal, with no effect.

“They tried and tried,” Reed, 61, said. “I thought he was on drugs or something. He was that strong; he was throwing them around.”

Having personally been in a situation in which I have had to physically restrain someone who doesn't want to be restrained, I can assure you that even with three against one, it's still no cakewalk.

This is a tragic situation that indicates several failures of our society. I suspect that the decedent was either suffering from mental illness or drug / alcohol abuse -- both major problems that our country fails to adequately treat. Further, it appears that there were numerous bystanders who could have assisted with corralling the man, but instead chose to sit in their vehicles and watch. Perhaps the police would have turned them away, but we will never know. And of course they're not obligated to assist, but watching the video I was stuck by the callous nature of their commenting and filming from a safe distance. Maybe knowing what was coming influenced my thought process, but I wanted to yell at the camera man to go help!

Perhaps there were things that the officers could have done differently and the outcome change. But that's impossible to know for sure. What we do know is that they appeared to be reasonable, attempt communicate and slow to use force until absolutely necessary. I don't want to Monday-morning quarterback them without some indication of a notable error.

Once he jumped into the driver's seat whether he was reaching for a weapon or not all bets are off - the vehicle itself is a weapon. This isn't the fault of police as far as I can tell, and looking at that video bopping around all over the place and taken from so far away nobody can tell what the hell happened. Seeing as they were so reluctant to approach him too closely he may have had some kind of weapon. How many times have the cop haters here blown a gasket because the cops DID jump on someone to arrest them and cry the blues that they didn't try talking the person down first or handled them gently, and I distinctly recall in one shit on the police threads where people were saying they should have HUGGED the crazy nut running screaming through an airport. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Here's an idea, want to complain that cops aren't doing their job correctly no matter what they do or don't do? Sign your own ass up. Go through the training, and if you can even cut the mustard, work as a cop for a few years dealing with the kind of dangerous shit they have to do every day and then come back and tell everyone what you think about it. Until then your opinions about what they should or shouldn't have done and what their training is or is not isn't worth spit. Hell, you don't even know what the hell even HAPPENED in this case since the video is so crap and taken from so far way and you can't tell, and all that can be heard is the bozos taking the video at a safe distance in the safety of their car trying to guess and complaining all the while themselves.

As for the police not saying anything about the incident. Well, DUH. They aren't allowed to until after an investigation is completed. Surely one as you that believes they know everything about what the police are or aren't supposed to do and how they are or aren't supposed to do it in every situation (and even those situations where you can't see shit about what the hell is happening in the first place) would at least know THAT much.

The only failure I'm seeing here is your OP. Just another in an enormously long line of cop hating BS by cop haters who think they know everything and are even omniscient about every single case while too chicken shit to sign their own ass up.

The cops didn't take charge of the situation by taking the guy down. They had a huge physical and numerical advantage and didn't use it.

It's not that hard to understand.

You did notice how reluctant they were to get very close to him, right? Could it be there was a reason for that like he had a weapon of some kind?

This is just cop hate bullshit that's been rampant on DU at least since I came here over a decade ago. If they did take him down you and others would be on here screaming that they were too rough or why couldn't they try talking him down, blah, blah, blah. On DU every cop is a crazy gun nut or too lazy, and the people like you that think they know everything concerning what they trained to do and why when they don't know spit about it and when there is NO WAY TO TELL what the hell happened or why.

Enough of this shit already. Nobody but the people involved in this situation know what the hell happened or why. That video is a ridiculous piece of crap taken from so far away you have to watch it several times to even figure out which are the police and which is the loony resisting arrest aside from the fact that the git that was taking it couldn't be bothered to even try to keep their hand still or even AIM the camera properly so through the entire thing the frame is bouncing around so much it's like being on a tilt-a-whirl.

Have you signed your own ass up to be a police officer yet so you have a leg to stand on giving your "expert" opinion on everything they do or don't do in every situation including those like this one that you can't even SEE what the fuck happened? I thought not. Armchair general that never even bothered to spend even five minutes learning anything about officer training yet wants to pretend they're some kind of expert and their hate fest opinions actually mean anything other than the blatantly obvious.

Last edited Sun Feb 23, 2014, 11:24 PM - Edit history (1)

It's pretty simple. They didn't take charge. It's plain to see they bungled what should have been a simple take down. Were they afraid to get down and dirty? I want to see cops act like cops and use their physicality to take this guy down. 3-on-one and they end up shooting the one guy.

Not good. Why do you think they're investigating, and being so close-mouthed about it?

And let's get real here. If that was 20-year-old white guy we both know there would not have been any shooting.

Oh right, you don't care.

De-escalating was the cops trying to verbally direct him to a peaceful ending for minutes prior to the use of force. It seems like the cops are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they had jumped in with physical restraint, baton strikes, and tazers, this thread would have been about excessive force. The same anti-police posters would be condemning the cops for using physical force too quickly, or using too much force.

I suppose in future police related threads in which police officers use considerable force to subdue and arrest a non-compliant person, you will loudly announce your support for them, because decisive and swift use of force has the potential to end the situation before the non-compliant person does something that warrants the police using deadly force, right?

I'll hold my breath.

Your excuses are total failsauce. They could have tasered the guy and ended it right there...but that probably would not have been enough for you.

Did the officers have them at their disposal? Clearly they tried the pepper spray and it wasn't effective.

Here is a quote from an eyewitness:


David Reed, 61, said he was in a truck close to the action and spoke to the Las Vegas Review Journal.

'They tried and tried,' he said. 'I thought he was on drugs or something. He was that strong; he was throwing them around.'



So they tried negotiating. Tried pepper spray. Tried physical restraint. And all of that failed. And this guy breaks into the cop car and is trying to get a gun from within.

Again, of all the questionable police shootings we have seen, THIS ain't in the same league. Your standard for police to use force is unrealistic and will never, ever be the standard they're held to --
Nor should it be.

It's disheartening that posters here don't praise these police officers for doing things right. They tried to talk him into handcuffs.
Tried to use less lethal. Tried to wrestle with him. None of it worked and he escalated it to the point of deadly force.

3 huge cops should have overpowered him.

If they had done that the situation would have quickly been over and the kid would not be dead.

And if the officers couldn't take the heat of someone complaining about excessive force they need to get a new line of work because that goes with the territory.

And a guy would still be alive.

Huge FAIL.

They acted as if they were afraid. They should have taken charge, dammit. They are the cops. Act like it.

When in doubt, pull the trigger.

But, but, but...you are!

Their job is to take down the suspect (which was unarmed) and restrain him. They failed to do their job, the situation got out of hand and they killed their suspect.

But don't let any of those facts get in the way nor the video.

Cops are here to protect and serve.............................other cops.

group are the first to reply with their weak arguments in favor officially sanctioned slaughter.
& R

Thanks for the heads-up on the officially-sanctioned-slaughter fans.

the cops felt threatened and were standing their ground when they used their personal safety devices to eliminate the source of their fear (a thug). Nothing to see here -- just another day in the most armed and dangerous country in the "civilized" world.

No wonder cops get away with so much shit...there are far too many that will let them have a free pass on murder. Makes ya wonder sometimes.

They give all good cops a bad name.

by not working to get rid of the ones that are corrupt. It takes just a little bit of corruption and a whole lot of turning blind eyes to arrive at where we are now.

and it is TOTALLY their responsibility to self-police...which we can see is a failure nationwide.

And breaking into a police car with weapons inside, during the fight, can also be fatal.

Wonder over from Freeper?

Is there any special reason why you seem to enjoy questioning peoples progressiveness/party affiliation?(in this thread atleast)

it doesn't seem like a very effective debating technique to me, seems more like a tactic to quell/sidetrack a conversation/subthread.

addendum: kinda new yerself aren't ya to start questioning other posters newness?

Their "odd" (and I'm going with a euphemism here) positions on an obviously bungled job by the officers in this

situation — definitely not the norm around here.

Cops must kill 20 or 30 people a year there.

but I read that the cops used a taser and pepper spray. We don't know if he claimed to have a weapon or not. It seems to me the cops should have been able to take the guy down, but then they would have been criticized for using batons on the guy. At the point that he was attempting to steal the squad, they had no choice but to shoot, but it should not have gotten that far.