Just kidding.

the special '4 boxes for $20' discount deal...

I won't buy the cookies because they have palm oil. I give a donation and talk about the evils of palm oil.

And still be delicious.

have gotten the mints, always great! I decided to try a new one they have this year, no where as good as the mints.

Wondering.

destroying forests.

but skip the lecture.

palm oil is.

of the sidewalk and climb on your soapbox. Leave little girls raising money for their troop alone.

People really do not like evangelists, no matter what the topic of their evangelizing happens to be.

my donation and my interest in saving the planet.

made them feign interest in your diatribe - that is what polite people do.

Have a lovely day.

there is no excuse for a fifth grader not knowing this. NONE.

sP

"seems a bit advanced for even high schoolers"

there is an excuse.

Way to let the point go right fucking past your mind...

you are being purposely obtuse or just stirring shit...

sP

but whatever.

haven't received an answer. I saw nothing wrong with your question. A certain percentage of all students have learning disabilities and it's possible this student was one of them. Of course it's also possible she had a "brain freeze' as suggested downthread. That's the problem with making sweeping statements based on one isolated experience. The rudeness? I don't have a clue.

Still in the dark here. Maybe someone can enlighten me because I was not being "purposely obtuse or a s*** stirrer".

Not very enlightening, though. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I admire your self control.

would have probably been able to detect a special ed student counting change... and that special ed student would have someone watching OVER THEM making change...

no you're being obtuse as well...

i will explain it... a fifth grader that cannot make change should be an EMBARRASSMENT!

sP

in this field. Special Education students are not always apparent as such. Many times, especially in social situations, they are indistinguishable from other students. I have worked with many of these students, so I am not being obtuse or just spouting off. In fact, it is fairly common for some Special Education students to be far below grade level in academics but better than average at social skills, working with their hands, dealing with adults or their peers, and even public speaking.

Sheesh. Now I know why I don't reply very often.

no, you obviously didn't.

get this: if the child was a special needs child, someone would have been supervising and helping. and had that been the case, i would wager the OP would not have been made. so, the child was NOT special needs. the child was woefully behind in even the MOST BASIC MATH and THAT is an embarrassment.

but you go ahead and try to make excuses for how this kid MIGHT have been special needs... when obviously they were not.

sP

You don't really know what special ed means. These students can look and act like the general population. Maybe learning disabled would have made more sense to you. Regardless, I still don't understand your rudeness.

and you now sure as fuck didn't read the message above...

get this: if the child was a special needs child, someone would have been supervising and helping. and had that been the case, i would wager the OP would not have been made. so, the child was NOT special needs. the child was woefully behind in even the MOST BASIC MATH and THAT is an embarrassment.

you have totally missed the point for quite a long time now...

sP

as well as the growing number of people who seemingly can't express themselves without using "fucking" as a meaningless adjective. In my view, it adds no force to the writing, and instead detracts from it.

I know I could have helped her, without embarrassing her one bit, showing her how easy it can be figuring change. And shame on Grandpa for not spending a little time to explaining to his granddaughter how to do it.

Or at least I hope he did.

I would have taken your approach as well. Help her figure it out, without causing her any embarrassment.

"Hey, kid - are you stupid or something? give me my 9 dollars already!"

because of abortion. Or gays. Or something. I can't keep track of their long list of grievances...

do-it-yourself abortions, and proficiency in homosexuality that have them riled!

for the profoundly irony impaired....!

than the duds I hung out with in the '70s!

I, too, would have taken your approach. We are talking about a 10-year-old in a public situation. Many adults, let alone children, become nervous in this type of situation and perhaps that was part of the problem.

My son thrived, totally thrived despite the teachers and the schools having to do more with less. It also helps if parents are involved; we were very involved. Where were Grandpa's children, the girl's parents today?

difference since first grade. She probably was not listening.

in most cases.

She might have learned something when she was short.

A couple years ago I asked a high schooler working behind the bakery counter for 5 cookies that were priced at four for a dollar and he could not figure out how much to charge me.

ask us what the answer was to a simple addition question. Sometimes they just forget what we consider common knowledge. It didn't help that the teacher was using the "new math" process which even confused me (I had taken two years of upper level calculus in college!!).

We had to learn multiplication tables and other such things. I've watched kids doing their homework and blindly put down whatever the display shows after hitting =. Even if the answer is orders of magnitude off from where it should be. I saw someone put down as the answer a 4 digit total after adding up six 2 digit numbers. He didn't have a clue when I told him that was wrong. He insisted that since that was the answer on the display it was correct.
I like to use a calculator too but I have a rough idea of what order of magnitude the answer should be in.

And only then it was only for graphing.

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I always found this particularly funny because my mom carried around a calculator in her wallet even back then and I always told my teachers so when they said the "you won't be carrying around a calculator" statement. They always rolled their eyes (don't worry, I always got A+ in math until high school. Then it was just A).

Currently, I have a prof who said he's not going to test us on memorizing theories. He said that when he was going through school, memory and recall was extremely important and valued. He said in this day and age, where everything is on google and you can find it in 5 seconds, there is no future value for your workplace in memorizing dozens of theories. He'd prefer we knew how to apply our knowledge instead. All of our tests will be about application of the theories - not about naming them. I thought that was interesting. He's the first prof I've had that's done that (I'm a 4th year Bcom student)

What's 4 x 9?

What's 6 x 7?

What's 9 x 8?

When hardly any of us could answer he said that we would learn our multiplication tables & there would be an extensive test two weeks from that day & he would be back to see how we did. We all passed. His son was in our class & I always thought that was how he discovered that we didn't know our multiplication tables.

I had a total of $4.76 at the grocery store one day & gave the young clerk a $20. After he keyed in $20.00 I handed him a penny. He didn't have a clue what to do. I said, "Just give me a quarter back instead of 24 cents." He still didn't get it & handed the penny back to me & then gave me 24 cents.

It ain't getting any smarter out there, people.

- Frank Zappa

Standing in a public street trying to sell things might be stressful for a lot of 10 year olds. Might impair her otherwise fine cognitive abilities.

Her immediate response was to start counting on her fingers. When that didn't work grandpa came riding to the rescue. Just unable to figure out that 20-8=12 without a calculator.

but won't stop with the "counting-on-your-fingers" crap. Schools spent so much time making numbers into "things" (blocks, stars, circles, whatever) that these kids never learn to view numbers as an abstract.

Drives me bananas.

asked a question related to a due date, out came several sets of fingers.

Some people, especially future engineers, always prefer "hands on" activities. It doesn't have to mean they don't grasp abstract math.

Last edited Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:11 AM - Edit history (1)

professor of electrical engineering at MIT always says that as you become more experienced and move higher up in mathematical work, you become more careful and go through your calculations in tiny steps. This is in contrast to graduate students who want to skip steps and do stuff in their head. Experienced scientists and engineers have learned the hard way how much lost time and frustration is caused by carelessness.

ways of counting on their fingers. And about how children with a better finger counting sense are better at quantitative tasks.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

but that was strictly forbidden even in first grade when I was in school (a long, long time ago).

But I never held my daughter back from doing it when she wanted to, and she's a PhD engineer today. She never stopped enjoying math, with fingers or without.



And there's this:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

MRI scans show that brain regions associated with finger sense are activated when we perform numerical tasks, even if we don't use our fingers to help us complete those tasks. And studies show that young children with good finger awareness are better at performing quantitative tasks than those with less finger sense.

I wouldn't take a single instance to be a sign that most 10 year old children can't perform basic math.

One swallow does not a summer make.

My son gets funny looks from people all the time because he can't comprehend basic things or solve some basic problems. I can see something like this easily happening to him, and someone who didn't know him mistaking it for lack of education/etc..

Just saying, it might not always be what you think.

The leader/mom in charge talked the girl thru the sale (the girl had the "two boxes +$8&quot ad then said ""Two dollars makes 10 and another 10 is 20, so she needs a ten and two ones--you'll have your math down so well after this weekend!" The girl beamed at me as she gave me my change.
Kids don't see or do cash transactions now as much as I did as a kid--it takes practice to hone the skills.

So marijuana IS a gateway drug.

Just be careful with those munchies.

The girls struggled more with my question of which cookies were they favorites.

Either way, this OP is pointless.

and you never do it wrong if you do it like this.

Count up from the price of the item to the amount that the customer gives you. Out loud. Work from smallest to largest numbers.

The cookies cost $8 and the customer gives you a $20 bill. Right.

So, look at your till and grab 1, that makes $9. Grab another $1, that makes $10. Grab a $10 and there you have the $20. It's easy and you really don't have to stop and think too much. You can focus on your customer rapport that way.

I was taught long ago by long time shop keepers. I worked in the first video store around her in early 80s. I was lucky enough to be taught by the owner's mother who at mid-60s back then had already spent most of her working life in retail.

Unfortunately, I don't buy GS cookies (not on my menu) but whenever I encounter somebody having difficulty, I teach them this method.

I think it disappeared when cash registers started telling how much to give back.

another example of deskilling the population.

and scanners when fast and accurate cashiers were in high demand? It was a hard job and if you were good you actually had to do more work because everbody got in YOUR line.

Or maybe she's special ed and the girl scouts are inclusive.

I wouldn't panic about education in general because you ran into one girl who couldn't do a simple math calculation.

Some people ate so negative. AlwAys looking for the slightest excuse to claim the whole world sucks.

When people come across a genius kid we don't see generalization about how great education is.

I'm not sure this one incident is cause for concern.

I'm pretty good at math (BS and MS in engineering) but sometimes even I get "stuck" figuring out change when I make a purchase. I wouldn't read too much into one event and generalize it to an entire educational system.

As this scout probably did. But even if this wasn't a strength for her, it doesn't indict the whole educational system.

I paid $5 a couple of weeks ago.

Just bought a case. Vegan GS cookies are simultaneously a gift and a curse.

Last year, ours were $3.50, went to $4.00 this year. And they are worth half that for the amount of cookies you get and the dollars that actually get to the Girl Scouts who sell them. It is only an average of $.50 that the local troops get.

I get the keebler grasshoppers on sale.

Just kidding. But they were $4 the last time I got them.

that kids in her classes REFUSE to read the books she assigns. They're not mean about it or anything. They simply say: "it's too long," "it's too hard," "I had no time," etc. However, wherever I go, I see kids texting on their phones, kids on their Wii, kids on their computers (but not doing schoolwork). They're spending their time doing other things. Certainly not studying. They don't want to, and they (apparently) are not forced to.

It is amazing that kids would refuse to complete a valid assignment and get away with it. Their parents are not doing them any favors by supporting such behavior and not taking the side of the teacher.

But they're the first ones to blame the teachers when their kids turn out uneducated.

Parenting is so different then it was when I was a child. If I had pulled a stunt like refusing to do an assignment because it was too much work I would have been in big trouble at home.

Too many parents are trying to be a cross between their kids' best pals and daily Santa Claus. Maybe some of it has to do with the fact that life nowadays is usually suburbia, and everyone is holed-up inside their homes with technology and not much else.

It's not like it used to be - do your homework, and go outside to play (physical activity) until dinner, then watch some tv or read a book.

Now it's Iphone, Ipod, Ipad, Wii, computer games, TV (with 1000 channels). Unhealthy in every way.

Our local school district recently passed a policy that effectively every kid moves on instead of failing a grade.

And they really aren't doing the work required anymore. Huge amounts of kids would be flunked out.

We both agree the kids are lacking sever knowledge. At least this way, you would not be sending mixed signals by letting the kid believe s/he can do nothing and still progress.

when in truth, it's bad parents or excessively lenient parents.

I can tell you moving the kid on isn't it.

to do no work and get good grades without effort?

several students plagiarizing on their term papers. She flunked them on the assignment which, of course, caused an uproar from their parents. The school backed the parents and not the teacher and made her change the grades. What was the lesson that the parents taught their little darlings? Cheating is ok. It was a big ethics fail on the part of the students, their parents, and school administration.

I remember watching an episode of Oprah quite a while back and there were 2 or 3 families that agreed to unplug and also not spend money for one month. One of the families had a 5 year old that just walked around the house crying when they put away the electronic game he played through the TV. He had no idea what to do with himself because all he ever did was play electronic games. It was the first time that his parents actually realized what they had allowed to happen to the kid. He was like a drug addict without the next fix or an alcoholic without the next drink. It was pretty sad.

Nowadays kids don't play with other kids because distances are too far between families (suburbia and all that). Everyone is holed up in their house. When I was a kid, I played outside every day with other kids. Now? I don't know any kids that just go home, do homework and spend the rest of the afternoon playing outside till dinnertime.

I graduated high school in the early 90's. Did 1 year of university. Dropped out...got married had kids etc. Got a divorce...went back to school.

I'm seriously shocked at how much students complain about what is assigned and how much profs let them get away with! Seriously! That just didn't happen my first time around. At all. If you didn't finish something, too bad for you! Now, profs bend over backwards to help students who don't do assignments hand things in late. Not all profs mind you, but a good many of them. Or if student whine about something too hard, the prof will make it easier. It's CRAZY! It's great for me (since I really AM usually busy, since I'm a single mom of 4) but I'm shocked about how accommodating profs are now...20 years after my first go 'round.

they won't do it. They try to get out of it, try to extend the deadlines, try to get extra credit so they could pass the course when they've neglected to do the necessary work, and so on.

Professors have had to become accommodating just as teachers have, because parents insist that their children should be given every break imaginable. Back when I taught, I had parents telling me anything from: your assignments are too hard, my child shouldn't have to read *every* night, and even, "If you don't change his grade, it's going to affect his college entrance, so I'm just going to have to talk to the principal about it."

It's not really the kids, per se, it's the parents that have created the problem.

they aren't doing their children any favors. They set them up for long term issues when they enter the workforce and have no idea how to do anything and don't want to work hard. I have 4 kids and my oldest tries to pull the "oh, but it's SO hard and SO much work" but I just tell her then she has to work harder to get it done. This is a kid who wasn't very coordinated and had troubles riding her bike without training wheels...and so practiced on the grass in the back yard for hours every single day until she was confident enough to go on the road. It took about a month of riding her bike every day. I really admired her work ethic at the time...now I wonder where it went!

I had a teacher in 4th grade that had taught mostly in Africa and she had never taught in North America before. She was giving us 4-5 hours of homework a night and a lot of kids were falling asleep in class because they were up late trying to get stuff done. I didn't have problems because I was a whiz at homework so it only took *ME* 1-2 hours a night, but some of the slower kids had big problems. The parents held a meeting (my parents brought me, I don't know why, I was the only kid there, I think they thought it was 'meet the teacher night') and the other parents were so nasty to her they made her cry. She had no idea - she said kids in Africa usually asked her for more homework! Yeah, um, not here that's for sure. She ended up being one of my favorite teachers, because she tried really hard to make sure to include us in designing our own activities and really got us going creatively (we wrote our own Christmas concert song with her). And she continued to give homework...just not as much.

by kids that are allowed to proclaim that everything and anything is too much effort.

That's interesting about the teacher that taught in Africa. I taught in Spain, and found that kids there are used to reading the books teachers assign, doing their homework, doing practices, and studying. Not only did I not encounter the whining teachers encounter here, but the parents will simply not tolerate whininess from their kids when it comes to studying and doing assignments. Here, it's an everyday thing, the whininess. It's one of the reasons I switched careers. I won't put up with the laziness kids are allowed in this country. It's bad for the kids, and a ridiculous joke for any teacher to try to teach to lazy kids.

I don't really know how these generations will function. I doubt they'll be able to function well.

Been out of the writing loop for decades. Anyway, there is a new genre called flash fiction where the story is limited to 500 or 1000 words. It's very popular. The story still has to follow standard story rules, a conflict, some action & then resolution. For those of us who grew up reading, do you know how few words 500-1000 is? It's about 2-4 pages double spaced. After much angst I have one story that is acceptable at 998 words. I've tried to pare it down to 500 & it has been more angst than I want right now.

"If this is at all indicative of the state of basic education in the country today, we are royally and truly screwed."

But I don't think the fact that one young girl that you bought cookies from can't do basic math is indicative of the state of basic education in our country today.

Seeing proof first hand means something.

Seeing actual proof does mean something. But the fact that one student out of millions couldn't do an easy math problem in her head isn''t proof....it's just an anecdote.

yes indeed

Girl Scout cookies are selling for $3.50 per box in Oklahoma.

She is as inept at math as I was, and still am

I've always despised math

Show me a group of numbers and my brain shuts down completely. Hate it. Despise it. Don't give a rat's furry ass about it

And at 61 I find there are times when I still have to count on my fingers. I finally figured out how to make change, but it was years...decades...after 5th grade

Not always the fault of the education system. Sometimes people's brains are just not wired for certain subjects/skills

I graduated from college with a BS and was in the top 10% of my class. I got through 4 different chemistry classes to graduate. So I think I must be at least of average intelligence. But to this day, beyond the simplest math I am lost. My brain just does not understand abstract concepts. I look at algebraic formulas and they might as well be in Chinese.

I also hate playing most card games. To me it's another abstract thing that you have to figure out in your head--how to figure out a strategy, keep track of what cards have been played, what others are holding..... It always made me feel stupid and embarrassed. I finally figured out that my brain is just not wired that way. I can create a cool piece of art, or work out a design problem with no sweat--just keep the numbers away from me, lol!