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Harmony Blue

(3,978 posts)
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 12:10 PM Feb 2014

Women need to step up to the plate if they want to stop objectifcation

The super model industry features models that are 5-10 to 6-1 fee tall and have slender builds. This is a purposeful choice from a marketing point of view, and industry, because this is what most females perceive to be beautiful not men. The female customer dominates spending on female clothing and lingerie. It is extremely rare, by the numbers, that males are compelled to buy female clothing because they are not the target audience. If men were the target audience the super models would be 5-5, and curvier.

We as men can assist in stopping objectification, but women must be the driving force to change the fashion industry because they are the biggest spender. Women must vote with their wallets to create real change because talking down to males about how objectification is bad doesn't solve the core problem..it just punts it down the line.





177 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Women need to step up to the plate if they want to stop objectifcation (Original Post) Harmony Blue Feb 2014 OP
Another objectification thread... DontTreadOnMe Feb 2014 #1
it's all objectification . dont tell me women dont do it too leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #14
sexuality and objectification is NOT the same thing,,, VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #26
what is your definition of sexuality leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #112
sexuality isn't dehumanizing...it is quite simple to understand... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #142
i read all that and thankyou for responding but what i wanted was YOUR defintion of leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #147
I don't owe you an explanation of sexuality....if you don't know the difference VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #155
i didnt say you OWED me anything and im not looking to borrow your definition leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #156
I think at this point Dorian Gray Feb 2014 #109
You're injecting abject object-rejections to ejections. Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #124
lol clever leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #158
WTF does that even mean? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #143
I know what objectification is Dorian Gray Feb 2014 #167
apparently you don't .....you asked I answered...you just don't like the answer... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #171
I didn't ask Dorian Gray Feb 2014 #172
yes but are they objectifying objectification objectively leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #159
women gotta stop rape too! another "objectification" thread brought to DU by those "militant".... bettyellen Feb 2014 #2
Perhaps you missed the celebration of this company's example hlthe2b Feb 2014 #3
LOL you lost. get over it. Whisp Feb 2014 #4
*** L0oniX Feb 2014 #5
What does this mean - RBStevens Feb 2014 #6
Here's a thread that could use your incite. GeorgeGist Feb 2014 #7
and look what happens when we do even on a "progressive" site TorchTheWitch Feb 2014 #8
Actually, I agree with your comments about the fashion industry theHandpuppet Feb 2014 #9
Because the models used to get men's attention are 5-5 and curvy, right? Gormy Cuss Feb 2014 #10
"objectification" merely externalizes blame for how the fashion industry sells to women. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #11
Wow--scary. nt msanthrope Feb 2014 #13
No kidding. ConservativeDemocrat Feb 2014 #36
That is PasadenaTrudy Feb 2014 #137
Not selling to men, but the fashion industry is run by men. cui bono Feb 2014 #98
That's an amazing JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #121
I hope she's on the road to recovery. Sheesh. Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #125
LOL BainsBane Feb 2014 #12
Well I know in our case JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #122
Obvious poster is obvious CreekDog Feb 2014 #15
Trash 3,2,1 ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #16
this is the best answer to the problem. you dont like a sports illustrated op then just trash it leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #161
For starter, women should stop wearing makeup FarCenter Feb 2014 #17
Glad to see you bravely rec'd your own thread. Starry Messenger Feb 2014 #18
But, why should I have to worry about this? Zorra Feb 2014 #19
Pfffft. Unrec. n/t demmiblue Feb 2014 #20
The petty squabbling from all sides of these issues Vashta Nerada Feb 2014 #21
hahahaha THAT's RICH! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #27
Hi. Cleita Feb 2014 #106
Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT. In_The_Wind Feb 2014 #126
I work nights.....got a problem with that? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #144
lol Sheldon Cooper Feb 2014 #22
That physique is what makes CLOTHES LOOK GOOD, Waiting For Everyman Feb 2014 #23
congratulations on the three recommendations you got for this thread CreekDog Feb 2014 #24
I disagree with some of the wording but there's a good point here. AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #25
actually if you read the thread....you would see that YOU are again wrong... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #28
What denial? nt AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #29
You are going from thread to thread to thread to deny sexism and objectification VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #30
That is simply not true. AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #31
You JUST agreed with a OP that blamed WOMEN!!!!! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #32
That's honestly not the impression I got. AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #34
apparently according other posters in this thread....yeah you are.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #40
"apparently according other posters in this thread....yeah you are...." AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #64
You know exactly what is going on here... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #68
What games? AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #72
You know EXACTLY what games.....the games that want to stifle women's voices... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #140
"I know realize the situation is MUCH worse....." AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #145
OH yes there is....there are places on DU that allow and even encourage VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #146
You mean the Men's Forum? AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #148
Yeah...go there and have your stomach turned.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #149
There's probably a lot worse being uncovered by ManBoobz, though. AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #150
Not talking about some nebulous "other site" I am talking about THIS one... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #154
You seem to have misunderstood my point. AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #157
sexual intimidation. what a joke leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #163
Post removed Post removed Feb 2014 #114
"the harpies at HoF" sufrommich Feb 2014 #115
That's what I said. Soundman Feb 2014 #116
If you're going to refer to women as harpies sufrommich Feb 2014 #117
he won't be calling anyone anything for a while. nt geek tragedy Feb 2014 #152
Good to know,another one bites sufrommich Feb 2014 #165
see ya, sexist troll Kali Feb 2014 #153
The cadaver x-ray look the fashion industry loves so much Sarah Ibarruri Feb 2014 #33
There is no objectification except in some sick minds. Cleita Feb 2014 #35
I disagree. That's what football exists for. seattledo Feb 2014 #37
This message was self-deleted by its author Cleita Feb 2014 #38
A hero aint nothin' but a sandwich Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #48
A jury should hide that picture Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #118
surely you mean soccer Skittles Feb 2014 #53
No, actually, idealizing skinny, physically weak women is a product of infantilization. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #41
I've run into those physically weak women in the gym. Cleita Feb 2014 #44
It's as if you don't bother to read or comprehend what others say to you at all. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #46
You guys are getting so amusing, but I was told to be Cleita Feb 2014 #47
You literally don't know what objectification means. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #49
Not your version. My version has a mop and drudgery involved but Cleita Feb 2014 #50
Is saying 2+2=4 "my version" of basic arithmetic? Do you realize how foolish you sound? Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #51
LOL! Cleita Feb 2014 #54
Let me ask you a serious question... Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #55
Pretty much. Cleita Feb 2014 #57
Do you make it a habit of laughing at serious subjects? Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #60
No. I worry about fracking on the coast of California. Cleita Feb 2014 #66
This just sounds like you're resentful your OPs on fracking didn't get enough recs and responses... Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #69
Ugh. Cleita Feb 2014 #73
I know you don't understand how serious this issue is considering Cleita Feb 2014 #76
The question you asked is do "we" work in shifts. I can't answer that question... Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #77
Of course you don't. Cleita Feb 2014 #79
Do you seriously believe there's a group conspiring to post in shifts on this website? Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #82
There seems to be shifts. It's very odd. Cleita Feb 2014 #83
It may seem like it but there is no shift work going on. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #85
Probably cuz most people have you on ignore by now. cui bono Feb 2014 #86
Thanks for the bump and I really wish the people who hate Cleita Feb 2014 #87
I don't think they're playing. cui bono Feb 2014 #89
I,wish they would go into the fracking thread and make fun it. Cleita Feb 2014 #91
I have no desire to make fun of fracking. I know it's a real issue. And even if I didn't know it cui bono Feb 2014 #93
Red herrings and straw men. Cleita Feb 2014 #95
How is that? You told me to go ahead and make fun of fracking. cui bono Feb 2014 #97
But you haven't Cleita Feb 2014 #99
So you're avoiding the questions and issueentirely now? cui bono Feb 2014 #101
This message was self-deleted by its author leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #164
How does changing the parameters of beauty solve anything? Shankapotomus Feb 2014 #39
+1000 Cleita Feb 2014 #59
I'm 5'11" and slender.... blueamy66 Feb 2014 #42
Don't pay attention to them. You are of course entitled to get clothes that fit you. Cleita Feb 2014 #52
It has just been in the last 10 years that designers blueamy66 Feb 2014 #103
I have the opposite problem. Cleita Feb 2014 #105
I always thought "at least short girls can have some length removed"... blueamy66 Feb 2014 #107
You could go back to the late 60s and sew some MineralMan Feb 2014 #123
Thanks for the tip, but I'm okay these days. blueamy66 Feb 2014 #127
I was just kidding, really. MineralMan Feb 2014 #129
See, us tall girls loved those 501s. blueamy66 Feb 2014 #131
Yup. And 6'2" was tall for a guy back then, too. MineralMan Feb 2014 #132
I was stick thin as well. Hated it. blueamy66 Feb 2014 #133
Only if you are skilled at clothing construction especially pants. It's very Cleita Feb 2014 #134
True. But that's what tailors are for. blueamy66 Feb 2014 #136
I found that too expensive. I just don't buy anything that doesn't fit right Cleita Feb 2014 #139
You absolutely should be allowed to find clothes to fit your body type. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #56
Yes but she should never see a model wear them because .... Cleita Feb 2014 #58
Where did I say that? Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #61
Your own post on this thread # 41 Cleita Feb 2014 #63
Not only does that post not say what you claim, I've also said that thin women are not the problem. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #65
I don't really care. Cleita Feb 2014 #67
No, I'm not happy at all. How could I be happy in this circumstance? Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #70
Well when you learn communication skills Cleita Feb 2014 #71
Name a part of what I'm saying that doesn't make sense and I'll reexplain it for you. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #74
You so make me laugh. Cleita Feb 2014 #75
I'm being serious. You said I've said things that don't make sense. Point them out... Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #78
Okay. Why do you and your lady friends in those forums I can't post in Cleita Feb 2014 #81
I don't think anyone of the accused hates a woman for using her sexuality to earn a living. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #84
No one hates the women. Can you link to a post that actually says that? cui bono Feb 2014 #92
Post removed Post removed Feb 2014 #90
I know a lot about women's issues, Cleita Feb 2014 #94
Well you don't know how to not be presumptuous. cui bono Feb 2014 #96
It's always us hating women, KitSileya Feb 2014 #100
I hope she answers my question of why she so adamantly argues that there is no objectification. cui bono Feb 2014 #102
It's the well-known republican attitude of "I've got mine, FU" KitSileya Feb 2014 #104
+1 Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #170
+1 R B Garr Feb 2014 #176
And furthermore, can I help it if I am 5'11" and slender? blueamy66 Feb 2014 #110
Trash Katashi_itto Feb 2014 #43
So trashy. Cleita Feb 2014 #45
Remember always, divide and conquer 7wo7rees Feb 2014 #62
Have you seen what happens even on DU when women "step up to the plate"? Recursion Feb 2014 #80
thank you, Recursion for your voice. n/t Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #169
Women can't change the entire fashion industry by not buying all that clothing. cui bono Feb 2014 #88
I have Dorian Gray Feb 2014 #108
Amen. blueamy66 Feb 2014 #111
Good post. Bobbie Jo Feb 2014 #113
there already is a use of normal sized models treestar Feb 2014 #119
I would never be able JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #120
hypocrites.... blueamy66 Feb 2014 #128
You said it! JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #130
So the burden is always on the discrimination TARGETS not the perpetrators? alp227 Feb 2014 #135
I don't blame women for this one. MicaelS Feb 2014 #138
A Lot of Women Objectify Men Dirty Socialist Feb 2014 #141
This sound bad, if you insert another group and another problem it shuts that thing right down. bravenak Feb 2014 #151
Awesome!!! Sheldon Cooper Feb 2014 #160
^^^^^^^^^^^THANK YOU^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #168
Yes! this ^^^^ nt laundry_queen Feb 2014 #173
Terrible op. bravenak Feb 2014 #174
yeah, cuz baseball is our best sport. n/t librechik Feb 2014 #162
What about men who insult me, an adult female, to my face? Manifestor_of_Light Feb 2014 #166
Girls can't do math, is the reason I'm just finding out at 32 years old, that i CAN do math. bravenak Feb 2014 #175
There are lots of really shitty math teachers. Manifestor_of_Light Feb 2014 #177
 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
142. sexuality isn't dehumanizing...it is quite simple to understand...
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:04 PM
Feb 2014

Objectification is a notion central to feminist theory. It can be roughly defined as the seeing and/or treating a person, usually a woman, as an object. In this entry, the focus is primarily on sexual objectification, objectification occurring in the sexual realm. Martha Nussbaum (1995, 257) has identified seven features that are involved in the idea of treating a person as an object:

instrumentality: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier's purposes;
denial of autonomy: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination;
inertness: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity;
fungibility: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects;
violability: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity;
ownership: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold);
denial of subjectivity: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account.

 

leftyohiolib

(5,917 posts)
147. i read all that and thankyou for responding but what i wanted was YOUR defintion of
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:30 PM
Feb 2014

sexuality. what you did was tell me what it wasnt then went on to tell me about objectification. im not trying to harrass but i would like to know what your definition of sexuality is. not the dictionary entry but your definition

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
155. I don't owe you an explanation of sexuality....if you don't know the difference
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:54 PM
Feb 2014

then I suggest you do some research...

Objectivity is most certainly NOT sexuality....but here I can define for you what it ISN'T:

Objectification is a notion central to feminist theory. It can be roughly defined as the seeing and/or treating a person, usually a woman, as an object. In this entry, the focus is primarily on sexual objectification, objectification occurring in the sexual realm. Martha Nussbaum (1995, 257) has identified seven features that are involved in the idea of treating a person as an object:

instrumentality: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier's purposes;
denial of autonomy: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination;
inertness: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity;
fungibility: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects;
violability: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity;
ownership: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold);
denial of subjectivity: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account.

 

leftyohiolib

(5,917 posts)
156. i didnt say you OWED me anything and im not looking to borrow your definition
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:58 PM
Feb 2014

it's not that hard, i'd like to know what your definition of sexuality is and not what it isnt

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
143. WTF does that even mean?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:06 PM
Feb 2014

You cannot objectify an object, a thread is an object...but that shows you level of understanding this subject....

Objectification is a notion central to feminist theory. It can be roughly defined as the seeing and/or treating a person, usually a woman, as an object. In this entry, the focus is primarily on sexual objectification, objectification occurring in the sexual realm. Martha Nussbaum (1995, 257) has identified seven features that are involved in the idea of treating a person as an object:

instrumentality: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier's purposes;
denial of autonomy: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination;
inertness: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity;
fungibility: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects;
violability: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity;
ownership: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold);
denial of subjectivity: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account.

Dorian Gray

(13,503 posts)
172. I didn't ask
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:07 PM
Feb 2014

I was being sarcastic about another thread about women being objectified needs to be stopped by women themselves. The OP was obnoxious. I was being silly and dismissive of the whole topic created by Harmony Blue..... I never asked any questions regarding objectivism.

The inanity of my first post shouldn't require being lectured as a response.

I was responding to someone saying Make these posts stop with nonsense. It appears other people realized the nonsensical nature of my post. You're the only one who responded angrily.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
2. women gotta stop rape too! another "objectification" thread brought to DU by those "militant"....
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 12:14 PM
Feb 2014

oh wait, it's not. It's flame bait.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
4. LOL you lost. get over it.
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 12:20 PM
Feb 2014

The support of so many good men and women these past few days/weeks here on DU overwhelms the whiney poor me blame the women folks.

you lost.

 

RBStevens

(227 posts)
6. What does this mean -
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 12:35 PM
Feb 2014

"If men were the target audience the super models would be 5-5, and curvier."

Are you saying that this is what men *want*?

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
9. Actually, I agree with your comments about the fashion industry
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 12:51 PM
Feb 2014

But I think you undermine what is a legitimate topic for discussion by the way you couched the argument. Rather than pose the issue in a way that makes it clear this is a continuation of the objectification debate (and in a rather accusatory tone towards women), why not just post the topic as sufficient unto itself if the aim is to foster a cogent debate?

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
11. "objectification" merely externalizes blame for how the fashion industry sells to women.
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 01:21 PM
Feb 2014


I can tell you with absolute certainty that this model wasn't chosen to sell stuff to men.

Say what you will about the SI bikini models, but they at least appear healthy.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
36. No kidding.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 01:40 AM
Feb 2014

I think that's called "heroin-chic". At the very least, it's anorexic.

And take it from me. The vast majority of men don't find that attractive at all.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
98. Not selling to men, but the fashion industry is run by men.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:33 AM
Feb 2014

And it's still setting up that as an ideal for young women to aspire to which leads to a whole lot of eating disorders.

I don't know when/where that pic is from, but I remember reading a few years ago that a few cities were not allowing such underweight models to walk the runway any more.

JustAnotherGen

(31,924 posts)
122. Well I know in our case
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:25 AM
Feb 2014

A trip down memory lane was very enlightening yesterday

My friend - keep calm and buy a new handbag. Then post it at DU. And then I'll post a pic of my newest Bagghy handbag. Hilarity and laughter will ensue. You deserve it for the good fight you've fought here lately!

And the same people who tout SI as the highest of high fashion advice sure did give you a lot of shit back in the day. Just saying . . . but it's OUR fault ya know?




*merrily making mischief that I believe BainsBane will 'get'*

 

leftyohiolib

(5,917 posts)
161. this is the best answer to the problem. you dont like a sports illustrated op then just trash it
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 07:06 PM
Feb 2014

and move on with your life

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
19. But, why should I have to worry about this?
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 05:35 PM
Feb 2014

I just wanna have fun. Really. That's all. Like the message of this old feminist video from the 80's.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
21. The petty squabbling from all sides of these issues
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 05:42 PM
Feb 2014

is at the point of ridiculousness, pathetic, and trolling.

Seriously. Is anyone really going to change their minds from these types of threads?

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
27. hahahaha THAT's RICH!
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 11:39 PM
Feb 2014

You have been one of the main culprits going around from thread to thread denying it...

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
106. Hi.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 07:06 AM
Feb 2014

Don't you sleep? You seem to be around, around the clock. Or are there several of you to be around? I'm noticing these things. I'm asking is all. Things seem rather strange to me.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
144. I work nights.....got a problem with that?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:09 PM
Feb 2014

and I work from home....

Is that the pattern you failed to consider?

Waiting For Everyman

(9,385 posts)
23. That physique is what makes CLOTHES LOOK GOOD,
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 07:05 PM
Feb 2014

not what women perceive to be beautiful. It's not up to men either. It is decided by the fashion industry.

Girls and young women aspire to that standard because they would like to be fashion models someday... much like young males want to be professional sports stars... to have the big money and fame that goes with it.

Yes, other females copy the model standard too, but it is in more of an unfocused way "just because" others regard it highly now too, because of the original reason stated above.

Women did not decide this.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
24. congratulations on the three recommendations you got for this thread
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 10:41 PM
Feb 2014

2 of them from posters other than yourself.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
25. I disagree with some of the wording but there's a good point here.
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 11:20 PM
Feb 2014

I honestly do believe that progressive-minded people need to step up and do their part, not just men, and not even just women, but *both* genders.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
28. actually if you read the thread....you would see that YOU are again wrong...
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 11:40 PM
Feb 2014

you keep trying....and keep failing! EPICALLY!

Why don't you just listen to actual WOMEN! The vast majority have been trying to educate you...

denial is NOT a river in Egypt.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
30. You are going from thread to thread to thread to deny sexism and objectification
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 11:47 PM
Feb 2014

over and over....in THIS iteration you are trying to blame women themselves...in another conversation about male privilege you seemed to understand racism....but discount sexism apparently...(btw blaming women for it is EXACTLY like blaming Black people for racism...)

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
31. That is simply not true.
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 11:55 PM
Feb 2014

What I said was, I think progressive-minded people from both genders need to solve these problems, *together*. There was NO denial of sexism OR objectification anywhere in any of my posts.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
32. You JUST agreed with a OP that blamed WOMEN!!!!!
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 12:34 AM
Feb 2014

duh..you AGREED!

This isn't happening in a vacuum....you are going from thread to thread to spread this bunk...You seem to have a mission...

You cannot go from place to place to deny there is White Male Privilege And then go agree with a thread that blames women for objectification and think No one will notice your AGENDA!

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
34. That's honestly not the impression I got.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 01:08 AM
Feb 2014

Of course, I could potentially be wrong but I didn't get the impression he was blaming women for objectification.


You cannot go from place to place to deny there is White Male Privilege And then go agree with a thread that blames women for objectification and think No one will notice your AGENDA!


I don't have an agenda, and that's the problem.
 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
40. apparently according other posters in this thread....yeah you are....
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:05 AM
Feb 2014

others in this thread if you bothered to read them instead of looking for more places to post your sexist statements also said EXACTLY that....if you read instead you might learn something FROM women....


Me thinks thou protesteth too much....

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
64. "apparently according other posters in this thread....yeah you are...."
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:36 AM
Feb 2014

According to whom, exactly?

"your sexist statements also said EXACTLY that"


Proof, please.

Me thinks thou protesteth too much.....


I could honestly have said the same thing to you.....but in that case, it'd actually have some merit to it.
 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
68. You know exactly what is going on here...
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:42 AM
Feb 2014

Other people in this thread....called this OP that....and YOU agreed with the OP...THATS what I was talking about...

Now stop playing these games you are playing.....I have learned even more about this situation recently at DU. I ain't buying this "they are not really sexist" or not trying to use sexual intimidation against women of this Forum....NOT ANYMORE!

THAT is exactly what is going on.....and either you are part of it....or you are an Ally!
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
72. What games?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:55 AM
Feb 2014

"THATS what I was talking about..."

That wasn't clear, TBH; it seemed like you were accusing me of saying stuff.

Anyway, I realize I'm not perfect.....but I do try. Take that as you will.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
140. You know EXACTLY what games.....the games that want to stifle women's voices...
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:42 PM
Feb 2014

by creating a hostile environment...

I know realize the situation is MUCH worse than a few dunderheaded men that just do not understand the plights of other people...

Oh its much more than that....THIS has been a concerted effort to stifle the voices of women on DU. That is what a hostile environment does...

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
145. "I know realize the situation is MUCH worse....."
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:25 PM
Feb 2014

I'm honestly afraid that you're quite mistaken, V.R. There *is no* conspiracy/"concerted effort"/etc. to silence women on DU. There never has been(just as there's no widespread racism on DU, etc.). Do you think Skinner & EarlG would put up with such a thing if it were happening? (FWIW, BennyBoy seems to have been banned recently for misogyny)

A few idiots spewing B.S. on occasion doesn't equal vast conspiracy.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
146. OH yes there is....there are places on DU that allow and even encourage
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:29 PM
Feb 2014

this behavior....

to want to be able to carry it into GD IS nothing more than an excuse for sexual intimidation....its the same cast of characthers...

Don't tell me I don't know when "sexism" is occurring....you SIR wouldn't know it if slapped you in the face.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
148. You mean the Men's Forum?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:36 PM
Feb 2014

I've been thru there a few times. And no doubt there's some idiocy there.


Don't tell me I don't know when "sexism" is occurring....you SIR wouldn't know it if slapped you in the face.


Never once claimed or implied that, anyway. All I said is that there's no vast concerted conspiracy to silence women on DU(if there was, you can bet I'd be yelling about it all day!). And there isn't, really. There may be a few morons out there, but that's all.
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
150. There's probably a lot worse being uncovered by ManBoobz, though.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:58 PM
Feb 2014

Maybe you've heard of Dave Futrelle's site by now, btw? If not, he's supposed to be one of the best MRA debunkers there is out there.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
157. You seem to have misunderstood my point.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 07:00 PM
Feb 2014

Yes, I understand there have been a few problems on DU. Given the fact that this is kind of a big tent site, we're going to have a few malcontents here and there; not much we can do about that except deal with those who cross into trolling, like Bennyboy did.

However, again, there is a lot worse that could be seen than just a few morons spouting off on an otherwise rather civilized and progressive site. I pointed to Dave Futrelle's ManBoobz site because he has done a lot of research on MRAs and stuff and some of the B.S. screeds he's dug up that's been coming out of joints such as "A Voice for Men" and Heartiste are far worse than anything I've ever seen here; in fact, even the Men's Group probably wouldn't tolerate most of what's written in these places. In case you haven't visited it already, here's the URL

http://manboobz.com

Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #28)

 

Soundman

(297 posts)
116. That's what I said.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 09:37 AM
Feb 2014

That's how I feel, what are you going to do to change my mind? Yourself and other seemingly like minded people have espoused a theory. A theory that may or may not be true. And anyone who chooses to see things differently are berated, ganged up upon and generally reverse objectified. Too bad you can't see it. Seems to me the cause would be better served by building a consensus among those affected before slinging shit upon everyone else who doesn't buy into or even understand the theory.

sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
117. If you're going to refer to women as harpies
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 09:51 AM
Feb 2014

you probably shouldn't be lecturing those same women on their tone and lack of politeness. "Be nice or I'll call you derogatory names" doesn't suggest anything other than a stunning lack of maturity.


Polite women seldom make history.

Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
33. The cadaver x-ray look the fashion industry loves so much
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 12:43 AM
Feb 2014

This is the look that has been promoted by the fashion industry and the media for decades.

Look at the guys of Abercrombie and Fitch. Walking past their store you can see a huge photo generally of some incredibly skinny yet muscular, very young, photoshopped teen guy or guys. Same thing happens with women. The female models selected are also very young, slim and photoshopped to look like the perfect ideal of the men that run the fashion industry. The reason teen models are chosen, is because teens undergo a growth spurt during which the body growing upwards very quickly, and the body attempts to catch up to a normal weight but not quite as quickly (unless the teen eats mass quantities of food), and so it often looks skinny. They are also chosen because their face still retains a childlike quality it hasn't yet grown out of.

Media uses these picture-messages, and media surrounds us; it's ubiquitous, like oxygen, and we cannot escape it. It takes a gargantuan effort to not be subliminally swayed what the media dictates all around us, and by the rest of the population which has also swayed subliminally. Even if we did make the effort to resist, that effort would fail in light of the fact that we are even limited to buying products which are offered pursuant to the media's dictates. Here's an example of how you can't resist: would you wear knickers and a top hat to work? Of course not. You wish to fit in, and it might hamper your success in every sphere were you to ignore the dictates of the media, and therefore society. Same with everything else in society. We are slaves to the media, whether we like it or not.

Here's what Marshall McLuhan said that the media does to our brains:

Ideally, advertising aims at the goal of a programmed harmony among all human impulses and aspirations and endeavors. Using handicraft methods, it stretches out toward the ultimate electronic goal of a collective consciousness.

At first, people were highly skeptical of this assertion. However, this was later shown to be the case in numerous studies which have been carried out since. What's odd is that we need studies to believe it, and don't even notice the effect of the media upon us all. The easiest way to understand this is this: if we lived in a cave for 10 years and then returned to society, we would return to a society living by what the media has been promoting - the styles, the fads, the manner of speaking, the habits, etc.

Sure, we select one or two topics and protest those, but in most everything else, we are victims of the media because we are social animals.

Men are subject to the media and society's dictates just as much as women are. For ex., recently I heard some young guy say that Marilyn Monroe was "fat," and other young guys agreed. Marilyn Monroe? Fat? Really? But the cadaver, x-ray look is "in" because it has been promoted since the 60s through marketing, and our eyes have already grown accustomed to the cadaver look.

Same with teen models. We can see photoshopped teen models of 14, 15, 16 and 17 modeling clothing for women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, and it amazes me to no end. Models (both male and female) are required to starve themselves if they are to maintain a modeling career. Yet this is the standard our eyes have seen for decades, and we all believe these things are achievable. It's truly insane.





Cleita

(75,480 posts)
35. There is no objectification except in some sick minds.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 01:13 AM
Feb 2014

Actually, the skinniness is for the cameras that adds weight and the height for the runway so they can be seen. It just works that way. I haven't noticed men complaining because basketball players are unusually tall or football players unusually dense and heavy

 

seattledo

(295 posts)
37. I disagree. That's what football exists for.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 01:43 AM
Feb 2014

It's a sport for people that want heros of normal sizes.

Response to seattledo (Reply #37)

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
118. A jury should hide that picture
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:00 AM
Feb 2014

It objectifies the woman by portraying her as a thing to be served-up for consumption presumably by a man; hence the expression, "I want a sandwich, woman." No doubt this includes the sexual entendre or "eating out." It should also be noted only white bread was used to devour a white woman. Obviously the palate in question is not accustomed to anything non-white; leading us to conclude there is a racist component as well.

How'd I do? Do I sound like them?

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
41. No, actually, idealizing skinny, physically weak women is a product of infantilization.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:10 AM
Feb 2014

Which is the product of a society wanting to keep women psychologically and physically subordinate to men.

You don't seem to have the foggiest idea what it means to objectify.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
44. I've run into those physically weak women in the gym.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:34 AM
Feb 2014

You might be surprised by what they can bench press.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
49. You literally don't know what objectification means.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:57 AM
Feb 2014

Which is a central subject to this discussion. It would be like someone who has no concept of calculus trying to argue with me about the rules of derivatives.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
66. No. I worry about fracking on the coast of California.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:38 AM
Feb 2014

Yet no one seriously wants to read my post on it and give it a kick. If the oil companies have their way we all suffer and your little problems with image that most real women don't have time to worry about will be screwed. All of us together.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
69. This just sounds like you're resentful your OPs on fracking didn't get enough recs and responses...
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:45 AM
Feb 2014

Rather than a sincere suggestion that caring about female sexual, social and economic equality isn't a subject of worry for most "real women."

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
73. Ugh.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:56 AM
Feb 2014

May I ask you a question seriously? Do you guys work in shifts? It seems like you and Vanilla rhapsody are on at the same time.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
76. I know you don't understand how serious this issue is considering
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:16 AM
Feb 2014

there is a nuclear plant involved but you haven't answered my serious question. I answered yours so you kind of owe me the courtesy.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
77. The question you asked is do "we" work in shifts. I can't answer that question...
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:20 AM
Feb 2014

Because I don't know who you're talking about when you say "we."

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
79. Of course you don't.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:22 AM
Feb 2014

That's okay. It was a lame attempt on my part to get you to admit something you can't or don't want to.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
82. Do you seriously believe there's a group conspiring to post in shifts on this website?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:26 AM
Feb 2014

I post on this subject because it is important to me, not because I've been told to do so by anyone else.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
83. There seems to be shifts. It's very odd.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:30 AM
Feb 2014

Ever since your friends did the virtual gang bang alerts on me I started to notice. I'm probably wrong so I'm asking. I try to be fair rather than accuse so I'm asking.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
85. It may seem like it but there is no shift work going on.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:55 AM
Feb 2014

What you may be perceiving as sharing shifts is simply the product of many posters working certain hours in different time zones.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
86. Probably cuz most people have you on ignore by now.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 05:41 AM
Feb 2014

I don't know how anyone STILL can't understand objectification of women and its implications.

It's long past the time when this issue started being talked about. And by long past I mean decades. Please catch up. Women don't need your mockery.


Cleita

(75,480 posts)
87. Thanks for the bump and I really wish the people who hate
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 05:49 AM
Feb 2014

me have me on ignore. It it seems they would rather play with me than ignore me.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
89. I don't think they're playing.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 05:53 AM
Feb 2014

Though you seem to be. If you don't take something seriously why do you keep posting in threads about the subject when you know others do take it seriously.

You mention your fracking thread... how would you like it if people came in there and made fun of that subject? It's clearly a serious issue. If someone came in and ridiculed it and was rude to you and others who cared about it and are affected by it how would you like that?

Objectification of women is a serious issue with serious implications. Why do you keep feeling the need to ridicule it?

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
91. I,wish they would go into the fracking thread and make fun it.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:02 AM
Feb 2014

It would have traffic and people would be outraged at the stupidity but then they would learn something. Please go into the fracking thread, make fun of it. Be prepared for the derision, but save our planet.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
93. I have no desire to make fun of fracking. I know it's a real issue. And even if I didn't know it
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:07 AM
Feb 2014

I wouldn't go in and make fun of it when I was ignorant about it. I would read it and learn.

Why don't you care about saving women's rights then? Or are you just ignorant and making fun of it even though you don't understand the issue? It's one or the other because it is a real issue.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
97. How is that? You told me to go ahead and make fun of fracking.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:15 AM
Feb 2014

I responded to your post directly then asked you why you don't care about women's rights. You are spending a lot of time in a lot of threads arguing against them.

How is it red herrings and straw men?

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
101. So you're avoiding the questions and issueentirely now?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:39 AM
Feb 2014

Fine. I'm not surprised. Not surprised by your lack of comprehension exhibited by this last post of yours either. I made it clear that I know fracking is an issue and have no desire to ridicule it. Your post makes absolutely no sense.

Still wondering about the red herrings and straw men accusation. If you feel like answering be sure to include the previous questions' answers as well.

Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #51)

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)
39. How does changing the parameters of beauty solve anything?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 01:48 AM
Feb 2014

All it would do is just objectify women based on a different set of criteria.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
52. Don't pay attention to them. You are of course entitled to get clothes that fit you.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:01 AM
Feb 2014

Sometimes I wonder about the women here who don't support other women.

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
103. It has just been in the last 10 years that designers
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:44 AM
Feb 2014

are offering pants that fit my 36" inseam.

I remember, as a teenager, searching forever to find a pair of jeans/pants that were long enough.

The OP pisses me off.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
105. I have the opposite problem.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:58 AM
Feb 2014

I'm 5' 1" and most pants are too long on me if I gain some weight. So I have to stay thin to find clothes that fit me. But I love the fashion shows with all the lovely tall girls and clothes.

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
107. I always thought "at least short girls can have some length removed"...
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 07:15 AM
Feb 2014

You really cannot add fabric. 😄

MineralMan

(146,336 posts)
123. You could go back to the late 60s and sew some
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:26 AM
Feb 2014

cool-looking paisley fabric on the legs. OTOH, that was not one of the better style memes of that period.

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
127. Thanks for the tip, but I'm okay these days.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:59 AM
Feb 2014

Old Navy, Gap, Lucky, AZ Jean Company, Cruel Girl, A&F, Banana Republic, among others, have tall girl lengths now. It's quite nice to be able to buy a pair of jeans that is long enough.

I remember stealing my brother's Levi button-ups as a teenager....

MineralMan

(146,336 posts)
129. I was just kidding, really.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:04 AM
Feb 2014

Women are taller on average today than they were when I was in high school, I think. My HS girlfriend, though, was 5' 11". Back then, if she wanted to wear jeans, men's jeans were the only ones that would fit. I was 6' 2" in HS, and she cleverly stole a pair of my 501s by borrowing them and never quite returning them.

These days, lots of women are tall. I'm not sure why that is, though.

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
131. See, us tall girls loved those 501s.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:55 AM
Feb 2014

It's funny, cause when I played ball in HS and college, 5'11" was tall. Now, when I go watch my old HS basketball games, I feel short!!!! Yeah!!!!!

It's so cool to be tall now!!!

MineralMan

(146,336 posts)
132. Yup. And 6'2" was tall for a guy back then, too.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 12:01 PM
Feb 2014

I'm a bit shorter than that now, at age 68, but I've noticed that men are taller on average than they once were. Of course, back in high school, when I was a 6'2" kid, my waist size was 28. I was a skinny kid. Today, not so much.

So, those 501s fit my girl friend pretty well. She looked cute in them, but she looked cute in pretty much anything, as I remember, looking through my old man memory glasses. LOL!

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
133. I was stick thin as well. Hated it.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 12:25 PM
Feb 2014

Now I have filled out and long for the skinny days.

501s rock!

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
134. Only if you are skilled at clothing construction especially pants. It's very
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 01:29 PM
Feb 2014

hard to get them even.

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
136. True. But that's what tailors are for.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 01:50 PM
Feb 2014

I used to scour the racks for pants with big hems and then take them to the tailor to have the hem let out.

Banana Republic will do it for free.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
139. I found that too expensive. I just don't buy anything that doesn't fit right
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:17 PM
Feb 2014

and I have to stay reasonably thin.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
65. Not only does that post not say what you claim, I've also said that thin women are not the problem.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:37 AM
Feb 2014

Many times actually.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
70. No, I'm not happy at all. How could I be happy in this circumstance?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:47 AM
Feb 2014

I gain no schadenfreude from your inability to understand what it is that I'm saying. It's actually extremely frustrating.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
71. Well when you learn communication skills
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 03:52 AM
Feb 2014

it's possible people will know what you are talking about. Right now, you make no sense.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
74. Name a part of what I'm saying that doesn't make sense and I'll reexplain it for you.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:05 AM
Feb 2014

Just pick a post and I'll try my best to explain it more plainly and to the point.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
78. I'm being serious. You said I've said things that don't make sense. Point them out...
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:21 AM
Feb 2014

And I'll try my best to restate them in a fashion that can be better understood.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
81. Okay. Why do you and your lady friends in those forums I can't post in
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:25 AM
Feb 2014

hate your fellow women who use their sexuality to earn a living?

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
92. No one hates the women. Can you link to a post that actually says that?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:04 AM
Feb 2014

It's not about the women, it's about society and the men who objectify women.

If you really want answers and to understand this issue better read these entire threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024522226

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024528423

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125538236

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024548058

Response to Cleita (Reply #75)

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
94. I know a lot about women's issues,
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:08 AM
Feb 2014

I'm 74 years old, lived through a lot, and you benefit a lot from what we opened out for you. But frankly I don't think a whole lot of you are women. I know a lot of women, always have and none think like y'all. I'm really just asking. Prove me wrong.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
96. Well you don't know how to not be presumptuous.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:14 AM
Feb 2014

You don't have a clue how old I am. For all you know I'm 92.

What do you want me to prove? That I'm a woman? What do you want me to do, post a selfie of my tits while holding a newspaper with today's date on it and a word you tell me to write to prove it's me?

Jesus. You've lost it.

And guess what. I know a lot of women that think exactly like this. And I learned how to think like this over 30 years ago. I don't care how old you are, you absolutely do not understand the issue of objectification. You make it very clear in your posts.

And knowing that so many on here, both women and men, think sexism is a big issue in society and that misogyny is running unchecked here on DU, why is it so important to you to argue against it, to try to make people believe it doesn't exist? Why? It's very curious. Do you do that with racism and homophobia as well or is it just sexism?

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
100. It's always us hating women,
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:37 AM
Feb 2014

but insinuate that a female poster is mentally ill for describing the harassment she and others have experienced, ("I think you people are sick...Really, what sick world do you live in?&quot and telling her that her only purpose is to be mean when said female poster explains why she objects to the posting of the SI SI cover, not to mention saying that harassment is only a problem because the victims "allow it to happen"... that isn't hating women? Apparently, the poster to whom you're replying doesn't think so.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
102. I hope she answers my question of why she so adamantly argues that there is no objectification.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:43 AM
Feb 2014

But I'm not holding my breath.

Would really like to know why it's so important to her to discredit something that is a known societal problem.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
104. It's the well-known republican attitude of "I've got mine, FU"
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 06:50 AM
Feb 2014

Apparently having experienced harassment and sexism, now that that isn't a personal problem, who wants to care about those who experience it today?

R B Garr

(16,993 posts)
176. +1
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:38 PM
Feb 2014

The man-hater meme seems to be out in full force, as well, and not only with this poster. That's always telltale.

Not meaning to sound like a broken record, but a lot of this engaging looks like a way to get posts hidden by trying to tease out conversation that turns personal. It's already happened several times in this thread alone.

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
110. And furthermore, can I help it if I am 5'11" and slender?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 08:45 AM
Feb 2014

What, I should start eating and stop exercising so I can, at the very least, gain weight to fit your desirable parameters? Because you know that I cannot change my height, right?

I went through many years of taunting about my height. Now, at 47, I embrace it. because this is what most females perceive to be beautiful not men Says who? Guys love it....not that it matters to me (well, okay, I like some of the attention). I prefer men to enjoy my personality.

Just this morning, in a convenience store, a guy said "excuse me, basketball player, would you like to step ahead of me in line"? Really???? 20 years ago, it would have irked me. Today I just smiled.

Yeah, this OP pisses me off to no end.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
80. Have you seen what happens even on DU when women "step up to the plate"?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:24 AM
Feb 2014

They are stepping up to the plate, and catching hell for it. Time for the rest of us to pull our weight, too.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
88. Women can't change the entire fashion industry by not buying all that clothing.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 05:50 AM
Feb 2014

What would be left to buy?

The industry is run by men. Women didn't necessarily decide that is the ideal woman, if they did please provide a citation.

Do Women Really Run the Fashion Industry? Yes and No.
By Cherise Luter Tue., Dec. 31 2013 at 10:00 AM
Categories: Fashion, Style/Fashion

When people think about the fashion industry and the individuals at the helm, most immediately imagine veterans like Anna Wintour, Diana Vreeland or Coco Chanel. No one ever thinks of names like Frank A Bennack Jr head of Hearst Corp. parent company of Elle Magazine or Michael J. Dolan head of IMG the producer of Mercedes Benz Fashion Week. While women continue to be the face of or the creative behind major brands, men are still holding the purse strings and, in some cases, puppet strings.

Much like other major industries, the number of prominent women in fashion seem to fall off at executive level and those serving in a lead executive capacity as CEOs or presidents are few and far between. Of the 94 names included in Business of Fashion's popular Top 500 List in the Executive Category, only 15 are women, which a stark contrast to the more creative categories of editors and designers. If one does a little bit of digging, you will find male heads behind some of the most iconic female lead brands.

Charles Townsend is the head of a little media group called Condé Nast. As such, he oversees the publishing of women's magazines Allure, Lucky, Vanity Fair, WWD and, of course, Vogue. All of which have a female editor-in-chief and majority female editorial team. This guy is Anna Wintour's boss.

As the chairman & CEO of LVMH Moët Hennessy Louis Vuitton (LVMH), Bernard Arnault is responsible for the global expansion of Céline famously headed by Phoebe Philo since 2010 and Donna Karan International. The LVMH portfolio also includes over 15 other accessories and beauty brands, including Sephora.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/artattack/2013/12/do_women_really_run_the_fashio.php

Dorian Gray

(13,503 posts)
108. I have
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 08:00 AM
Feb 2014

for the most part, stayed away from the supermodel/SI brouhaha. I find it pedantic and annoying. And I don't give a shit whether sexy models are on the cover of a magazine, to be honest. I thought that the outrage over it was over the top and annoying.

HOWEVER, so is the response. Being lectured on what we have to do to stop objectification... unasked for? WTF?

You are just looking for a highly trafficked OP at this point, aren't you? A flamefest, continuing the same arguments for no sake other than continuing the same argument?

I like clothing and will buy what I want to buy. And if it's any indication, Lena Dunham was the cover of the last Vogue. That's primarily sold to women. Who was on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Bikini edition, primarily sold to men????

So perhaps you might want to stop the lecture about objectification. ::Eyeroll::

treestar

(82,383 posts)
119. there already is a use of normal sized models
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:01 AM
Feb 2014

they call the plus sized but at least they use them

that's one thing that's never made sense - how do you know how clothes will look on you and thus be inspired to buy them as likely to make you look good, if you only see them on unusual sized people?

JustAnotherGen

(31,924 posts)
120. I would never be able
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:20 AM
Feb 2014

to buy clothing again.

And *sigh* the men of DU are not who I discuss fashion with.

As well - the "I'm not into self adornment" women at DU who look down on folks who would never buy a bag at Target (and the woman who wouldn't is sooooo me and she rocks !) - are not women who need to lecture me on where I should be looking for swimsuits.


And I'll stop buying $400 handbags and $1200 dollar Ralph Lauren black label dresses when the techie types at DU commit to never buying laptop, iphone, tablet, etc. etc. ever again in order to reduce slave labor in China. That's not gonna happen!

alp227

(32,064 posts)
135. So the burden is always on the discrimination TARGETS not the perpetrators?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 01:47 PM
Feb 2014

So should black and Latino people stand up for themselves instead of the right wing media that incites bigotry against them day after day? Muslims stand up for themselves against the Islamophobia industry? What a shitty thread. I wish DU was more politically correct at times.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
138. I don't blame women for this one.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:12 PM
Feb 2014

I blame the fucking fashion designers. Many of whom are men. They want women with the "Dachau look", so their clothes "hang correctly."

I blame the model scouts, too. Women and men. Watch this excerpt from ABC. These poor teenage girls who are candidate models are so skinny, I could practically put both hands around their waist. And they were still having weigh-ins and measurements.

A Not So Glamorous Model Life

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/glamorous-model-life-young-aspiring-models-severe-pressures-teens-women-nightline-14524006

Dirty Socialist

(3,252 posts)
141. A Lot of Women Objectify Men
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:51 PM
Feb 2014

By judging prospective husbands by how much money they make. Sorry, but that's the truth.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
151. This sound bad, if you insert another group and another problem it shuts that thing right down.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 05:21 PM
Feb 2014

Let's try it.

Black people need to step up to the plate if they want to end white racism.

Hispanics need to step up to the plate to end immigration discrimination.


Poor people need to step up to the plate to end income inequality.


Women need to step up to the plate to end rape.


Soldiers need to step up to the plate to end veteran homelessness.



The onus is not on the victims of objectification to end it, we should speak out about it at all times.
The objectifiers need to stop objectifying most of all.

Just like rapists need to stop raping.
Just like society needs to work on veterans issues.
Just like some people need to stop being racist.
Just like rich people should stop screwing the poor.
Just like how we all, everyone, needs to support immigration.

Telling us women that we need to do the bulk of the work is just punting,in my opinion.
It's your (men's) turn to do something for women without us having to march around with signs and get arrested and shit. Just f stop objectifying women or don't. But don't blame us for male objectification because some women participate in it. It's like a form of Stockholm syndrome for some, we are stuck in this male centered world and have to navigate it as best as we can.




Now, since y'all are the ones doing most of the objectifying, wouldn't it be better if WE assisted Y'ALL in stopping the objectification??
Yes. It would.


You're welcome for my assistance in helping you stop the objectification of women. I'm am fully ready to assist you in this matter at any time.

Be advised: you were talking to us women like we are a bunch of children and mansplaining that we are our own problem. You needed correction.



Have a great day, dear!!

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
166. What about men who insult me, an adult female, to my face?
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 07:53 PM
Feb 2014

And literally act like they can't hear what I say???

I've heard those insults since I was a little kid. Implying that I must be "abnormal" (meaning: too smart to be normal) or stupid, or that I must not know something, which I did know.

Career advice like: Don't go into architecture, because you're a girl. Girls have trouble in architecture. Said by a licensed architect to me in the 1970s.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
175. Girls can't do math, is the reason I'm just finding out at 32 years old, that i CAN do math.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:13 PM
Feb 2014

It's not as hard as they made it out to be.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
177. There are lots of really shitty math teachers.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:18 AM
Feb 2014

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:57 AM - Edit history (1)

I had a bad one in high school that didn't explain things and messed me up.

My discouragements as a female from blatantly sexist statements, remind me of this guy and racist bullshit he's heard.

Read about Neil deGrasse Tyson's troubles. The man has a Ph.D. in Astrophysics from Columbia University:

At age 11 he went to talk to a teacher at P.S. 81 (NYC). The teacher asked, "Why do you want to go into science? There aren't any Negroes in that field. Why don't you go into sports?'"

Tyson was on the Harvard wrestling team as an undergraduate. He often tells the story of another African-American member of the Harvard wrestling team, Frederick T. Smith--an eventual Rhodes scholar, who intended to put his economics degree to use among impoverished communities--criticized him for devoting himself to science.

"Blacks in America do not have the luxury of your intellectual talents being spent on astrophysics," he told Tyson.

(Smith, who became an attorney in Newark, died in 2005.)

"Never before had someone so casually, yet so succinctly, indicted my life's ambitions," Tyson later wrote.



The above has been quoted from a profile in the Feb.17 & 24, 2014 New Yorker profile of Dr. Tyson called "STAR MAN".
===========

My point is not to say that sexism is worse than racism, or that racism is worse than sexism. My point is: We all have external characteristics that will make some people prejudge us negatively. And oftentimes, tell us about how and why we're inferior, in their opinion.

My opinion of people who think I'm stupid or inferior because I'm short or female or whatever: They can go to hell. Their own personal hell, that they make up with their anger they live on every day as fuel.




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