The impeachment process may have been driven by protests, but it still is the means by which the government was changed.

The parliament didn't have to vote to impeach Yanukovych when he left.

Whether he left because he felt his life was in danger or he left to make a state visit, if the legislature voted to impeach him in his absence, he is gone.

Yanukovych was impeached.

of course, some insist on paying their VAT charges in Swirlies.

He's gone, and soon forgotten!

First I've seen it, and boy does it fit!

Many were afraid for their families, and others could not attend because they could have been killed just walking to parliament.

As I have said, I would like to see the Ukraine get into the EU. That will be a better life for them.

Parry is right and knows a whole lot more about the situation and what ACTUALLY occurred there than any of those I have seen who kneejerk support every violent coup d'etat mostly backed by Right Wing elements which it appears the rest of the world knows.

Something very strange has been happening to our party and it's time to figure out just why there are now people in this party who are supporting the very same policies Bush and his gang of war criminals supported, when the very purpose of throwing out Republicans was to STOP all of this.

You need to learn what actually happened in Ukraine and WHO is claiming to be the government there now. And it might interest you to know that the 'protesters' have declared that they will throw out this 'government' if 'we don't get what we want'. Maybe we should be more cautious about jumping into a situation that is in no way settled. Why we would even be considering it, is another huge question.

Google btw? Ever had a battle of 'hits' with a bunch of Freepers? Surely you're not forming opinions based on internet trickery?

Do you dispute the vote happened?

Which of the countries saying Russia is in the wrong here are bad/evil for doing so? Canada? France? Germany? All?

Is the UN evil for asking Russia to stop its invasion of Ukraine? Is the EU bad for asking the same?

Is it internet trickery that these countries and organizations are doing so and that they recognize the new government?

and attacked their country? Why didn't Crimea ask the US for help?

You mean the EU supports the coup? Of course they do. And the IMF and the World Bank too. And are you saying there are a million countries in the world, and that people cannot 'hit' google more than once? You cited a Google poll. The EU intends to do to Ukraine what they did to Greece and to third world countries, and are now doing to once first world countries like Ireland and Spain among others. Of course the major powers there who are controlling the Austerity policies which have IMPOVERISHED once sovereign nations, support the coup.

Maybe you don't understand what has been going on in Europe. But then who could if all the news they get is from our Corporate Media and the EU ruling class.

Neither can Crimea.

There are always reasons and excuses to justify an unprovoked war of aggression. Just ask George W. Bush.

Won't you even let them be three fifths of a person? There's historical precedent there.

I mean, is there any better way to get informed? I highly doubt it...

I've been amazed at Putin's stupendous propaganda machine that has been churning out smears against the popular revolt against his stooge in Kiev since around the time it started. The Neo-Nazi meme has been entrenched for some time now thanks to RT and the willing doe-eyed DU'ers who link it.

You should be more concerned about the way anti-democratic regimes like China try to interfere
With elections in HK and Taiwan and slowly ratchets up authoritarian policies (HK being a prime example). This is the same trick that was being pulled by Putin and Yanakovich with the advancing reduction of freedoms and outright rejection of the people's popular will regarding membership in the EU.

as it is THEIR business, not ours. You should be more concerned about the DICTATORS we are supporting as a nation, like Karamov eg, with our tax dollars. And the government of Uganda whose policies on Gays, do you know what that law they passed does? It makes being a crime, with the possibility of Life in prison? They stopped short at the Death Penalty. How about we turn our attention to places where we are funding these thugs, and maybe start thinking about WHO we should be supporting.

Have we stopped funding and supporting Uganda yet?

How about our support for Saudi Arabia, one of our closest allies? And we claim to support women and gays? And to be concerned about DEMOCRACY??

What makes you think I was ever in favor of China or our close 'business' alliances with them? If you knew ANYTHING about me you would have known that your little attempted 'gotcha' there re China was aimed at the wrong person. I don't support Communist regimes that oppress their people and kill protesters in the public square. And totally opposed to our 'business' alliances with them.

Let's clean up our own associations and our own mess right here regarding our own democracy, before we lecture the rest of the world.

I am consistent in my views of our foreign policies, perhaps you should know something about someone before you engage in what appears to be our national passtime, lecturing everyone else.

lies in your now hidden post because others might not know they were lies regarding what I have said in the past, all of which is easily accessible here on DU btw.

To those reading, every word in that now hidden comment about me by this poster, is a lie. I would ask him/her to link to something to prove those false statements but I know s/he cannot.

To be clear I do not have relatives in Russia, and have never claimed such a thing. However I do have relatives and friends in other parts of Europe.

We have really sunk to a new low here when in order to defend their position, they are resorting to outright lies about long time DUers.

Anyhow, thanks to those who recognized the lies, just wanted to make it clear to everyone else that they were lies. I take my integrity and truthfulness very seriously and will always correct lies told about me or anyone else who comes under such an attack.

The 'left' punditocracy (not you personally Sabrina), and Parry is only slightly better than the rest, could at least try to be consistent.

Wall St corruption, and armed, violent coups intended to topple governments?

Yeah, consistency. I mean the same people who opposed OWS and had zero to say about the brutality they were the victims of at the hands of government agencies, the thousands of arrests, the near killing of veterans, other than, 'that is what you should expect when you exercise your Constitutional rights here in this democracy', now SUPPORT violent overthrows of demacracies and Right Wing agitators who appear to be behind all of them lately.

I am for the Democratic Process and against Violent Right Wing coups. I oppose almost all Right Wing policies such as war mongering for the sake of it etc.

Parry is a journalist, neither left nor right, although I can see where people here might not be blamed if they have come to view those who report FACTS rather the daily propaganda they have become accustomed to from the Corporate Media, as somehow different in need of some label to explain it. It's been a long time since Americans had real news especially when it comes to Foreign affairs.

You never have to put words in my mouth, I am more than capable of stating where I stand on issues and have been very consistent regarding US foreign policy for over a dozen years now.

See Libya. And somehow color revolutions always seem to trouble socialist tyrants and Democratic governors, mayors and presidents. Go figure.

as an example of democracy?? We got control of their oil, true, but the murders and rapes, the brutality that has continued towards civilians there, the calls from Human Rights orgs to try to stop it, have gone pretty much unheard once the real mission was accomplished.

Thanks for reminding me, not that I stopped following the aftermath of our intervention, something we tend to do once we get what we want, the population be damned.

Speaking of 'color revolutions'. Know what happened after the Orange Revolution? We seem to move on very quickly from what we claim to be our humanitarian interest in all these places which are instantly forgotten as soon as our corporate media finds another 'drama', as one Russian Gay Activist called the Corporate Media who interviewed him but really didn't want to hear what he had to say.

The Orange Revolution seemed to trouble the leaders of the Revolution more than anyone else in the end.

War otoh appeals to Right Wingers, see McCain who never misses an opportunity, along with his brilliant VP choice, to promote invasions anywhere there seems to be controversy.

You agree with McCain? Your comment was fuzzy so forgive me if I can't tell where you stand.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I am just surprised to see some of the names doing so now.

but I think he gives too little attention to the reality of Yanukovch stealing TENS OF BILLIONS (estimates run to over 70 billion) in aid money and from his shakedown of the oligarchs. The democratic process is one that should certainly always be respected and considered on a fundamental basis, but I will admit that it is very hard to do that with a character like Yanukovych. I completely agree with Parry in regard to right wing NGO's like NED. Orgs like NED are merely the extensions of western oligarchs. They have corrupted the process of democracy no less than any of the oligarchs in the Ukraine. In short, one could easily and persuasively argue that what we are seeing in the Ukraine is merely a fight between oligarchs. It should be pointed out that the folks that are now in positions of power in the Ukraine are simply the upper crust fighting to get what Yanukovych had. They want the opportunity to steal oceans of money like Yanukovych and his family did. The reality of it all seems in my opinion to be criminals fighting to see if who will be the mafia don of this part of the world.

The shame of this all was that we lost an incredible opportunity by choosing to back things in this manner. Because the entire country was ready for change, including most of those in the East and South.

--deal. When he decided that Russia was offering a better deal, all of a sudden his corruption became an issue. And why is anyone silly enough to believe that the opposition isn't equally corrupt?

government. The way to change that was to take Yanukovich's offer to have an early election, the original election would have been next year, and settle the issue through the Democratic process. Coup d'etats rarely work out well in any country, and we should not be cheering for them here while claiming to support democracy. Regardless, they need to work out their own problems, it is none of our business. We can't work out our own problems right now.

It is our problem to stand up for human rights. You shouldn't be on DU advocating against such a thing. We have the right to care about other people in other countries. I don't think it HAS to be by force, but we DO have to speak up when injustice happens in the US or in other places around the world.

Again, I am going to be on your back every single FUCKING time you advocate against speaking out about such matters.

Human Rights? Would you like me to post some pictures of our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and our drone killings in several countries of innocent civilians? Would you like the names of some of the beautiful, innocent children we have blown to bits? There are so many.

Or would you like to see some photos from Abu Ghraib, some witness testimony from some of our other torture chambers, the women who were and ARE being raped, both in our own military and from the populations we have invaded?

I will post the facts about our horrendous human rights abuses regardless of YOUR threats or anyone else's.

Until this country holds the war criminals and torturers and corrupt war profiteers, and liars like Cheney and Bush, held accountable we have zero moral authority to be the spokespersons for Human Rights abuses. That job should go to countries that have a record of respecting Human Rights, some of the Scandinavian states perhaps, but this country with its so recent history of horrendous human abuses, is not in a position to do so anymore, one of the sad side effects of allowing war mongering criminals to escape consequeneces.

Do not threaten me, it is against the rules here and I find it creepy and disturbing. I don't know you and from my short introduction to you, I would prefer to keep it that way.

Chavez was said to have stolen billions, and it turned out to be nothing. It was a whisper campaign designed to stem feelings of solidarity at a critical time.

BTW, even if Yanukovich did steal, I find the 70 billion figure to be utterly ridiculous for a country like Ukraine. Good luck firming that one up.

Robert Parry (and all of us here) need to at least get our facts straight. And this is the most balanced, informative article I've read to counter this kind of propagandistic telling of what has been going on:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

First crowd always ready to jump up defending Putie.

'Blame America First' one here. A Freeper favorite when we used to oppose Bush's 'interventions' in foreign countries. I remember it well ... 'you Dems love Saddam and can't wait to 'blame America first'.

Thanks for the flashback ....

Many comments completely satisfy his definition of a negative nationalist in terms of expressed viewpoints on the US.

Particularly the fact that many folks who complained about a war of aggression when the US invaded Iraq are now happy with a war of aggression when Russia invaded the Ukraine.

I was against both. Are you?

other than from rabid right wing Bush supporters. It is worth noting that now on DU, Progressive Dems whose policies have not changed one bit since we threw Republicans out after we spent eight years opposing Right Wing Interventionist policies, can expect to be meet with the exact reaction on this Democratic Forum.

First time ever that I have seen that vile accusation aimed at Democrats on a democratic forum.

Btw, since I did not know you during the Bush years, did you agree that Dems almost all of whom opposed Bush's interventions, were 'hate America First Saddam lovers'? If so, then that would explain quite a bit.

believe it?

are introduced here aimed at Democrats. I have a lot of experience with this having spent several years battling with Right Wingers in defense of Democrats. I recognize every one of their stupid, ignorant, right wing think tank produced talking points 'for Dems'. The Third Way paid for a few also, very similar, but a little more subtle.

I despise Right Wingers, I despise their policies and most of all I despise their practice of resorting to insults, or changing the subject when they cannot defend themselves or their policies.

So, once again, did you always view Democrats as 'hate America firsters'? That is what you and your friend just called Democrats here, so I'm curious, was this always your view of Democrats? I think we all need to know what is going on in this Party and some disturbing things have been going on on this forum lately, causing many Democrats to reconsider their membership here. If I want to see Dems being slammed with right wing talking points I know where to go. This was not the place I came to see that.

You used Guilt by Association rather than refuting the point.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html

p.s., I am noting that you think in this situation that being anti-war is right wing. Very interesting.

simple for you.

You endorsed the well know right wing insult aimed at Democrats during the Bush era when they opposed the Iraq War. The phrase is 'Blame America First' which was intended to paint Democrats as unpatriotic. I asked if you had always viewed Democrats as 'Blame America Firsters'? It's not a difficult question, clearly you do now, as you said so. But was this always your opinion of Democrats?

Right Wingers are WAR MONGERS. Is that clear enough for you?

Putin is not a Right Winger, but he does blame America for all evil. His evil is not right wing, so he is right but a man of the people. The US/CIA is always wrong, so Putin is right...but not wing. See? Freepers breathe but do not swim...therefore Putin is right to attack the fascists in Ukraine. Because they do not breathe like the right wingers in facist freeperville, but with gills. The rain in Spain falls mainly on the Ukraine....

You guys are over doing it...Putin'ssockies

the point I am making.

Are you a friend of the person to whom I was responding btw?

You're new, I hope you enjoy DU and once again, thank you so much for acting as a perfect example of my point.

not friend of Leser.

not "perfect example of your point"...whatever that was.

I was making fun of your LACK of point....get it?

Whatever you were TRYING to do I have no idea, but you were just perfect! Thank you again!

unlikely many people would click it with your editorial, false, stalkish, which I have requested over and over again you refrain from doing, and twisted in terms of what they OP was about, editorializing intended to create a false impression. It is disgusting.

Here is the link http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002630817 and I would very much like people to go to it for several reasons. As a reminder of the success of OWS worldwide, and as an example of the lengths a few people will go to to create false impressions of Progressive Democrats here. In fact I believe it is very important that people click that link.

Your harassment of me is out of bounds, for the 5th time now, since you requested I not respond to you, you have done so.

And your hypocrisy knows no bounds, here is a subthread where you invoked me, without responding to me directly, "using third party tactics to post false claims about me": http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1108&pid=26024

I can easily find dozens of these instances, where you snidely respond in a thread where I am having a discussion, invoking Libya, and wandering off to whence you came.

I did not respond there to your vile, hateful, nasty falsehoods there.

I did not once respond to you.

Please remove the fascist United Russia Putin cheerleading pictures from your May Day thread. They are unbecoming of May Day protests.

I refuse to allow people to post disinfo on these forums.

me. I have asked you, over and over again to STOP following me around DU and to stop your nasty attacks and obession, I find it extremely disturbing.

Thank you to those who have confirmed my concerns.

You are making it necessary for me to respond to you once again. Do not address me, do not lie about me, I have zero problem pretending YOU do not exist, but you insist on following me around, lying about me for some creepy reason I cannot understand.

You can end this obsession by simply using your ignore feature. I am asking you once again to do that.

I would love to know who would defend someone who would drop to these depths to 1) ask me not to respond to them when I never fucking do initially and 2) get angry when I reply to a thread that they are in, and insist that I say absolutely nothing, even as they, you know, defend a rich oligarch in Ukraine as some sort of anti-oligarch power.

Otherwise they can keep it to themselves.

I will not abide bullies who tell me I can't respond in threads they post in. I posted on topic and relevant information in this thread. You posted pictures of United Russia and presented them as left wing when they are decidedly fascist.

You have lied about other people here also. They will not address you. Most have you on ignore. They can read my frequent requests to you to stop harassing me.

A woman should not have to ask a man to STOP following her around, once should be ENOUGH. You have had posts hidden because of your nasty attacks.

Just STOP with this obsession, it is seriously creepy.

But if you LIE again, I will correct it AGAIN. I do NOT wish to have contact with you so STOP engaging me!

Here's more proof: http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3475789

I didn't respond to you there, did I? Nope, sure didn't. Your obsession with my discussions and Libya is obvious and transparent.

Here's another one: http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3531621

Oh it goes deep, and this is just on Libya: http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3528362

I will not comply with your demand to force me out of any thread you have posted in. That is bizarre and completely without merit.

I can easily find the posts where you have done this, pretended to be the victim after having continually referred to me in threads, all the while I ignored you. I have provided such evidence in this post and sub-thread.

I will, however, let you have the final word, since you so desperately need it.

those who are reading.

I do not engage this poster because of a long history of personal attacks, and deliberate distortions of my comments and issues. I rarely do this, have no one on ignore, but it became too disturbing to continue to engage and I asked him not to address me again after several years of tolerating things I should not have done.

He did honor that request, but then used another tactic, he attached comments ABOUT me, continuing the behavior but using third parties to post the same distortions and lies about my position on issues. That caused me to address him and request that he stop using this tactic as it made it necessary for me to once again have to correct the false statements he had a habit of making.

The ONLY reason I addressed him here is because he dug through DU to find a two year old OP of mine about OWS, and to distort it.

I have asked again that he refrain from doing this third party thing to get around my request.

I sincerely hope this is the last time I have to correct lies told to third parties as I find it very upsetting to have to do so.

Putin is invading his neighbor.

SADDAM was the guy who was invaded, by Bush.

Try, at least, to get your memes straight. If Putin is doing the same thing Bush did, he's an ASSHOLE. At least to most regular members of this board.

This isn't about Americans "blaming" anyone. It's about an asshole dictator invading his neighbors. I hope the international community can put some pressure on that jerk. If you think he's gonna stop with the Ukraine, I rather doubt it. He wants to put the old USSR gang back together, whether they like it, or not.

knowing what the subject is.

I'm still waiting for the answer to my question from the person who thinks we Dems are 'Blame America Firsters', unpatriotic iow.

Do you think that old Freeper attempt to paint Dems as unpatriotic should be used against Democrats right here on this forum? First time I ever saw it used here.

Maybe we should get some clarification as whether it is alright now to attack DU Democrats with old Freeper anti-Dem propaganda that they are unpatriotic? I have to say I never expected to be told here that Dems are unpatriotic.

You're out of your depth, here. You're using the "Limbaugh test" rather willy-nilly, too.

Here's the bottom line, let's strip away ALL the bullshit--if it was wrong for Bush to bigfoot his way into Iraq, it is just as wrong for Putin to bigfoot his way into Ukraine. It would be just as wrong for USA to bigfoot their way into Mexico or Canada.

This is not what sovereign nations do. The parsing and games-playing, and the support for Dictator Putin I've seen on this board, not just by newbie trolls straight outta the Kremlin, but by long-time DUers who should know better, is fricken mind blowing. And it doesn't MATTER what Oxychunky Limbaugh has to say about it, either. Why even be concerned about that nitwit's opinion? Why pull it into the discussion as if it should be considered, never mind controlling?

People should be screaming for international solidarity and vocal, world-wide condemnation against this gross incursion, not mealy-mouthing and saying (falsely) "Ewwww, they aren't soldiers going over the border.....ewwww, the 'Crimeans' inVITED them....ewwwwww, Pootie knows best, after all, they're 'close' to Moscow...." I mean, PLEASE. The Russian military is five times bigger, it's got way more equipment, and the Ukraine going up against them is like putting a toddler up against Tyson. And "The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming" isn't a cute movie this time around--it's serious business. At least Ban Ky Moon gets it....

Funny how Putin can't get anything by just asking, by using diplomatic channels, by making deals and playing the quid pro quo game. He's gotta be the big bully.

No one wants to play with him, because he's an asshole who doesn't keep his word.

Honduras or the myriad of other countries we have been 'intervening' in under Bush's policies that we have the 'right to view the entire world as a war zone' in order to 'keep us safe'.

Yes, let's cut away all the bs here. There is a strange and noticeable lack of consistency among a small contingency on the Left when it comes to the Bush Doctrine. And an even more remarkable adaptation of Right Wing/O'Reilly attacks on those of us here, Democrats, who have remained [b]consistent.

I want to know if it is okay now on DU to call Progressive Democrats the same names, 'unpatriotic, Blame America First etc that come STRAIGHT from Fox, Limbaugh et al. Not that just occurred in this thread. I asked a question and have yet to get a DIRECT answer, lots of obfuscating which isn't putting my mind at rest in terms of the flash back to those vile accusations from the Right Wing Noise Machine regarding Democrats. I and I can assure, many others here want to know if it has become okay to attack Progressive Dems here as it was on FR and other RW forums?

Please don't bother with lectures on other nations, this subthread was in response to Democrats being called 'Unpatriotic, Blame America Firsters'. If you don't wish to address the actual issue, then I will wait for a response from someone who does.

You bring up Limpballs, like he matters...and last I checked, he wasn't on the membership roster here.

The only people I see fanning the winds of war are trolls and disruptors, and we don't have to be on MIRT to know them. Just because people claim to be "on the left" doesn't mean they are.

Bush is no longer the POTUS. Since he left the stage, the focus has been on getting OUT of halfassed conflicts, not creating them, not jumping into them.

Am I the only one who noticed this, or have far too many here been asleep since JAN 09?

which goes back long before we EXISTED. So please explain why you think you have any right to even comment on what most people around the globe understand has huge historical background which we here in our bubble have no clue about whatsoever.

Interesting that you dismiss the wishes of the people of Crimea yet claim to be FOR 'what the people wan't.

Have there been any elections in Ukraine yet btw? The 'installed' government there, without input from a majority of the people in Ukraine, are making some pretty serious decisions on behalf of a people who have not had a chance to express THEIR opinions.

Maybe you should go study a little history of the region. It's interesting how knowing the history, casts a whole different light on the situation, than that presented by our very compromised Corporate Media.

Please explain what possible interest the US has in that situation.

It's not like you weren't around.

Start a new thread if you really want to talk about this.

He thinks (with some good reason) that YOU are a "Blame America Firsters", not the rest of us.

we Dems became more than accustomed to and rightfully dismissed, during the old Bush era.

Thanks in advance.

Btw, hint, America is NOT the Government, something those old Bushbots never understood, or chose not to.

I blame individuals who make decisions in our name, re TORTURE eg. Who do YOU blame?

...who drag out everything the CIA did during the Cold War as "proof" they MUST still be ding the EXACT same thing decades later.

Sound familiar?

And I don't need any links, thanks, everybody here has eyes.

If you've been around the site long enough, you will see it.

oppose their own country. Please point me in the direction of anyone who does that here. Opposing policies is not 'blaming AMERICA first' as Right Wingers like to say when they are supporting anti-Constitutional Policies of their own party. Opposing wrong policies is the duty of every patriotic citizens who loves their country. I never thought that would have to be explained here.

--with world-wide reach. Russia stopped being a (strictly regional) empire when the Soviet Union broke up, but naturally there are elements of their power structure that would like some of it back. Imperialism is evil, no matter who is doing it.

the adults handle this.

Agree or disagree? If I were to point out that a gun nut who shoots one person causes less harm than one who takes out 30 students and teachers, you would predictably say that I am cheering for gun nuts.

That's a good article and makes sense out of the tv and political talking points chaos.

Why do so many of the left believe and promote Russian spin?

This is an informed piece, but it's an opinion piece.

He downplays the role of protester violence, never mentions any dead cops.

And ya gotta love his light touch with the ultra-rights. Does he even realize he's echoing the remarks made about Mussolini?

"The radical alternative to Svoboda is Right Sector, a group of far-right organizations whose frankly admitted goal was not a European future but a national revolution against all foreign influences. In the long run, Right Sector is the group to watch. For the time being, its leaders have been very careful, in conversations with both Jews and Russians, to stress that their goal is political and not ethnic or racial. In the days after the revolution they have not caused violence or disorder. On the contrary, the subway runs in Kiev. The grotesque residences of Yanukovych are visited by tourists, but they are not looted. The main one is now being used as a base for archival research by investigative journalists.

wing thugs that appear to be present and driving the violence in the rash of coups we've seen lately. I guess they think they can 'sort it out later'. But it has not been sorted out, in Libya eg, where the 'protesters' violently murdered, raped and robbed and tortured ordinary civilians and are still threatening the lives of the people there.

It's harder to disarm them than it was to arm them.

I'm sure the people of Ukraine can work out their own problems. I hope they do so peacefully and without outside interference.

Parry is one of the best journalists we have left in this country. Great article from him as usual.

His Bloodlands is a must read as far as trying to nail down a different view of the regions atrocities.

The cops aren't his concern, it's the civilians he focuses on, and their motivations.

This is literally the first article I have read about Ukraine that didn't place the fascists and rightist elements at the top of the agency of the protesters, even as I read anarchists were joining in (mainly as a medical response team ala Food Not Bombs) but with trepidation and caution and no expectation that they'd get what they wanted.

I think it paints a good narrative, even as it ends predicting more polarization if the events that are happening now happen. That's been my view as well. The fascists will probably rise. And of course the US, not the rightful instigator Russia, will be blamed.

You prefer violence with distinct fascist elements because why?

They just close their eyes to it.

Brilliant logic there. What could possibly be wrong with an early election as opposed to a violent coup with fascist elements?

I knew not to expect a lot from the article. And he didn't deliver a lot.

I find Stephen F. Cohen much more enlightening, and much more informed.

Occupying government buildings by force, for example, shall now be a thing to celebrate.

And Snyder's claims "without any verified evidence" that Putin would put armed forces in Russia, sort of proven correct. Putin really is that transparent.

Given that Ukraine is yet again falling into despotism thanks to Russia's interference and meddling, I think I trust Snyder on this, particularly as he notes this is almost how things go down in that region of the world. Snyder got shit from right wing nationalists, too, while I highly doubt United Russia would criticize Cohen, especially as Cohen has the uninspired fetish of blaming US on the failures of Russia...

He's implying that peoples' disdain for the US (whether correct or incorrect) is instructing the left and right as to how to proceed with their analysis, as opposed to looking at the actual events as they transpired.

saving the link for the future!

More critical information on the shadow neocon policy arm ... funded by a taxpayer paid slush fund:
the blandly named National Endowment for Democracy.

Yet, the larger question for Americans may be whether NED and its slush fund have helped create not only shadow political structures in countries around the world but whether one now exists in the United States. Though NED has always justified its budget by focusing on what it will do in other countries, it spends much of its money in Washington D.C., funding NGOs that pay salaries of political operatives who, in turn, write American op-eds often from a neocon, interventionist perspective.

Indeed, it would be hard to comprehend why the American neocon power structure didn't capsize after the disastrous Iraq War without factoring in the financial ballast provided by NED and other neocon funding sources. That steady flow of NED funding, topping $100 million, gave the neocon movement the staying power that other foreign policy viewpoints lacked.
Cold War Relic

NED was founded in 1983 at the initiative of Cold War hardliners in the Reagan administration, including then-CIA Director William J. Casey. Essentially, NED took over what had been the domain of the CIA, i.e. funneling money to support foreign political movements that would take the U.S. side against the Soviet Union.

Though the Reagan administration's defenders insist that this "democracy" project didn't "report" to Casey, documents that have been declassified from the Reagan years show Casey as a principal instigator of this operation, which also sought to harness funding from right-wing billionaires and foundations to augment these activities.

right wing organizations were not defunded once Dems gained power. Seems Dems just accept their creations while they force US to destroy any created on the Left, like ACORN eg.

the Western interests in the Ukraine are trying to establish an economic front there? and although Yanukavych could be doing a better job playing them against old school Easterners, he actually is fighting against Oligarchs who want to hook up with the Western Europeans.

So is this a classic battle between the Western Corporatists against New Russian Economicists.?
And the fact that Yanukavych was fairly elected and now has been driven from power by Western
Europe Milton Friedman Types? If so, boy is most of America in the dark about this situation.

Always enjoy and learn from your input.. Where am I off?

The EU which has forced its Austerity policies on European countries expected Ukraine to become a member. Yanukovich appears to have changed his mind, after a better offer, he felt, from Russia. It appears that Ukrainians are split on whether to be part of the EU or to align economically with Russia. There's also the fact that there are accusations of corruption against Yanukovich, as there were against the previous president, who was a leader of the Orange Revolution.

If he had joined the EU however, regardless of the corruption allegations, I doubt these protests would have occurred. Lots of corruption in EU member states so it doesn't seem to be a problem so long as they play the game.

I think your second paragraph is a concise synopsis of the situation. The fact that the World Bank and the IMF rushed in to 'talk' to the 'new government', which is hardly stable considering protesters are stating they will 'topple that one also' if they don't get what they want, demonstrates how urgently the EU viewed the situation.

I have no idea what their economic situation might be if they had accepted Russia's offer, but we know what the situation is for other EU nations who have come under the thumb of the IMF and the World Bank and the EU's Austerity programs.

I do believe America is in the dark as always about these situations. I watched CNN this morning, after rarely watching it for a long time for any news coverage and was amazed at how similar it was to the Fox coverage of the Iraq War. Same format, the 'outraged military expert ex General', warning about 'consequences' should Putin 'invade' Ukraine. There was no information on the country itself, just the 'heroic protesters and the evil leader now gone, and the possible threat from our enemy, Russia,(commies) which 'we will not tolerate'.

It was pitiful.

So many times we see MSM take the easy way out.. Always Black and White... Good against Evil etc.
I think that what you and I discussed is too complicated of an issue for most of these writers to comprehend and of course their corporatists ties, seals the deal..

But in the long run its is always our dumbed down populace which allows this type of incompetent reporting to exist.. Seems Black against White is the only way our electorate understands issues..

Dude spent his time as President building luxurious estates. His son Oleksandr Yanukovych, a dentist, suddenly became a multimillionaire, his wealth estimated at $196 million.

I fail to see where this bizarre, insidious, "Yanukovych as a fighter of oligarchs" idea comes from. The dude stole from Ukraine and he and his son are criminal oligarchs.

Just like Putin. Anyone who is against the US government is a hero to some posters here.

The only reason for being against invading Iraq would be thinking that Saddam was a hero, right?

I don't remember many people praising Putin (or Saddam) back then.

Doesn't mean I was for the invasion.

Do they not understand that stealing and cooking the books means austerity?

Unless they default. Which would be difficult because unlike Iceland, they aren't energy independent.

Or did you not see that part?

Ukraine is fucked. There is no winning move.

Vitali Klitschko might even be able to be elected but if he touched the oligarchs with his "anti-corruption" measures I'm sure he'd be eating polonium.

edit: there is the Iceland / Argentina approach but I don't know if it would work, Ukraine's industry is heavily tied to Russia. A default would mean Russia cuts them off pretty much right away.