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fried eggs

(910 posts)
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 08:33 PM Mar 2014

Ukraine crisis for dummies?

I've been under a rock. Can somebody with no biases explain in the simplest way possible what the hell is going on? Also, the pros and cons of US involvement?

I've already googled it and the explanations are wildly different.

55 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Ukraine crisis for dummies? (Original Post) fried eggs Mar 2014 OP
Basically - Everyone disagrees. The U.S. wants intervention. Others say leave it alone. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #1
I am not sure the US wants intervention nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #2
This is quite interesting, from post #4. RKP5637 Mar 2014 #7
I have called all of this propaganda nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #9
It's like walking through a mine (mind) field blindfolded trying to follow this stuff! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2014 #11
I am thankful for that graduate course in Russian history nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #12
Definitely! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2014 #14
Not that I am going to bother posting it here nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #16
I do wonder if Putin is more concerned about the economic effects, or more about RKP5637 Mar 2014 #24
He has not made a secret about pining for the old USSR nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #31
What do you think of this? True or false or other? L0oniX Mar 2014 #21
I will PM you later with an answer nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #22
Can you PM me too, I'm always interested! Thanks! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2014 #29
Yup, the neocons definitely do want it. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #23
Very few know for sure, and they are not on DU 1000words Mar 2014 #3
Here is the best background I've read frazzled Mar 2014 #4
I found this quite interesting! Thanks for posting! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2014 #6
Thank you likesmountains 52 Mar 2014 #28
Thankyou so much, frazzled! Excellent. Whisp Mar 2014 #10
It's a refreshing read of what has occurred, so much more than it seems from MSM, RKP5637 Mar 2014 #19
Definitely the best piece I've read on the situation yet. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #25
Great stuff, thanks! nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #33
What do you think about Mark's comment? fried eggs Mar 2014 #38
I don't think he read the article frazzled Mar 2014 #47
Who is Mark and why should we care? Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #48
+ whatever flying rabbit Mar 2014 #39
replying to mark for later reading fizzgig Mar 2014 #49
I can try Scootaloo Mar 2014 #5
Russia is not getting 'sucked' into Ukraine. Jenoch Mar 2014 #17
If you like Scootaloo Mar 2014 #18
Interesting. thanks fried eggs Mar 2014 #36
Putin's intervention probably has increased the possibility for civil war. amandabeech Mar 2014 #40
NNothing new under the sun. The Crimea's geography makes it pivotal for millenia of turnover. libdem4life Mar 2014 #8
Okay... here's what happened. 1awake Mar 2014 #13
Yep! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2014 #32
Russia guaranteed the borders of Ukraine with Crimea in 1994 and 1997. amandabeech Mar 2014 #41
Not when it suits his needs to do otherwise, yes. 1awake Mar 2014 #43
The only items with which I disagree are your esimations of the numbers of Russians amandabeech Mar 2014 #44
I have no disagreement with what you said. 1awake Mar 2014 #45
Nice "talking" with a sane and knowledgeable person. amandabeech Mar 2014 #46
Same to you amandabeech! nt 1awake Mar 2014 #50
It's geography, man...nt SidDithers Mar 2014 #15
Ukraine Ethnic Purity Extremists threaten Russians, Jews, non-whites L0oniX Mar 2014 #20
Let me educate you. Adrahil Mar 2014 #26
Ah the middle... flying rabbit Mar 2014 #42
What's a Ukraine? Some type of bird? randome Mar 2014 #27
... RKP5637 Mar 2014 #34
Here's a timeline of events KeepItReal Mar 2014 #30
I like the timeline. Thanks fried eggs Mar 2014 #35
Excellent! Thanks! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2014 #37
That looks a very good neutral summary (nt) muriel_volestrangler Mar 2014 #52
I wish we could have a forum or something ... LisaLynne Mar 2014 #51
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #53
Euronews is French : Not UK. dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #54
Problem is, you ask for that, you'll get the dummy's perspective. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #55
 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
2. I am not sure the US wants intervention
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 08:35 PM
Mar 2014

the neocons want it, but if they did not I would have to change my watch batteries.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
9. I have called all of this propaganda
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 08:56 PM
Mar 2014
Insofar as we have accepted the presentation of the revolution as a fascist coup, we have delayed policies that might have stopped the killing earlier, and helped prepare the way for war. Insofar as we wish for peace and democracy, we are going to have to begin by getting the story right.


From your post, thanks for an interesting read.
 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
12. I am thankful for that graduate course in Russian history
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 09:01 PM
Mar 2014

while I do not know all the details... it is good enough for me to know there is more to this than CNN or RT tell me.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
16. Not that I am going to bother posting it here
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 09:14 PM
Mar 2014

but I have been checking all propaganda channels. At times going, confirmation? But as we sink into the crisis you can see the definitely edge towards preparation.

RKP5637

(67,111 posts)
24. I do wonder if Putin is more concerned about the economic effects, or more about
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 10:02 PM
Mar 2014

a win for power and control. My suspicions are this plays into a long term agenda to try to reassert a former USSR of sorts. ... it is interesting to look at this with respect to how he maneuvered himself into continuing power over Russia. IMO there's a awful lot going on here and Ukraine is a symptom.

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
21. What do you think of this? True or false or other?
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 09:36 PM
Mar 2014

Ukraine Ethnic Purity Extremists threaten Russians, Jews, non-whites

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1281474/-Ukraine-Ethnic-Purity-Extremists-Neo-Nazis-threaten-Russians-Jews-non-whites

I am curious because this makes it look like the US is about to give aid to extremists ...and that of course is the polite term for neo nazis ...I think. If this is indeed the case then we may have a lot of unknowing neo nazi supporters on DU. As far as I can gather these extremists do not accept any previous agreements with the US and EU. If the country was taken over by non elected people then doesn't both the US and Russia have a good reason to remove those extremists? ...and if that is so then why wouldn't the US and Russia work together on this? Maybe this is a matter of what info sources are read, believed or rejected and disproved. I know this ...I do not believe the corporate US media most of the time and I may believe Russian media some of the time. If both parties are using propaganda then what? Yes I know nothing is a simple as it may seem. I don't usually go into details with anyone on DU but I ask your opinion because you have proven to be honest and forthright.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
22. I will PM you later with an answer
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 09:47 PM
Mar 2014

I hold no public opinions here. Hell, deleted news items I posted.

 

1000words

(7,051 posts)
3. Very few know for sure, and they are not on DU
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 08:36 PM
Mar 2014

Seriously, go elsewhere if you want unbiased perspective.

RKP5637

(67,111 posts)
19. It's a refreshing read of what has occurred, so much more than it seems from MSM,
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 09:17 PM
Mar 2014

the latter of which to me at least seems more focused on theatrics

fried eggs

(910 posts)
38. What do you think about Mark's comment?
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 10:36 PM
Mar 2014

He commented on the article 2 days ago. I don't think I can post the entire comment, but the first four paragraphs say:


This is a classic example of Neo-Liberal propaganda.

If you don't think the protesters are right wing, then you clearly no absolutely nothing about the political landscape of the Ukraine. The opposition is made up fo 3 Parties - UDAR (Klitschko), Fatherland (Tymoshenko) and Svoboda (Oleh Tyahnybok).

"Fatherland" hardly sounds Liberal, does it? They are all conservative, right wing groups that have nothing in common with your ideas of liberalism. Svoboda is a Far Right group that has been issuing death threats against all the Jews of Kiev and of any left wing group. The house of the Communist Party leader has been burnt down; the general secretary was dragged out into the main square of Lvov and had needles put under his fingernails whilst being beaten by the crowd. The Nazi Militia "The Right Sector" has made a pact with the current interim Government, acting as an enforcer throughout the West of Ukraine. This party has been growing in support as UDAR has being losing it.

Accusing Yanukych of having a rich father is the most astonishing hypocrisy I've seen, when Tymoshenko is one of the world's richest oil barons and has masses of wealth and power.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
47. I don't think he read the article
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 01:11 AM
Mar 2014

It's not about what anyone "thinks" about the protesters, it's about the facts on the ground, which were described in some detail in the article. The protests were started by:

a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist. A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine.


This group got beaten up, so more were added

When riot police were sent to beat the students, who came to defend them? More “Afghans,” but “Afghans” of a very different sort: Ukrainian veterans of the Soviet Red Army, men who had been sent to invade Afghanistan during after the Soviet invasion of that country in 1979. These men came to defend “their children,” as they called the students. But they were also defending a protest initiated by a man born in Kabul at the very time they were fighting their way toward it.


Then the real decadent Western influences got in the game, along with millions of others:

As the New Year began the protests broadened. Muslims from southern Ukraine marched in large numbers. Representatives of the large Kiev Jewish community were prominently represented. Some of the most important organizers were Jews. The telephone hotline that people called to seek missing relatives was established by gay activists (people who have experience with hotlines). Some of the hospital guards who tried to stop the police from abducting the wounded were young feminists.


And yes, he specifically says the right played a part as well in the demonstrations, but a specific part that is not well understood:

The Ukrainian far right did play an important part in the revolution. What it did, in going to the barricades, was to liberate itself from the regime of which it had been one of the bulwarks. One of the moral atrocities of the Yanukovych regime was to crush opposition from the center-right, and support opposition from the far right. By imprisoning his major opponents from the legal political parties, most famously Yulia Tymoshenko, Yanukovych was able to make of democracy a game in which he and the far right were the only players.


In the meantime:

The transitional authorities were not from the right, or even from the western part of Ukraine, where nationalism is more widespread. The speaker of the parliament and the acting president is a Baptist preacher from southeastern Ukraine. All of the power ministries, where of course any coup-plotter would plant his own people, were led by professionals and Russian speakers. The acting minister of internal affairs was half Armenian and half Russian. The acting minister of defense was of Roma origin.


But no, this author did not in any way accuse "Yanukovych of having a rich father." He said Yanukovich stole money from the state and apparently enriched his dentist son with it, and built for himself a bunch of houses and what we now know to be a ridiculous estate complete with zoo and galleon and other ridiculous elements:

The country, Ukraine, was in effect an oligarchy, where much of the wealth was in the hands of people who could fit in one elevator. But even this sort of pluralism, the presence of more than one very rich person, was too much for the leader, Viktor Yanukovych. He wanted to be not only the president but the oligarch-in-chief. His son, a dentist, was suddenly one of the wealthiest men in Europe. Tens of billions of dollars simply disappeared from the state budget. Yanukovych built for himself a series of extravagant homes, perhaps the ugliest in architectural history.


What Mark, whom I don't know, didn't get from this is that this is not about good guys and bad guys, or black and white. Every government in this region is prone to corruption (left, right, or center), and every insurgency of this magnitude consists of a wide cast of characters, some of whom we might not like much, others who with whom we would find solidarity. This is not a simple situation: they never are. But certainly Yanukovych was not the sort of guy we want to throw our weight behind when his people rise up: it frankly, was more of interest to Europe than to us.

We're not here to "pick sides." Nor are we here to "think" (read: believe) things about the situation. We need to learn all of the facts, and realize that there are--as in Syria and so many other places these past few years--no really good players. But there are the people, who have apparently had enough. And those people were diverse and they were viciously attacked by the government:

Who was killed? Dozens of people, in all about a hundred, most of them young men. Bohdan Solchanyk was a young lecturer at the Ukrainian Catholic University, a Ukrainian speaker from western Ukraine. He was shot and killed. Yevhen Kotlyov was an environmentalist from Kharkiv, a Russian speaker from eastern Ukraine. He was shot and killed. One of the people killed was a Russian citizen; a number of Russians had come to fight—most of them anarchists who had come to aid their Ukrainian anarchist comrades. At least two of those killed by the regime, and perhaps more, were Jews. One of those “Afghans,” Ukrainian veterans of the Red Army’s war in Afghanistan, was Jewish: Alexander Scherbatyuk. He was shot and killed by a sniper. Another of those killed was a Pole, a member of Ukraine’s Polish minority.

Has it ever before happened that people associated with Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian, Armenian, Polish, and Jewish culture have died in a revolution that was started by a Muslim? Can we who pride ourselves in our diversity and tolerance think of anything remotely similar in our own histories?


This is not just about right-wing groups, as the Russians would like us to believe. It's a messy geopolitical situation in a country long divided by conflicting allegiances.



 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
5. I can try
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 08:40 PM
Mar 2014

Ukraine's been in something of a political crisis for several months now.
This recently came to a head with violent confrontations between authorities and protestors in Kiev, which led to a week-long seiuge, and hte government agreeing to hold new elections at the end of the year.
The Ukranian PM is impeached, refuses to recognize the results and flees to Russia. A new government is convened.
Russia, perhaps backing its ally, perhaps following its own constitutional obligations, decides to activate its forces already in Crimea, obstinately to defend the ethnic Russians in the province. They appear to have hte backing of the Prime Minister of Crimea (whose status as prme minister of the autonomous republic may or may not matter.)

Frankly, it's Russia getting sucked into a Ukranian civil war. There's no "pros" to US involvement, except if you're part of the camp that still wants to bust some Russian chops to prove we've got hte biggest dicks in the international scene. The cons of getting involved in someone else's civil war are staggering enough, without having to worry about another very powerful state being involved on the other side.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
18. If you like
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 09:17 PM
Mar 2014

Point being, it's a mess and it'll be quicksand for Russia unless they change course very soon

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
40. Putin's intervention probably has increased the possibility for civil war.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 10:58 PM
Mar 2014

The new government in Kiev has set elections for May 25, not that far away.

A fair election often calms people down, as does three months of relative calm prior to it.

So far, the only shots fired were the ones that killed the protesters in Kiev.

If Putin instigates a civil war, there will be no election, but many people will die unnecessarily.

By the way, there were reports earlier today that said that Angela Merkel, after a conversation with Putin, thought that he wasn't operating in reality.

Someone with a big military operating in his own reality is a big problem, whether his name is Bush or Putin.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
8. NNothing new under the sun. The Crimea's geography makes it pivotal for millenia of turnover.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 08:54 PM
Mar 2014

Much like Constantinople/Istanbul...they are gateways...points of intense pressure for sea/marine/global/financial access. The Black Sea is wrought with ancient and current misadventures/wars. From the Roman Empire, Greek Civilization, Asian migration, the Balkans...all have met, fought, won and lost somewhere along the Black Sea.

It's Afghanistan and Iraq all over again, from our perspective.

1awake

(1,494 posts)
13. Okay... here's what happened.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 09:10 PM
Mar 2014

leader of Ukraine made it seem he was going to be more friendly with the EU, then did an about face out of the blue and signed deals with Russia. People got pissed. People rioted. The west started showing/voicing/collaborating support for the rioters. Think.. a hands off regime change. Then, the rioter's rioted long enough and won. The leader skipped town to Russia.

Then... The Crimea which belonged to Russia until 1954.. was not about to fall into anyone elses hands except for Russia. Russia gathered military forces, ripped off their uniform emblems, and sent them in the Crimea. Everyone knows its Russians, but they aren't talking. Naturally, the west is pissed the Russia did this, and has a fake military drill going on next to the border where over 150,000 more troops are swarming.

Obama said stop and get out... Putin flipped him off. The EU as usual cant make up their minds what to do, but they are sure they are very cross with Russia. China said.. meh.

Thats where we are at so far.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
41. Russia guaranteed the borders of Ukraine with Crimea in 1994 and 1997.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:01 PM
Mar 2014

Putin's Russia does not abide by treaties made by any other duly elected Russian government.

That is not a good thing.

1awake

(1,494 posts)
43. Not when it suits his needs to do otherwise, yes.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:23 PM
Mar 2014

But then neither do we. I'm not defending Putin. defending him is meaningless because the situation is what it is. He has invaded Crimea and has over 16,000 boots entrenched. Another 150,000 troops are a stones through away. They have Yankovich writing letters giving them access (regardless if its legit or not). Large portions of Ukraine are Russian. Large portions of those large portions WANT Russia there. The situation is complex.

Our best bet is economic and diplomatic actions. The Russian economy is stagnant right now. The main economic card Russia has is gas lines feeding many in the EU. Due to the warm winter, much of the EU has 10% of their annual need in reserves. That card will devastate Ukraine if applied and probably Germany the most next, which is why Merkel is so cautious with her words. An economic package needs to be planned with the US most likely loaning approx 1-2 billion. The EU and other countries will need to quadruple that for it to have any lasting effect. As I said... the situation is complex, and people should not confuse air waves politics with geo political aggressive situations like this. (dont mean you)

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
44. The only items with which I disagree are your esimations of the numbers of Russians
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:34 PM
Mar 2014

and the percentage of them who wish Russia to take over.

This issue was discussed in one of the NYT discussion threads today and yesterday.

Many people in Ukraine speak Russian rather than Ukrainian or any of the minor languages, but not all of them are ethnic Russians. According to the Times discussions and other things I've seen, only 17% of Ukrainian residents are ethnic Russians. The rest are Ukrainian, mixed, Tatar, Hungarian, Ruthenian, etc. Too many "experts" are equating Russian language ability or prior votes for Yanukovich as indicative of Russian ethnicity or a desire to be reunited with Russia.

As far as I know, there is no reliable recent poll of Ukrainian residents/citizens as to their political desires. I think that the best indicator would be a fair election in May as the interim government intends to hold. Absent a real poll or clean vote, I don't think that anyone can say what the people of Ukraine, eastern or otherwise want. And no vote with armed men walking around counts as valid in my book.

1awake

(1,494 posts)
45. I have no disagreement with what you said.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:39 PM
Mar 2014

Mine were spur of the moment; yours are more accurate. I was speaking of population areas more than numbers of Ukraine as a whole. Thanks for the incite, I always appreciate it.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
26. Let me educate you.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 10:07 PM
Mar 2014

There seem to be two extremes being discussed:

Extreme 1: Yanukovich, the righteous enemy of oligarchs and evil western bankers and corporatists, rejected the usurious EU and embraced the noble Russians, who just want to help. Neo-Nazis, fund and supported by the CIA, launched a coup and now control Ukraine. Noble Russia, always a champion for human rights, took in Yanukovich, the rightful ruler of Ukraine, and are now selflessly defending those under imminent threat from the neo-nazis.

Extreme 2: College Student protesters, yearning fro western european-style social democracy peacefully protested against Yanukovich, who betrayed them to Vladimir Putin, well known all-around bad guy. Yanukovich, seething evil, launched completely unprovoked attacked against the peaceful demonstrators, and the country turned against him, rising in righteous rebellion. He fled to Russia, well-known haven of traitors and scoundrels. It later turns out that Yanukovich had his entire house carpeted in Dalmatian puppy fur. Putin, infuriating by a humilating defeat, led Russian troops into Ukraine, riding a motorcyle powered by baby's blood, and showing off his bare chest.



The truth, no doubt, lies somewhere in the middle.

flying rabbit

(4,636 posts)
42. Ah the middle...
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:11 PM
Mar 2014

... does not foment enough teeth gnashing righteousness to be worthy of our attention, does it?

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
27. What's a Ukraine? Some type of bird?
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 10:08 PM
Mar 2014

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

LisaLynne

(14,554 posts)
51. I wish we could have a forum or something ...
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 08:33 AM
Mar 2014

where we collect actual facts about current events. Even some opinions as long as the person posting explains their biases or whatever. Wow, that would be awesome. It's really hard to get a good sense of reality on stuff that you may not know a lot about, you know?

Response to fried eggs (Original post)

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