General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUkraine crisis for dummies?
I've been under a rock. Can somebody with no biases explain in the simplest way possible what the hell is going on? Also, the pros and cons of US involvement?
I've already googled it and the explanations are wildly different.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)the neocons want it, but if they did not I would have to change my watch batteries.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)From your post, thanks for an interesting read.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)while I do not know all the details... it is good enough for me to know there is more to this than CNN or RT tell me.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but I have been checking all propaganda channels. At times going, confirmation? But as we sink into the crisis you can see the definitely edge towards preparation.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)a win for power and control. My suspicions are this plays into a long term agenda to try to reassert a former USSR of sorts. ... it is interesting to look at this with respect to how he maneuvered himself into continuing power over Russia. IMO there's a awful lot going on here and Ukraine is a symptom.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Ukraine Ethnic Purity Extremists threaten Russians, Jews, non-whites
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1281474/-Ukraine-Ethnic-Purity-Extremists-Neo-Nazis-threaten-Russians-Jews-non-whites
I am curious because this makes it look like the US is about to give aid to extremists ...and that of course is the polite term for neo nazis ...I think. If this is indeed the case then we may have a lot of unknowing neo nazi supporters on DU. As far as I can gather these extremists do not accept any previous agreements with the US and EU. If the country was taken over by non elected people then doesn't both the US and Russia have a good reason to remove those extremists? ...and if that is so then why wouldn't the US and Russia work together on this? Maybe this is a matter of what info sources are read, believed or rejected and disproved. I know this ...I do not believe the corporate US media most of the time and I may believe Russian media some of the time. If both parties are using propaganda then what? Yes I know nothing is a simple as it may seem. I don't usually go into details with anyone on DU but I ask your opinion because you have proven to be honest and forthright.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I hold no public opinions here. Hell, deleted news items I posted.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)1000words
(7,051 posts)Seriously, go elsewhere if you want unbiased perspective.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)From a history professor at Yale University, published in the New York Review of Books:
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)likesmountains 52
(4,098 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)still reading....
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)the latter of which to me at least seems more focused on theatrics
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,184 posts)Thanks!
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)fried eggs
(910 posts)He commented on the article 2 days ago. I don't think I can post the entire comment, but the first four paragraphs say:
This is a classic example of Neo-Liberal propaganda.
If you don't think the protesters are right wing, then you clearly no absolutely nothing about the political landscape of the Ukraine. The opposition is made up fo 3 Parties - UDAR (Klitschko), Fatherland (Tymoshenko) and Svoboda (Oleh Tyahnybok).
"Fatherland" hardly sounds Liberal, does it? They are all conservative, right wing groups that have nothing in common with your ideas of liberalism. Svoboda is a Far Right group that has been issuing death threats against all the Jews of Kiev and of any left wing group. The house of the Communist Party leader has been burnt down; the general secretary was dragged out into the main square of Lvov and had needles put under his fingernails whilst being beaten by the crowd. The Nazi Militia "The Right Sector" has made a pact with the current interim Government, acting as an enforcer throughout the West of Ukraine. This party has been growing in support as UDAR has being losing it.
Accusing Yanukych of having a rich father is the most astonishing hypocrisy I've seen, when Tymoshenko is one of the world's richest oil barons and has masses of wealth and power.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)It's not about what anyone "thinks" about the protesters, it's about the facts on the ground, which were described in some detail in the article. The protests were started by:
This group got beaten up, so more were added
Then the real decadent Western influences got in the game, along with millions of others:
And yes, he specifically says the right played a part as well in the demonstrations, but a specific part that is not well understood:
In the meantime:
But no, this author did not in any way accuse "Yanukovych of having a rich father." He said Yanukovich stole money from the state and apparently enriched his dentist son with it, and built for himself a bunch of houses and what we now know to be a ridiculous estate complete with zoo and galleon and other ridiculous elements:
What Mark, whom I don't know, didn't get from this is that this is not about good guys and bad guys, or black and white. Every government in this region is prone to corruption (left, right, or center), and every insurgency of this magnitude consists of a wide cast of characters, some of whom we might not like much, others who with whom we would find solidarity. This is not a simple situation: they never are. But certainly Yanukovych was not the sort of guy we want to throw our weight behind when his people rise up: it frankly, was more of interest to Europe than to us.
We're not here to "pick sides." Nor are we here to "think" (read: believe) things about the situation. We need to learn all of the facts, and realize that there are--as in Syria and so many other places these past few years--no really good players. But there are the people, who have apparently had enough. And those people were diverse and they were viciously attacked by the government:
Has it ever before happened that people associated with Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian, Armenian, Polish, and Jewish culture have died in a revolution that was started by a Muslim? Can we who pride ourselves in our diversity and tolerance think of anything remotely similar in our own histories?
This is not just about right-wing groups, as the Russians would like us to believe. It's a messy geopolitical situation in a country long divided by conflicting allegiances.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)flying rabbit
(4,636 posts)good post.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Ukraine's been in something of a political crisis for several months now.
This recently came to a head with violent confrontations between authorities and protestors in Kiev, which led to a week-long seiuge, and hte government agreeing to hold new elections at the end of the year.
The Ukranian PM is impeached, refuses to recognize the results and flees to Russia. A new government is convened.
Russia, perhaps backing its ally, perhaps following its own constitutional obligations, decides to activate its forces already in Crimea, obstinately to defend the ethnic Russians in the province. They appear to have hte backing of the Prime Minister of Crimea (whose status as prme minister of the autonomous republic may or may not matter.)
Frankly, it's Russia getting sucked into a Ukranian civil war. There's no "pros" to US involvement, except if you're part of the camp that still wants to bust some Russian chops to prove we've got hte biggest dicks in the international scene. The cons of getting involved in someone else's civil war are staggering enough, without having to worry about another very powerful state being involved on the other side.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Putin saw an opportunity and took it.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Point being, it's a mess and it'll be quicksand for Russia unless they change course very soon
fried eggs
(910 posts)amandabeech
(9,893 posts)The new government in Kiev has set elections for May 25, not that far away.
A fair election often calms people down, as does three months of relative calm prior to it.
So far, the only shots fired were the ones that killed the protesters in Kiev.
If Putin instigates a civil war, there will be no election, but many people will die unnecessarily.
By the way, there were reports earlier today that said that Angela Merkel, after a conversation with Putin, thought that he wasn't operating in reality.
Someone with a big military operating in his own reality is a big problem, whether his name is Bush or Putin.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Much like Constantinople/Istanbul...they are gateways...points of intense pressure for sea/marine/global/financial access. The Black Sea is wrought with ancient and current misadventures/wars. From the Roman Empire, Greek Civilization, Asian migration, the Balkans...all have met, fought, won and lost somewhere along the Black Sea.
It's Afghanistan and Iraq all over again, from our perspective.
1awake
(1,494 posts)leader of Ukraine made it seem he was going to be more friendly with the EU, then did an about face out of the blue and signed deals with Russia. People got pissed. People rioted. The west started showing/voicing/collaborating support for the rioters. Think.. a hands off regime change. Then, the rioter's rioted long enough and won. The leader skipped town to Russia.
Then... The Crimea which belonged to Russia until 1954.. was not about to fall into anyone elses hands except for Russia. Russia gathered military forces, ripped off their uniform emblems, and sent them in the Crimea. Everyone knows its Russians, but they aren't talking. Naturally, the west is pissed the Russia did this, and has a fake military drill going on next to the border where over 150,000 more troops are swarming.
Obama said stop and get out... Putin flipped him off. The EU as usual cant make up their minds what to do, but they are sure they are very cross with Russia. China said.. meh.
Thats where we are at so far.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)Putin's Russia does not abide by treaties made by any other duly elected Russian government.
That is not a good thing.
1awake
(1,494 posts)But then neither do we. I'm not defending Putin. defending him is meaningless because the situation is what it is. He has invaded Crimea and has over 16,000 boots entrenched. Another 150,000 troops are a stones through away. They have Yankovich writing letters giving them access (regardless if its legit or not). Large portions of Ukraine are Russian. Large portions of those large portions WANT Russia there. The situation is complex.
Our best bet is economic and diplomatic actions. The Russian economy is stagnant right now. The main economic card Russia has is gas lines feeding many in the EU. Due to the warm winter, much of the EU has 10% of their annual need in reserves. That card will devastate Ukraine if applied and probably Germany the most next, which is why Merkel is so cautious with her words. An economic package needs to be planned with the US most likely loaning approx 1-2 billion. The EU and other countries will need to quadruple that for it to have any lasting effect. As I said... the situation is complex, and people should not confuse air waves politics with geo political aggressive situations like this. (dont mean you)
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)and the percentage of them who wish Russia to take over.
This issue was discussed in one of the NYT discussion threads today and yesterday.
Many people in Ukraine speak Russian rather than Ukrainian or any of the minor languages, but not all of them are ethnic Russians. According to the Times discussions and other things I've seen, only 17% of Ukrainian residents are ethnic Russians. The rest are Ukrainian, mixed, Tatar, Hungarian, Ruthenian, etc. Too many "experts" are equating Russian language ability or prior votes for Yanukovich as indicative of Russian ethnicity or a desire to be reunited with Russia.
As far as I know, there is no reliable recent poll of Ukrainian residents/citizens as to their political desires. I think that the best indicator would be a fair election in May as the interim government intends to hold. Absent a real poll or clean vote, I don't think that anyone can say what the people of Ukraine, eastern or otherwise want. And no vote with armed men walking around counts as valid in my book.
1awake
(1,494 posts)Mine were spur of the moment; yours are more accurate. I was speaking of population areas more than numbers of Ukraine as a whole. Thanks for the incite, I always appreciate it.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)1awake
(1,494 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)There seem to be two extremes being discussed:
Extreme 1: Yanukovich, the righteous enemy of oligarchs and evil western bankers and corporatists, rejected the usurious EU and embraced the noble Russians, who just want to help. Neo-Nazis, fund and supported by the CIA, launched a coup and now control Ukraine. Noble Russia, always a champion for human rights, took in Yanukovich, the rightful ruler of Ukraine, and are now selflessly defending those under imminent threat from the neo-nazis.
Extreme 2: College Student protesters, yearning fro western european-style social democracy peacefully protested against Yanukovich, who betrayed them to Vladimir Putin, well known all-around bad guy. Yanukovich, seething evil, launched completely unprovoked attacked against the peaceful demonstrators, and the country turned against him, rising in righteous rebellion. He fled to Russia, well-known haven of traitors and scoundrels. It later turns out that Yanukovich had his entire house carpeted in Dalmatian puppy fur. Putin, infuriating by a humilating defeat, led Russian troops into Ukraine, riding a motorcyle powered by baby's blood, and showing off his bare chest.
The truth, no doubt, lies somewhere in the middle.
flying rabbit
(4,636 posts)... does not foment enough teeth gnashing righteousness to be worthy of our attention, does it?
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)fried eggs
(910 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)LisaLynne
(14,554 posts)where we collect actual facts about current events. Even some opinions as long as the person posting explains their biases or whatever. Wow, that would be awesome. It's really hard to get a good sense of reality on stuff that you may not know a lot about, you know?
Response to fried eggs (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Can you post a link / links to the narrative you used ?
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,184 posts)With extra tin foil.