be nothing but War and Pillage. We told them so, these criminals needed to be stopped, prosecuted and jailed for life for the massive crimes they committed. But we moved forward and we knew, those of us who still believe that when you commit serious crimes you should be prosecuted, that there would be more wars.

If that cancer could be removed from the behind the scenes, the US would could be a force for good in the world. Until then with these morons roaming free, speaking for America, agitating and rousing the loonies in our society, they are a threat to safety and well being of people everywhere.

They stole an election and their PNAC in place and they are not going to stop or let anyone else stop their plans to dominate the world.

So much snark, very little enlightenment.

And yes, he's in charge. And John Kerry is not a neocon.

Now, I catch a lot of shit here for criticizing Obama and Kerry, but I don't think for a minute that either man is beating the drums of war.

Furthermore, what Putin and Russia did is exactly what I've criticized the U.S. for doing.

I'm not going to have a double standard for Russia.

Oh, and this is just blatant, embarrassing, piss poor propaganda

fuck all propaganda. and fuck all those spewing it.

acting tough enough?

Next time before you attack, ASK. I assumed people here have been seeing the war criminals all over the place offering their opinions. I have. I won't assume again that people are informed.

I don't need to ask. I read what you wrote and it was bullshit. I called you on it.

Yes, there are those with power and influence who are using this situation to manipulate- largely to try and keep the defense budget from the cuts the President has proposed.

You're lapping up propaganda if you buy into the laughably transparent shit in the OP.

I'll repeat myself: I DETEST PROPAGANDA WHEREVER THE FUCKITY FUCK FUCK IT EMANATES FROM.

Last edited Tue Mar 4, 2014, 02:44 PM - Edit history (1)

on US policy, utterly ridiculous. And until they are stopped, they will continue to influence US policy and make it very difficult for anyone who is trying to avoid all out war.

PEOPLE are influenced by them. Keep ignoring it, I won't and each time I see them spewing their warmongering garbage, I will point out the dangerous influence they have, and if you think they have no influence try talking to people who use the Corporate Media as their only source of news. They INFLUENCE public opinion, period.

I DETEST THE REFUSAL TO SEE THE INFLUENCE OF THE NEOCONS ON THIS COUNTRY!

Yeah, we can all shout, that makes us more 'right'!

I, too, assumed that most of the long timers here on DU were aware of the Neo-Con Influence and that they had heard and read Victoria Nuland's revelations of manipulation in the Ukraine in her intercepted phone call where she was pushing for "Yats" who is the very person who is now installed in Kiev! Also, that she had been there week before handing out Cookies to Protestors on the streets.

I know it was posted here several times and Democracy Now and Amy have had numerous reports about the Neo-Cons pushing to destabilize the Ukraine. Just Monday Amy had Ray McGovern on and he had been station in Russia years ago (so he knows the territory) who again spoke about Nuland and the Neo-Cons influence in the State Department.

It's amazing to think that there are long time active folks here who aren't aware of the Neo-Cons/PNAC connections inside our Government and how heavily they are infested at State. Given John Kerry's statements lately I've come to believe that either he can't do anything about them at State...or he AGREES with them and their crazy intentions to destabilize every country in their original "Project for the New American Century&quot PNAC)
Plan. What a horror that would be if he agrees with them.

exposed manipulations rooting FOR the very person, how coincidental, now in power there.

And this, Amy is the best btw:

Keep up the good work.

I had totally forgotten about that. There's so much to keep up with and so much that gets lost in the swarms of distraction to remember.

That right there is a tip off as to Republican influence in this. John McCain never struck me as a card carrying Neo-Con but he sure loves to help them out whenever he gets a chance. So does his buddy Lindsey Graham. But hanging around with Neo-Nazi's seems to show he's either totally senile and doesn't know what he's doing or he's dumb as a rock and just does it for the publicity and attention it brings him.

things most people would feel compelled to do before jumping into something like this. Think of how he got Sarah Palin as a running mate. I believe she was picked for him and he met her briefly before it became a done deal. You would think someone running for president might want to know their future VP a little better than a fifteen minute meeting.

The documentary about she was chosen, and it was from someone inside the campaign, was pretty shocking.

I'm sure he didn't go there on the spur of the moment. It would be interesting to know who sent him there though.

I never saw him as one of the inner circle of neocons, like Neil Bush and Cheney eg, but he sure supported all their war mongering.

do protect their own. I think there's more to McCain than meets the eye.

I'll have to refresh my memory on that one sometime... He's one lucky survivor or it's more than luck.

proves you wrong. Ignore it if you want, but I won't. You are lapping up the happy talk that we removed them from power when we threw out Republicans. They did not go away and will not until they are prosecuted for their crimes and totally discredited as they should have been long ago.

I guess you forgot about the Republican Party also where they have huge influence. Try as a Republican to go against their policies and see how long you last in Congress.

Dream them away, they are a nightmare I agree, if you wish, but anyone who refuses to see their influence on our government, (pssst, Republicans control the house) is simply refusing to face facts.

Bolton has no position in the govt. does he?
The only place Bolton has a voice is Faux news.

administration? After he left the few months stint at the UN? He is still doing what he did back then, influencing public opinion, or trying to.

And no, Faux is NOT the only place he has a voice although that would be enough for the role he plays on behalf of Neocon war mongering. He is greeted with the utmost respect for his views on Foreign Policy by publications like the WSJ eg, where he slammed Obama's Syria policies.

He was supposed to appear on the BBC a few nights ago. Why would someone who should be among the most discredited, loony members of the neocon warmongers, be still considered worthy of anything other than an indictment for helping lie this country into war? Could YOU get these platforms to speak about these issues? Do people like Amy Goodman get these offers?

It's simple, they still have huge influence for some reason on the corporate media and everywhere propaganda can be spread. And is there anyone countering their propaganda?

They sure have influence in the Republican Party which controls the House right now, don't they?

You don't have to hold an official position to influence policy. You only need to have enough people in place who will promote your policies for you. THAT is why so much money is spent on candidates for election.

In fact, most politicians probably have less influence than those backed by Big Money.

Like many of our US Mainstream Media ....he has loyalties to the folks who fund him, and whose agenda he agrees with.

trying so hard to decide where they should stand. They think if they admit that the neocon policies ARE US foreign policy, they will somehow by criticizing this administration. Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe it is at the point now that no President can change US Foreign Policy even if s/he wants to. I am beginning to think that this President WANTS TO but the neocons are out there slamming him as 'weak' which is how they get the public riled up.

WE have to support ANY efforts by anyone who is trying to avoid war by pointing out their very real presence not just behind the scenes, BUT when that isn't enough, right out in front slamming anyone who isn't going along with the long, sad history of our 'interventionism'. I'm beginning to think this is a battle for the future of this country.

Sabrina writes: "I'm beginning to think this is a battle for the future of this country."

Good of you to join, Sabrina. Just be aware it is a dark place, this realization that this is a battle for the future of the US. And that our enemies are very powerful and will stop only when they are exposed.

The problem we have is evidenced here in this thread, wherein several big time DU members have shown they are utterly incapable of realizing the future of the country is being planned by the powerful. And they write and write and write about how damned oblivious they are. And act as if that is the wisest course!

You, Sabrina, never were oblivious, you just didn't want to see the dark. Well, maybe now you have? Only by seeing and acting as one, indivisible in our quest to save the US, can we ever bring exposure to the bad plans already in motion that have and are destroying our democracy.

This tu quoque nonsense is getting out of hand.

"You can't say anything because of Iraq. Look, here are the state news agencies of the imperial powers occupying Crimea, Chechnya, and Tibet to back me up."

committed by US bad actors, that means we can't criticize the actions of other bad actors, but then act as if RT.com and the Chinese govt are the high priests of international law and morality.

we agree on a lot more than we disagree on, but what fun is agreeing with people?

still, turning to RT and the mouthpiece for the Chinese Government?

Ugh.

As I said, I despise propaganda- whatever its source.

enough to be able to stand proud and say 'look at us, WE are what the world should emulate, we have never tortured anyone because we respect the human rights of all people. We have NEVER invaded another sovereign nation or supported vile dictators, or homophobic governments in return for permission to spread our empire all over the world. WE have never back an illegal coup d'etat in Latin America, Venezuela, Honduras, Chile or anywhere else.

We believe in democracy, in our system of law and respect International law. We have never mowed people down for peacefully demonstrating against their government's policies, or passed laws that oppose granting rights to minorities.

I know, it's hard to tell who I am talking about. Each one included in my teeny tribute to world powers despite their dismal records on human rights has the same gall to point fingers elsewhere.

What is really sad is that this country should have been the one who COULD have pointed fingers, who could have come from a position of respect, but we have thrown that precious power away, not so much because we had a corrupt, lying, criminal administration for eight years, that can happen in a democracy, but because we 'moved forward' and dismissed the deaths, the maimed, the wrongfully imprisoned, the tortured and instead, treated the criminals like elder statesmen and women.

NO ONE of any of the players in this latest but now familiar scenario, has the moral authority to speak about democracy, honesty, integrity and/or human rights.

Let's try to stop pretending. Maybe if this country finally acknowledged it lost its moral but pledged to do something about it, instead of pointing fingers elsewhere when everyone knows our history on these matters, then maybe, we could start all over again. Meantime our authoritarian admonishments to others for the same transgressions we are guilty of, only costs us even valuable respect around the world.

And any future "protection" China might offer them.

should involve Russia in resolving the conflict. Since it appears most in the Crimea are either Russian or pro-Russian, I can't see how it can ever be resolved without Russia and Ukraine reaching an understanding. Otherwise it will be a continual stand off like Taiwan.

The new interim government in Ukraine was doing absolutely nothing to interfere with Russia's use of those bases. For everything that Putin has been saying he has not said that Ukraine was blockading the naval bases or the accompanying army and air force bases. All was continuing as normal.

All Russia had to do was continue to use those bases normally under the existing leases. But what did Putin do? He's blockaded Ukrainian military bases and sent "unmarked" troops to occupy much of Crimea, although he claims that those troops aren't his. He is the aggressor here.

Putin is building a new naval base to the east on Russia's black sea coast at Novorossik (sp). The base is behind schedule, perhaps because Putin spent so much money on Socchi and not on a more important project.

Putin seems to have panicked when the Ukrainian president that he controlled was thrown out and then fled the country to be replaced by an interim government which did nothing to Russia or Putin. It seems that Putin is a complete control freak who doesn't understand how to play nicely with people who are not afraid of him. If he'd had my kindergarten teacher, Mrs. Ostensacken, he either would have been asked to go home and grow up a little before attending kindergarten or he would have been held back. Somewhere in Russia there is probably a teacher who regrets her decision to pass this little guy on to the next grade considering his immature behavior.

FML. This country is losing it's mind.

This is nuts here, this fellating of Putin.

So THAT'S why they are all over the place screaming for War with Russia?

Obama's weak, and should be just like an authoritarian who previously lead the KGB and declared open season on LGBT citizens in his country. Plus, he rides bears! He's so cool! I wish we had our very own Fascist too!

people by attempting to use their now very familiar emotional manipulation. This is nothing new, we on the Left 'loved Saddam' remember?

I don't fall for their garbage, didn't back then and don't now. They are using an appeal to our national pride, playing off their propaganda about the left being unfit to take care of National Security, undermining the president when he meets with world leaders, LIKE PUTIN and Iran's new leaders.

Surely you're not buying their propaganda? They are hoping that by rousing up 'national pride' it will put pressure on Obama, they are hoping the public will, to 'prove' how much stronger our LEADERS are than Putin.

And they will keep doing this until they are stopped.

Bolton attacked Obama on Syria, 'Assad fooled him'. Blah, blah, they love WAR and will say and do anything to get this country into more wars.

I am glad this president did not take their bait on Syria and hopefully will not do so on Ukraine.

War Criminals lie, as we know. I believe nothing coming from them and always assume whatever they say people should assume the opposite. I thought we learned that when Bush was occupying the WH.

They love Putin's stance on his LGBT citizens. He's what a leader should be in their minds - tough, unfeeling, and favorable towards a police state.

They don't just call Obama weak - they compare him to Putin, like Obama should act more like Putin. Very telling.

gay rights. You're confusing the neocons with the Christian Right, who they will use, but have zero interest in other than their usefulness. I believe during the Abramoff Affairs we learned how they used the Christian Right.

Of course they will use 'imagery' ie, the enemy being stronger and tougher than the Dem who doesn't want to go to war hoping the rhetoric will rouse up support to go prove to the world that the 'enemy' can be 'taken down'.

These people have no principles, except one, they HATE the Left who they view as a threat due to the fact that we are not as easily fooled by them, to their war mongering.

Obama seems, so far, to have ignored their baiting which is not easy to do when we have publications like the WSJ publishing articles by John Bolton, touting is 'creds' as a 'credible critic' of Obama's policies re Syria and now Ukraine.

The ONLY way to deal with them is to remind people of the lies they told to drag this country to war in Iraq and to do it consistently, but never, ever fall for their bait. They spend money on propaganda and will switch from one position to another in a flash if they see an opportunity to accomplish their political agenda.

I hate all propaganda. period. no exceptions. fuck all the propagandists.

fuck this shit which is essentially praise for Russia invading another country.

fuck posting this shit.

I posted an OP saying no one here was running around praising Russia, but you sure are doing a dandy bit of work defending Putin's indefensible fucking invasion.

Grow up just a bit, will you?

Some here appreciate reading foreign press news, aka propaganda in your mind and I will continue to post it unless I'm told to stop by the head office.

I sure the hell won't stop due to your petty complaints.

Carry on and continue to embarrass yourself.

Your loud, bellicose rants scare nor fool not a soul.

RIA, Pravda, and RT not working out?

press without fear of being sucked in with their propaganda?

Some here want to read what the foreign press is saying on international situations.

I suggest you utilize the 'ignore' feature as I will continue to post from those sources as I see fit or told by admin to stop.

So far all I've seen are propaganda and mouthpieces of the Russian and Chinese governments. There is plenty of foreign press; Pravda and RT aren't it.

propaganda (even our own). There is a reason why our gov't have departments who's soul purpose is to monitor said propaganda as there is always a shred of motivation and truth within those messages.

You can hope to 'wish it away' but that isn't going to happen.

But don't be shocked when people point out that these sources are in fact state-run or state-funded outlets, not independent journalistic efforts.

gets publish in our MSM, let me know...will ya?

on this matter.

It's not "if", but it is "how" and "when" and "under what "circumstances". Obama is walking on a very thin line here. He has to take actions against Russia for the blatant invasion of another country, but at the same time, keep the lines of communication open with Russia for the future stabilization of the Ukraine.

It's a complicated situation and above my pay grade.

perhaps even Taiwan, one day.

I doubt they care about Ukrainians but "historical ties" and "sphere of influence" arguments are the same for Russia in Ukraine and China in Tibet and one day in Taiwan.

China has traditionally been a super advocate of national sovereignty, territorial integrity and non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries. Partly they may have really believed it and partly because they did not want anyone interfering in their affairs so it seemed like a great doctrine to support when they weren't as strong as they are now.

Now China seems to see the wisdom of scaling back a little on the whole "non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries". Why? I think they see self-interest in this new perspective.

pump out this but switching Taiwan for Ukraine and China for Russia?