General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo hard to get the truth about Ukraine. Reminds me of the Iraq legacy of lies. Media failed us.
Actually most leaders in both parties failed us then in the lead up to the invasion.
I have been looking for the 2004 article in Mother Jones. I believe it was called A Legacy of Lies. It tells of our leaders going on TV and scaring us about the dangers posed by Iraq.
I saved part of it, found it in a post from 2009. Almost unbelievable. DU was about the only place I learned about the real situation. When I came in 2002 my eyes were opened wide.
These two people stunned me in their exaggerations. Heck, they started back in the 90s with the fear tactics.
Iraq was a legacy of lies told and lies believed. A confused time. A tragic time.
Faced with the need to justify an economically devastating and internationally unpopular embargo of Iraq, the Clinton administration engaged in a pattern of stretching and distorting weapons data to bolster their claim that Saddam Hussein was still hiding an illicit arsenal. The Clinton White House never used that "intelligence" to push for an invasion of Iraq, as Bush so effectively did. But in its desperate quest to salvage a crumbling Iraq policy, the Clinton White House laid the groundwork for the deceptions of their successors.
In a November 1997 Sunday morning appearance on ABC, Defense Secretary William Cohen held up a five-pound bag of sugar for the cameras to dramatize the threat of Iraqi anthrax: "This amount of anthrax could be spread over a city -- let's say the size of Washington. It would destroy at least half the population of that city. One breath and you are likely to face death within five days."
"It could wipe out populations of whole countries!" Cokie Roberts gasped as Cohen described the Iraqi arsenal. "Millions, millions," Cohen responded, "if it were properly dispersed."
A year later, at a nationally televised town hall meeting on Iraq at Ohio State University, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright brought home the dangers: "Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. The evidence is strong that Iraq continues to hide prohibited weapons and materials."
And there was the trusted Colin Powell. I remember that Kofi Annan pointed out in his book that Powell never really believed his testimony about Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Kofi Annan's memoir: Did Colin Powell doubt his own WMD claims?
Kofi Annan, who was secretary-general of the United Nations during the lead-up to war, is releasing a new memoir Interventions: A Life in War and Peace in which he says that Powell had greater doubts than previously believed about the Bush administration's evidence suggesting that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. How skeptical was Powell? Here, a brief guide to Annan's account:
How does Annan know what Powell was thinking?
He says Powell told him, according to The New York Times. Annan, who considers Powell a friend, says that the then-secretary of State dropped by Annan's 38th-floor office at U.N. headquarters in New York City six weeks into the war. He says Powell was ebullient after learning that U.S. forces had found what they thought were the mobile laboratories the Bush administration had claimed Hussein was using to make weapons of mass destruction. Powell, who had made an impassioned case to the U.N. Security Council that Iraq's chemical and biological weapons program justified the invasion, was excited. "Kofi, they've made an honest man of me," Annan quotes Powell as saying.
What else does Annan say about the meeting?
He says that as he sat with Powell, "the relief and the exhaustion was palpable." Annan wasn't convinced that Iraq really had all of the weapons the Bush administration Powell included had claimed. Still, Annan writes, "I could not help but smile along with my friend" and "could only be impressed by the resilience of this man, who had endured so much to argue for a war he clearly did not believe in."
How does this differ from previous accounts?
In his own memoir, Powell says his February 2003 speech at the U.N. justifying the invasion on the basis of what turned out to be bogus evidence was "a blot, a failure [that] will always be attached to me." He doesn't say he knew the intelligence was false, but he does say, "I am mad mostly at myself for not having smelled the problem. My instincts failed me." Powell has said he was misled, and demanded that the CIA and Pentagon explain why they didn't tell him that they knew that a key informant Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, also known as "Curveball" had lied when he said Saddam had mobile bio-weapons labs.
The media is failing us again. It would help if some sensible leaders of either party could manage some air or print time to stand up to the lies about Russia and Ukraine...and tell us the simple truth.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)What a difference eleven years (and an election or two) makes.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)It may be unintentional on the part of many, but it's more popular to protect the party leaders than face some of the hard truths.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The influx of corporate posting has been steady and completely unnatural.
It's not an accident, amateurish as much of the propaganda may seem.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4598446
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)or some concerted effort to shape our opinions is launched. It sort of has to be to rise above the ambient noise level. But sometimes it amateur, and sometimes it's not. You can spot the amateurs by their naive tactics, for example they get in big flame wars, but they don't do the 4 'D's so much, they try to overpower you, not thwart discussion. They are more honest, so to speak.
I still find it funny that anybody thinks that is a worthwhile use of their money, but I suppose times are desperate.
reddread
(6,896 posts)we even get to read their operating instructions.
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)If you read news websites you probably saw it too
warrant46
(2,205 posts)These Cloowns are so obvious they are easy to spot
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Simply attempts to swiftboat the messengers and ridicule DU posters. Nothing of substance offered.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Just wondering.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)The anti-war people don't have much of a microphone, now do they?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I just finished reading a post that appeared to be advocating a "limited military engagement" with Russia in Crimea.
Personally I'm opposed to the US becoming militarily engaged with Russia in what amounts to their back yard, if you wish to call that "anti-war" then be my guest.
My take on the whole situation is that it's probably more complex than can be fit on your average bumper sticker so expecting anything approaching a majority of people to understand it is charmingly naive.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)In fact I don't see complexity in pretty much any invasion argument I can think of. It boils down to: X power holder wants Y territory.
WWI and WWII were probably the only two wars I'm informed about which were largely (mostly) defensive and had complexities. But even they ended badly, with WWI leaving behind precursors to WWII and WWII leaving behind precursors (the Eastern Bloc decided by the MolotovRibbentrop Pact, an agreement between Russia and Germany during WWII) to more modern conflicts in that same region.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)You already appear to have a 'palace coup d'etat' ongoing... Nazism is also revolutionary... 'Power to the People' could go Tea Party on you...
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Political revolution is just one state actor after the next inventing a new method of authoritarianism and domination of the renters class. Be it the Stalinist's or be it the wealthy founding fathers. Yes there are different levels of oppression, but they are all statist in nature.
Revolution is unchanging and cannot be reversed from the passing whims of the political state.
The only revolution I suggest is that of an anti-political, social, and anti-industrial technological revolution. It is necessarily anti-political because as we see in Russia, social regression is easily achieved. The plutocrats in the US have achieved great technological regression.
Basically I support post-leftism.
Ukraine is not undergoing any sort of revolution any one would desire, since the end result is going to be at the whims of the oligarchs, no matter how it goes. I was simply giving Fumesucker my idea for a bumpersticker.
Since they apparently have decided to dismiss my viewpoint and haven't really elucidated the "complexities" that they believe are inherent in this situation.
It's not really that complex at all and everyone being cheeky knows it.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Why yes, you did, josh.
You supported the EU state in its campaign to rid itself of their Ghadaffi problem. Is that this post-leftism of which you speak?
And Libya is a rotten stinking mess these days, thanks to the support of the bombing from people like you.
Hope you stay far away from the Ukrainians, they sure don't need your kind of help, eh?
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I supported and continue to support the agency of a self-determined peoples for democratic causes. Particularly having known people who died in that conflict.
Post-leftism doesn't apply because that was a state overthrowing another state.
Libya is doing as best as can be expected when, after they voted against the islamist elements, those elements decided to do what they do best, reign terror down. They too will eventually be marginalized.
Meanwhile, yeah, the Ukrainians are pretty unified against Putin's war of aggression despite people invoking propaganda boogieman ala incubator babies. They don't need the support of someone posting on a forum, Putin is doing that all on his own.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Yeah, we went in, toppled the existing established and peaceful government with our VIOLENCE and now Libya is rotting away. And you act like, "Oh well, tough shit"?
So you support state over state violence as a means to political gain for one state over another. After that bombing you supported, you now say too bad for Libya, they are now all fucked up, but are doing the best as can be expected?
You now claim you support the agency of self-determined peoples for democratic causes, but that, juxtaposed against your support for state on state violence, exposes all your ideas as total bullshit.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I'm pretty sure Libya's uprising was internal. Of course, it could've ended up like Syria, which I'm sure you would think was a preferable option, going by your logic here.
Whatever, your off-topic derailment was successful. I suggest you go hide from radiation somewhere.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)And especially those who after they get their war on just walk away and say "Oh well, best that can be expected."
I see that you can't defend your own words here and try a derailment tactic of your own.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)And we're in complete agreement.
Looks like you are taking something personally and projecting some false attributes to me.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)You supported the bombing of Libya.
How's that working out, that use of violence?
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Would you like to bomb Putin?
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Reduced to babbling about radiation, are you?
Can't even answer a simple question even when it is about your own words right here and now. You are uncomfortable being challenged about your support for the use of violence are you? Good. You should be.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)You can't substantiate your claim with one quote of me "supporting bombing Libya" because my support extended to the people of Libya fighting against a war on themselves which they didn't start. I doubt you read one line of Andrew Flood's analysis. It is trivial in fact to find comments where I lament the role played by the imperialists. So your scorn is misplaced nonsense.
You're just lying about me and I don't find anything you say remotely attributable to me at all. But you can pretend that you are somehow morally superior on this topic of "being against violence."
And yes, your radiation fantasies are instructive as to your ability to analyze situations factually or even logically and your written tone surely doesn't suggest you're sincere one bit. Reminds me of another poster whose false sincerity I recently found objectionable.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)You supported the bombing of Libya. And, didn't you also support the US getting in the middle of Syria? Why are you running from that now? Embarrassed?
You say I am lying about you, when in reality it is you lying about you.
Yeah, I am against violence and bombing other countries. So yeah, compared to you I do feel very superior. VERY.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Until then, I'll not be responding.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Like I say, the worst are the warmongers that once they get their war start running away from it. Had I supported the bombing of Libya like you did, I'd be writing all the time about how now that we broke it we need to fix it, not running away.
Your not responding anymore is the best outcome desired. You can fool some of the people but not me, josh.
reddread
(6,896 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)And, check out the Latin America forum re Venezuela. Some people seem to be for war and violence, anywhere. I don't get it, frankly.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)post-anarchist.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)I actually don't know because I haven't been able to read more than a tiny fraction of what's been posted here, and I mostly try to avoid the corporate media.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I just want people to come out and say where they stand, since some are reluctant to do so.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)but I do see some context to them that is missing from pretty much all of the discussion.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I only see that with people parroting the "misinformation" meme, because they won't take a stance, they won't show where the misinformation is coming from or even what it is.
It's just "too complicated."
And they sure as hell won't take a stance on it.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)from where he/Russia stands, for historical and strategic reasons.
I do not know enough about the industrialised Eastern regions of Ukraine, but it sounds like there's more of a market for their products in Russia right now than there would be in the EU... so economics might tilt them in Russia's direction, which would seem to imply some sort of partition, or some sort of confederal structure with high autonomy for the regions, of Ukraine would appear to be on the cards.
Western Ukraine, as a relatively unindustrialised grain basket wheat producer afloat on international markets, will be vulnerable whatever happens.
Cooler heads appear to be prevailing in the councils of the EU; I'm hoping for some rationality out of the US administration, and NATO, too.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)So Putin's strategy I think is folly. His better route would've been to simply appeal to whatever oligarch gained power. Ukraine's industry is still highly dependent on Russian gas, as well as is the EU. Instead he's risking creating an ethnic war which, ironically, would put the minority ethnic Russians in a very terrible spot.
The US isn't going to meddle outside of intelligence (troop movement, abilities, etc). That will never be admitted, btw.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Creepy as hell.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Not being a warmonger like Bush. I haven't paid close attention to the issues of Russia and Ukraine, but I am trying to now. Trust me it's hard to trust the media.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)Warmonger? Sure but bully first and bullies avoid fights with those that have think has any chance of actually giving them a fight.
Further, I doubt it would be allowed. Trying to pull something that disruptive to global commerce probably gets you waking up dead, if only from a daydream.
The MIC take would be a drop in the sea compared to the money and opportunities for profit lost.
Putting that to the side though, just not many folks are that crazy and that stupid, even among the crazy stupid and proud of it.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)and it's treated like some politically earth-shattering kablooie instead of a return to type...
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)I have given up. Du was my last refuge but hard to find sustenance here too, these days.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)But this link is amazing..
From Socialist Worker. Org.
Amazing how complicated this story is but the concern of the new Ukranian Govt embracing right wing european type racist nationalists is an issue. Also this group seems intent of getting financial
aid from the European Bank. IFC..IMF...Which will certainly use Austerity measures To get their loans repaid..
Long but really complete...
http://socialistworker.org/2014/03/03/threat-of-war-hangs-over-ukraine
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)is nowhere near as simple and straightforward as Iraq was. There are lots of complexities to the situation that both "sides" are missing, which is why I find myself disagreeing with most of the posts here on the subject, whichever "side" they're taking.
During the run up to the Iraq war, I had no difficulty seeing the truth of what was happening. It was right there on the TV screen. I was relieved when I found DU because I finally found some other people who were seeing the same things I was seeing, and that seemed to patently obvious to me.
It's been decades since the media were into the truth, and at this point I don't think they are even capable of distinguishing it in even simple and straighforward circumstances. Most matters pertaining to the former Soviet Union and complex and multifaceted, and do not lend themselves to "simple truth" even if the media were inclined to give it.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)It really is.
Response to madfloridian (Original post)
Post removed
malaise
(269,068 posts)Rec
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)The media has moved into worse than useless on the objectivity meter. I doubt that they would lie to us about a coming storm or flood, but on other issues, anything that might influence our political perception, they omit, fabricate or distort.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Ukraine is a large country, with more than one language spoken, and different parts have been added to it, in different ways, and different times. So the history that the inhabitants see can be quite varied. Put politics on top of that (nationalist, socialist, oligarchic, democratic, Russia-facing, EU-facing, etc.) and it's a complicated situation.
You can't just say "just report what's happening" either. In a country of 45 million, there's more happening than you can just report. The media has to work out what's more important.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)And if they do, they mention it as if it's something that was done decades ago. It certainly isn't happening NOW. Oh no.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Does no other nation in this world ever do anything that has an impact on international politics?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)How do you expect the media to be able to report stuff like that objectively? If it was happening, it's not as if the Maidan protesters would invite the media along to meetings with a US agent to record how the evil USA is controlling them, is it?
Perhaps there was influence from US groups. But you can't call it 'simple'.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)The other DUer was saying they should be uncovering plots. Sometimes they can - thanks to whistleblowers. But when the plots are being hidden from the government they're trying to subvert, the media may not find them either.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Well, la de da. This media of which you speak, is the same media which, as the OP says, is the same media that lied to us about Iraq.
She can damn well demand they 'report what's happening' and let the people decide what is important. Not as you seem to desire that they tell us what is important.
And you are a host on DU?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)How many Ukrainian cities and towns are you going to put on air, to report how the local council is behaving, what the police are doing, who is protesting what, what the military barracks are doing? To be realistic, how many reporters do you think any media organisation outside Ukraine can devote to this? 100? Even if you wanted to sit through the reports of 100 different people, do you think you'd see the full picture of what's happening in the country? And do you think you'd then say "oh, it's simple"? if you do, then please describe this 'simple truth' to us.
They are called the 'media' because they're in between you and the subject of the report. But there has to be some editorial choice, because no-one has the resources or the time to completely describe all the events in a complicated situation.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)And poor Iraq got bombed and thousands killed and the media just says "Oh well."
Some of us don't like that shite. Some of us are not willing to just listen to the excuses for the sorry ass media. We want better, this time, and we are letting it be known we want better, not more of the same. You should join us.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)You (just you - I can't class anyone else with you) need some information. No-one should join you.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)First you say something to the effect that we should all just let the media decide what we need to know. That we should just be content with their content.
Now you expect anyone to put any confidence in any of your other ramblings?
My post in 45 was a simple explanation to someone who I thought was getting worked up over even simpler reports from some Fox news type telecast. I probably provided more info than the FOX news did. You could have easily replied to the same poster with whatever you wanted to say, instead you personally attack me for my simplicity. You did not attack the info that I delivered, because you couldn't come up with any thing wrong except that it was too simple.
Talk about sorry ass posts....geeez, get a life.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)...that sort of thing is the lowest of the low.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Or are you ust making accusations without any actual evidence?
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... it seems just as likely to me that such "paid operatives" are supporting YOUR end of the argument.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)This type of work is incompatible with human decency and a functioning conscience:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097
raven mad
(4,940 posts)Limited input by decent media - and very low "bandwidth" on the comp - can't afford more.
Can anyone tell me why the Ukraine went from hello to "crisis" in two days?
Can anyone please - and I'm serious - explain WHY this is a "crisis"? Please - I am being dead honest, and I have a sick kitty to deal with, too, and it's 2 am......... And when the explanations come in, please keep 'em simple. Yeah, I am that dumb.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)10 days ago, after the peaceful occupiers of a square in Kiev were set upon by the state police force and they stood up for themsleves and made the police retreat, the president of the Ukraine ran for his life after the elected parliament impeached him. Kinda like what we should have done to bush, eh?
Anyway, Russia, as a neighbor to the Ukraine, and on the other side, Europe, are both now seeing what can be done to take advantage of the situation.
Remember, tho, we made Russia leave eastern Europe without us firing a shot, so we, the west, are looked upon quite favorably by the people of the Ukraine.
So this is, at present not a crisis for anyone but the Ukranians. Given that we have a president Obama and not a Romney, it looks like peace will win the days ahead and the crisis for the Ukranians will be resolved without violence.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)I thought the war pigs were about to get another payday - but not with MY president. I really did not understand the urgency and general panic on our locally-owned and Koch operated media.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)They failed at getting a war with Syria going, but now see an opportunity in the Ukraine.
A new war would mean big bucks for defense industries and lots of bloody news for them to repeat over and over.
But our president is too cool for their crap. That's why we got him elected!
raven mad
(4,940 posts)I cried, screamed my lungs out and ran down the block to tell my friends when the first election results were in. I did the same damn thing the 2nd time!
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)It's not as 'simple' as you'd like to picture it, is it?
Many people (especially on DU) would say "the peaceful occupiers of a square in Kiev were set upon by the state police force and they stood up for themselves" is hopelessly simplistic. For a start, you haven't even tried to explain why they were occupying the square. You say Europe is "seeing what can be done to take advantage of the situation"; a main reason for the occupation was about an agreement with the EU. Many of the protesters would not see the EU as 'taking advantage' of them, but looking for the links they wanted. However, we can't just sweep the right wing nationalist protesters under the carpet, either - and they weren't always 'peaceful'.
The only place in Ukraine you've mentioned is Kiev. You've said nothing about the economics of Russia oil and gas, corruption in the flow of that into and through Ukraine (from all sides), arrests of opposition politicans, linguistic divisions, which parts of Ukraine voted for Yanukovych and which against him, the history of Crimea, the status of the Russian forces there ...
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Yes, it is a crisis for just the Ukranians. Is it a crisis for you? How so?
The People there are on the first steps to solving their problems and it will be best if they do not have outside influences working to harm their efforts to throw off the oppression.
Or is it that you think outside influences should get involved? What do you suggest we do? Trust the media is one thing you have said. Well, we've seen how that worked out for Iraq, haven't we?
Surely you aren't one who thinks you should be the police and walk in and tell Ukraine what they should do, eh? Or are you?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)The OP isn't about that, either. It's about getting 'the truth'. If it's a crisis for the Ukrainians, then it is a crisis, by definition. That would be 'the truth'.
The situation has always been about outside influences - the old president rejected an agreement with the EU that a lot of people wanted, in favour of closer ties to Russia, who had demanded that Ukraine couldn't have both. Add in the situation in Crimea, which was only made part of Ukraine in 1954, and had been Russian before that (and also has a Muslim Tatar history, just to complicate things), and you see that you can't just say "keep outside influences out of it". The Ukrainians are arguing about which outside influences to pay attention to.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)The best we can do is to make sure the info that comes from there is independent and as close to the truth as possible.
Again: is this a crisis for you? How so? You seem to be declaring it is, so lay it out. Tell your Truth.
As far as I can see, the people are working to throw off the shackles of oppression. If they ask for our help then we should give it. And not barge in under false pretenses like we did in Iraq, which is what the OP is about.
Given that the RW are desiring more blood since Iraq has wound down, and we know they own our media, and have lied to us before, our demands that the Truth be told were never more important. It could save countless lives if the Truth be known. You should join us in our demands.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Yes, it's a crisis, because the president fled/ has been ousted, there are Russian troops controlling Crimea (firing warning shots at unarmed Ukrainian troops today), Crimea has an ethnic Russian majority who probably support those Russian troops, southern an Eastern Ukraine also has significant ethnic Russians (or those for whom Russian is their first langauge) who are making varying noises about supporting the old president - or at least not recognising the new government; the govt has debts it has to decide whether to pay or not, especially to Russian gas suppliers, whether it can get the money from the EU or elsewhere in the west, what conditions might be applied, and so on.
But to you, you can just say "the people are working to throw off the shackles of oppression".
OK, here's what I've posted on Ukraine:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=734659
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4542195
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4545620
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4552312
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4558213
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4561115
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4561135
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4561093
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4557843
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=740300
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=737825
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=741237
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=741290
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=737894
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4582772
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4584369
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=742717
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=743208
http://www.democraticunderground.com/124379695
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=743334
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=743887
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014743858
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=743942
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=744086
plus a bit about inequality in Russia, in reply to people claiming that Putin & Yanukovych are resisting the Western rich. Is that 'The Truth'? No, not all of it, but it's information, and a hell of a lot more useful than "the people are working to throw off the shackles of oppression". And most of it comes via the media you think are doing a bad job.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Good thing you are nowhere near a trigger.
I do think the media is trying to form opinions more to the liking of their corporate masters/owners. Like most everyone else knows to be true.
But you want us to just take what they give us and STFU?
You are on the wrong board for that position.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)"the people are working to throw off the shackles of oppression"
That's the simplistic "all Ukrainians were being oppressed, and now have an excellent government" thought that encourages both IMF loans and conditions, and the strongest resistance to Putin. It's the John McCain line.
I'm not telling anyone to STFU; I'm saying you need to look for more information, because you haven't got past the McCain stage yet. If you can find reliable information outside the media, great - bring it here. But the truth about Ukraine is not 'simple', and it's a lot more than "the people are working to throw off the shackles of oppression".
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and threats of further moves West are not a crisis?
Thank you for clearing that up.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)that tipped it into 'crisis'.
Ukraine has 2 groups, roughly the same size in numbers; one is in the majority in the north-west, including the capital, Kiev, and speaks Ukrainian as their first language, and tends to want closer ties to the EU. The other, in the majority in the south-east, speaks Russian, and likes closer ties with Russia.
The president and majority parliament coalition were from the latter group. When they became too close to Russia, and rejected Europe, protests in Kiev were met with violence by him, but they forced the president out. The reaction of the south-east was quiet at first, but is now becoming more pro-Russian - putting the Russian flag up on their town halls, for instance.
The Crimean peninsula is particularly Russian (it was part of Russia until 1954), and is the base for the Russian Black Sea Fleet. Over the weekend, Russian troops have taken control of the cities, roads and airports of Crimea, surrounded barracks of Ukrainian troops and demanded that they disavow the Kiev-based Ukrainian government and instead swear allegiance to the local Crimean pro-Russian politicians. They have announced there will be a referendum on March 30th about Crimea becoming independent (which would mean rejoining Russia, in reality).
raven mad
(4,940 posts)Our single newspaper (which is totally right-wing bird cage liner) wouldn't say anything about anything unless it made them money for the Koch brothers.
We don't have cable - just our 'net hookup. So, I depend on AlterNet, Huffpo, DU, etc. for everything information.
Thank you for being here and opening my eyes. We're in the "eye of the storm" here when it comes to anything Russia (Sarah couldn't see it from her yard, no) and are a heavily military state. We just sent 420 more from Ft. Wainwright to Afghanistan.
And we get no reality news - just RushcraP.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)The point is that Russia was defending it's base and military in Crimea. It has a right to do that. Also Putin got the OK from Russian Parliament. He didn't go in there to secure the bases and other military installments without doing it through proper channels.
The Neo-Cons in the State Department (the Newland/Kagan Crowd) are working 24/7 to hype this up into impending WWIII. Even the Business sites here are trying to whip up blaming stock market dip yesterday and "coming Russian implosion with devalued Rubble" so that Traders and Hedge Funds can make big bucks in forecasting panic.
It's mostly theater with much fun being made of Putin as an object of ridicule or Hitler II.
That's by design. Demonize another Countries leader for Neo-Con, Neo-Lib advantage to pump up more Defense Spending because we need to prepare ourselves to face the "Russian Bear." It's pathetic to see this. It's as if we are heading back to the Hoover/McCarthy dark period in our history. Spying, Commies under the bed...CointelPro arrest of peaceful protestors...infiltration of those groups who are expressing their right to disagree with policies on war, climate change, police violence, polluting fracking, pipelines for toxic oil and "Trade Agreements" done in secret that have little to do with trade and Wall Street and Banks gone rogue who are let off with minor fines as they go back to doing the same things that worked to crash our economy.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)To do that, they'd just need to stay in them - they have the weaponry they'd need to do that. Instead, they've gone out to civilian airports; they've surrounded Ukrainian barracks; and they've now fired warning shots at unarmed Ukrainian troops marching to their normal place of work.
There are 'trade agreements' on both sides - the agreements with Russia paid for Yanukovych's private country resort, for a start.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)where you are sending your troops. Putin got permission from the Russian parliament, but he did not get permission from Ukraine.
Sending your troops into another country without their permission is kind of a big deal. Usually referred to as an invasion.
That being said, it appears Putin realized this isn't going to be like Georgia, so the situation should get back under control without further military "adventures".
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)all the way back to the fall of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw pact. That be the 1990s.
Putin has made no secret that he wants his empire back, the 19th century called.
Crimea is the ONLY warm water port access for the Russian fleet. They have fought over that piece of land several times, starting oh in the middle ages, but the most recent, the Crimean war of the 1850s, the fun that preceded WW I, WW I, WW II, the cold war and now this.
For the record, nobody in their sane mind wants a war. Though miscalculations might lead to one. The last time miscalculations led to a major land war in Europe over that piece of real estate was a hundred years ago. Here, a time line of THAT period
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024601081
And if you wonder, South Ossetia and Georgia are starting to fit THAT pattern.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)If order for them to have failed us they would have to be trying to bring us facts and informed, unbiased opinion. That's not what their masters pay them to do.
warrprayer
(4,734 posts)nailed it
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)spanone
(135,847 posts)pjt7
(1,293 posts)honest, alternative media grow.. is the only way
Corporate Media is 100% controlled & it's not going to change (IMO)
jeff47
(26,549 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)not just American media before somebody gets into a=twitter
Cleita
(75,480 posts)most trustworthy reports. Al Jazeera is also doing a pretty good job. Otherwise what I'm seeing on the MSM is pretty much hogwash.