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amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 08:22 PM Mar 2014

Kiev agitators 'trained in Poland' claims Putin

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/164084,Kiev-agitators-trained-in-Poland-claims-Putin

Thenews.pl :: News from Poland

(from the website of a Polish radio station)

In his first in-depth comments since the Russian parliament gave the green light for military action in Ukraine on Saturday, Vladimir Putin told a press conference in Moscow, "look how well they were prepared."

"They underwent preparation in bases in Lithuanian and Polish border areas, and [of course] in Ukraine itself. Their instructors were ready for a lengthy time, you saw how they were prepared, like special forces, they were even divided up into squads," Putin told journalists.

On Saturday, the vice-president of the Russian Federation Council claimed that "gunmen who took over power in Kiev were trained in Poland and Lithuania".

The Polish defence ministry categorically denied the accusations on Tuesday.


Poland and Lithuania are EU and NATO members in good standing. This may be the reason why Poland took the unusual step of convening a NATO ministers meeting yesterday asserting that Poland was in danger. Now I understand why a bit more.

I know that references to Hitler's playbook are not looked upon favorably by some here, but one of the reasons Hitler gave for marching into Austria was that anti-Nazi agents were training in Austria. I'm sure the Polish government is well aware of that historical reference, as are the Lithuanians.

The Russian military exercise that is winding down took place in the Kaliningrad area as well as in the larger areas of Russia. Kaliningrad is the Russian name for the former East Prussia and it is on the Baltic Sea. It is cut off from the rest of Russia by Poland and Lithuania and, like the Crimea, has a good harbor and a Russian population.

I just hope that what Pres. Obama and the European leaders do will dissuade Putin further adventures in re-creating the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact. I remember the Cold War and it was bad for everybody.




24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Kiev agitators 'trained in Poland' claims Putin (Original Post) amandabeech Mar 2014 OP
Not only that ... lpbk2713 Mar 2014 #1
Oh, snap! Brigid Mar 2014 #4
Yes, yes. And the US exported homosexuality to lower Holy Russia's birth rate, Putin. nt EmilyAnne Mar 2014 #2
Angela Merkel may very well be right about Putin's mental health. amandabeech Mar 2014 #5
The Orthodox church is holding Putin's hand. EmilyAnne Mar 2014 #6
Some commentators have suggested that Russians are extremely sensitive amandabeech Mar 2014 #8
"...tried to get me to pay him $20 a month to keep him from stopping the washer and dryer" OMG! EmilyAnne Mar 2014 #18
Thanks for letting me know that I'm not the only victim amandabeech Mar 2014 #21
Though the headline was "Kiev alligators trained in Poland" - typical, I thought! Peregrine Took Mar 2014 #3
Gives special meaning Token Republican Mar 2014 #16
I hope whatever his fears/concerns are that he comes to terms with the fact that no one wants okaawhatever Mar 2014 #7
Perhaps Putin needs to add some new advisors as well. amandabeech Mar 2014 #9
From what i've read, he's surrounded by people who only tell him what he thinks they want to okaawhatever Mar 2014 #10
Perhaps Medvedev needs to have a heart to heart with Putin. amandabeech Mar 2014 #15
Something has been going on with the Putin/Medvedev relationship. Here's a short article okaawhatever Mar 2014 #17
Interesting read. Thanks. nt EmilyAnne Mar 2014 #19
Thanks for posting. amandabeech Mar 2014 #22
Is he going to invade Poland too now? hobbit709 Mar 2014 #11
That would be a grave mistake, and I can't believe that he would do it. amandabeech Mar 2014 #13
If Poland is invaded by a non-NATO country all NATO members have to defend them. It's not a okaawhatever Mar 2014 #23
Unfortunately, I think that Frau Merkel would try to amandabeech Mar 2014 #24
If a CIA black site costs $15 mil, I wonder how much training would cost (Ex-IDF does it for free?) jakeXT Mar 2014 #12
I have read of Israelis with Ukrainian backgrounds returning to the Maidan. amandabeech Mar 2014 #14
Hitler could very well be a top 10 in DU word cloud. I wouldn't be worried if I were you Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #20
 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
5. Angela Merkel may very well be right about Putin's mental health.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 09:01 PM
Mar 2014

I just wonder how much of this Russians actually believe.

If it gets worse, maybe someone is going to have to step in.

I wonder what provisions the Russian Constitution contains for removing a President who become insane during his term of office?

Maybe Medvedev has a team of discreet lawyers who are making a case. In the past Medvedev sounded like a sane person who was living in the early 21st century.

EmilyAnne

(2,769 posts)
6. The Orthodox church is holding Putin's hand.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 09:33 PM
Mar 2014

At this point, to condemn Putin would be to condemn God, at least according to the Patriarch.

The beliefs about homosexuality being a weapon sent from from the West, about pretty much every single "evil" thing coming from the West, were things that I heard so often while living in Russia.
And all such conversations were had with reasonable, educated, relatively wealthy city dwellers.

In my utterly subjective opinion based on my time in Russia, the Russian people either believe these things or are afraid to speak against them.
There is a lot of complex psychological things at play here, too. In particular with the way Russian people believe they are perceived by the rest of the world. It makes them defensive and quite unified.
Also remember that, unlike the United States, in Russia there really is only one game in town when it comes to religion.
If almost every Christian in the United States belonged to the exact same denomination, we would be much more unified behind a leader that had been anointed by that same denomination.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
8. Some commentators have suggested that Russians are extremely sensitive
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 10:40 PM
Mar 2014

to criticism from the outside to the point of being a little paranoid.

I used to be very involved in figure skating here in the U.S. There are many Russian coaches in larger, and some smaller, U.S. cities. Some of them were very nice; others thought that only Russia and Russians deserved to live on the planet. Many of them thought nothing of petty theft or dishonesty. But none of them really "got it" about the U.S. and how people think here. I had a Ukrainian/Russian mix roommate for a while. Socially he was living in the '50s. He was so hopeless that I couldn't get mad at him, but I did counsel him on how to behave at work so as not to get into trouble with HR. He laughed at me, and then tried to get me to pay him $20 a month to keep him from stopping the washer and dryer when I was using them. The landlord stepped in then. I have been thinking of him lately, but not enough to get back into contact with him. So I can believe your comments on Russian society.

I've traveled some to western Europe, lived with a French exchange student and have met many western Europeans and Brits living in the NYC and DC areas. The gap in socially acceptable behavior was not nearly as great, and what gaps developed were managed civilly.

Your point about the problems of a single dominant religion taken seriously is interesting. Perhaps that is some of the problem with strong Muslim countries, as well--it's not all the religion, but the fact that everyone believes the same thing. I have read that the Russian Orthodox Church was instrumental in pushing the law that excludes Roman Catholicism and the many varieties of Protestants from seeking converts in Russia.

Thanks for replying!

EmilyAnne

(2,769 posts)
18. "...tried to get me to pay him $20 a month to keep him from stopping the washer and dryer" OMG!
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:05 AM
Mar 2014

One of my Business English students in Russia had visited the United States.
He told me that, by far, the most amazing thing he saw here was a laundromat!
He said he took pictures inside, came back to Russia and shocked his friends and family with his report on the laundromat.
I asked him what was so strange about a laundromat and he said that such a thing was completely impossible in Russia.
That there would be total chaos. People would take each others clothes out, steal or break the machines, etc. That five minutes after the grand opening the whole place would be shut down.

I just did a search through the journal I kept while living there because I knew I had written about this laundromat story.
Thanks for jogging my memory with the story about your roommate!
Too funny.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
21. Thanks for letting me know that I'm not the only victim
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:16 AM
Mar 2014

of Russian laundry craziness!

Have a good evening.

Peregrine Took

(7,415 posts)
3. Though the headline was "Kiev alligators trained in Poland" - typical, I thought!
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 08:54 PM
Mar 2014

Insideous animal cruelty, too!

okaawhatever

(9,462 posts)
7. I hope whatever his fears/concerns are that he comes to terms with the fact that no one wants
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 09:52 PM
Mar 2014

military action. I think it's kind of ridiculous to assume they were all trained considering they didn't even resist when the Russians took over some of Crimea. I don't know a SF person in the world who would let that happen.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
9. Perhaps Putin needs to add some new advisors as well.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 10:43 PM
Mar 2014

Group think can make a bad situation much worse. We have only to recall the shrub to see the problems of an uninformed and uninterested president surrounded by groupthink to see what bad results can occur.

okaawhatever

(9,462 posts)
10. From what i've read, he's surrounded by people who only tell him what he thinks they want to
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 10:47 PM
Mar 2014

hear. His advisers are different now, not the same people from his first term. That would explain a lot.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
15. Perhaps Medvedev needs to have a heart to heart with Putin.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:41 PM
Mar 2014

Merkel has floated the idea that international monitors could go to Crimea to make sure that ethnic Russians were being treated well and replace the "militias."

It would be a way out if Putin could be persuaded to go for it.

okaawhatever

(9,462 posts)
17. Something has been going on with the Putin/Medvedev relationship. Here's a short article
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:54 PM
Mar 2014

from NPR about it. Medvedev is being set up to take a fall it seems like. The question is, who is trying to direct policy for Russia because it seems someone is trying to get rid of Putin and after the Crimea move it seems like someone is behind the curtain pulling levers.

Once Championed By Putin, Medvedev Falls Precipitously Out Of Favor

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev appears increasingly isolated from the centers of power surrounding President Vladimir Putin.

Analysts say Medvedev is the target of a campaign to wreck his reputation and drive him from office. It's a risky situation for the former president, who was once regarded as Putin's partner.

The attacks have come from many directions. One of the harshest was an anonymous, documentary-style film that was posted on the Internet in January.

The film, Game at Giveaway, accuses Medvedev of betraying Russia's national interest. It refers to the Medvedev's decision as president not to oppose the U.N. resolution that authorized NATO military action in Libya.

Why, the announcer asks, did Medvedev give away all of Russia's interests in Libya, its military and civilian contracts, and its friendly relations with Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi?

Why, he asks, did Medvedev take away the gains made by Putin and give them to Russia's main rival, the West?

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/02/175917448/once-championed-by-putin-medvedev-falls-precipitously-out-of-favor
 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
22. Thanks for posting.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:25 AM
Mar 2014

I thought that Medvedev had some possibilities. He didn't seem like the standard Stalin-clone post-Soviet like Putin, but someone who wanted to move Russia a bit into modern normalcy. He also seemed like he wouldn't fit in with a Village People cover band--unlike Putin. Not that I had anything against the Village People.

Perhaps he might like to retire to a nice teaching position at one of our universities before he drinks the polonium.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
13. That would be a grave mistake, and I can't believe that he would do it.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:35 PM
Mar 2014

But I can understand how the Poles feel.

The history isn't good. There was a long period in which there was no Poland on the European map. Russia, Germany (Prussia) and Austria-Hungary carved it up I think twice between 1700 or so and WWI. Poland reappeared after WWI, but WWII in Europe started when Hitler invaded Poland from the west and a few days later the Soviet Union (Russia) invaded Poland from the east.

After WWII, Poland reappeared on the map, but its boundaries were moved to the west a couple of hundred miles.

Poland abuts the Kaliningrad district of Russia which is the old East Prussia, but Kaliningrad is cut off from the rest of Russia, and as I understand it, is overrun with the Russian mafia. Poland does border Belarus, which is a vassal state of Russia with an old-fashioned dictator in charge, and Ukraine. If Russia moves at all Poland becomes very nervous.

Poland is a member of NATO, and although NATO does not want to get into a war with Russia, I have a hard time believing that if Poland were invaded NATO would not fight. Even the Germans, who have strong commercial ties with Russia and get a large percentage of their oil and gas from Russia would probably feel threatened.



okaawhatever

(9,462 posts)
23. If Poland is invaded by a non-NATO country all NATO members have to defend them. It's not a
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:27 AM
Mar 2014

choice. That's why Putin desperately wants to break NATO.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
24. Unfortunately, I think that Frau Merkel would try to
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:31 AM
Mar 2014

negotiate until Putin walked into her office in Berlin.

I understand what you're saying, though.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
12. If a CIA black site costs $15 mil, I wonder how much training would cost (Ex-IDF does it for free?)
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 10:56 PM
Mar 2014

Report: CIA Paid Poland for Black Site

CIA officials paid Polish intelligence $15 million for use of secret prison, says Washington Post

Read more: Poland: Debate Over CIA Black Sites Reignited by Fresh Report | TIME.com http://swampland.time.com/2014/01/24/report-cia-paid-poland-for-black-site/



The ex-Israeli soldier who led a Kiev fighting unit
'Delta' has headed 'the Blue Helmets of Maidan' of 40 men and women - including several IDF veterans - in violent clashes with government forces.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577114


 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
14. I have read of Israelis with Ukrainian backgrounds returning to the Maidan.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:38 PM
Mar 2014

Sort of throws a wet towel on reports that the current Ukrainian government is run by Nazis.

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