Sid

Not "question your beliefs."

Your belief is wrong. Yes, I get why he gentled that, however...please. We've learned a thing or two since the Bronze Age.

I'm with you Treant. My thoughts exactly.

It's destructive to continue tolerating these flat out falsehoods.

Flat out DANGEROUS falsehoods!

He stated the facts and made it very plain the the 6000/10,000 year old earth is ludicrous and that if they believed such a thing they should question their entire belief system not just that one part... and he just did it elegantly. By saying you should question your beliefs in this context, it's pretty clear to me he was talking about the whole ball of wax. For fundies that's about as close as you can get. Getting them to think without having their head explode isn't easy. Yes, we've learned a few things since the Bronze age as a civilization, but individually not everyone. Many of them don't even know what the Bronze age is and if they do they don't see the significance.

Honestly, I think he kicked their asses.

I guess which post you choose for the comments makes all the difference.

Their god says. If their god says, the SKY is green, than by golly...its Green. IF their god says the earth is two days old...than Happy freaking brithday to the earth!

Yes, some people are nuts.

it's what the lame republican supporting preachers are saying.
No basis is fact or literature. No where in the bible does it say how old the earth is.

I'm not defending ANY religion, just trying to place the blame where it belongs.

I live among the nuts, there's lots of them here...

He calculated it from all the "begats".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

Ham: Nothing. The bible was written by God.

Nye: Proof.

- not an exact quote but it get's the point across.

God Didn't physically write the bible... There are no "copywritten by God" ©147.ad. People say, yes, but God Chose people to write his words into the bible. Really? He is so powerful that he had to have men do it? He couldn't like zap a book into existence? He/She can make a tree, a rock, an Ocean, create life itself, but can not put a book together? AND... HAVE to filter words though a man's brain to do it... A human who is fallible and makes mistakes. There are stories of monks hand printing pages over and over again...(Wonders how many of those pages were ripped up or wadded up cause there were no erasers?)

he's a "scientific materialist!"

If there's a creator who made everything, what difference does it make when he made it?

If the central tenet of your belief is that a book is divinely inspired and infallible, then there can be nothing in it that is wrong. So, you spend your energy thinking of ways to explain away the fallacies. So, if your book says the earth was created in 7 days then, by God (pun intended), the earth was created in 7 freaking days! If the book clearly shows the ancestral line from the first man to King David and then, in extension, to Jesus - you have to explain that as meaning that the earth can't be more than 10,000 years old.

More energy and time is spent in protecting these people from cognitive dissonance than would be spent in dealing with the dissonance in the first place.

I may quote this elsewhere. And humorous too!

Well, thank you!

a state of predation (death) prior to the Fall invalidates the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Without the Fall, you have nothing to rest the atonement on. Ham an others are right that the truth is a direct assault on the Paulian interpretation of Jesus.

Ham wants to force me to make a decision. My decision is on the side of science. There was no atonement for original sin. At best Christianity is a flawed moral code.

religions, Christianity is the only one where the doctrine of original sin exists. Such an idea simply cannot be found in Judaism or Islam - both reject original sin as nominal heresy.

Christianity, with the trinitarian doctrine, is also unique among the big three; both Judaism and Islam have strict definitions of monotheism, and "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" isn't one of them. Indeed, in Islam, it's considered blasphemy (shirk - assigning partners to God) and in Judaism, saying a human being is God is blasphemy as well.

There were triune deities in a good many Mediterranean religions, and I'm pretty sure that's where the trinitarian doctrine comes from; a way to reconcile the strict monotheism seen in Judaism with the idea that Jesus himself was God - Greco-Roman religions (and other ancient religions) were chock full o' demi-gods.

Christian doctrine represents the last great creation of Antiquity; the successful transmission of ancient religious ideas floating around the Mediterranean world and incorporated into a new religion with new meanings. After all, one of the unofficial titles of the Pope is Pontifex Maximus - the very title of the High Priest of the College of Pontiffs, the most important position in the ancient Roman religion.

the true age of the Earth.

If one believes that a divine being created the Earth, why is it so hard to believe that it was created with a history already in place.

In fact I would argue that you can't prove that the universe didn't just pop into existence 10 minutes ago in its current state.

But is still requires a very slightly open mind to accept that I suppose.

Plenty of theists seem to believe that the seamless evidence for an old Earth and Universe was put there by the creator as a "test of faith".

about how their creator thinks and operates.

There could be plenty of reasons for such a world to exist that have nothing to do with divine deception or tests of faith.

I can't think of any right offhand, evidently you have given this question more thought than I have.

It just doesn't make sense to me that someone would be willing to believe in something as incredible as an all powerful being that created the universe - but then assumes that they know the reason that the all powerful being has for everything that was created.

My point was that if I were to believe in a vastly superior being that created the universe, I would also believe that there are plenty of things that I could never understand about how the universe works.

Ive noticed these people get really angry if you challenge their world view.

according to the 'chemtrails are real' crowd.

Sid

Anyone? Bueller?

to tell fundies that their sacred and deeply held beliefs are dead wrong, without offending their delicate sensibilities. Because, goodness knows, that would just make the mean ol' atheists look terrible.

The age of the earth is not a matter of opinion. The age of the earth is established science. It is not up for debate. One side is correct and the other side is pathetic.

And therein lies the nature of faith.

(sigh)

state plainly that God does not reckon time as we do. I don't remember the exact words or context at the moment, but it's something like "My time is not your time." There is also a reference to something like a thousand years being as one day to "me" (meaning to God). If a thousand--a number used to people who could barely conceive of a thousand--why not several million.

I guess I am trying to say that, even going by a literal interpretation of the Bible, one could take a statement like that and apply it to the Genesis creation story. Also, the Bible is full of metaphor and simile, why not a time metaphor? The essential point for a believer is God's involvement in creation, not how he chose to bring it about or how long it took.

So, perhaps it is not God who is at fault, but pastors who simply will not let go of an erroneous interpretation, perhaps because people might start to think that, if they got that wrong, maybe they have other things wrong as well.

I know only the Pope claims infallibility, and only when speaking on a limited range of things, but these self-proclaimed ministers sure seem to act as though they are also infallible, and about all topics, to boot.

I also get that when you have any given viewpoint based on faith and belief that the Bible is divinely inspired, all of the rest of it is open to interpretation. Changing someone's interpretation is as nearly impossible as convincing someone that it is time for our society to move past this mythology that is older than civilization. If the first and final argument is "I believe because I believe," there is little room for conversation.

I would suggest he is God.

that they never reasoned themselves into to begin with.

Fall Creek Falls Sate Park in Tennessee has several outstanding waterfalls. A sign near an overlook of a rocky gorge explained the geology of the place, and someone had scratched out millions of years in the narrative.

I used to live about an hour from it.

I live in Chicago's western suburbs and have taken the 9-hour drive there several times. Besides Fall Creek Falls State Park, Virgin Falls, Burgess Falls, and Ozone Falls are my favorites in middle Tennessee. Burgess Falls is a 3/4-mile hike to a very impressive waterfall, and Ozone Falls (long drop from a high cliff) is very easy to visit (short hike just off I-40). Virgin Falls (when the water is flowing well) is among the most beautiful waterfall/settings among the hundreds I've seen, but it's in a remote location 4 miles from the nearest trailhead.

North Carolina and Georgia also have many gorgeous waterfalls.

You are right about it as well. I sometimes wonder why I moved back to Iowa.

Very unique place, and fun to walk around the multi-level slabs of rock down by the river. I was there in mid-March last year, and kayakers were shooting the rapids.

One good thing about Iowa is it's closer to the Black Hills and the Rockies!

year 2050 there will be world wide more non believers than believers.

when it comes to the Fundies/Evangelicals/Anti-science crowd is why would God (if there is such a thing) create scientists and give them the knowledge they have to determine the things they do if they are going to be wrong about it? That flies in the face of their belief that God can do no wrong... so if God could do no wrong, how is it he created these scientists that are all wrong about the age of the earth and man? How can scientists be wrong about the fact that baby Jesus didn't have a pet dinosaur? How can history be wrong that there were religions that pre-date Christianity? Is their argument that they're all following the path of Satan? And when did Satan fall out of favor for Scientists? You'd think to hear fundies talk that Scientists are the new Satan...

That and many other reasons is why I am an atheist...

Whenever they discover something that does not fit into their Darwinian world view, it is immediately hidden. They shut digs down all the time when they find bunny rabbits with T-Rexs.

Other option is that Lucifer buried false evidence to confuse believers.

Other option is that God started the simulation with evidence of age already in place. Why would he do this? To test our faith silly.

public policy.