General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGood science is good. Poorly designed science is bad.
Last edited Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:28 AM - Edit history (4)
Three points to keep in mind:
The practice of science is subject to confirmation bias.
Science funded by corporations or others with a vested interest in the results must be examined especially carefully. (And even then, you might not be getting the full picture. For example, some corporations make paid scientific consultants sign secrecy agreements. The results only get released if the corporation chooses to release them.)
Science decoupled from morality leads to things like the atomic bomb. And even to global warming.
Here's an interesting essay about confirmation bias:
SCIENTIFIC PRIDE AND PREJUDICE:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/opinion/sunday/scientific-pride-and-prejudice.html?_r=0
SCIENCE is in crisis, just when we need it most. Two years ago, C. Glenn Begley and Lee M. Ellis reported in Nature that they were able to replicate only six out of 53 landmark cancer studies. Scientists now worry that many published scientific results are simply not true. The natural sciences often offer themselves as a model to other disciplines. But this time science might look for help to the humanities, and to literary criticism in particular.
A major root of the crisis is selective use of data. Scientists, eager to make striking new claims, focus only on evidence that supports their preconceptions. Psychologists call this confirmation bias: We seek out information that confirms what we already believe. We each begin probably with a little bias, as Jane Austen writes in Persuasion, and upon that bias build every circumstance in favor of it.
SNIP
But it would be wrong to say that the ideal scholar is somehow unbiased or dispassionate. In my freshman physics class at Caltech, David Goodstein, who later became vice provost of the university, showed us Robert Millikans lab notebooks for his famed 1909 oil drop experiment with Harvey Fletcher, which first established the electric charge of the electron.
The notebooks showed many fits and starts and many results that were obviously wrong, but as they progressed, the results got cleaner, and Millikan could not help but include comments such as Best yet Beauty Publish. In other words, Millikan excluded the data that seemed erroneous and included data that he liked, embracing his own confirmation bias.
Mr. Goodsteins point was that the textbook scientific method of dispassionately testing a hypothesis is not how science really works. We often have a clear idea of what we want the results to be before we run an experiment. We freshman physics students found this a bit hard to take. What Mr. Goodstein was trying to teach us was that science as a lived, human process is different from our preconception of it. He was trying to give us a glimpse of self-understanding, a moment of self-doubt.
SNIP
ON EDIT:
Here is a Scientific American article related to the second point. Most people know that corporations fund research, either through in-house studies or studies conducted by paid consultants. What is less known is that corporations can also prevent truly independent researchers from publishing studies using their patented products (e.g., GMO seeds).
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-seed-companies-control-gm-crop-research/
Unfortunately, it is impossible to verify that genetically modified crops perform as advertised. That is because agritech companies have given themselves veto power over the work of independent researchers.
To purchase genetically modified seeds, a customer must sign an agreement that limits what can be done with them. (If you have installed software recently, you will recognize the concept of the end-user agreement.) Agreements are considered necessary to protect a companys intellectual property, and they justifiably preclude the replication of the genetic enhancements that make the seeds unique. But agritech companies such as Monsanto, Pioneer and Syngenta go further. For a decade their user agreements have explicitly forbidden the use of the seeds for any independent research. Under the threat of litigation, scientists cannot test a seed to explore the different conditions under which it thrives or fails. They cannot compare seeds from one company against those from another company. And perhaps most important, they cannot examine whether the genetically modified crops lead to unintended environmental side effects.
Research on genetically modified seeds is still published, of course. But only studies that the seed companies have approved ever see the light of a peer-reviewed journal. In a number of cases, experiments that had the implicit go-ahead from the seed company were later blocked from publication because the results were not flattering. It is important to understand that it is not always simply a matter of blanket denial of all research requests, which is bad enough, wrote Elson J. Shields, an entomologist at Cornell University, in a letter to an official at the Environmental Protection Agency (the body tasked with regulating the environmental consequences of genetically modified crops), but selective denials and permissions based on industry perceptions of how friendly or hostile a particular scientist may be toward [seed-enhancement] technology.
Drew Richards
(1,558 posts)And until GOOD Science can be replicated by Independent Means...the Jury is still out on some forms of GMO's.
This is not to say all GMO is bad or all GMO is good...
But when Monsanto refuses to allow long term studies in the US on their products, corn, wheat, sugar beats ect...there is a real problem...
All we get are unverified studies done in Europe claiming GMO corn and wheat products to be specific, are potentially deadly in 10% of the population that consumes it...
Yes I know that figure is high...and Mice are not exact markers for humans...but when 10% of mice develop liver and pancreatic cancers and cysts from eating them aqs well as kidney desease...that bothers me.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)who sign secrecy agreements, and don't publish without permission of Monsanto.
What could possibly be wrong with that?
Drew Richards
(1,558 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)About Those Industry Funded GMO Studies . . .
http://realfoodorg.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/about-those-industry-funded-gmo-studies/
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)with Monsanto. It doesn't matter whether their study funding comes from Monsanto or not. Monsanto controls the seeds.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-seed-companies-control-gm-crop-research/
Unfortunately, it is impossible to verify that genetically modified crops perform as advertised. That is because agritech companies have given themselves veto power over the work of independent researchers.
To purchase genetically modified seeds, a customer must sign an agreement that limits what can be done with them. (If you have installed software recently, you will recognize the concept of the end-user agreement.) Agreements are considered necessary to protect a companys intellectual property, and they justifiably preclude the replication of the genetic enhancements that make the seeds unique. But agritech companies such as Monsanto, Pioneer and Syngenta go further. For a decade their user agreements have explicitly forbidden the use of the seeds for any independent research. Under the threat of litigation, scientists cannot test a seed to explore the different conditions under which it thrives or fails. They cannot compare seeds from one company against those from another company. And perhaps most important, they cannot examine whether the genetically modified crops lead to unintended environmental side effects.
Research on genetically modified seeds is still published, of course. But only studies that the seed companies have approved ever see the light of a peer-reviewed journal. In a number of cases, experiments that had the implicit go-ahead from the seed company were later blocked from publication because the results were not flattering. It is important to understand that it is not always simply a matter of blanket denial of all research requests, which is bad enough, wrote Elson J. Shields, an entomologist at Cornell University, in a letter to an official at the Environmental Protection Agency (the body tasked with regulating the environmental consequences of genetically modified crops), but selective denials and permissions based on industry perceptions of how friendly or hostile a particular scientist may be toward [seed-enhancement] technology.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)It also ignores what I posted, as if what I posted didn't exist. Hmm.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Cha
(297,297 posts)around here.
We've been fighting on our Island just to get them to reveal the toxins they use.. we won in spite of the mayor vetoing. Now, the GMO Co are suing. Fuck them.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)I'd argue it's not really science.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)Just wait for the "brigade" to show up and accuse us of being antiscientific woomeisters.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)You don't really care about confirmation bias. You just want to use it as a weapon.
Yes, it is sad.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Also, if you were serious about any of this, you're clear gang sign posts would not be in such evidence.
You don't even try to hide your lack of giving a shit.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Cha
(297,297 posts)ROFL
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)I don't trust all people or institutions engaged in "science", especially where there are conflicts of interest, few corrective mechanisms in place, and potential major impacts on public policy.
I'm also not too impressed with DU's self styled "scientific materialist" brigade and their bullying behavior.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)petronius
(26,602 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Chathamization
(1,638 posts)themselves in the flag and start shouting about patriotism. Not all scientists and not everything stamped with "science" is infallible, and we do ourselves a disservice whenever we turn off our critical thinking skills. It doesn't seem very scientific to simply dismiss any evidence presented with no more than an ad hominem attack.
Further evidence for why we shouldn't uncritically accept everything stamped as science:
http://www.thewire.com/technology/2014/03/more-computer-generated-nonsense-papers-pulled-science-journals/358735/
This isn't to say that there aren't people out there attacking good science with their own crazy ideas. But it's possible to both be against bad science and bad criticism of science.
Cha
(297,297 posts)someone disagrees. How DARE we.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Science itself works to fight that. It's never perfect. Still, I'm wondering why you posted this today. After all, I've noted that you went with confirmation bias in order to support a supposed scientific review that is nothing but propaganda, after one looks at it. That seems like clear confirmation bias. I'm hoping that you can admit that.
I really am, because I used to like you, but I can no longer trust you.
And in case you need a reminder of your very real confirmation bias:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1142&pid=11616
Yes, this "review" has been shown to be invalid in so many ways, yet I'm still waiting for you to be honest about it.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)the premise.
"Science is subject to confirmation bias."
No it isn't, people are subject to confirmation bias, the scientific method was designed to reduce and eliminate confirmation bias through peer review, reproducing experiments, etc.
As far as the second paragraph, which has nothing to do with the statement you made above it, that's an argument for corporate regulation and accountability to open up all research to peer review.
I also don't see what the article has to do with anything, what crisis in science? Most research published in scientific journals is crap, and its exposed as crap, by using science! OMG!
Scientists are people, why are other people shocked by this?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Independent testing and falsification exist to check confirmation bias, and are largely what separate science from pseudoscience.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)There isn't a bright line separating science and pseudoscience. Practitioners of each are subject to the errors produced by confirmation bias.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/opinion/sunday/scientific-pride-and-prejudice.html?_r=0
But it would be wrong to say that the ideal scholar is somehow unbiased or dispassionate. In my freshman physics class at Caltech, David Goodstein, who later became vice provost of the university, showed us Robert Millikans lab notebooks for his famed 1909 oil drop experiment with Harvey Fletcher, which first established the electric charge of the electron.
The notebooks showed many fits and starts and many results that were obviously wrong, but as they progressed, the results got cleaner, and Millikan could not help but include comments such as Best yet Beauty Publish. In other words, Millikan excluded the data that seemed erroneous and included data that he liked, embracing his own confirmation bias.
Mr. Goodsteins point was that the textbook scientific method of dispassionately testing a hypothesis is not how science really works. We often have a clear idea of what we want the results to be before we run an experiment. We freshman physics students found this a bit hard to take. What Mr. Goodstein was trying to teach us was that science as a lived, human process is different from our preconception of it. He was trying to give us a glimpse of self-understanding, a moment of self-doubt.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Yep! It's time for fun!
LostOne4Ever
(9,289 posts)In fact, there are quite a few lines. Falsifiability comes to mind almost instantly. Starting with a conclusion and searching for evidence being another. Here they are in detail:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pseudoscience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience
http://www.ithaca.edu/beins/methods/materials/char-pseudo.htm
I have not looked through but about 10 or so of the 88 pages of the notebook from your article but there are scientific reasons to exclude data beyond "confirmation bias." For instance, if you discover some sort of system error in the experiment and can show that it was influencing your data you USUALLY will want to drop that data and try again. This has nothing to do with confirmation bias.
Generally though when one refers to confirmation bias one is referring to people only counting evidence "confirms" their pre-existing conclusions and ignoring evidence to the contrary. Which is a bit different from thinking that there might be a problem with ones data because the variance from the average is greater than 2 standard deviations or because your precision is piss poor. Either way, science at least tries to reproduce said experiments to prove their verifiability and employs a variety of requirements to minimize this problem.
IOW, at least science does try to minimize confirmation bias as opposed to openly embracing it like pseudoscience does.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Still, confirmation can also be seen in a statement that attacks "corporate science," while also ignoring that there is a great deal of independent science occurring.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)school understanding of science, they latch onto ONE paper or study done, the scientists in question may tentatively have included a conclusion or two, and the headlines from these reporters are "OMG! Revolutionary!!!!!!1111!!!!!".
Then, a few months later, when the study or paper was examined by others, and found to NOT be like that, people are all like "why does science change its mind?" as if it were a sapient being.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)One sees that in play at DU, quite frequently. A study which supports a popular preconceived notion will get massive play, and tons of "likes." The story that shows the study to be off base will mostly be ignored.
I know it happens everywhere else, too. But...
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)add to it people's misconceptions as to what is and what is not, the scientific method, and you just have a big pile a crap to wade through just to get to the point.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Science is just an abstract concept unless it is put into practice.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Do you have anything to counter what I wrote, or are you just going to reword my points?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/opinion/sunday/scientific-pride-and-prejudice.html?_r=0
But it would be wrong to say that the ideal scholar is somehow unbiased or dispassionate. In my freshman physics class at Caltech, David Goodstein, who later became vice provost of the university, showed us Robert Millikans lab notebooks for his famed 1909 oil drop experiment with Harvey Fletcher, which first established the electric charge of the electron.
The notebooks showed many fits and starts and many results that were obviously wrong, but as they progressed, the results got cleaner, and Millikan could not help but include comments such as Best yet Beauty Publish. In other words, Millikan excluded the data that seemed erroneous and included data that he liked, embracing his own confirmation bias.
Mr. Goodsteins point was that the textbook scientific method of dispassionately testing a hypothesis is not how science really works. We often have a clear idea of what we want the results to be before we run an experiment. We freshman physics students found this a bit hard to take. What Mr. Goodstein was trying to teach us was that science as a lived, human process is different from our preconception of it. He was trying to give us a glimpse of self-understanding, a moment of self-doubt.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)textbook "scientific method" says nothing of the sort, as a matter of good practice in scientific rigor, you are supposed to practice objectivity, etc. but, because we are people, that ends up failing most of the time. Hence the need for the scientific method.
Johonny
(20,851 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)SCIENCE is in crisis, just when we need it most. Two years ago, C. Glenn Begley and Lee M. Ellis reported in Nature that they were able to replicate only six out of 53 landmark cancer studies. Scientists now worry that many published scientific results are simply not true. The natural sciences often offer themselves as a model to other disciplines. But this time science might look for help to the humanities, and to literary criticism in particular.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Second, repeating stuff from the OP is just repeating stuff. It really isn't a way to discuss anything.
Also, your clear confirmation bias has been shown on this very thread. Thus, why do you care?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Just to make it easier on you.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)You do think you're smarter than others.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)adirondacker
(2,921 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The problem is that preclinical research conducted by universities and medical research establishments, much of it government funded, could not be reproduced when corporation in the biotech or pharmaceutical industries attempted to base new therapeutic techniques and drugs on the research.
This indicates to me that --
- there is a large amount of government funded research that is useless, since no one finds out that it is irreproducible by attempting to make use of it,
- the existing mechanisms for evaluating publishable research via peer review are not weeding out bad science, and
- when results are found to be irreproducible they are in most case never retracted unless strong evidence of deliberate fraud is found.
Even when fraud is found, in many cases the principle investigators get away with only a slap on the wrist due to universities and institutions reluctance to have their names associated with it. And very rarely is the principle investigators tenure revoked.
The paper by C. Glenn Begley & Lee M. Ellis is "Drug development: Raise standards for preclinical cancer research" and is freely available from Nature at http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v483/n7391/full/483531a.html
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,289 posts)Nearly everything done by humans is subject to confirmation bias. The scientific method does its best to minimize this. This is why the vast majority of experiments include a null hypothesis which is also tested. Thus the cherry picking is minimized. Peer review and reproducibility further minimize this problem.
If you are wanting the word of god himself, then you are barking up the wrong tree. Science is done by humans and subject to human error, equipment error, etc... This is why we often include calculation on possible error. This combined with the scientific method means that science is self correcting and about the most reliable method of obtaining knowledge known to man.
This is why there is this thing called peer review and reproducibility...
Science is a tool. How one uses it is up to the individual. You wouldn't say driving decoupled morality from driving leads to things like car wrecks would you? Or Decoupling morality from screwdrivers leads to bombs?
As for the article, science does not need to look to the humanities. The humanities are just as filled if not more filled with confirmation bias as any science.
So does science. Only its roots go back to the scientific revolution as opposed to the 1960's...
Actually, yes it is.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Unfortunately, even basic science is sometimes subject to poor interpretation by bad actors, depending on the context. Like, for example, a study on the brain activity of mice just before death was used by so-called "skeptic" materialists to claim that this was solid, undeniable proof that all near-death experiences in humans were nothing more than chemical misfires.
And let's not get started on the bullshit that climate deniers, and doomers, too, try to pull whenever climate scientists admit that their calculations were incorrect on something, particularly if something turns out not to be quite as bad as they thought(doomers will claim that they're softpedaling or "minimizing" climate change, deniers will claim that it's proof of a supposed "hoax" .
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)It's never, ever woo that corrects bad science. Woo, like religion, isn't self-correcting.
Sid