K & R

snip from the article:

It has been claimed that the role of fascists in the demonstrations has been exaggerated by Russian propaganda to justify Vladimir Putin's manoeuvres in Crimea. The reality is alarming enough to need no exaggeration. Activists report that the far right made up around a third of the protesters, but they were decisive in armed confrontations with the police.

Fascist gangs now patrol the streets. But they are also in Kiev's corridors of power. The far right Svoboda party, whose leader has denounced the "criminal activities" of "organised Jewry" and which was condemned by the European parliament for its "racist and antisemitic views", has five ministerial posts in the new government, including deputy prime minister and prosecutor general. The leader of the even more extreme Right Sector, at the heart of the street violence, is now Ukraine's deputy national security chief.

Neo-Nazis in office is a first in post-war Europe. But this is the unelected government now backed by the US and EU. And in a contemptuous rebuff to the ordinary Ukrainians who protested against corruption and hoped for real change, the new administration has appointed two billionaire oligarchs – one who runs his business from Switzerland – to be the new governors of the eastern cities of Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk. Meanwhile, the IMF is preparing an eye-watering austerity plan for the tanking Ukrainian economy which can only swell poverty and unemployment.

The fruit of decades of failed ideology and economic weakness which was the fruit of backlash from the industrial age which was the fruit of steam power.

So really we should blame British man Thomas Savery, inventor of the first crude steam engine, for Russia's 2014 invasion of Crimea in Ukraine.

"Which was the fruit of USSR collapse"...

So the people of the former USSR, at a moment when they were the most vulnerable, watched as the Worst of the West(tm) came in, scooped up their assets and left them cold and hungry. I'd be pissed.

My neighbors are Russian who immigrated to the US prior to the collapse. To hear Sergei and his wife tell stories of standing in line for hours to get groceries and toilet paper makes think they were also cold and hungry before the collapse.

Kilgore

Why eyes were cast our way I'll never know.

they were scooped up by Russians eager to become robber barons. Yes, the system that allowed that was set up on the advice of western economists, but it's Russians that did it.

As an engine, its efficiency was 0%.

US meddling.

"In the case of Crimea, which was only transferred to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev in the 1950s, that is clearly true for the Russian majority. And contrary to undertakings given at the time, the US and its allies have since relentlessly expanded Nato up to Russia's borders, incorporating nine former Warsaw Pact states and three former Soviet republics into what is effectively an anti-Russian military alliance in Europe. The European association agreement which provoked the Ukrainian crisis also included clauses to integrate Ukraine into the EU defence structure."


Whats pissing off the Western 'leaders' is that Putin can see right through them, calls them on it, and they don't like it one little bit.

The bad-mouthing started with the Soochi Olympics and the dreadful toothpaste bomb warnings, and the stray dogs...

Putin is a giant compared to the US and the EU banksters, and they live in fear of him wrecking their raping and pillaging program.

How are they gonna frack the hell out of Ukraine with that bear sitting there?

"Putin is a giant compared to the US and the EU banksters"

"How are they gonna frack the hell out of Ukraine with that bear sitting there?"

Wait and see, Putin has backed himself into a corner. The Russian people are against his faux interventionism and the Russian parliament are soon to vote down his imperialist incursions into Crimea.

Shit, Russia would love to have US fracking technology, which isn't being exported for reasons of geopolitical conquest.

This is a cliche, yes, but it applies here: Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

The gatekeepers are frantically swimming against the tide to try to sell a revisionist narrative that says the US State Dept. wasn't the prime mover in the mess in Ukraine/Crimea.

Putin is painting Obama into a corner. It is what it is. And I'm not saying it because I hate Obama or that I wish I could have Putin's babies.

The facts of the situation are being stated, consistently, across various sources, all over the internet. And those who take issue nearly always do it with some throw-away line like, "This is all BS. n/t", or they attack the MESSENGER or the SOURCE.

I would like to see someone address the message for a change. For example, does Russia, per treaty have a right to 25,000 troops in Crimea, 16,000 of which have been there for some 15 years?

http://rt.com/news/russian-troops-crimea-ukraine-816/

Yes, it's RT. Where would one go to find this side of the story? Do you really think our supine media is going to print it?

And I posted this, by Pepe Escobar, yesterday, and it sank like a rock. As an added bonus, Escobar describes the events with acerbic wit, which we could all use a little more of these days.

Spring Fails in Ukranian Plunderland

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37859.htm

I'll just say

The pro-Putin parties are going to get their asses kicked in the upcoming Ukrainian elections, because the prospect of Russian tanks rolling through the country just became a whole lot more plausible.

Ukraine will become firmly a pro-EU, pro-US country. It will join NATO.

Furthermore, the Baltic Republics and Poland will also be more outwardly confrontational towards Russia and insist upon NATO tripwire forces being deployed to deter Russian aggression.

And, he's also spurred Europe to wean themselves off of Russia's petroleum supplies that much faster.

And, he's turned Russia into a pariah state with his only tacit allies being those paragons of human rights, China and Syria.

And his economy is going to suffer. Badly.

And what did Putin win? The ability to use naval bases he already had the right to use.

consideration whatsoever.

The fact that the region is in Russia's sphere where the West is establishing NATO's Missile installations (in Russia's backyard) is provocation in the extreme, which logically follows with the level of response such as what we're seeing unfold.

The level of hubris of both super powers are nearly reaching a point of no return, to which there will be no elections, no people to hold elections in the end game, because this insane pissing match is nearly out of control. And you're fanning the flames with red-baiting and more hubris which doesn't do a thing to eliminate distrust, nor does it illuminate.

I beg you to consider a more rational approach in these discussion, if you're capable.

Its neighbors are entitled to chart their own destiny.

Note that it is Russia's neighbors-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania etc-- who are insisting on a more active role for NATO. This is not being driven by western imperialism--but rather to regional states' fear of Russian imperialism.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-crisis-stokes-baltic-nerves-over-russia-164847329.html

and that's the crux of the matter.

Given that Both East and West are determined to be dominant over the other - a call for a modicum of rational "behavior" is the very least that is called for here, imo.

They're about as credible as Fux Noise

he's always a good read and has good insider connections.

And, I agree with you. If people have other information that differs from Russia's agreement with Crimea for it's miltary base and port access then they should post it, rather than carrying on about "RT" being Faux News.

I know some folks don't have time to read varying sources for their news...but, to trash folks here who do have or make the time read many sources with the brush "Putin Lover" is ridiculous to see on a Democratic Web site in the "General Discussion Group."

People keep on saying there aren't Putin fans here.

See my post, above. Or maybe not. You probably have me on ignore.

occasions and here they are slobbering all over that authoritarian, rightwing, homophobic thug.

So, no, ridicule is what they get for praising the Russian Bush.

argument, state it with out the garbage, plez.

then make your case without the name calling.

or referring to people you view as excessively loyal to the President as "authoritarian."

There are those here who without exception line up behind Vladimir Putin whenever he clashes with President Obama. This is an unfortuante aspect to an open forum.

Pres Obama." There is a difference. I want to stay out of a war. Based on our track record, it wont help and most likely make things worse.

I doubt this: "There are those here who without exception line up behind Vladimir Putin whenever he clashes with President Obama."

contingent and those claiming that Putin's guy Yanukovych was the victim of an evil CIA conspiracy?

Hint: it's the people who think that Russia's government is a trustworthy source of information

they had who was behaving more and more like a dictator and abusing his office.

To put it another way--would you be out there protesting against Yanukovych?

actually like and voted for President Obama. Personally I like him as a person. However, some of us feel he hasn't been aggressive enough against Republicans and fought for sound left leaning policy. The same policy and beliefs DU used to stand for before we became a bunch of centrists around the time you joined this site, incidentally. He has been weakened by the real powers that be, the powers that want these conflicts, and are draining US tax payer social program dollars, namely the MIC, big oil and big banks who have enormous influence over US policy and "our" media. There's a reason the Republicans are pushing that fracking theme super hard. They and the people they represent benefit in all areas, big oil, MIC, and Wall Street. It's a Republican trifecta win and you were for it all along while you labeled us who fight against as traitors. Now lets see you spin for NATO expansion with that in mind.

goodness!

What one may see as attempt to shame others may also, just a validly, be seen as an accurate representation (as evidenced by particular descriptors of him, typed and transcribed for all to see...).

His gangster buddies wouldn't like US businesses invading their turf, ya know.

Russian population? That just happened in the 1944 when the indigenous Tatars were relocated forcibly to Uzbekistan and other places. 45% of them died in the process. The 'Russian Majority' is a construct resulting from ethnic cleansing.

As far as constructs go, here's one



I'm not a fan of territorial conquests and artificial borders but if you want to talk history, it started before that. The most 'indigenous' people of modern-day Crimea are the Cumans who were driven out by the Mongol invasion.

And the Crimea-Russia fighting started long before 1944 when the rest of today's dominant powers were doing the same, after the Crimean Khanate captured and enslaved over 3 million Ukrainians, Russians, Belorussians and Poles and sold them as slaves to the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. Heck, it started even before then, we could go back to Genghis Khan whose sons murdered and purged the Crimean Cumans, who allied with the Russians against him at the Battle of Kalka River, to seize Crimea for the Mongol Empire and moved in a bunch of Mongols, Greeks, Turks and Goths who wreaked havoc on Southern Russia until Catherine the Great annexed it in 1783.

Or take it even further before the Mongol invasion. Now that was an invasion.

Now that's a leader!

The conspiracy continues!

What a buzz kill.

Not sure if that project has been completed, but it was approved two years ago to be completed in 2018. THAT is akin to Soviet Missiles in Cuba. How much MORE provocative did we need to be to sow the seeds of fomentation paranoia and consequences?

Jeez what a crime against the people. We could be pouring all those billions, trillions, into our own people. Instead we're trying to redefine empires, ours especially, so a bunch of 1%-ers can profit from it for the rest of their mortal years. And WE have to toil away and pay for all this absolute crap.

And where is Rome now? In the dustbin of history.

I subscribed yesterday I'm not sure how long I'll be around but I'll try not to let as much time pass again.

Good to see you

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the Pepe Escobar article there that dropped like a rock in GD a couple of days ago.

No.

It was about specific maneuvers at that particular stage.

It was not about general relations with the EU. US relations with the EU are generally excellent.

If we apply your point, then DU scores rather low on the witty professional scale given the crass language slung around here.

actually work for a living.

As opposed to chair jockeys on the Internet.

And I don't want people who think or talk like that anywhere near our foreign policy. Those are the assholes that got us into Iraq.

What got us into Iraq was the NeoCon plot led by Dick Vader Cheney who exploited GWB's Oedipus complex against his father so that he could one-up him by "finishing" Iraq and supposedly avenge the alleged assassination plot by S. Hussein against GHWB in a Gulf state visit.

And kept us there too.

Anger is always a stupid basis for foreign policy, especially when you are not actually in a position to follow through.

We are not the Evil Empire some want to see us as. Just a flawed mix of people same as every other country.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]

I ask because you are one of our more informed DU'ers.

I don't think there is more to it than that.

Hillary is right, he is a notoriously thin skinned guy with issues of inferiority and inadequacy.

with the protestors, though?

That Putin saw this as aggression with John McCain and Victoria Nuland involved in a "pre-visit" and the very person Nuland wanted installed ("Yats&quot has taken over and there are Neo-Nazi's in positions of power? There was no reason for McCain and Nuland to be there if our war-supporting Neo-Cons weren't involved in meddling. That's all reported fact which would be enough for Putin to be concerned to protect Russian military base in Crimea and its port access. Plus he doesn't want another Nato allied territory on his border which was part of the deal in an Ukrainian alliance with EU for monetary loans.

That there are now Neo-Nazi's in "Yats" Parliament is not a good thing. And, if our Neo-Cons meddling with protestors helped facilitate this then that is setting up a dangerous situation for Ukranian people and for Putin to have to deal with on his border.

That's the concern of some of here at DU.

That is the way it works in a Democracy. It doesnt matter who is whispering those words into the ears of the people. We all fight this battle every day against our ideological opposites here in the US. It sucks when you lose, like when Bush was elected or installed in the White House. But when you lose you do not fire up the tanks and armored personnel carriers. When you do that, YOU become the person in the wrong. And yes, People from other countries have the right to come here to the US and set up PACs and organizations to try to convince us of things. They have the right to promote things out of their embassies. If that swings an election, or results in an impeachment, the remedy is to mount a campaign to vote them out next time, not invasion and annexation.

If throwing Ukraine into instability (bring in Neo-Nazi's into their governing) or civil war brings and end to the Neo-Cons control of the "War of Ideas" then that would be the "best of outcomes" of a destabilizing situation they helped facilitate. If they are outed as the misguided dangerous fools that they are then USA and the World would be better off.

The main reason that we have PAC and Organizations trying to convince us of things is the Supreme's Decision on "Citizens United." I still remember when it was revealed that Al Gore had taken money from a Buddist Temple and there was huge outrage all over the US.
We did not always allow foreign money into our elections. And once the Koch Brothers, ALEC and Foreign Money from Oligarchs in other countries can run our Political System by Picking our Candidates, Disrupting our Voting Rights and pushing their Preferred Legislation it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to just Vote Them Out.

We have just about reached that point here in the USA and if we don't get "Citizens United" overturned or find a way to bypass it with other legislation then we too will become like the countries we are always "supposedly" bringing Democracy to. Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky and others have pointed out that we are at "The Tipping Point."

which may explain why you think this is hilarious.

I wasn't suggesting that it was morally correct, justifiable, or legal.

just that it is logical that Russia would take measures as WE WOULD in the same/similar situation.

In a framework of geopolitical irrational world construct, it would be useful if not prudent to apply such considerations when taking a position as an individual, or implementing policy unnecessarily which would logically be seen as extremely provocative at best through the lens of an opponent of equal weight. Would it not?

I don't find fueling the flames for a nuclear show down to be very funny, personally.

anyone who has studied any history knows that Kerry's pronouncement didn't even come close to "new depths of self-parody" and hypocrisy. The annals of history are chock-a-block full of even more egregious examples.

this is, in the main, just another piece of propaganda and as I've been wont to say lately; I hate propaganda whatever its source. Like most propaganda, it's not flat out lies, but stressing certain facts, omitting others and shading things to fit a certain perspective.

I'd hardly call this "Propaganda"



Seumas Milne
Seumas Milne is a Guardian columnist and associate editor. He was the Guardian's comment editor from 2001 to 2007 after working for the paper as a general reporter and labour editor. He has reported for the Guardian from the Middle East, eastern Europe, Russia, south Asia and Latin America. He previously worked for the Economist and is the author of The Enemy Within and The Revenge of History and co-author of Beyond the Casino Economy.

people tend to be blind to propaganda that works to confirm their biases.

this Guardian Reporter is reporting? Please post one in this thread.

And for you to insinuate that those who found that article interesting are people who look for propaganda that works to confirm their biases is really condescending and not worthy of you.

D Read his bio. Extremely liberal borderline communist who thinks communism in practice has been "misunderstood".

And yeah. I know current Russia isn't Communist.

with you in this particular context. When I heard Kerry make those remarks, I nearly choked on my coffee. Self parody is putting it quite mildly.

There wouldn't be a Crimea crisis if they hadn't.

How the hell people blame that on the West and not on Russia invading their neighbor is just insane.

The fact is the west has been establishing geo-political encroachment and hegemony on Russian borders vis a vis NATO which involves Nuclear Missile installations in Poland and possibly elsewhere..

It would be akin to Russia doing the same in our hemisphere, i.e. the Caribbean, Mexico, and Canada for starters. (are you old enough to remember the Cuban Missile crises?)

I suspect that it would be considered legitimate U.S. interest to "invade" each of these countries with our military in such a scenario.

Let's list our excuses for invading Iraq while we're at it. I find our public statements on the Crimean situation embarrassing due to their sheer hypocrisy.

-Laelth

I called out the Iraq war before it started, I protested it and I have never given up complaining about it. Obama was also against the Iraq war.

I have no problems calling out Russia's unprovoked war of aggression in Crimea. Each time I do so, I should not have to make this same statement reminding people that I am not George W. Bush.

If national hypocrisy doesn't bother you, and if you are comfortable merely arguing that it's not your fault because you voted for the other guys, so be it. I actually feel some sympathy with and responsibility for my country. Thus, when the United States is hypocritical, it bothers me. And our public statements regarding the Crimean situation have been blatantly hypocritical.

-Laelth

Sid

Here's The Guardian's latest editorial on the subject:

Indeed.

We must enforce international law on one hand while we break international law on another. Let's be honest, this has nothing to do with international law.

but you can go either way with it, really.

except that one is willing to give on abortion and LGBT rights while the other isn't.




I repeat lol because these putzes are too embarrassing and the senile one needs to be retired asap.

Indeed, the VAST majority of progressives and liberals have condemned the military aggression on the part of Russia's rightwing nationalist authoritarian leaders.

It is only a very few on the discredited fringe of the left and the Sarah Palin right that support Putin's actions.

call for war. They have a short memory on how easily we, as a country, were manipulated into invading Iraq.

ditto with the Obama admin and Democrats in Congress

what's the end game?

which is pretty much where this is heading albeit with important distinctions wrt to trade and other geo-political matters which we have been "working" together on.. a stalemate until hopefully a detente of some kind, on some level can be achieved.

But we're not going to even achieve/regain that much if we continue on the path we've been on with meddling and engineering elections, coup d'etats, installing NATO in their neighborhood.

And yes, Ukraine is very much within Russia's sphere, that's the reality and will continue to be until we blow each other up to smithereens. or we get hit with asteroids.

maybe that will be the best that can be achieved, at this point.

aligned with the EU/NATO.

Not a great deal for Putin, all things considered. Not a good deal for anyone, actually. But a lot better than war,

I'd counsel against setting up NATO installations of any kind though, even if they "join" with NATO.

Seems like "Terra" was a poor and unprofitable enemy to have compared to the Soviet Russians were. You can only make so much money off of data interception and pie-in-the-sky big-data-loyalty-analyses and considering how much data we're collecting I bet we're at the market ceiling there.

Funny how our people were caught unawares by Russia considering our several well-funded TLA intelligence services. Almost as if they were WASTING resources doing something that isn't paying off very well.

I was astonished to learn the extent of NATO Missile systems getting established in the region, and I had forgotten all about the Neo Con "Democracy projects" going on in the region, I guess I assumed that ended with Obama's administration. Didn't realize the Neo-Cons were still hanging with the State Dept and getting tax payer funding for all of this crap to the tune of billions and billions of dollars, (yet we have to cut Food Stamps, Unemployment Benefits and everything else while we stir up shit over there), needless to say these events came up as surprise to me. But I'm not in the State Department and now I know somethings about the back story still to be given little if any mention in the media.

To your point: Last night I tuned into Charlie Rose to see/listen to the next clown in line to bemoan Russia's illegal invasion. So I'm listening to this guy formerly from Obama's administration (forget his name) hand wringing over the situation, with absolutely no acknowledgement on any level of what precipitated these events. Knowing now what I've learned in the past week, I'd say this guy was the perfect spokesperson from the Department of Propaganda and Disinformation.

I don't assume ignorance, when likely it's abject hubris at work here..

Wasting resources is what Imperialists do best.. Don't know how long this corrupt house of cards and will last before it comes tumbling down... not holding my breath.

Neo Cons and Neo Libs both are in agreement with show down with Russia.

But Progressives are not Neo-Libs and I'll wager that you cannot find a single authentic progressive poll that show backs your claim.

The overwhelming majority of DUers consider Russia's actions unjustified and unacceptable.

but I will... He reminds me of the Grumpy Old Gentleman who runs out of the house yelling to the kids: "GET OFF OF MY LAWN RIGHT NOW--You're Destroying My Grass!"

There are some DU'ers, whom I respect, who feel that what he is doing is warning Russia that a civil war in Ukraine could break out and that Kerrys verbal actions are reflecting Obama's policy of keeping us out of another conflict. They feel that Kerry and Obama kept us out of Syria because Kerry's bellicose posturing caused Russia to pull back from funding terrorists so that we could force Assad to give up his Chemical Weapons. I don't agree with that AT ALL, from what I've read it was Putin who threw a lifeline to Obama as a way out of the Syrian impasse and that our Military Brass also didn't want the involvement of getting bogged down in Syria. But, its what they feel and there's no way of them seeing another viewpoint.

It's actually basic geopolitics and defense strategy.

If Mexico had overthrown their government and wanted to join Russia's security umbrella, and Russia attempted to put troops/missiles/missile shields near our border, there's no way we'd stand for it. And rightly so. No state would stand for such an unsubtle act of aggression.

Why is Russia any different? Having NATO in Ukraine is like giving someone a knife to point at one's own belly. Any leader would be stupid to let that happen. We've been through this already with the continuing missile shield saga. They aren't objecting to the missile shield just cuz Putin is a bad old man, it's because such a move upsets a delicate balance of power and system of deterrence. Peace between the major powers during the last 70 years has relied on this equilibrium.