Literally deny pain. Now there is a rare nerve disorder where pain doesn't register, but these guys had learned deep down that to have pain showed weakness.

or admit anything was wrong with him until one day he couldn't.

I am sorry. Even when you know something isn't right, they just keep denying that there is a problem and of course you want to believe them.

I had a patient with a perforated diverticula, now that will kill anyone right off, but untreated is almost sure death. He kept going/working until he passed-out. The infection was all through his abdominal cavity. When I cleaned it for him, he was just stoic and actually chatting with me. Finally he admitted he felt it, but learned not to show it.

I am so glad fried eggs posted this, it may help save others from what you experienced, again, I am sorry.

conditions that are about being human. Men are people too.

Like "Fuck. Pain. Dentist. Need Drugs. NOW."

I sympathize.

A wop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom.

Tutti Fruiti.............

My 2 boys are men now and, I gotta say, that's pretty much the way I raised 'em: Wop bop a loo bop a lop (wo?) bam boom. Don't sweat the small change, dance, sing, laugh, but be serious when its required. Oh, that and 4 words to inculcate in them a very important part of real "manhood": "Don't ever hit a female."

Nothing wrong with boys/men crying and being sensitive.

I'm so glad my niece and nephews are being raised without this sort of bs. The boys are picking up stuff at school a little bit. Like when my niece had friends over for a birthday and were going to watch a movie the boys called it a "girlie" movie. But they still watched it. They're only 14 months older than her.

"Your last name is ugly."

I never forgot that.

She was a good mother and a good woman but she hurt me to my core that day out of a fit of pique.

Or, if they did, I ignored it.

should see this film and read the book "Real Boys." No wonder boys and men act like such jerks! Let's end this crap!

'Be a man'...meh...I think 'I hate you' would be the worst thing a father could ever tell a son.

Back when I was a little one. Be a man to her meant doing the right thing; speaking out when something was wrong even if it didnt affect me personally. I know when I was in school and someone was getting the shaft, I'd say something. Once, the Asst Principal (who was a real dick) said "why are you talking? This has nothing to do with you". And I said "because its wrong". My friend wouldnt speak up, so I did. Of course, today as an adult you might get shot if you speak up......

take responsibility is more appropriate. I work in middle school. Far too often kids are allowed to skate away from their responsibilities. I always told my daughter to stand up for herself and always take responsibility for her actions.

She has turned out to be a good kid and a great adult. I wish I could claim some responsibility, but I really had it easy with her-except the teen years-but hey everyone goes berserk then.

One can do the right thing, irrespective of their gender.

you do not tell a child to be an adult. you talk to a child about responsibility, expectations. but that expectation is not being an adult

what about when a bout is 2, 3? what a little man he is. no... he is a boy

husband/father leaves house and they tell the boy.... you are the man of the house. what is that implying, suggesting. the BOY, the CHILD is responsible for the adult, parent, mom?

you never hear a girl ever told... be a woman.

My mostly funny advice to my kids was "Bones heal and chicks dig scars".

Society expects of them.

It has led to my three boys being very empathetic and kind.

It has also led to my boys being bullied for being 'less than manly' because they aren't afraid to cry and they aren't terribly interested in sports or more traditional 'male' tasks.

Neither DH nor I has ever said "Be a man" to them.

When one of their uncles did, my oldest said "But, Uncle X, I'm a boy, I won't be a man for a while yet".

I thought it was a good response.

We are older parents growing up with that stereotype and I am trying very hard to change that.

He comes home from preschool with some really bad stuff ... girls like pink and barbie dolls ... Sarah is odd because she likes to play with cars ... Miles is odd because he plays with dolls. I always ask him who told him that and he usually says the name of one of the other boys there. The teachers do not encourage that. Other parents (YOUNG parents) seem to tell their kids what girls and boys supposed to like and I find that highly offensive. It is a struggle to decide if I want him to be the odd duck and be bullied or just let it go and say nothing.

I always have to make sure that he understands that he can play with whatever, like any color that he wants to, that I, as a girl, LOVED playing with hotwheel cars, etc. I know that sooner or later, it will put him at odds with one of the "be a man" boys, but I hope I am able to help him deal with it.

What really hurt me (as a parent who weighs probably 50 pounds more than I should...and I am working on it) was that he caught me watching the "600 pound life" and said "that is DISGUSTING" ... again, asking why he said that, he mentioned one of the kids in daycare who apparently says that about overweight people. I just HATE that other parents say some really disgusting and awful things in front of their children without even thinking about how it affects them and how the kids just internalize that.

My boy cries. Sometimes he just cries or whines when he wants his will. In those cases, I encourage him to use his words to say what he wants and that only babies cry about things like that because they don't know how to talk yet. If he gets hurt and cries, he gets a big hug and kisses to make it better ... and a reminder that most times, being careful and looking at what he does can prevent many accidents and owies.

And, we also have some family members who say that "be a man" or "boys don't cry" BS. Thank God we don't see them too often.

I'm 47 (DH is 52) and we have a five year old as well (and 11 and 13 year olds, all boys).

Your son sounds a lot like my little guy, especially with the whining, but that's a 5 year old thing.

All three of mine cry, sometimes more than they need to, but I'd rather see them able to show their emotions than bury them. My husband had to learn how to accept that he even has emotions.

My oldest played with dolls until he became more interested in legos. Not for any boy/girl reason, but because he loves babies and little kids. He's the first one wanting to hold babies or help out with the little ones. He's a nurturer at heart and I hope he never loses that trait.

My son comes home with the same things that yours does. Girls play with dolls, boys play with trucks...pink is a 'girl' color, blue is a 'boy' color.

I'm fat and he loves snuggling with me because 'mama is made of soft and warm', but he also cries when he comes home some days because 'fat bellies are ugly and will make you die'.

You sound like the same kind of mom I'm striving to be (unless you're a dad, can't really tell from your SN).

But it is hard to raise boys that aren't exactly like all the other boys.

For the last couple of weeks, we've been battling tummy bugs, colds, skin rashes, and then another bout of colds.

I am a mom and less than perfect. After being home for so many days with a sick boy, I am just ready for a break. My husband couldn't take off and I was kinda by myself.

Research has a hard time to figure out the nature vs. nurture thing because you can't raise a child isolated from the environment. Hopefully, we are doing the right thing by not discouraging the boys from playing with whatever they want to play with and support them when they have to deal with bullies.

Sick kids are the worst, especially the little ones. It is exhausting.

The oldest of my three just turned 13. He's taking debate in his Talented and Gifted section at school and their current topic is the Death Penalty. I asked him what his opinion about it is, now that he's done research. We've never discussed it with him before.

He told me that it seems stupid to kill someone for killing, it is like telling him not to hit his brother by hitting him, it doesn't make any sense. Then, he asked how can it be right, if an innocent person gets killed for something they didn't do. He felt that was way worse than a guilty person dying for something they did do, but he also thought they were both revenge instead of real punishment. (Done rambling, but there is a point here!)

I'm very proud of him and glad I went the route of letting him feel what he feels instead of shoving it down and not forcing him into a traditional male role. I think that has made him overall a more compassionate and thoughtful kid.

Oh, one more anecdote. When middle son was in first grade, he got a question wrong on a worksheet. The question was: What member of the family takes care of babies? His answer: Dad and Mom. They were looking for mom, but their dad has done a lot of child care and housework over the years. (He also had no idea what 'dusting' is...lol).

Anyway, sorry for rambling, but it has been nice talking to you! I've really enjoyed it!

them is that "being a man" entails any of the knuckle-dragging Neanderthal bullshit behaviors rightly critiqued in the video.
We, and I believe millions of parents just like us, are engaged in trying to change the definition of what it means to "Be a man".

People always wrongly assume that 'be a man' only means one thing written in stone.

or my daughters.

I disagree.

I think that is where we fail, personally.

too. It implies that being a man is only one thing, and that thing is bad.

Why the hell would people only choose to define being a man as something negative? It doesn't say much about the people using that definition.

that only a "conservative" would posit that. Liberals are more likely to have a more nuanced definition IMHO. I certainly didn't mean to imply that there is only a single definition.

to the conservative/liberal take on what it means to be a man. I was more responding in the light of the OP and the worse thing you could say.

I agree with the 'dark hole to the gender wars'. I guess I didn't think it all the way through.

He took me out to the hallway to have words with me, accusing me of provoking trouble.

Me, the skinny squeaky kid who speaks his clueless mind?

I didn't like where the conversation was going so I ran off, jumped over the fence, and walked home, with a lot of interesting detours before dinnertime.

Next day I went back to school and it was like nothing had happened. School administrators never called my mom. She's worse than I am. When I was a kid my mom would get our family kicked out of churches because she would always say what she thought, things "authorities" didn't want to hear, didn't want shared. That's how we ended up Quaker. They'd listen respectfully and move on.

"Respect Authority" is something that has to be taught.

I was only taught to respect worthy authorities. This has caused difficulty in life.

Where a lot of people go wrong is in their idea of what that means.

OK...more than 3 words.

... or the other young man (name?). The two of them are walking down the school corridor and three or four "jocks" ( for lack of a more nuanced term) come down in the opposite direction, spanning the entire width of the hallway refusing to "give ground" to the smaller, weaker, nerdier and ultimately homicidal boys.

Three or four seconds of a visual image that tells one more about Columbine than the ten million words written about it since that day.

There's a lesson in there somewhere. I guess it's these behavior patterns ( the dominance hierarchy thing ) must have had some utility in eons... and maybe even decades... past.

But they sure aren't useful or "adaptive" anymore.

Big K and R.

Our sons to be men. There is nothing wrong with that. They are boys that will be men. They are not girls who will be women.

However, I agree saying "Be a man" to a young boy that is upset, emotional, or confused about an issue is wrong. To me, it's like telling a man or boy to quit their whining. I hate that.

We want men to be more emotional, in touch with their feelings, but then tell them to quit their whining??? Very bad message.

In your context it is negetive because of your bias.
Some times it is used as a positive.
An example would be be a man and apologize or be a man and take responcibility. It all depends on your paradigm.

Retired in flyover country (that's a nicer term than RedNeckLand, don't you agree?) for financial reasons, I've had my share of problems with some of the local adult teabaggers. But I can say quite honestly that the kids have been great to me w/o fail over 8 years. Whether it's because I make so many of their parents mad, who can say? Anyway, I like them and they know it. Sometimes they'll turn to me with a problem I don't think they feel comfortable talking about just anywhere. That makes me feel good and I always try to encourage them though not in a way to cause more trouble at home.

When it comes to full grown men, I've said to more than one of them that what I honor most is a good family man. I couldn't care less about their $ or education or lack thereof. If they're a good family man, they have my utmost respect. Sometimes it's hard for me to keep my political beliefs out of the mix, but it has been a little easier the more I read about how people got so screwed up the way they tend to be around here. When I can see the frightened kid inside, it tamps down my gut reaction to go upside their heads with a skillet or something. Many of you have probably read the cluster of recent articles about how showing fanatics the facts only makes them dig in harder. Witness anti-vaxers, etc. And teabaggers. I don't let any of their leaders off the hook, though.

That was always my favorite thing to hear from my dad

It's the follow up as to how you define the characteristics of a man.

If you're too stupid to recognize how to teach your male child how to be a proper man in this society, then please just don't breed.

Thanks.

The problem comes from the culturally loaded suppositions of what being a man looks like.

Why is "be a man" the worst thing you can tell a boy? Would "be a woman" be equally bad?

From the perspective of not pushing maturity too soon, I can understand and accept this, but the whole topic seems heavily loaded with the idea that being a man is a bad thing, which I consider even more damaging.

"A real man would't so that"

The irony, of course, is that it comes from the ones who think they are feminist allies telling people they think are MRAs about what defines manhood.

What they don't get is that it is just as restrictive to say that a "real man" is THIS as it is to say that a "real man" is THAT.

Either one is imposing an idealized and narrow definition upon men.

boy things such as cars and explosions. He also likes astronomy. He tells me if owning his own ice cream shop doesn't work out he wants to work in demolition. His favorite shows right now are Outrageous Acts of Science, Brain Games, and Myth Busters. I try to channel his passions by telling him he should study astronomy and chemistry in school after all that is what explosions are, chemical reactions. I have tried to steer him away from certain things like violent tv or video games but those are things I have tried to steer my daughter away from as well. I really haven't done much different in regards to raising both a boy and girl. I want the same things for both my son and my daughter. I want to keep them safe, keep them fed and clothed, love them, educate them, get them ready to be able to take care of themselves when they are grown, and teach them to treat themselves and others with respect and compassion.

That is not to say that either tends to be less curious than the other, but....

<flame suit on>
I'll just say what I observe. Curiosity tends to incline boys to look for ways that they can manipulate objects, phenomena and the environment to create desired outcomes and act as manifestations of personal power; E.G. making things go faster/be louder/blow up/win in competition.

Curiosity tends to incline girls to look for ways that they can manipulate relationships to create desired outcomes and act as manifestations of personal power.

There are, of course, exceptions to every rule. Some men really don't understand why other men are intrigued by their fascination with loud competitive stuff, and some women really don't understand why other women are fascinated by drama, clothing and appearance.
<flame suit off>

If my 15 year old was interested in the kinds of things you described, I'd subscribe to Make magazine. It's an excellent, fun and well-written guide for that kind of curiosity. I just spent a couple of hours reading the Make guide to Electronics, and it's the best educational resource for electronics that I've ever read.

In any case there is nothing wrong with telling a boy to be a man.

Depending on context and user, etc. People use it to mean "stop complaining," "don't be emotional," and so on. It can be used in destructive ways, but that is true of any words or phrases. In and of itself it's hardly destructive.

Other contexts in which it isn't. Ditto, I suppose, on showing emotion. Context being key.

They both allow one person to sum up whatever it is they imagine that gender to be. And tell the other to be that. You're doing it all over this thread with your thoughts on what it means.

Is it the worst thing? No. But it is obnoxious. What if I went around telling a flamboyant gay man to "be a man!" or "act like a man"?

Be a man? Really? We should encourage our young boys to grow into strong men; this nonsense video implies that 'man' is a negative word. What a bunch of bull.

SOME people use the phrase "be a man" to discourage boys from behavior they think is unbecoming, such as being emotional or showing weakness. Others, however, encourage their boys to grow into strong, independent men who value responsibility, integrity, character, thoughtfulness, resourcefulness, a strong work ethic, intelligence, wisdom and ingenuity. These are all qualities that "be a man" means when it's used on my family.

In short, this clip was worthless and does more harm than good.

To do something others may not want to. And in a young mans life it can be harmful to constantly led around by an imagined state of "man". Just my 2 cents.

But that doesn't make it automatically so. Being a real man is something that should be encouraged in our nation's boys. We can individually address instances where "be a man" is damaging or instilling negative stereotypes on a case by case basis.

another train wreck thread!