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dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts) Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:54 PM Mar 2014

Ukraine and the west: hot air and hypocrisy

Public clashes between Ukrainians and Russians in the main square in Sevastopol. Ukrainians protesting at Russian interference; Crimean Russians demanding the return of Sevastopol to Russia, and that parliament recognise Russian as the state language. Ukrainian deputies barred from the government building; a Russian "information centre" opening in Sevastopol. Calls from the Ukrainian ministry of defence for an end to the agreement dividing the Black Sea fleet between the Russian and Ukrainian navies. The move is labelled a political provocation by Russian deputies. The presidium of the Crimean parliament announces a referendum on Crimean independence, and the Russian deputy says that Russia is ready to supervise it. A leader of the Russian Society of Crimea threatens armed mutiny and the establishment of a Russian administration in Sevastopol. A Russian navy chief accuses Ukraine of converting some of his Black Sea fleet, and conducting armed assault on his personnel. He threatens to place the fleet on alert. The conflict escalates into terrorism, arson attacks and murder.

Sound familiar? All this happened in 1993, and it has been happening, in some form or other, since at least the 14th century.

Instead of blustering into their microphones in a frenzy of self-righteous indignation, the leaders of the US and EU would do well to spend a few minutes swotting up on the history of this volatile region. They would learn that Crimea has a long history of conflict between its Ukrainian, Russian and Tartar communities, and has been ping-ponging back and forth between Ottoman, Russian and Ukrainian jurisdiction for years. The last time the British got involved was in 1853-6, and that, too, was a shambles. This time, the west's intervention has been foolish and inept, and its hypocrisy is shameful.

Less than a month ago, a violent insurrection in the streets of Kiev against the elected government was greeted in the west as an uprising of "the people of Ukraine" choosing the west against closer ties with Russia. Everyone knows, if they stop to think about it, that such a simplistic characterisation of "the people of Ukraine" is wilfully naive, but the breathless journalists and huffy politicians gushing their stuff never stop to think. Thinking is dangerous. It can lead you to see the other person's point of view.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/ukraine-and-west-hot-air-hypocrisy-crimea-russia

7 replies

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Ukraine and the west: hot air and hypocrisy (Original Post) dipsydoodle Mar 2014 OP

How was it an uprising of "the people of Ukraine" when there were never more than 50,000 on streets? Catherina Mar 2014 #1

Such patronizing bullshit from you. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #3

Really, I don't see what they are trying to get at here. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #2

Making excuses for Putin is a full time job for a few of our Distinguished Posters. Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2014 #4

the OP is trying to get at something here CreekDog Mar 2014 #7

Good read - THIS malaise Mar 2014 #5

When a writer says "we don't know"... joshcryer Mar 2014 #6

Catherina

(35,568 posts)

1. How was it an uprising of "the people of Ukraine" when there were never more than 50,000 on streets?

Reply to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 04:19 PM

Mar 2014

So all the people who disagreed with them and stayed home? They don't get a vote according to these rewritten neo-democratic principles of staggering hypocrisy?

Maybe this is where Occupy went wrong. Maybe it should have gotten billions of dollars worth of funding from other countries and sent our entire government packing. But that wouldn't have been democratic because everyone, as witnessed right here at DU with our more conservative members, everyone didn't agree with their Occupy's principles and we, throughout our worst years (8 years of Bush!) remained civilized enough to do things democratically.

And that loathsome little neonazi putchmeister, as was pre-planned, is going to ram through IMF austerity before the Ukrainian people even know what hit them.

Today they got a whiff of what's to come- 50% reduction in their pensions.

It's funny how according to the warped, corporate beholden Western press, the only voices in Ukraine that count are the voices of the few people who violently seized power in Ukraine right before the MAY elections because they knew there was no way the Ukrainian people would endorse this at the ballot box.

I'm betting that the Ukrainians that risked their lives didn't intend to see their pensions cut in half.

Remember now, gullible Ukrainians participated in the protests that were used to overthrow their elected government, because they believed the lies told to them by Washington-financed NGOs that once they joined the EU they would have streets paved with gold. Instead they are getting cuts in their pensions and an IMF austerity plan.
The austerity plan will cut social services, funds for education, layoff government workers, devalue the currency, thus raising the prices of imports which include Russian gas, thus electricity, and open Ukrainian assets to takeover by Western corporations.
Ukraine’s agriculture lands will pass into the hands of American agribusiness.

By getting rid of the very corrupt, but democratically elected government, they have opened up the country to be thoroughly exploited by the same bankers that are currently raping the middle class of southern Europe.
When you consider this, and the fascists now in power in Kiev, does it surprise you that Crimea and some parts of eastern Ukraine want to secede?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/10/1283560/-Our-news-media-is-lying-to-us-about-Ukraine

The IMF has consistently said that Ukraine's economic policies would create unsustainable large external and fiscal imbalances. It has called on Kiev to cut its large fiscal deficit, phase out energy subsidies, strengthen the banking sector, and allow the exchange rate to fall. A freely floating hryvnia currency and higher domestic gas prices are unpopular steps previously rejected by the Kiev government. Similar conditions are expected to be attached to any new IMF bailout.

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2014/02/26/Factbox-Ukraines-history-with-IMF-bailouts/

As for the left being represented in the revolution/coup, that is highly questionable.

The tiny handful of revolutionary socialists who were present, intent on trying to present a working-class and socialist alternative to Ukrainian and Russian capitalism to workers who had legitimate grievances against government corruption, violence, and the selling of Ukraine to the highest bidder, included a few Ukrainian members of the Fourth International. They and other socialists were run off the streets, their flyers torn to shreds.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/10/1283560/-Our-news-media-is-lying-to-us-about-Ukraine

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,188 posts)

3. Such patronizing bullshit from you.

Reply to Catherina (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 05:30 PM

Mar 2014

Acting as if dissent against Yanukovych was limited to those who came out to Maidan. Or as if corruption in the Ukrainian government was unimportant to the average Ukrainian.

By the way, your subject line is total bullshit as well:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-live-updates-333965.html

Snip:

Dec. 22, 5:47 p.m. Both the Associated Press and Reuters estimated the peak crowd size of today's EuroMaidan rally at 100,000 people -- a higher figure than Kyiv Post staff writers estimate. But counting such a large crowd, sprawled out over the main Independence Square and adjacent streets is hard to do.

From the same article:

Dec. 19, 12:20 p.m. Around 64 percent of the population of Kyiv support EuroMaidan protests which started on Nov. 21, reads the latest survey by Research & Branding Group. Mostly young people and those up to 50 years were among the most active supporters. Also 59 percent of Kyiv's population can stand some inconvenience caused by the barricades and protesters' tents on the main Kyiv's square, Tyzhden newspaper reports. -- Olena Goncharova

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-sunday-dec15-live-updates-333639.html

Snip:
EuroMaidan gathers hundreds of thousands

Dec. 15, 12:30 p.m. Hundreds of thousands gathered on Maidan Nezalezhnosti on Dec. 15 to protest against the government. The protests are now in their fourth week.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,188 posts)

2. Really, I don't see what they are trying to get at here.

Reply to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 05:16 PM

Mar 2014

Like it or not, Crimea is considered Ukrainian land. It was recognized as such in treaties in 1994 and 1997 to which Russia was a signatory.

Russia is in violation of international law and treaties and there should be no excuse for its actions. None.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)

4. Making excuses for Putin is a full time job for a few of our Distinguished Posters.

Reply to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:52 PM

Mar 2014

Why I don't know. It matters not what the internal Ukrainian situation is; occupation and invasion is occupation and invasion, regardless. Coups, if that's what this was, happen all the time. If the new Ukraine gov't is really so horrible, making a case before the UN should have been a piece of cake. Who elected Putin to be sole arbiter of what constitutes an acceptable human rights situation in Ukraine? His authority ends at the border between Russia and Ukraine. That's what international law recognizes.
Putin didn't even attempt to go before the UN before sending his soldiers in.
Meantime, no Ukrainian soldier has fired a shot. As I've posted before, I hope that continues, although one wonders how long that patience can last under the provocations given. It makes it just how transparently thin a case Putin has.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)

7. the OP is trying to get at something here

Reply to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:12 PM

Mar 2014

at least that much is obvious.

malaise

(269,103 posts)

5. Good read - THIS

Reply to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:58 PM

Mar 2014

Thinking is dangerous. It can lead you to see the other person's point of view.

Thanks dipsydoodle

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)

6. When a writer says "we don't know"...

Reply to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 09:02 PM

Mar 2014

...but builds this huge narrative, I just can't take them seriously.

And what elections is she talking about? The temporary government will be gone in a couple of months. It is really incoherent.

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