You CANNOT "accidentally" shoot yourself or someone else while cleaning a firearm. You can only shoot yourself or someone else intentionally or by gross, criminal negligence.

Instructions for cleaning a gun:

Step 1 - Engage the safety

Step 2 - Remove any live ammunition from the weapon.

Those are the first two steps to cleaning any firearm. If you follow those two steps you CANNOT shoot yourself or anyone else.

"The gun went off while I was cleaning it." is a "The dog ate my homework" excuse. It is invoked when you did something stupid/malicious instead of what you were supposed to do.

What "The gun went off while I was cleaning it." really means is "I was playing with a loaded gun without a single regard for anyone's safety" or "I shot that person and hope you will buy this lie."

Most modern self-defense pistols do not feature manual safeties, for example. Some even require the trigger to be pulled during disassembly. Of course the weapon should be cleared prior to any cleaning.

My method is quite simple; I eject the magazine and tap it twice on my table (just my system to build muscle memory and as a reminder to eject the magazine each and every time). After that, I rack the slide to eject the chambered round. Then I rack the slide three more times to verify that there isn't a round chambered. After racking the slide repeatedly, I lock it to the rear and visually then physically inspect the weapon to confirm it is clear and safe.

If I am alone, I proceed to disassembly. If I am not alone, I have whoever is with me double check that the weapon is clear and safe using the same visual / physical inspection.

To date I've never had a negligent discharge during cleaning, while at the range, or anywhere else.

"self-defense pistols".

So, there are modern firearms that will only fire in "self-defense"? That must be very helpful for the "stand your ground" claims.

Again, I have a two step process. Apparently there are now firearms with no safety, which strikes me as pretty stupid. However, I did state my instructions had TWO steps. The second one involves "Remove any live ammunition from the weapon."

If a person cannot handle this simple step, they should not be allowed to touch a gun.

When I referenced modern day self defense pistols that aren't manufactured with a manual safety, I did so because that is the primary purpose for which the pistols have been designed and marketed. Did I say they can only fire in self defense? Why would you even draw that inference?

Inexplicably, you write "Apparently there are now firearms with no safety, which strikes me as pretty stupid."

Do you know what strikes me as pretty stupid? Two facets of that statement. That you think this is a new concept (firearms have been produced without safeties since, well, the beginning of firearms) -- and that you think no manual safety means no safety at all.

Glocks, which have no traditional fire / safe selector, for example, are equipped with three safety mechanisms -- a trigger safety, a drop safety, and a firing pin safety. They are designed so that the glock is always safe but always ready -- the glock is designed to always fire when the trigger is pulled, but never fire when it isn't.

Modern self defense pistols have been designed based that principal -- a pistol with the primary purpose of self defense needs to be mechanically simple to operate. A traditional manual safety adds an unnecessary step.

is linguistic nonsense, like "peacekeeper missile", doublespeak.

the primary design focus of the MX missile was to "keep the peace", not incinerate a few million people with a radioactive firestorm.

If you pull the trigger of a "self-defense pistol" the results are the same as pulling the trigger of any other firearm.

The point of the pistol is to propel a piece of metal at someone who is doing something you do not like, or is simply BEING someone you do not like. The preferred end result is that they cease doing or being what you disapprove of. The context of the weapon is secondary to the purpose of the weapon. The context is debatable, the purpose is absolute.

Now true, it might be marketed as a tool for self defense but that doesn't mean a whole lot. You can market a kitchen knife as a tool to crush garlic, which it will do a fine job of, but that doesn't mean I can't chop vegetables with it.

Fully 90% of the details in your posts so far have nothing whatever to do with the topic at hand. It is instead pedantic minutiae which doesn't address in any fashion the issue, which is the number of monumental dipshits shooting themselves and others while "cleaning" a firearm.

There are numerous types of vehicles, from coupes to SUVs to pickup tricks to high performance sports cars, and many many more. Though they're all vehicles designed to transport someone or something, their primary purposes will differ. You wouldn't try to haul a mattress strapped down on a corvette when you could use a pickup. If self defense is your motivation for carrying, wouldn't it make sense to carry a gun designed with that purpose in mind??

Gun manufactures like Glock have designed their pistols to have the least amount of manipulation required in order to fire a round, while still retaining internal safety features.

A hunting rifle like a marlin 30-30 has a purpose; as does a glock 17. Both our guns but their primary purposes are not the same.

I'm not sure how this is a difficult concept.

Let me refresh your memory: Some moron shot his pregnant wife while "cleaning" his firearm. You have anything you want to opine about regarding that?

BTW your point about primary purposes is not as clear cut as you imagine. However since it has jack-all to do with the OP I would suggest you make a new thread about it if you want to discuss it further. I'd be delighted to participate there.

It was to a guy who made a nonsense blanket statement about the first two steps when cleaning "any" firearm. I addressed his nonsense. And now I am addressing your nonsense.

Of course one should be sure that the magazine is out and the chamber cleared. I've always thought it was a stupid procedure. I would bet there have been more negligent discharges with glock and other models like it than most others combined.

1) engage safety
2) remove live ammunition

After which, it doesn't matter how many times you pull the trigger to disassemble it.

If you pull the trigger and the gun fires, you failed to follow step two.

There are only two places bullets can hide. In the magazine or in the chamber.

I am now of the opinion that we need a law on the books that says "Any person who 'accidentally' discharges a gun while 'cleaning' it, shall be forever banned from owning, possessing or handling ANY firearm."

I do not see that this is unreasonable since you have proven that you are NOT a "responsible" gun owner.

The function could be made safer by the addition of a decock mechanism rather than having to pull the trigger. The fact that people do and have failed to clear the chamber before pulling the trigger not withstanding, the process for disassembly could be made less prone to promote negligent discharges imho.

bought immunity from liability suits several years back.

Again, a firearm only discharges during "cleaning" when the owner has acted with malicious disregard for safety, or has deliberately shot someone and is lying about it.

You would fail almost any gun safety class with that procedure.

Putting on the safety and clearing it of any live ammo would "fail" a gun safety class?

And all that screaming my platoon sergeant did was a lie? Not to mention what they taught me when I took that NRA safety course? How did I ever survive handling all those weapons over the years? Have guns changed that much in the last ten years?

I suspect military standards are a bit different as well.

The M9 has a decocker, not really a safety like the 1911 has but it does perform a similar function. I suspect that you may have trained on one of those models. These days pistols with those types of designs are in the minority.

Really. Go to a gun shop or check online. Very few modern designs have a manual safety. Some Berretas and 1911's.

In any case rule #1 - keep the firearm pointed in safe direction. Always. That's why I said your process is a fail.

"Always assume a weapon is loaded and don't point it at anyone or anything you do not intend to shoot."

My focus in this case was on the first steps to cleaning a firearm, wherein the above rule is the superset. I was addressing the point of so many people who claim they shot themselves, or someone else, while "cleaning their gun".

Bullets can only hide in two places: The magazine or the chamber. If you have removed the magazine and cleared the chamber, you cannot shoot yourself or others. The most common excuse I hear in "cleaning accidents" is that they removed the magazine but forgot to check/clear the chamber. My question is how do you forget that step? It is part and parcel of the procedure for cleaning a weapon. The best analogy I can think of is the instructions for breathing:

1) Inhale/exhale.

How do you do one, without doing the other?

People have MANY excuses for the unintentional discharge of a firearm, but it pretty much boils down to a violation of universal rule #1 which you stated: "Always point the barrel in a safe direction". However, admitting you broke that rule means admitting negligence, which means people fall back on excuse #2, "It went off while I was cleaning it." Somehow, this is seen as an acceptable excuse, when it simply isn't.

My view is that if you "accidentally" shoot someone while "cleaning" a firearm, you should never be allowed to own or handle one ever again.

When preparing to clean a firearm all safety rules apply. Keeping it pointed in a safe direction is rule 1. Always. Assume that it is loaded.

A gun with an empty chamber, slide back and no magazine should be treated as if it were loaded. Keep it pointed in a safe direction.

After field stripping the firearm it becomes much safer to handle.

Yes. If you shoot someone through negligence the penalties should be severe. Gun safety classes should be mandatory for gun owners. Yearly refreshers, or at least with every license renewal.Technology changes.

I had two hours of gun safety class two weekends ago. Always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction.

ALWAYS ASSUME THE FIREARM IS LOADED AND NEVER POINT IT IN THE DIRECTION OF ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO KILL.

Step two is remove magazine. Step three is clear chamber. Step four is remove all ammunition from the room while cleaning.

This is a good general procedure for many modern semi auto pistols. When possible/necessary consult the owners manual for your specific firearm.

Law enforcement officers have no excuse. This guy should not be allowed to carry a gun.

Right-wingers will no doubt have little negative to say about the death of his unborn child, and support the guy 100%. Which will prove yet again that conservatives would be okay with abortion as long as it was done with guns...

If so the cases should be reviewed.

I can't tell you how many times in 40 yrs I've heard that. Helen was blind but she saw by feeling things with her hands.

"Cleaning a gun and didn't realize it was loaded" should be tattooed on his forehead as he's lead off to jail.

Is homicide by the baby daddy. Being a cop, he'll get away with it.

May he spend life in jail.

It's possible, but given:

- That this was a direct headshot
- Police officer's propensity for domestic abuse

this should be investigated by a third party (not that it will be - all evidence has probably already been destroyed).

Stop laughing, you! It might be true!

The officer, Trooper Joseph Miller, was cleaning his gun and did not realize it was loaded, police told the Inquirer. The gun apparently was not his service weapon.

It should say

The officer, Trooper Joseph Miller, was ignoring every rule and concept of gun safety by handling a loaded weapon without checking. He is a fucking moron and in a decent society would be held criminally liable for his wife's death as a lesson to all who would behave foolishly with weapons.

accidentally shot himself cleaning his gun.

He had taken the clip out but did not check the chamber.

He almost got kicked out of the Army for it. The claim was that he was trying to get out of another deployment.

Oh wait, he's a cop. it's okay for him to shoot people.

Maybe he didn't want to have a pregnant wife anymore, and devised a way to get rid of her and get away with it.

I'm not saying that is what happened, but IMHO it's on roughly equal footing with the "accident" story in terms of likelihood of being true.

I don't buy this shit for one second! How the hell do you clean a pistol with the action closed?? YOU DON'T!!

1. You take out the magazine.

2. You slide the action back to eject a chambered round. *Most* actions lock open automatically, some have a lever you manually lock it open with.

3. You LOOK into the open action to make sure the chamber is clear, then you check it again just to be sure.

4. Always make sure the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction at all times. Never point a firearm at anyone or anything you do not intend to shoot.

As for the safety issue, it's true some pistols do not have manual safeties anymore. They have built in safeties, such as the Kel-Tec 9mm I used to own. For a pistol that weighs less than a pound fully loaded, it has a 5+ pound trigger pull. If I remember correctly, it had a 2 stage trigger pull... the first stage disengaged the safety, then the final pull discharged the weapon.

There is also this:

The baby was threatening him and he was just standing his ground, right? Right?

Whenever I have hands on my shotguns or rifles, I always am hyper-aware if it's loaded or not. I just don't understand how this shit happens.

prevent crap like being shot in the head at close range by a liar cop. Or not.