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Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 03:53 PM Mar 2014

When's the last time you heard of a Western sponsored "coup" where.....

....

*calls for change initially came in the form of mass, street level protests based on demonstrable corruption in the government,

*where no military were involved in removing the leader from power,

*where the leader was not arrested or executed but rather voluntarily left the country on his own accord,

*where the legislative body continued to legislate and actually bothered to vote to remove the abdicating leader from power,

*where an interim leadership based on the constitutional laws of succession took over and explicitly stated that it was merely an interim power,

*where new elections were scheduled to take place in just a matter of several months after the change in power, and....

* where the not-so-unforeseen consequence of the change in power was that the country's more powerful neighbor then chooses invade a portion of the country it sees as valuable to its own interest, thus creating the potential to destabilize the new government, and creating a situation that is clearly to the disadvantage--and definitely not to the advantage--of Western interests?

What kind of lousy Western-sponsored coup is that?

Some of you need to seriously lay off of the tinfoil.

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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When's the last time you heard of a Western sponsored "coup" where..... (Original Post) Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 OP
We had one with most of those characteristics in 2000 here in this Cleita Mar 2014 #1
Not like that. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #3
Kick and friggin' Rec! riqster Mar 2014 #2
I'll give you one thing: 1000words Mar 2014 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author TampaAnimusVortex Mar 2014 #5
did you get the wrong link? Alex_ Mar 2014 #6
It's a CT website. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #7
Definition of Coup d'etat...from Merriam Websters Dictionary. go west young man Mar 2014 #8
regarding point 3 Alex_ Mar 2014 #10
Watch the whole BBC report as the reporter go west young man Mar 2014 #11
"Russians and Ukranians are the same people essentially... this is lost on the West." Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #12
The response is simple. Igel Mar 2014 #15
2004 Haitian coup d'état Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #9
Haiti was a military lead coup where Aristide said he was forcibly removed from power. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #13
Oh, so the US military kidnapped Yanukovych and transferred him geek tragedy Mar 2014 #16
All involved militaries BainsBane Mar 2014 #17
Absolutely which is the sad truth....nt snappyturtle Mar 2014 #21
Somebody told these people that it was CIA and they're Cha Mar 2014 #14
kick functioning_cog Mar 2014 #18
According to Wikileaks, Yatsenyuk himself called for the constitutional court in the past and laws jakeXT Mar 2014 #19
If that's not our man jakeXT Mar 2014 #20

Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Original post)

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
8. Definition of Coup d'etat...from Merriam Websters Dictionary.
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 04:47 PM
Mar 2014

(French: “stroke of state”) Sudden overthrow, often violent, of an existing government by a group of conspirators. Coups are most common in countries with unstable governments and in countries with little experience of successful democracy. Their success depends on surprise and speed. Coups rarely alter a nation's fundamental social and economic policies or significantly redistribute power.

A couple of things:
1) Military is not required for a coup, however, violence often is. Ukraine has plenty of that. Extreme violence.

2) The street level protests were led by the Far right back in early November, hence the level of violence and how quickly it escalated. Those weren't everyday citizens, those were soccer hooligan types. Check the November videos from the LiveLeak website if you have any doubt as to this fact.
3) They didn't execute the leader as he did indeed leave the country but instead they seem to have executed their own protesters.

This BBC link verifies the sniper was behind them in the Hotel Ukraine which was being used by protesters. Got to 2:40 mark in the 2nd video for footage of BBC reporter pointing at the snipers window and specifying which window it is.

4)The new leadership is a mix of Oligarchs, the hard right and a few moderates from the "Fatherland" party...which incidentally was what the Nazi's referred to Germany as.

5) The new elections are being overseen by the Western powers who have a obvious vested interest...regardless of who they are supporting.

6) Russians and Ukranians are the same people essentially... this is lost on the West. Take a look at the history, the geography and the culture...there is almost no difference. The only difference is one group of greedy and obviously violent guys is being replaced by another...in the mean time, the country is broke and regular moderate people are suffering and are sadly going to suffer more regardless of what the West does.

Alex_

(27 posts)
10. regarding point 3
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 05:02 PM
Mar 2014

the protestors did not control Hotel Ukraine (the National Bank of U, another point used by snipers was not under the protestors' control either)

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
11. Watch the whole BBC report as the reporter
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 05:07 PM
Mar 2014

states he is in the Hotel Ukraine surrounded by protesters. They controlled the Hotel and the Hotel with the sniper sighted by the BBC reporter is in the upper window. The BBC reporter clearly states this. Go to the 1:50 mark he states they are using it as a triage center for the wounded. In regards to the sniper he says "I saw the shooter...he was wearing one of the protesters green helmets".

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)
12. "Russians and Ukranians are the same people essentially... this is lost on the West."
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 05:13 PM
Mar 2014

Evidentially, it's lost on most Ukrainians as well. But who are they to have any say on it?

Igel

(35,320 posts)
15. The response is simple.
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 06:36 PM
Mar 2014

Yanukovich should have stayed. Nobody forced him to left. He fled his fears. But he also fled an agreement that his sponsors didn't approve of or initial.

In so doing, he violated the agreement. Once by not signing the legislation he agreed to sign when it was passed--he'd already packed up and left. A second time by not lifting a finger to arrange for the interim government he agreed to. Instead, all he did was quickly denounce everything done, even by the representatives from his own party, as illegal and illegitimate.

He's Morsi. With more corruption and foreign support than Morsi ever had, far more divisive than Morsi ever was, and far less cooperative with sub-constituencies in his own country than Morsi ever was.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
9. 2004 Haitian coup d'état
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 05:01 PM
Mar 2014

Although you have set so many constraints up to create your Ukrainian exception that you can beg out of this one too.

The sorry list of us regime change operations since WWII makes your op ridiculous. Of course we were involved.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)
13. Haiti was a military lead coup where Aristide said he was forcibly removed from power.
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 05:21 PM
Mar 2014

And there was nothing comparable to Russia intervening in that example.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
16. Oh, so the US military kidnapped Yanukovych and transferred him
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 06:44 PM
Mar 2014

out of the country?

Because that would be the only way this is like Haiti.

Cha

(297,322 posts)
14. Somebody told these people that it was CIA and they're
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 05:38 PM
Mar 2014

sticking with that. Who was it.. dennis on fox? Protect putin and rant and rage on the USA.. 'cause you know Russia good/USA bad. edward snowden said so .

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
19. According to Wikileaks, Yatsenyuk himself called for the constitutional court in the past and laws
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 04:53 PM
Mar 2014

proposed by BYuT as a "latent coup d'etat"

*where an interim leadership based on the constitutional laws of succession took over and explicitly stated that it was merely an interim power,



4. (C) Publicly, Yatsenyuk has repeatedly dismissed the need for early elections, saying they won't change anything, and has defended the current coalition, arguing that he won't help terminate it until ordered to by the Constitutional Court. He also told the press on June 6 that he did not think the political situation would change until the fall, when a constructive dialogue could be held. He referred to BYuT's proposed constitutional changes as a "latent coup d'etat" and later rejected attempts to write a new constitution by any party, including the President.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08KYIV1300_a.html


Ukraine: Was Yanukovych’s Ouster Constitutional? – Analysis

...


However, it is not clear that the February 22 hasty vote upholds constitutional guidelines, which call for a review of the case by Ukraine’s Constitutional Court and a three-fourths majority vote by the Verkhovna Rada — i.e., 338 lawmakers.

Pro-Yanukovych lawmakers may also argue that under the 1996 constitution, it should have been the current acting prime minister, Serhiy Arbuzov, to assume power after Yanukovych’s removal.

The 2004 constitution designates the parliamentary speaker as the number-two position.

That discrepancy may soon become irrelevant, with parliament expected to elect a new prime minister no later than February 24. That post is expected to go to either Tymoshenko, fellow Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) member Arseniy Yatsenyuk, or independent lawmaker and chocolate magnate Petro Poroshenko.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/24022014-ukraine-yanukovychs-ouster-constitutional-analysis/
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