I say this as someone on the other age of the spectrum who does not believe, or want, to be forced to have others tell me I must GO seek medicare care, or to Wellness or Preventive tests. Ok, I see ACA as a tax. Maybe I can be forced to have basic health insurance (don't like insurance, period), but when it comes to mandating I must actually participate in it, well NO. It is MY body and MY choice, even as a Senior.

It basically is the same for a young woman and her reproductive rights. Yes, it applies to males also. Your body is yours and nobody elses.

If you grant the government that power, then you've granted the government the power to require abortions as well as the power to forbid them.

nobody seems to remember that! I got very worried when I heard the language of the SCOTUS that allowed states to make laws on abortion said " the state has a right to set policy concerning reproduction".

is of primary importance.

Terminating a pregnancy is a decision that only concerns a woman and her doctor.

Speaking as a man, I feel it is NOT my decision to make. It's up to the woman.

It only concerns a woman.

She may ask her doctor for advice, if she wants. Just like she may ask her husband, priest, or a random passer-by on the street.

will eliminate those nits.

I think my point was clear, but explain to me how a women can have an abortion without consulting a physician.


Till they overthrow Roe Vs Wade, at any rate. Then it'll be back to unlicensed practitioners and women bleeding out in dark alleys again.

My point is the doctor can advise, but the woman is the one who makes the decision.

It isn't what the post says.

A woman can't perform the medical procedure on herself; hence, she must consult with her doctor who will advise her of the medical ramifications.

I'll repeat: Terminating a pregnancy is a decision that only concerns a woman and her doctor.

I find this tiresome. If you insist on deliberately misreading my post, you may continue to think ill of me. I won't counter the same stubborn assertion again.

Always majority male. And they can actually make their orders stick.

The point is our right to control our own bodies, not that men are the only problem.

to take one recent example. Had only white women voted in Virginia's governor race, Cuccinelli would have won a narrow victory. If only men of color, he would have lost by a very comfortable margin. Until the pro choice side figures out how to end that problem there will be considerably more anti choice legislation.

It's not as if there's any shortage of female forced birther politicians, and not everyone looks at it as just one body. I don't happen to agree with that, but it doesn't change the fact that many do both men and women. The idea that it's just men making these choices doesn't line up very well with reality. Abortion is a bigger issue with women than it is with men and as I pointed out, women outnumber men at the ballot box.

My point is: we have the right to own and control our own bodies.

You may, of course, have your own point.

My point is the right has no problem finding forced birther women to run for office, and as the poll I posted demonstrates there's at least as many on the female side of the gender divide if not more. So the idea that there just needs to be more female politicians and the problem would magically get fixed is not a good one. If anything it would get worse.

Last edited Fri Mar 14, 2014, 09:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Woman have been convinced that abortion somehow equals murdering a baby. These pictures you see aren't of a fetus, they are pictures of babies. Because, yet again, rational people have graciously allowed the nutters to frame and define the debate, many young women are easily persuaded that abortion equals murder. That somehow a woman is making a selfish choice. That life begins at conception though the Bible says no such thing. That every baby will be healthy, happy, and well-cared for and that in our age of over-population, every pregnancy is sacred. That the life of a clump of cells is more important than the life of a living woman.

That is one of the reasons they don't want science taught in schools. It is so much easier to jerk people around by their emotions and imagination. Women need to educate women about the importance of access to safe abortions. That a fetus IS NOT A BABY. I find the women who are bravely speaking out about their experience, and "coming out of the closet" of shame that has always surrounded abortion to be a good starting point. Education is the key here.

I feel so sad, but mostly angry how women have been lied to and shamed on this subject. I even sometimes rethink the word "choice" because it leads people to somehow think that this is a selfish thing and that all women should sacrifice themselves for a pregnancy. I know that if every woman in this country knew the facts, the truth, we could shut this argument right down. That is why the fundies have worked so hard to brainwash women. I am very disappointed in "pro-life" democrats because if you peel back the first layer of that position, you see that it is basically anti-woman and puts her life and health far below a fetus.

Both men and women have been convinced of this. Interestingly enough the darling of the right, Ayn Rand, went the other way on this. She believed the rights of the woman trumped whatever rights anyone wants to bestow on a fetus and it's one of the few things in which I agree with her.

The point being those who seek to divide people on this issue on the basis of gender are going about it the wrong way. There just isn't that much difference between the attitudes of men and women on this issue.

than the proportion of the population who is not absolutist.

Essentially, you've posted a poll which shows a small section of the population and used it to argue that it is a proper cross section of the entire population. Which is a silly thing to do.

If you think it was, then you either didn't understand it or you are being disingenuous. This discussion is about public policy decisions, not about what people's general attitude about abortion is. If you rank what is important to people when they pull the lever at the ballot box, abortion is pretty far down on the list unless you are talking about absolutists.

for abortion rights. Which is two things:

1. Fucking ridiculous
2. Demonstrative of a claim that women disproportionately negatively effect the issue of abortion rights. A claim which you have been unable to substantiate.

The claim was that men disproportionately negatively effect the issue of abortion rights, which was never substantiated to begin with. Trying to put the onus on me to disprove something that was never proven to begin with is pretty lame.

"So the idea that there just needs to be more female politicians and the problem would magically get fixed is not a good one. If anything it would get worse."

Utter, fucking nonsense.

Utter egocentric nonsense.

For further reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism

Not because I say so.

Does that mean it's wrong, or are you just trying to win the award for most logical fallacies in a thread?

You are starting to go around in circles and have moved well past my tolerance for banality. Feel free to continue on your own.

Cheers!

I know it must be mind blowing for you to consider that I could possess some sort objective method of analyzing induction.

Not everyone who considers themselves pro-life wants more restrictive abortion laws and not everyone who considers themselves pro-choice wants unfettered access to abortion services. The poll I posted reveals the vast majority of people want legal abortion and only a small majority don't. The people who think abortion should be illegal under all circumstances is decidedly majority female which can't be derived from the poll you posted. Furthermore the majority of people who think abortion should be legal on some level are men which can't be derived from the poll you posted. So which poll do you think is more relevant to the discussion of legal access to abortion?

In fact, I would argue it very rarely is about absolutes. And the poll I posted, being of the same source, is just as valid as yours. Thus, there is some sort of contradiction.

Which is more important? That a larger proportion of women support absolute illegality of abortion or that a larger proportion of men identify as "pro-life?" That's certainly debatable. And because it is debatable, your argument trying to portray women as the greatest source of anti-abortion sentiment isn't particularly strong.

I would argue that, despite a lot of stigma associated with being "pro-choice," because of the historical relevance of decisions like Roe v. Wade, there is also a very strong stigma associated with being absolutely against all legal abortion.

A person who considers themselves pro-life may still value the legal right to abortion and the poll I posted proves the majority do regardless of gender.

My argument isn't to portray women as the greatest source of anti-abortion sentiment. It's to dispel the false notion that the reverse is true. There are other factors which are far more determinate, which the poll I posted also demonstrates.

Directly the product of hegemonic masculinity. Normative masculinity is not essentially man-only. But it is sourced from systemic privilege afforded to men and systemic oppression against women.

To try and argue there isn't a clear connection between female anti-abortion advocacy and male-dominated societal control is to enter the realm of the ridiculous.

It would be like trying to argue that racism against black Americans is somehow not the product of white hegemony. In almost any room, you would be laughed out. Even if you showed statistics demonstrating internalized racism.

And critical theorists, among other groups, because what I've said is child's play compared to the kind of obscurantist rhetoric used by many actual, notable intellectuals.

Nothing I've said is non-sensical or hard to understand.

Also, I've never said anti-abortion sentiment is "all men's fault." In fact, I've argued that it is the fault of hegemonic masculinity, which has the capacity to transcend gender.

You are suggesting that anti-abortion views are due to "internalized misogyny" without ever connecting the dots between those to things, then you are proceding to build a house of cards on that crappy foundation.

People hold anti-abortion views for a variety of reasons. The idea that everyone does because deep down they really hate women is not a good one. At best it's simply a good example of dichotomous thinking, at worst it's egocentrism.

Actually, it's a fantastic Freudian argument.

Where any choice an adult makes that you are for means you are a libertarian (except that one choice).

Dang shame so many do, indeed, either spend so much time and effort trying to legislate what others do or try to shame them.