The latter now always implies the former.

In their 70's and armed with a cane. WTF?

where is all the cowardliness coming from? Have gun, will shoot anything that moves and blame it on imminent threat.

We have a country full of weak minded, cowardly, angry officers who are uneducated in the basics of enforcement if the basics are still taught at all anymore. Maybe they do away with that because a gun is soooo much easier to pull without thinking... and it saves paperwork, the courts just throw the complaints out.

That is the basics that they are taught.

where cops pretty much have to assume that anyone they interact with is potentially armed, you do not reach for anything while in the vicinity of a police officer if you don't want to get shot.

In the name of "freedom", the gun humpers have helped to bring us to the brink of a police state. And their guns aren't doing a damned thing to protect them from it either. It's no wonder that they're being so heavily funded by the Koch brothers and ALEC. A gun saturated society is the quickest pathway to the police state that corporate interests want in this country.

As much as we may all rant and rave about how terrible the cops and the judicial system are, this situation is not going to change, at least not for the better.

It's too bad that an old guy got caught in the intersection between the corporatist agenda and the American gun culture.

It's obvious that the officer believed it was a long barreled gun, and it's also how distraught he is once he finds out it wasn't a gun. Why did the man get out of the truck in the first place? Why did he then reach for something that appeared to be a long barreled gun out of the back of his pick up? Had he just stayed in the truck as anyone pulled over by the police knows to do he wouldn't have been shot. And the officer DID shout out to him to stop reaching for what he thought was a long barreled gun, and he didn't. He actually started shouting before the man ever reached into his pick up bed and when he noticed the guy had gotten out of the pick up and started walking in his direction. I'm having a hard time believing that someone who needs a cane to walk would keep it in the bed of their truck in the first place and not in the front.

How anyone can listen to that and not see how upset the officer was and his crying once he found out that what he obviously sincerely believed was a long barreled gun was only a cane wasn't listening. It's sad all the way around, and I can't fault the officer believing his cane was a long barreled gun, and it's obvious that he did believe that it was.

Here's a guy that inexplicably got out of their vehicle when you aren't supposed to, was shouted at by the officer to stop yet still walks to the back of the truck and pulls what appeared to the officer to be a long barreled shotgun out of the bed of the truck. Sadly, the object in hindsight turned out to be not a gun but a cane, and the man would have been just fine if he'd just stayed in the damn truck when he was pulled over as anyone knows to do and what officers tell you to do, not ignored the officers shouted warnings and continued on to the back of the truck to pull out a thing that appeared to be a long barreled gun.

Every time one of these stupid and paranoid cops shoots an innocent, the jurisdiction should be sued for 100's of millions and win. Eventually only intelligent cops would be hired, not gun happy idiots.

We (and I mean communities) have decimated our police forces. There used to be a time when cops patrolled in pairs for safety. Now many communities can hardly afford one police officer in their car let alone two.

It's a traffic stop at night, the man gets out of his truck, he reaches for something in the bed of his truck...and what's more likely to be in the bed of a truck--a gun or a cane? The officer warned him and the man continued. Had the cane been a rifle, the cop could have been dead (though I think there are many on DU who would be okay with that).

Not all cops are bad. Not all citizens are good and this situation is definitely not a black & white one where it's obvious the cop was a "gun happy idiot" like some cases we see. I'd guess this officer, who sounded quite young, was truly scared 'cause when people go through the academy, they are told dozens of horror stories about night stops going bad.

And have no knowledge of what current police procedure had degenerated into.

I sure as hell don't. Guns are often stolen and the back of a pick up is a likely place for that to happen.

I live in the country and don't know of anyone who would put the gun in the back of the truck to get wet or snowed upon. Maybe in the rear window inside the cab, but NEVER in the back.

You don't start shooting until you see a weapon and it is being aimed at you. The cop had the advantage of being able to have his weapon ready and aimed. He easily could have fired WHEN he saw a weapon being trained upon him. He THOUGHT there was a weapon and started shooting like a scared little child. If we are going to arm police, they should be TRAINED to fire ONLY when threatened.

The cop failed and this kind of paranoid, cowardly killing of innocent citizens needs to be stopped now.

to call someone "stupid and paranoid" when one isn't actually in that person's situation.

It has nothing to do with intelligence, or lack of it.


so, like I would ask anybody who thinks they could do a better job in a profession than someone else...by virtue of their being "smarter" or whatever...

I'm assuming you're not a cop, correct?

Why not?

The way I figure it is, anyone who thinks s/he could do a better job because of being smarter and less paranoid, it's probably their fault there are so many "stupid and paranoid" people in certain professions.

Hey...get out there and show them how it should be done!

There is no reason to be sure I don't have any personal experience with such a situation.

A certain fact, this cop shot someone who did NOT point a weapon at him or pose any threat to him. The cop was in the wrong and if the investigation is honest, he should be relieved of duty and the victims compensated.

Maybe calling him stupid was a bad assumption, but he did not show the fortitude and quick decision making needed for the job.

for anyone to say he "did not show the fortitude and quick decision making needed for the job" is oversimplifying it a whole lot.

You can say that because you are viewing it from the comfort of your own safe home or workplace.

It's a whole different story out there in the streets.


It's even different in a training exercise, as I found out over 30 years ago when I thought might want to have a career in law enforcement.

My class was taken to a local police department where we were taken into the basement and lined up against the walls. The light were turned out. Then we heard noises...running footsteps, and the lights were turned back on and we were faced with a stranger pointing an object at us. We were then asked what the guy looked like, did he have a weapon, and how many of us would have shot the guy.

It was just an exercise, but let me tell you, the adrenaline and fear were high.

I will never forget that. And that's why, even though some would want to call me an "apologist", I understand what it must be like out on those streets where real...sometimes crazy...people have real guns.

The victim was pulled over for an expired license. He could see the victim and could have determined a weapon being pointed at him. Instead of preparing to fire if a valid threat was approaching him, he shot first and cried later.

I'm just not explaining this properly.


OK, it's a traffic stop at night. The cop tells the man stop. The man doesn't listen or can't hear him. Now, what do you do if you're a cop who tells someone to stop? Take 15 seconds to debate with yourself over the reason why he didn't stop?


What you see on the video may not have been what that cop saw, or was able to see that night.


Now, YOU may not feel the man was a valid threat, but again, watching that video you already know he's not. The cop doesn't.

It's dark and he's never known anyone to pull a cane out of the bed of a truck. Neither have I, for that matter, but anyway...

It was a tragic accident.

And again, I say for anyone who thinks they could do a better job...

Go ahead and do it.

Go ahead, people, and be a better teacher, cop, president, whatever.

Then come back and tell us all how easy it was.

Send a message.

But that sort of oversimplifies the issue. One doesn't need to be a paranoid freak to be unfit for the responsibility of being a cop. I think that many ordinary, reasonable people would, if put in the same situation, would have perceived the man to be reaching for a gun and reacted the way the cop did. The problem is that cops aren't regular, ordinary people. They have a responsibility for more than their own life. When they believe they might be seconds away from being shot, they need to be restrained and level-headed enough to take an extra second to make absolutely sure.

This cop failed to uphold that duty. It doesn't make him a thrill killer, or even a bad person necessarily, but it does call into question whether he should be in this line of work.

A sad situation where everything went wrong for everyone. Feel bad for the man and feel bad for the cop as well.

And I particularly like how you managed to blame the victim in your concluding paragraph.

Maybe the victim was deaf and couldn't hear what the cop was saying. Maybe he's suffering from early-stage Alzheimer's, or from some other medical condition that made it difficult for him to understand what other people say. Maybe he didn't speak English, or speak it very well.

But let's not entertain those possibilities, especially not if we're a cop. No, let's assume a 70-year-old driver is about to unleash massive firepower. Let's just shoot first and ask upset, distraught questions later, and maybe intersperse them with lots of sad crying.

Maybe this cop can get some tips on sad crying from family members of his victim.

and when you shoot. Thanks.

My weapon would be aimed. As soon as the gun came into view and was being raised, I would have fired.

This cop failed to prepare for an obvious threat. The hand behind the back and advancement after being warned was a dead give away.

I am not applying for a job as a law enforcement office, nor am I taking a range certification course as part of my employment with a law enforcement agency. Nor am I beta-testing a video game, and it is not incumbent on me to prove that I would know better or react in accordance with professional standards.

Oh, but that wasn't the point was it? The point was to remind me that cops on occasion have to make split-second decisions. Well, yes, I was already familiar with that fact.

Let's look instead at what seems to be the default position for police interactions with people they stop, question or want to talk to:

Old man gets cane out of back of truck - shoot him!

Air Force enlisted man involved in highway fender-bender, standing with hands in the air and his wallet in one hand - shoot him!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024662397

Teenage boy in his own home is holding a Wii game controller - shoot him!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017176691

Mentally ill man stands up from chair - shoot him!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023918940

Parkinson patient's service dog barks at cop - shoot it!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024483905

After raiding wrong house in middle of night, 80-year-old man in bed raises gun against intruders - shoot him! (As it turned out, the cops commanded him to drop his weapon after they'd already shot him, but they did find two pot plants):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017176350

Homeowner traps armed intruder in his bedroom - shoot him (six times)!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=139x6519

Father calls cops on son to "teach him a lesson", son refuses to turn off truck - shoot him!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023996506

19-year old stopped as suspect in carjacking, unarmed, with hands in the air - shoot him!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014684859

Unarmed homeless man calls female cop "bitch" - shoot him!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023432240

90-pound teenager suffering from schizophrenia refuses to drop small screwdriver - shoot him!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024442162

during a traffic stop, this cop also tells them not to, etc, etc.

Other than being a very similar situation to the case being discussed, "nothing" at all. Kind of like if you bet on heads and the coin comes up tails, the back side of the coin has nothing to do with the front side, except that it is not what you want to see right now.

#reality

He inexplicably put himself into a situation where any officer would think he was behaving dangerously. You don't get out of your vehicle when pulled over by the police and they TELL you not to. You don't ignore the police when they shout at you to stop whatever it is you're doing, and you don't reach for something in the bed of your truck that is easily confused for the barrel of a long gun.

Of course you don't care what the officer thought or felt when in hindsight he found out that the cane was not the gun he honestly and LEGITIMATELY believed it was. The majority on DU believe that no officer ever does anything right or that legitimately threatening people ARE legitimately threatening because of the ridiculous universal cop hatred that's been allowed to flourish here at least since I came here a decade ago. The majority of DU believes that cops should just allow themselves to be attacked before doing anything to protect themselves, and if they get killed well tough shit for them and their families. That they aren't even human with normal human fears and emotions, and the only decent cop is one that saves a kitten or other cute animal, but of course all the rest of the time he/she must be some kind of monster. Maybe it comes as a surprise to you but I think such beliefs are absurd and hugely bigoted. Unlike the cop hating contingent here I'm capable of looking at any case on it's merits and NOTHING else. I have no problem whatsoever criticizing any police officer when the MERITS of a situation warrant it... you know, like normal thinking people that don't have such a gargantuan ax to grind. Don't like it? Tough.

he had a gun before opening fire with the man's wife sitting in the truck? She is lucky she wasn't shot also. There was a case of a teen being shot because he had a game controller in his hand.

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/02/19/attorney-teen-shot-killed-by-police-was-holding-wii-video-game-controller/

or actually fires a gun at them. There's no question whatsoever that this officer believed the thing the man was taking out of his pick up bed was a long barreled gun, and he had every legitimate reason to believe that it was because of everything the man did in getting out of his vehicle, ignoring the officer's shouts to stop and pulling what he most certainly believed was a long barreled gun out of the bed of his pick up and would have appeared to be a long barreled gun by the average person in that situation. What if it was a gun just as the officer believed? How long does he have to watch and wait when he is sure that the object is a gun already before doing something about it? In a cop's experience when someone they pull over gets out of their vehicle and starts walking toward you it's trouble. When they ignore you and pull something out of their vehicle that appears to be a weapon, and they have every belief that it is at the time just how long are they supposed to wait and do nothing before being shot at?

All of this man's actions were stupid the first one being getting out of his vehicle, and he escalated the situation from there by his own actions. Everyone knows that when you get pulled over by a cop you DON'T get out of your vehicle especially when they TELL you not to before going back to their cruiser to write the ticket.

I don't care about whatever the case is of a teen being shot because of a game controller in his hand. What the hell does that have to do with THIS case? Not a fucking thing. How is it that I seem to be the only one here that is open minded and judges any case - if that's even possible with the given information - on nothing but its own merits? The merits of THIS case in question is a man that did everything wrong and gave the officer every reason to believe that he was pulling a long barreled weapon out of the bed of his truck. It's very sad that his own actions got himself shot. Had he not done these inexplicable things he wouldn't have been.

Police aren't mind readers, and their training and experience tells them what is a dangerous situation. Not being a cop if for some reason this guy was parked in front of me, got out of his vehicle and started toward me despite my shouts to stop and went ahead and pulled what appeared to be a long barreled gun out of his truck bed I'd also believe that's what it was and have been shitting my pants with every belief that I was about to be shot or otherwise attacked. The very last thing I would have imagined he'd be pulling out of his truck bed would be a walking cane.

Why was his wife in the passenger seat lucky she wasn't also shot? She wasn't DOING anything that merited any fear in the cop and was no where near her husband when he was shot... there was no reason to shoot her, and with the firearms training they get they can sure as hell easily miss shooting someone that far away from the target. Had he shot so wildly far from the target in weapons training he wouldn't have been issued a weapon in the first place. At least she was smart enough to keep her ass in her seat, not get out of the vehicle, not ignore shouts to stop nor reach into the truck bed and pull out what appeared to be a long barreled weapon.

in my opinion it would be safer for everyone involved if the person did exit their vehicle upon being pulled over to show they have no weapon and nothing beside them in the seat or whatever. Now you asked "why was his wife in the passenger seat lucky she wasn't shot also?" I don't know might have something to do with the rounds bouncing off the truck.

oh, so now cops should do nothing until someone aims a gun at them
.
The combat troops in Iraq and now in Afghanistan and even when I was in Vietnam in 1968 have to abide by rules of engagement. In built up populated areas in Vietnam the GI lived with a do not shoot unless shot at ROE, even if they were openly carrying a weapon. Afghanistan ROE has morphed into the same insane rules. One has to ask why a US citizen within our own borders are not afforded the same rules just going about our day to day business. In the video the mans advanced age was apparent, the fact that it was a cane was visibly apparent, but for an expired license plate this gentleman gets what's left of his life changed forever. At some point your local law enforcement training is going to have to stop seeing every citizen as a combatant enemy. If these officers are so scared for their lives in street duty compared to a soldier on patrol in a combat zone that has more fire discipline than you would expect to see. Then that officer is in the wrong line of work. Just as I see it from an ex infantryman and an ex cop perspective that has been in both roles.

NOBODY keeps a rifle in the bed of their truck! The excuses around here make me want to

I would expect a rifle before I'd expect a cane in the back of someone's truck.

after my knee surgery, I kept my walking stick in the back of my truck for the simple reason that it did not fit well in the cab. I'd get out of my truck, reach into the bed and grab my walking stick. clearly I'm not the only person that has ever done that.

I broke my knee as a result of an accident and kept my crutches in the bed of my truck when needing to go somewhere.

This cop was a failure and feared the unknown to the point of paranoia. He should have prepared to stop a threat, not killed the chance of a threat.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

nt

I just cannot watch the video again.

because later in the video it shows the cop apologizing to the man and the man is replying and it appears neither one is having trouble hearing the other.

You don't understand until you get close and address each other directly (personal testimony). That may well be why the old man was trying to approach the police officer.

All I know is that I live with someone who is only slightly hearing impaired and he often can't hear me even when I'm sitting less than three feet away.


Or it's possible he's just pretending not to hear me...ha ha!

So yeah, that might well be the case.

But it does mean you have to make an effort to understand what is being said to you in many situations: noisy places, like beside a highway for example

people were expected to get out of their cars when pulled over by police. This man may have been taught to do that and forgot, or didn't even know, that things have changed.

Last edited Fri Mar 14, 2014, 05:35 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm not a big fan of cops, but I kinda feel for him.

and also the high school kid who was going to join the Marines and was shot and killed because he had a game controller in his hand. These are the type of people I feel for.

The cop in this video made a mistake. This is the first time I've actually believed that to be true.

I'm from AZ. Home of arpaio. I've been a guest of his. No love lost for cops....
.

He is armed and supposedly trained. You call it a mistake and that may be true but after pulling the trigger it's kind of tough to say ooops. Pull your gun and there had better be a reason.

nt

There was a reason to prepare to pull his weapon, or even pull his weapon.

There was no reason to fire. No weapon was pointed at him or another person. Even if he thought it might have been a rife, it was not pointed at him, so the officer had time to warn the man, or take a closer look at what was coming out of the truck.

So an officer has to wait for a gun to be pointed at them before they can take action?

They have a split second to react....

There has to be a direct threat. So there either has to be a gun pointed at him, or someone raising a gun to point it at him.

The danger of not waiting for that is illustrated in this video.

Is it riskier for the cop? Hell yes. But the point of having police is to keep the people safe, not to keep the police officers safe. "Shoot first, ask questions later" is not how police can operate in a civilized society.

I am generally suspicious of the motivation when I hear of cops shooting citizens. But, in this case the officer seems truly remorseful when he figures out the horrible mistake he has made.

So no that excuse does not fly with anyone. I guess whatever it takes to sleep better at night.

known anyone who used a cane who left it in the bed of his truck.

So it's a wash, isn't it...

you obviously have never owned a gun or a truck.

All the officer yells is SIR SIR then he opens fire.
After the shot he gave verbal directions to drop the gun

hell could mistake that for a gun? Where is the forearm or the pump? Where is the wooden butt stock?? He never even had two hands on it, pointing it at the officer like it was a weapon.

I don't know about where this happened, but where I live in Tennessee, and when I lived in Florida and Georgia, the cops called in your plate number before they stopped you... and waited until info for the registered owner, including name, address and D.O.B. to come back, along with any wants or warrants, then the officer would initiate a stop, telling dispatch if the tag matched the vehicle, and also gave the location of the stop in case anything happened during the stop. At least they'd know where to start looking if they didn't hear back from the officer never responded back and they couldn't raise them up. They started this in most, if not all States, a long time ago, after too many officers were shot during routine traffic stops and dispatch didn't know their exact location.

I don't care *how* "distraught" the officer was after the fact, either. The main fact is that he was too trigger happy in the first place. He shot first, then yelled "drop the gun!" Of course, the pig has already been cleared of any wrong doing and it was deemed a "good shoot" by his superiors. I think they should have a citizens panel to review shootings because the "thin blue line" protects their own. they think they are better than us and are above the law.

Peace,

Ghost

citizens are more hateful and our nation is more dangerous.

Scary as all hell

When did we become such monsters that cops shoot on site with no warning? Are we THAT BAD?

Simple, direct, and brutal.

And it was also obvious that this was an old man who wasn't able to walk very well.

That's what he expected to see, so that's what he did see.

that's probably what happened.


It's not a stretch to believe that, especially judging from the fairly constant incidents right here at DU where people "hear" what they want to hear.

And that's with the benefit of being able to read and re-read posts multiple times before replying.

In a situation involving a traffic stop, a cop doesn't have that chance.

Split second decision. And it could be that in a heightened state of mental arousal...i.e. lots of adrenaline and a bit of fear, even though it's a routine traffic stop...he might have "seen" a gun.

I feel badly for everyone involved.

AKA those who say they know it's a cane...

You "know" it's a cane because:


1. You already know you're going to see a cane

2. You want to see a cane

3. You're sitting there in the comfort of your own home, not having to make a split second decision as to whether or not someone has a deadly weapon


I watched that video a few times, with an open mind.

I could not tell what the hell that guy was pulling out of the back of his pickup.

and I'm not even in the situation dealing with adrenaline.


Oh, and PS...did anyone bother watching that video all the way through?

The cop breaks down in tears at the end apologizing over and over. It's likely he might be so traumatized by accidentally shooting an innocent citizen that he may never go back to his job. Which would be unfortunate, because he doesn't seem like the type who would use his position to brutalize others. It was a tragic accident, although it looks like the old guy will probably be OK.

We understand that there should actually be a series of steps before a police officer fires his gun. It is not "stand there" -> "fire".

The video shows that the officer should have, at most, drawn his weapon. The "rifle" was not pointed at him, or any other person. He did not need to fire yet.

n/t

BUT not the cop! Pretty pathetic. I hope the cop gets fired and never works again in law enforcement, OBVIOUSLY he is a danger to society with a shield and a gun to hide behind.

holding the man "responsible".

Where is anyone saying he deserved to be shot?

Why did he get out of the truck?

anybody just put (throw) their rifle or shotgun in the bed of a truck? That is just crazy. I have carried a cased gun in the bed but if I didn't have a case, the gun would have been in the cab. And just how many cops have been shot during a stop with a rifle? It's the assholes with the handgun that usually pop them as they walk up to the window.

For I do not have any hides to spare.

But

##$$%%% $$%%%#^ $$%%#& Cops $%%#%@@ Murderers.

...could have easily been my Dad. He'd be slow to react and reaching for a cane too.

Hard to believe --but this is shoot first, ask Q later Murka.

That means I sit still in the car; I don't reach for anything but my wallet; and I make sure the officer knows that's all I'm doing. I wish it were otherwise, but it's not.

only then do I remove my hand to roll down the window, then they're back on the wheel. I don't reach for my glove box until the officer requests registration and proof of insurance. I'm not taking any chances with these fuckers.

Even though I'm in Canada and the police aren't nearly as trigger-happy I have a personal rule never to startle or upset anyone carrying a gun. It's worked for me so far.

I don't even reach for my wallet until the cop asks to see my ID. I live in Miami, FL. The cops will beat the shit out of you if they even think you looked at them wrong.

Bobby, WTF?

Cop must feel terrible

You spend enough time preaching about all the threats coming after them. And eventually they see everyone around them as some homicidal maniac. Yes Soverign's are out there, but they are also rare.