Btw, here is an extended version of that interview:

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/interview-with-witness-of-sanford-teen-shooting/vGYPW/

I feel for her - with Trayvon being killed right in her back yard. That is the stuff of nightmares. It was really stunning to hear her account of how the Sanford PD blew off witness accounts - the night of the murder AND in the followup calls TO them about it.

She has every right to be concerned with the fact that Zimmerman is not in jail, potentially still living in his Dad's house in her neighborhood and with an active CCW and who knows what weapons available to him.

to that interview. She was close enough to get a good grasp of what had happened.

I had read somewhere that Zimmerman had moved out of the neighborhood, but like the witness said, there are so many rumors going around, so who knows.

with the witnesses' house (where Treyvon died) being in the middle of the pedestrian-only access really makes the impact.

posted yesterday. He could have called 911 after a scuffle, as he was trying to get home.

She described how other neighbors spoke of the fight at the end of the block, but Trayvon was killed in the middle of the block, pedestrian-only access.

Plenty of time to make (or at least initiate) that call after the initial fight and the call with the GF disconnecting.

Zimmerman and the Sanford PD.

had cops done their job, as Ms. Crutcher mentioned other neighbors having called 911, altercation of some sort apparently occurring near her home, and finally her own witnessing of zimmerman standing over Trayvon, after she heard 'cries' of some sort.

After a certain amount of time evidence gets 'cold,' especially considering confusion resulting from media, gossip and rumors, so neighbors who actually saw and heard altercation lose their ability to be certain of what they actually saw and heard. (And eyewitness evidence is generally unrealiable.)

HENCE, zimmerman is likely to be able to avoid conviction, IF he were to be charged, JUST BECAUSE OF SHODDY POLICE WORK, imo.

Considering their history of *actively* looking the other way when the victim is black..

and I suspect that public pressure will go pretty far in seeing that it is addressed.

tainting their recollections & possibly compromising justice for Trayvon's family, but then, the fact that this case has risen so significantly in the public eye could just as well work against Zimmerman. What the witnesses saw & heard are likely to stay locked in their minds since this case has been so well exposed. I hope that's the case.

of the entire story. I'm imagining how many neighbors, other than Ms. Crutcher, actually witnessed some of this, and what the final puzzle really looks like. Unless they made statements, written or otherwise, shortly after the events, without being diluted by time, others, media, rumors, etc., THE TRUTH may never come out.

Unfortunately the confusion works for zimmerman.

I noticed that a lot of idiots have been saying "why was a young kid out so late" and one even stated he was out at 11pm. I never knew the time this occurred.

If they did, Zimmerman would have had his license pulled, firearm confiscated, and offered a stay at the steel bar hotel.

They didn't do anything a reasonable person would have done at the scene. There is no other explanation that makes sense.

The Martin family's lawyer was on Amy's show last week. She said that when she initially spoke to the state attorney, he told her he was working up the self defense case, not a murder case. So, whatever is going on in Sanford, it reaches into the state house.

That's my guess.



A less snarky answer is that not knowing exactly what happened, they dropped some evidence in a bag and dropped it on the desk of the prosecutor before heading out for a donut, figuring the prosecutors will sort it all out and tell them who to arrest.

I'm to the point now where I want the entire Sanford PD on trial for dereliction of duty, city manager fired, and anyone else involved in this cover-up to be run out of Florida on a rail. The entire affair is just sickening to me.

I wonder if any of the locals have been in contact with the prosecutor who should have dealt with the case, throughout all of this?

ever since the report on Dateline that showed what we see is largely based on expectations, IOW, our eyes miss a lot of shit.

interesting report.

several neighbors who had seen and heard things, which collectively could provide a reliable picture of what actually occurred.

Seen pacalo's more lengthy interview?

Who those people were, and where they were calling from can easily be put together with the time of the calls to get a picture. Then the call Trayvon made, that is what I want to hear. I want to know if he is on the call when he is screaming and gets shot.

by police? The calls themselves are important and could be somewhat probative, but the callers must be interviewed, exactly why they called, what they saw/heard.

And of course, Trayvon's call could inform about what was going on, and along with neighbor's calls, would fill in a time-line.

Some thread I was reading mentioned two that someone had read.

not aware that police reports had been released but haven't read EVERYTHING about this.

Thanks.

It seems as if the PD didn't want to know.

The Sanford PD had Martin's cell phone.

Not incompetent rather police complicit in a criminal coverup of what looks to me an execution.

Scores of deaths and little attention given to the cases, just another case number. But this was a small town, IMHO.

And the woman in the video says she called repeatedly. That's why I say they didn't want to know. I'm feel that it was done to facilitate Zimmerman's escape. The least they could have done was to take the man's gun away while they investigated this. That's what they do to a cop, don't they, to see if the facts check out in a death?

This was so callous, leaving his parents to worry, and they had called to make a missing person's report. There is so much wrong with this. It can't get resolved fast enough.

Next concern: what will happen if the gun man is never found? What will change? Will the media attention die down and it be forgotten?

See this interview with Trayvon's father..

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.htm

sounds more like just over 24 hours and the Sanford pd responded by car to his Dad and had Martin's picture.

The two calendar days was correct and I did not write "3" but "2".

The Sanford PD had his cell phone.

Thank you for the correction and better detail as I almost did type 3 days so you must have read my mind and uncertainty when I typed the post.

I would say that it's less than 24 hours, at least based on that article..

[div class='excerpt']The next morning, when he woke up, Tracy realized that Trayvon had not returned home. "I started making calls, and I reached my nephew," Martin says. "He said he hadn't seen Trayvon. Then I really started getting worried. So I called the Sheriff's department to file a missing persons report. I let them know it hadn't been 24 hours, but it was unusual for Trayvon not to return home."

Shooting was at 7pm, he wakes up the next morning, starts to worry, eventually calls the cops, tells them it's been less than 24 hours.. they pull up shortly after.

Don't really know whether that was still in the morning, afternoon, or what.

the morning of Feb 27th, the day after the shooting. So, no thanks to their efforts, it was about 15 to 16 hours after he was pronounced dead on Feb 26th at 7.30 PM. The initial reports that it took two to three days were incorrect. I thought that also, until I read the police report. Some of the reporting on this story, especially the early reporting has been as sloppy as the Police 'Investigation'.

says you can shoot someone if you get scared; then wing nuts, with all their paranoia, should never have guns.

whether Zimmerman identified himself as neighborhood watch. For all Martin may have known Zimmerman was out to attack him.

At one point, Trayvon asked Zimmerman "Why are you following me?" and instead of responding that he was with Neighborhood Watch, Zimmerman accusingly asks Trayvon "What are you doing here?" --further escalating the situation.

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/03/17/trayvon_martin_911_calls_raise_uestions_about_whether_george_zimmerman_acted_in_self_dfense.html

She heard some things, and that is all interesting, but how can she be called an "eye" witness?

And since Zimmerman is claiming to be the one who was crying for help, what Mary heard is very key. She's convinced that it was Trayvon whom she heard. She may not have seen the actual shooting, but she saw enough from watching through her window to provide some important elements to the incident.

and that there was no more physical fighting going on at that point. Zimmerman then followed Martin to her yard where she heard the cry's for help and then the gun shot.

Thanks for the thread, Quixote.

Because that took place three houses away. What she witnessed took place just after the scuffle. She said Zimmerman chased Trayvon to her yard where he shot him - after the scuffle. She can be a very damaging witness to Zimmerman.

to make some coffee, her kitchen window was opened, & she said she heard "whining" & a cry for help.

The other witnesses heard Zimmerman crying for help, and she heard Trayvon crying for help in her yard.

His name is "John" a "secret" witness who won't talk to the media.

She doesn't say she saw who was crying for help, or that she saw anybody run (which is what she implies, since she appears to say that fight took place in a different location). I don't think there is any witness on any of the 911 calls that mentions anyone running.

what they saw/heard/did? I haven't.

She seemed pretty clear about NOT making assumptions, stating that there were a lot of rumors and media affecting the the witnesses. Tho the sound was low and I couldn't tell, interviewer may have been asking her to go further than she felt she reasonably could do.

She said she heard 'the little boy' crying/whimpering, when they were under her window (and the little boy was under zimmerman,) I think.

She heard the little boy crying/whimpering, he was under her window, and she saw him under zimmerman. She didn't say she saw anyone 'screaming.'

I say screaming because that's what I hear on 911 calls before the shot is fired.
I mean, the screams are pretty loud if I can hear them on 911 calls.

Do you know she also says Zimmerman was yelling for help? Do you know why she didn't hear Zimmerman yelling for help? Because this took place several houses away. Do you know why she said she knows the boy was crying? Because he ran to her yard from where Zimmerman was yelling (several houses away) where Zimmerman chased him down and shot him dead. The cry right before this shot (in her yard) was that of the boy. Two locations. One where Zimmerman was crying and one where the boy was crying.

I'm a little confused by people not picking up on this.

She also doesn't claim she saw anyone running to her yard.
So what exactly are you confused about?

She "heard". A witness can hear stuff too, to be a witness. She is not saying the eyewitness is wrong in saying it was Zimmerman crying. She also says it was Zimmerman crying. Most of the witnesses are going on hearing anyway. What exactly did this eyewitness see that told him he saw Zimmerman yelling anyway?

know which one was screaming?

You don't need to know two people fighting if one is a man and the other is a woman. You know the man's voice without seeing him. The same as you would know a teens voice over an adult males voice.

I don't give a flying fuck what she saw versus what she heard. (Actually I do becuase it is another witness that contradicts Zimmerman)

The point is that there was a fight that occured a good 50 yards away, from the layout of the complex it is obvious that Zimmerman walked away from his truck and continued to stalk Martin before executing him. There is no defense of his actions, additionally the entire Sanford police department should be relieved of duty until this is resolved.

Edit to be clear: In no way do I mean to disparage Ms. Cutcher's statement. She made assumptions that Zimmerman would be arrested, only to find out he was released, knew where she lived and what she looked like. My annoyance is with statements that she didn't "see" anything.

not incompetent, Sanford PD.

Then they put Martin on ice as a Jon Doe.

A witness

Like I always say - it is very easy to be convinced of something you already believe.

The account in that video is very unconvincing to me. She does not even say where she was and what she saw. She presents only her own conclusions rather than eyewitness accounts. "I know this was not self defense." Okay, fine, HOW do you know that? Tell me what you saw amd when you saw it. To coin a phrase "just the facts, ma'am."

No question about it. And if it lines up with the other witnesses it may be enough for a conviction. The video didn't convince me of something I already believed it completely changed my mind as I thought Zimmerman killed Martin because he was getting his ass kicked not after the fight three houses down when Martin was crying for help.

On edit, check out the other video posted above which has the whole interview.

I hope you never EVER wind up serving on a jury whose responsibility is to determine who lives and serves a long sentence, and who dies.

You're fucking KIDDING, right? You'd base a value decision resulting in the jailing and possible EXECUTION of an American Citizen on a YOUTUBE video?

Fuck me, I PRAY you never end up on a jury.

You stated that in YOUR mind, "Zimmerman killed Martin in cold blood", and you based your belief on a Youtube video.

If you were asked during voir dire, and stated in response that you "came to a hunch" based on what you saw in a YOUTUBE video, would you be insulted if you were dismissed from the jury "for cause"?

"That's what the INTERNET is for."

As a potential JUROR, that sentence FUCKING TERRIFIES me.

Yes, the title is poorly worded but the body shows I was putting forth a hunch and not making absolute statements. I think what she said about the fight being over and things moving to her yard where Martin begins to cry for help is an extremely important point that had not been made before and I believe it needs to be looked at more closely and I will not be silenced for thinking it should be pointed out. Because if true it would mean he probably was shot in cold blood and not because Zimmerman was defending himself.

to begin with. I was powerfully struck by what she had said about the scuffle being over. If the two of them were simply facing one another in her yard at that point and Trayvon was crying for help, what other conclusion could one come to? If other witnesses say the same thing that would be pretty damming. I personally would not be able to convict Zimmerman of murder unless someone witnessed that actual act but man slaughter, yes. But it sure sounds like he gunned down Martin out of anger and not because his life was in danger. However, other witness accounts could persuade me in different directions.

WE ALL HATE WHAT ZIMMERMAN DID.

Can we, as would happen in a court of law, STIPULATE to that?

AND hate what it appears the police did not do.

Without proper police work, there can be NO trial, and it appears to me that we here are hoping for a trial to be possible.

Each of the witnesses, 911 callers, everyone's cell phones, all possible physical evidence, should be compiled, so the puzzle of the events can be completed. Unless and until that happens, there can't be a trial, AND its possible that, at this late stage, the evidence will have been so tainted, by time and media and rumor that little of it will stand.

zimmerman benefits from all of this >>> 'reasonable doubt.'

...what others are angry at

They have 'lost it' and now are convinced all liberals are coming for their guns!! I WISH I was kidding, but was just told that in another thread...pathetic ain't it?

INTERESTING, we DUers, as a handicapped jury.

See y'all!