.....at that. No surprise, btw, they'd pull some dishonest shit like this. EOM

funny, I seem to hear a lot of crap from teatards telling me how liberalism is actually fascism. Has a similar reality disconnect ring to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Russia

I do believe that's a tad inaccurate, though: it seems they're more hard-right overall than right of center.

BTW I'm amazed that the people of Crimea would turn down all the wonderful benefits the EU has to offer them, such as austerity. They just don't know what's good for us... er, them!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/20/daily-show-russia-republican-paradise_n_4822942.html

And the US State Department had very little to nothing to do with the protests in Ukraine or with the kleptocratic Yanukovych being removed from office.

More than "probably" I'd say..

Svitlana Zalischuk states..

“The referendum itself doesn’t mean anything,” she added, noting that the choice was between “yes and yes,” and didn’t give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. “You can’t conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.”

The Fight for Democracy in Ukraine: A Conversation with Center UA’s Svitlana Zalischuk

BY Micah L. Sifry

“In the third and last part of our conversation, I asked Zalischuk about the referendum about to take place in Russian-occupied Crimea and the massive Russian troop presence across the border from eastern Ukraine. “Russian invaded Ukraine,” she said, mincing no words about Vladimir Putin’s actions in the wake of Yanukovych’s departure from office. “The referendum itself doesn’t mean anything,” she added, noting that the choice was between “yes and yes,” and didn’t give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. “You can’t conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.”

This is not a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, she said, it’s a conflict between the civilized world and totalitarianism, one that undermines the whole architecture of the European and world community. I asked her about the idea that the democracy movement in Ukraine was mostly strongest in the western part of the country and not so much from the eastern half, where Yanukovych got the majority of votes. She said the picture was more complicated, because Yanukovych himself had campaigned in favor of stronger ties with Europe when he was running for president.”

http://techpresident.com/news/wegov/24827/fight-democracy-ukraine-conversation-center-uas-svitlana-zalischuk

Timothy Snyder: Freedom in Russian exists only in Ukraine

In Ukraine, millions of Russian-speakers read a free press and learn from an uncensored internet

snip//

"Putin claims that he is defending the rights of speakers of Russian in Ukraine. He has used this argument to justify his invasion of Crimea and the electoral theatre of yesterday, a “referendum” in which there was no way to vote against union with Russia.

Among the speakers of Russian in Crimea are the Crimean Tatars, whose historical memory is dominated by their murderous deportation by Stalin in the Forties, and who boycotted the “referendum”. It makes no reference to their minority rights, nor to their assembly, the Mejlis, which was permitted by Ukrainian law. Crimean Tatars are now fleeing the peninsula for mainland Ukraine. Russian-speaking Ukrainian Jews have also made it clear to Putin that they do not want Russian intervention."

snip//

"If speakers of Russian were suffering discrimination, that would give rise to concern, though not justify invasion. In fact, Russian is a completely normal language of interchange in Ukraine. There, tens of millions of Russian-speakers read a free press, watch uncontrolled television and learn from an uncensored internet, in either Ukrainian or in Russian, as they prefer.

In Russia, the major social media have been brought under state control, television has been almost completely subdued and several of the remaining free-thinking blogs and internet news sites have been shut down or pressured. This leaves Ukraine as an island of free speech for people who use the Russian language."

MOre..
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/timothy-snyder-freedom-in-russian-exists-only-in-ukraine-9196833.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4689054

both sides suck shit.

and by both sides, I mean the U.S. and Russia. But it's cute and all, honey, that you think there are "good" guys in all this.

Last edited Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Hi, Cali.

I was discussing this with a wingnut yesterday, and tried to tell him the same thing. Politics is not a football game where you root for "your team". It is an ever changing landscape, with little if any black and white. I am capable of changing my opinion as I learn new things, such as changing my opinion about the soldier at the S.O.T.U. address.
"A man who can not change his opinion can change nothing".

about the backlash of the neo-cons when they didn't get Syria. You may have a point about the combat soldier with 10 tours being a message Obama was trying to send to the Neocons... But, since the Neo's don't listen to anyone...I'm not sure it could have been effective.

Just a suggestion ....you might want a paragraph break in your post. It kind of jumbles together and I think your point gets lost because of it.

one break - comin' up!

You caught that one!!!

This has very little to do with our neocons. Believe it or not, not everything in the world has anything to do with Bill Krystol, John McCain and the rest of the gang.

The tensions and all that go back centuries. This dance is much older than the United States has been a nation.

I don't know how many people understand that fact, though.

of the history involved, except that the nazis invaded Ukraine in WW2, and the party now in power in Kiev (Svoboda?) wanted to emulate those who sided with the Nazi invaders. (they made the "wolfangel" their symbol.)
I also read that Crimea has ties to Russia that go back to the 18th century or before.

Svoboda is not the party in power in Ukraine--it actually only has 8% of the current Parliamentary makeup. And arguably it's ultranationalist as opposed to neo-Nazi, which is not to excuse ultranationalism but there is a distinction nonetheless. But the greater point is that the parties responsible for the change in power were not dominantly ultranationlist or neo-Nazi. Instead, it was a movement that spanned ideology from left to right.

Crimea has "ties" to Russia by virtue of the fact that Russia has long been a dominating force in the region and engaged in heavy campaign of Russification, transplanting in ethnic Russians while expelling the people who lived before there. However, soon after the breakup of the USSR, Russia signed treaties recognizing that Crimea was Ukrainian territory (with the exception of the pre-existing military base). It now sees fit to break that treaty, using a bogus claim of oppression of Russians living in Crimea as justification.

Before posting on the topic, you really ought to learn more about it before jumping to conclusions.

all in service of the "Facist Neo-Nazi Coup in Ukraine" meme.

... as an alternative to media propaganda promoting a neocon agenda. I find it amazing that such promotion is tolerated here.

seem to understand exactly what I am saying.
and what I posted is the truth.

Ever heard of a paragraph break? Oh, truth is subjective by the way.

if you bothered to actually read the profile, you would know that that is an essay by Mr. Twain. If you can't figure out what he is trying to say, I am not at all surprised, considering your desire to rush into war.

Please post anything I have ever said that shows I have a desire to rush into war. I'll give you a hint sport, you will find NOTHING that resembles that accusation.

and to what should I attribute your poor manners and hostility?

See ya!

region once their government, which seems to be happening on a regular basis, decides to invade, influence, back coups in, or otherwise intervene. I would not be intimidated by condescension from anyone.

It is OUR tax dollars they are spending in all these invasions and/or neocon influenced coups. We the people never seem to benefit from the billions of money 'invested' in these places, but someone does.

You have every right, and does every citizen, to question our foreign policy and how it is benefiting those who are paying for it.

Apparently questioning government policies on DU, a tradition airc, is now considered to be 'loving Putin' or something.

They don't bother me, the lightly camouflaged neocons don't bother me in the least - they are legends in their own minds. I didn't know much about Ukraine or Crimea - probably because, like most Americans, what happens there is of little import compared to issues here at home. That is, until some lunatics in our State Department try to start a war there and divert what little remaining resources we haqve left here to protect the investments of the 1%.
"War - God's way of teaching Americans geography"

I know from doing what we always did, oppose their disastrous policies as loudly and strong as possible.

Ukraine intervenion will benefit the usual suspects. They will use OUR money to 'invest' in yet another foreign nation where we seem always to be backing the bad guys. A few privileged people will profit hugely while the American people will be fed he usual propaganda and knowing nothing about the situation, due to the Corporate Media's now more than familiar propaganda, will help by waving the flag, 'supporting the troops' or whatever, screwing THEMSELVES while the help the rich get richer.

I fell for it for a while, but not anymore.

"There are some known facts: First, far-right, anti-Semitic, anti-Russian and openly fascist groups have existed and do exist as a blight on modern Ukraine. A 2012 European Parliament resolution condemned the main -- but by no means most extreme -- ultra-right party, Svoboda, as "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic."

This extraordinary EU resolution contains 18 points of concern over policies embedded in laws of the Ukrainian Rada, or Parliament. A key paragraph reads that the EU "is concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine." The Parliament stresses that "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles."
"
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/opinion/speedie-ukraine-far-right/

I could just as easily produce another opinion piece from another Western think tank talking head which argues the opposite. They are a dime a dozen.

Or I could again stress the fact that Svoboda is a minority party, and the only reason it has any presence in Ukrainian government is by virtue of parliamentary procedures.

Yes, they do exist. No, they are not the majority view.

Just something to consider:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/ukrainian-rabbi-plays-down-neo-nazi-threat-nationalists-n51186


Ukrainian Rabbi Plays Down Neo-Nazi Threat From Nationalists






KIEV — A leading Ukrainian rabbi said on Wednesday he saw no sign of hostility toward Jews from nationalists involved in last month's uprising but was cautious on whether there could be a rise in anti-Semitic threats.

Russia brands some groups that helped to oust President Viktor Yanukovych as neo-Nazis, highlighting their admiration for Ukrainians who fought against the Red Army in World War II as one of the reasons for Moscow's takeover of the majority Russian-speaking Crimea.


But Moshe Reuven Azman, a senior rabbi in the capital Kiev, told a news conference he was not aware of new anti-Semitic acts since Yanukovych's fall and had not heard anti-Jewish statements from leaders of far-right parties. He cautioned against speculation on the issue being "exploited" for political ends.

"There's no big, general Ukrainian problem," Azman said, playing down some instances of Jews being attacked in the street and the firebombing of a provincial synagogue during the past few months of protests. He contrasted post-Soviet Ukraine's tolerance with "official anti-Semitism" in Soviet times.

... before you voice an opinion, I'd think.

Further, I fashion a guess that if U.S, forces poured out of a base on foreign soil and suddenly was looking to annex it, you just might call that an invasion. But my guess is Putin isn't done, so we'll get a chance to see this KGB officer in action!

of which you speak? (hint - there was no invasion)

p.s. - Crimea held a vote and decided overwhelmingly to join Russia. Reality check.

(Beyond the naval base, notably)

Who were the military men, then?

The Russian soldiers left their bases and occupied the province. Further, thousands more were airlifted in.

If that ain't an invasion, then the world is flat.

You seem to be getting news that I am not privy to... please provide links from a mainstream news source. I'm all ears.

it can't be that hard.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-officials-confirm-influx-of-russian-troops-into-crimea/2014/02/28/f5c2e88e-a0c7-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html

U.S. officials confirm influx of Russian troops into Crimea


By Karen DeYoung, Published: February 28


U.S. officials said Friday that Russian troops had entered Crimea, as President Obama warned that there “will be costs for any military intervention” and vowed to stand by the Ukrainian people.

Obama said he was “deeply concerned by reports of military movements,” that “would represent a profound interference in matters that must be determined by the Ukrainian people” and would constitute a “clear violation” of international law.


As the United Nations Security Council held an emergency closed-door meeting, the United States and its allies scrambled to avoid a confrontation with echoes of the Cold War.

After a day of increasingly alarming reports of an influx of Russian troops into Crimea, and U.S. references to a “fluid” situation, Obama appeared in the White House press room to pledge that “the United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any military intervention in Ukraine.

"While the president avoided confirming the Russian military movements"



Weapons of mass destruction! We know they have them!

I don't know. Enlighten me.

please post mainstream news links to show me the error of my ways!

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/03/world/europe/ukraine-crimea/

"administration official told CNN, with estimates of 6,000 Russian ground and naval forces in the region."

6,000 troops is an invasion? We may as well raise the white flag now if those Russskies are that damn good!!!

"Meanwhile, Seleznyov told CNN that up to 12 trucks full of Russian troops have crossed into the eastern Crimean city of Kerch from Russia."

Holy shit! 12 trucks!

1. Assert that the link was either TOO mainstream or not mainstream ENOUGH.
2. Make another lame deflection of fact.

In 1979 the Soviet Union was able to take over Afghanistan with less than 700 Spetsnaz soldiers.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/15/russian-commandos-invade-ukraine.html

into my thought process!
I'm sure there is a long history involved here that factors heavily.

for the Ukraine as a self identified state, to at least the middle ages, with the Kievan Rus state.

Fun fact. that was the first functioning democracy, as far as you can describe one, since Athens... it was destroyed by an invasion from the East. the Mongols. They brought some lovely things that did not exist before, as far as the record we know off, that have been internalized into the Russian psyche, and that is torture. I remember my instructor in the history of the period waxing romantically as to what might have happened if the Mongols never came? And if Kievan Russ evolved into a full democracy by the oh lets say 14th century... think Netherlands a few centuries later attracting the leading thinkers of the age.

The Crimea has been the punching bag of many an invasion, with their native population, the Tatars, having an identify that is longer than the US, and that is one ethnic group of many.

Russification, that is a tactic that goes to at least Peter the Great. This is what I predict Putin will use, since he's dusted off those methods.

Don't worry, our neocons do not even know the basics of that history. For them this is about the USSR and the renewal of the cold war that never ended. It did, but they would love to revive it.

quite interesting! Perhaps if the neocons try really hard, they can even bring back conelrad!

http://www.conelrad.com/index.php

we are in full propaganda mode, and I mean everybody. I take any coverage from the news media (all of it) with a huge grain of salt.

As to the condemnation of the European Parliament, yes, true. But the government in Kiev is a parliamentary system And while the US Congress is starting to remind me of the worst aspects of one of those, it is nowhere close to the US Congress.

Svoboda by the way, in true roots, goes further back than the nazis. It goes back to the deep nationalist roots all the way to Kievan Russian. Yes, they are not nice people, but there is far more to them than just the they are nazis.

They are part of a sub culture that also exists in the US, and that is the deep pervading sense of persecution now that we are having this push to minority rights.

is Svoboda used tea party style intimidation tactics to scare legitimately elected officials away from their offices, and then simply occupied them. In a real societal breakdown, I could see our home grown version of these aholes doing the same thing here.
Here, instead of using firebombs, they use citizens united money. So far.

in some small towns, only to be run out of town. (Local school board comes to mind)

Local politics can be some fascinating stuff.

Start to worry when the economy collapses into a great depression.

a group of militia wingnut types tried to take over the town of Gilberton, showing up at town council meetings with their guns. Exactly the same thing as Svoboda did. The town council fired the City police chief who was their leader. Courageous.

or militias.

Here they took over the school board in an election. They tried to force their way. They were recalled by parents.

So far they are not going anywhere, anytime soon.

But they face the same kind of hate filled, I have to share, eeeewww mentality. But this matters, While on the surface they might look similar and with similar tactics. They are not. And they are a minority in both countries. Like a real hard small minority, though loud.

Pay attention, but do not become frightened.

of people like that who have to rely on guns and a group for security.

and responded to nadin. It literally made me ill to see this same propaganda going on now and right here on DU.

I remember all the "duck and cover" drills in grade school. Anything to keep us afraid of "those other than us". Anything to convince us of our superiority and therefore our right to rule the world.

Some people will latch on to anything to keep that feeling of righteousness.

It reminded me of "Reefer Madness". People believed that shit too.

A kick and a rec.

that will not stop the war mongers from trying to make hay while the sun shines.

but in this she is absolutely correct.

and dangerous.

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2014-03-05.html

I guess if one is looking to take cheap shots at the President, it's a logical title.

you would have read that I said Obama is doing the right thing working for peace, and that he was undercut by neocons in State.

Sorry I was a coward and didn't sign Pro's poll supporting the "invasion"!







p.s. I also don't link to Ann Coulter on D.U.

... that dwarfs your quarkish irony in a gravitational field that bends the fabric of time and space itself, that several other D.U.ers have posted op's with similar titles. Nice try, no cigar.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024602403

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11357167

I started shaving in 1969 with a double edged safety razor at the tender age of 12, Mr. Lesser.

the neocons have had cold water thrown on the little fire they tried to start. Hopefully once this dies down Obama will can their asses right out of the State Department.

I'm guessing you know little about the region, its history or the regional geopolitics; yet still developed a premise based almost entirely off that lack of knowledge...

Good job!

thrill.

Oh my God. All Crimea did was trade one right wing group of assholes who came to power illegally for another right wing asshole who came to power in a stolen election.

and the history is really the thing. In this case south and east Ukraine simply have a culture that is more entwined with Russia. Sort of "the devil you know is better than the one you don't" type of thinking.

I feel for them - wish both parties would leave them the hell alone so they could self-rule. What a concept!

Like I said, the history of this region is very complicated, and I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs.

However, in general I oppose sham elections.

Who ran this election? As in, who opened the polling stations and who counted the votes? Who printed the ballots? The answer is obvious.

There are Russian troops in the street, and surrounding Ukrainian bases and government offices. The Russians have blockaded the Ukrainian Navy.

...and this is supposed to be a fair referendum? Seriously, if you were inclined to vote 'no'...would you venture into the street, walk into the pro Russian den that serves as a polling station, and cast your vote?

This wasn't a legitimate election.

feel at home, doesn't it.

I don't remember the last time we had a fair election here.

Svitlana Zalischuk states..

“The referendum itself doesn’t mean anything,” she added, noting that the choice was between “yes and yes,” and didn’t give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. “You can’t conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.”

The Fight for Democracy in Ukraine: A Conversation with Center UA’s Svitlana Zalischuk

BY Micah L. Sifry

“In the third and last part of our conversation, I asked Zalischuk about the referendum about to take place in Russian-occupied Crimea and the massive Russian troop presence across the border from eastern Ukraine. “Russian invaded Ukraine,” she said, mincing no words about Vladimir Putin’s actions in the wake of Yanukovych’s departure from office. “The referendum itself doesn’t mean anything,” she added, noting that the choice was between “yes and yes,” and didn’t give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. “You can’t conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.”

This is not a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, she said, it’s a conflict between the civilized world and totalitarianism, one that undermines the whole architecture of the European and world community. I asked her about the idea that the democracy movement in Ukraine was mostly strongest in the western part of the country and not so much from the eastern half, where Yanukovych got the majority of votes. She said the picture was more complicated, because Yanukovych himself had campaigned in favor of stronger ties with Europe when he was running for president.”

http://techpresident.com/news/wegov/24827/fight-democracy-ukraine-conversation-center-uas-svitlana-zalischuk

Timothy Snyder: Freedom in Russian exists only in Ukraine

In Ukraine, millions of Russian-speakers read a free press and learn from an uncensored internet

snip//

"Putin claims that he is defending the rights of speakers of Russian in Ukraine. He has used this argument to justify his invasion of Crimea and the electoral theatre of yesterday, a “referendum” in which there was no way to vote against union with Russia.

Among the speakers of Russian in Crimea are the Crimean Tatars, whose historical memory is dominated by their murderous deportation by Stalin in the Forties, and who boycotted the “referendum”. It makes no reference to their minority rights, nor to their assembly, the Mejlis, which was permitted by Ukrainian law. Crimean Tatars are now fleeing the peninsula for mainland Ukraine. Russian-speaking Ukrainian Jews have also made it clear to Putin that they do not want Russian intervention."

snip//

"If speakers of Russian were suffering discrimination, that would give rise to concern, though not justify invasion. In fact, Russian is a completely normal language of interchange in Ukraine. There, tens of millions of Russian-speakers read a free press, watch uncontrolled television and learn from an uncensored internet, in either Ukrainian or in Russian, as they prefer.

In Russia, the major social media have been brought under state control, television has been almost completely subdued and several of the remaining free-thinking blogs and internet news sites have been shut down or pressured. This leaves Ukraine as an island of free speech for people who use the Russian language."

MOre..
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/timothy-snyder-freedom-in-russian-exists-only-in-ukraine-9196833.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4689054

Apparently invasions are only real if the West does it. Got it.
I've been using this episode to bulk up my up until now very very small ignore list. Every time a poster says it wasn't an invasion, on they go. I'm not here to deal with people who deny obvious facts.