The hostage episode is just not something I'm willing to forgive. They hate us and maybe they feel justified. Fine. But we don't need to be letting a known terrorist into the country.

...does not even acknowledge Ajax happened. Iran suffered under Mohammed Reza Shah for 26 years, and then under the Islamic regime since. And our government has the hypocritical gall to continue to paint Iran as some kind pariah state like N. Korea. So, while I cannot approve of kidnapping, I cannot really blame them for trying to give our government a very symbolic black eye.

CIA documents years ago. The UK was the primary force for change, but the Russians were also working through Tudeh (who in the end aligned with him). If it weren't for the Russian backing of Tudeh, we likely wouldn't have gotten involved. Ike was convinced to participate because of concern over Russia's involvement.
Our hands aren't clean, but there were a lot of players and things weren't peaches and cream in Iran with Mosaddegh. He had lost the backing of the Ayatollah and most other clerics, he had limited the role of the Shah, was acting under emergency powers and finally dissolved the Parliament.
Iran is a country who openly advocates for the killing of Americans. They are treated accordingly. Hopefully, one day we will see that change, but we can't kid ourselves as to Iran's role in the world. They aren't the worst country, but they're far away from being the best.

Last edited Sun Mar 30, 2014, 05:46 PM - Edit history (1)

for an act of war by a foreign power. The U.S. government (not "we&quot of the time conspired with the UK government to overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran, doing so by covertly arranging a violent coup, and denied its involvement for the next 35 years. Discussion on the morality of this crime ends right there. Nothing justifies it. It doesn't matter how you assess Mosaddegh's tenure, or what fissures had developed among Iranians, or what you think the Russians were doing.

And what's with this lie? "Iran is a country who (sic) openly advocates for the killing of Americans."

What your "Death to America" means is very little. It depends on who says it and where. Got any info on the last time it was said in Iran, or is it just an image you've developed from watching a lot of TV?

It means a lot less than the permanent U.S. threats to wage actual war on Iran mean. U.S. war agencies have indicated they are responsible for the assassinations of nuclear scientists and cyber warfare (e.g., Stuxnet)? That's not the advocacy of killing that you imagine "Death to America" means. That's plain killing, in acts of war. (I've seen people on DU react approvingly.)

This in a context wherein nuclear-armed Israel, the largest recipient of U.S. aid, makes its burning desire and threat to bomb Iran plain every few weeks. Several times Israeli government has thrown its efforts hard into getting the U.S. to commit this international war crime on its behalf.

And what do you think "Bomb Iran" means? I've heard the idea expressed about 17 million times since 1979. Do you think, to paraphrase you, it means "America is a country who (sic) openly advocates for the killing of Iranians"?

It can be assumed that it was said last Friday, as it is regular practice to chant it during Friday prayers. That's not noteworthy enough to be in the news, though, so let's go with the rally last month:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/world/middleeast/anniversary-of-islamic-revolution-in-iran.html?_r=0
And I imagine they also chanted it on the national holiday "Death To America Day".

Try to minimize and justify it all you like, it remains a fact that it is regularly said in Iran and given official endorsement. I don't buy the attempts to dismiss it as mere metaphor or rhetoric any more than I do when teabaggers start talking about "second ammendment remedies".

I asked for a reason.

No one's minimizing it. Some Iranians chant "Death to America" (note: not specific "Americans&quot . It's not a metaphor, fine. It's also not the policy of the country to murder Americans, as you have suggested above -- I'd say outrageously.

Meanwhile, the actual U.S. government routinely prepares to murder tens of thousands of Iranians (although luckily it has consistently put the breaks on its Israeli ally's rabid urgings to do so). The tentacles or allies of the U.S.G., including the designated terrorist group MEK (which the neocons love, however) actually do murder Iranians in bomb attacks, assassinate scientists, and dispatch sabotage software in acts of cyberwar, while the U.S.G. winks and nods.

That's certainly not a metaphor, either. It's obvious enough who began the actual (not evoked) violence between the two nations, who has committed 99% of this actual violence, and where 100% of this actual violence has occurred (possibly 99%, depending on who was really responsible for the Lockerbie bombing).

.

small potatoes.