General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn 1987, a radical feminist called all sexual contact "degrading to women" and "rape."
Her name was Andrea Dworkin.
She also supported all of Bill Clinton's accusers, including Monica Lewinsky, saying Bill Clinton had "raped" her.
I keep seeing more and more entries here, about "rape culture."
It does *NOT* exist here in the US.
There are aberrations in actions, but even in towns like Steubanville, most of the townspeople are horrified and disgusted by what "the boys" did.
Our "news" media does not help, either, they look for, and find, those who support the accused rapists, ignoring the larger majorities who condemn the rapists.
I have a relative who was held captive, and raped repeatedly.
The rapist skipped town after she escaped.
This was 30+ years ago.
For all we know, the guy (we don't know his name) could be in Timbuktu.
"Rape culture" is just the latest excuse.
"She was asking for it" no longer works.
Most of the time, "She was dressed wrong" doesn't work anymore.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
JI7
(89,250 posts)........................."
"she should have known"
of course they usually will not claim the guy is totally innocent. but they will still put some blame on the victim.
look at the sandusky thing and howpeople were attacking the victims because of how it hurt that popular coach.
Archae
(46,328 posts)"They can't help themselves, they grew up in a rape culture and so they rape!"
How many hundreds, thousands, MILLIONS grow up in those same areas, and never rape?
Nope, I don't buy the "rape culture" excuse, and never will.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)You're trying to explain to women (many of whom have been raped) what rape culture is, which is stupid and offensive. We're not fucking making excuses for rape. We're trying to stop rape.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)
thucythucy
(8,056 posts)This is exactly what needed to be said.
MuseRider
(34,111 posts)in a few words you capture the entire point. Thank you.
phil89
(1,043 posts)Sounds like an attempt to shut people up.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)6-0 hide cause i think it was a piece of shit thing to say
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)It is full of pro rape MRA types now, even on the juries. This place sickens me sometimes.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)If there was an official place for people who are sick and tired of what DU has become, to meet up outside DU to keep in touch, and lots of people used it, I swear I'd flame out when I see posts like that fucking garbage in the OP. It is infuriating. If I didn't care about the LGBT Group and want to do my best to host it, I would have long since taken DU out of my bookmarks and home page tabs because some of the shit that has been allowed on here.
I still cannot get over a poster like Hamden Rice being allowed to claim the majority of gay people had AIDS, but not getting TSed for that. He got TSed because he showed the picture of the baby seal being clubbed to death, the same picture the WWF used for years to try to get donations. Nope, it's fine to bash the GLBT community, women, the AA community, and anyone else who isn't white, male, and privileged on DU and we cannot expect the white, male, privileged owners of the site to ever see our side of the issue. How many years did they deny the gay purge only to admit later that it really did happen. How many women have been degraded on this site? How many racist jokes and racist comments have been allowed to stand? Too damn many. That's how many.
Some days, I read MRA garbage on this site and want to 
and just 
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Tool.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Believe me, I'd have rather spent that time thinking about other things.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)saying, honey. PSST, TRUST ME....opstay ithway ethay aperay ulturecay andyay antagonisingyay aperay urvivorssay. ITyay ILLWay OTNay ENDyay ELLWay. USTTRay EMay...IXNay ethay artsmay aleckyyay emaraksray...
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)from my parents. lol.
Ms. Toad
(34,073 posts)
REP
(21,691 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I'm so sick of people denying what women go through. It is fucking hell being a woman. Those with that attitude would curl up in a fetal position on the floor and cry like a baby if they had to live through the garbage we put up with on a daily basis. They wouldn't know how to even exist any more. It would literally incapacitate them.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I tell my kids to lock the doors to the cars. NO ONE says this is a theft culture.
I tell my kids to stay out of high crime areas. NO ONE says this is crime culture.
I tell my kids to avoid people who are drug users. NO ONE says this a drug culture.
BUT, if I tell my daughter to avoid certain high risk situations - THIS is rape culture.
That bothers me. I tell my kids NO ONE has a right to steal from them, beat them up, attack them, rape them, etc. However, I also let them know that the world is full of pieces of shit and we need to be vigilint in protecting ourselves. My telling my kids to be safe in no way communicates that they deserve something bad that happens to them. Rather, it simply communicates the unacceptable, dark side of humanity and the laws of statistics and probabilities.
And yet, I have been called a rape apologist for this view on this very website.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)apartment, car or let a man in your car, do not let a man buy you dinner, flowers, or a candy bar????? dont go to college. dont join the military.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I am guessing your local community college offers one. After that, we can discuss, as it is clear you don't understand how it works.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)family members, people girls should be able to trust.
so ya. i get statistics
how about you dude? you telling your daughter not to live.... to be sure to prevent her rape?
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)You are portraying EXACTLY the point I was trying make. You intentionally obfuscate the point made. Why? I don't know. Maybe you want to "call someone out." Maybe you need to do it to feel confidence in your view. Whatever it is, I will make one clear attempt to clarify my point.
NO ONE has a right to be stolen from. I will tell my kids that there is a chance someone will break into their car at a mall, at a sporting event, at an amusement park, at a military base or even at home. It is completely wrong for anyone to steal their car under any circumstances. However, I will also point out that car theft is much higher in one of the local bar districts than most other areas. The ONLY way to 100% prevent your car from being stolen is to not own a car. That is not a feasible solution, so I will tell them to be vigilent in locking their car, recognizing that in some areas, they may want to take a lap or two more to find a parking spot in a more visible location.
I will teach my daughter that no one has a right force themself on her. I will teach my sons they have zero right to touch a woman without her informed consent. I will tell my daughter that a rape can happen everywhere and is never the fault of the victim. However, I will also educate her on situations where the risk is greater (i.e. getting drunk and being alone in a frat, while at college). Informing her of the statistics is NOT rape culture. It is education on FACTS and STATISTICS. Communicating there facts is NOT excusing bad behavior or blaming the victim.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)If you spend more time telling your daughter to stay sober and away from dangerous situations than you do telling her how to avoid men who don't respect women and what consent means, then you're doing her a disservice and you're perpetuating rape culture.
I was raped in my own home, in my own bed, while wearing the unsexiest set of pajamas that ever were, by somebody I loved and trusted. I'd taken self-defense classes and had grown up street smart in a sketchy neighborhood. Nothing ever happened while out late in dodgy areas. Because life isn't a cop show.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)So, why is it wrong to educate her on that?
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)Saying rape culture is an excuse is like saying racism is an excuse for hate crimes. It's not an excuse. It's a way of talking about the various factors that go into excusing rapists and blaming victims.
Why don't you stop and read one of the threads on rape culture rather than railing against the topic. You clearly have no understanding of what it is.
Watch this:
Read this: http://www.thenation.com/article/172643/ten-things-end-rape-culture#
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)He knows better, but is going to pretend to be "difficult" just to get the views up
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)One I won't soon forget.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts) indeed.AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and a long time duer was effected strongly and left. after a couple months, she has come back, a little. and ya.... we will pretty much stand up against shit like that. each. and. every. time.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)They've done "their share" to combat misogyny and now are not interested in hearing anything about any struggle women face every day because we should know that if we are treated as sex objects, it's because we "allow it to happen to (us)" and that if we are harassed wearing a short skirt or a swimsuit, it is because we see the world as a sick place, and the harassment, apparently, is all in our minds and because we let it happen.
Some people are apparently Barbara Bushes who don't want to bother their beautiful minds with the harassment, the fear of rape, the misogyny so many of us experience every day.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)That was an amazing Ted Talk. She made so many valid observations.
I especially liked her comment about how women do not have the right to safely share the same space that men do. I feel that whenever I walk alone in the mountains with my dogs. And I would not do that walk without dogs because I've had some creepy guys stop their vehicle to talk to me, but not one of them got out of their vehicle because of the dogs. But should I need to have dogs for protection when I take a walk in nature? I don't think so. I want them for companionship, not protection.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)anyone actually defend Sandusky or blame the poor kids? I live in Central PA where Penn State is very popular and I haven't heard anybody defend Sandusky. I don't see how anybody could blame little kids for being raped.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Jerry Sandusky's wife breaks her silence, still believes that the convicted molester is innocent
Jerry Sandusky did shower with boys, but Dottie Sandusky doesn't think her husband, former Penn State assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky, sexually abused anyone. The courts disagreed, sentencing Sandusky to up to 60 years behind bars. She opened up to Matt Lauer on NBC's ‘Today’ show about what her life has been like since her husband was locked up.
"They were manipulated, and they saw money,’’ Sandusky said. “Once lawyers came into the case, they said there was money.”
The wife admitted that Sandusky did bathe with other boys, but denied that there was anything sexual about the steamy showers.
“I believe he showered with kids," she said. That’s the generation that Jerry grew up in. ...There were always people coming in and out no matter what time that was.”
“I'm certain of one thing above everything else after two years of investigating this case, and that is that Dottie Sandusky is not delusional," he said. "She knows the case better than the vast majority of media members, and she is positive that Jerry Sandusky is innocent.”
more at link:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/jerry-sandusky-wife-breaks-silence-weak-wife-article-1.171823
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I think you should read this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024751657
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)What a relief to hear for all the women who have stated their opinion on the internet and have been inundated with rape threats in response.
What a relief to hear for all the women who have been harassed on the streets, molested in bars, and stalked.
What a relief to hear for the Maryville and Steubenville victims, for Audrie Pott, for Rehteah Parsons, for the 14-year old who was told she wasn't raped because she looked older than her chronological age, and countless other examples.
What a relief to hear for the 1 out of every 3 women who have been raped, assaulted, or experienced domestic violence....
Do I need the sarcasm tag? Just in case, for the sarcasm-impaired 
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)It is not an excuse to rape but showing that there is broad acceptance of rape due to "she was asking for it" (which unfortunately is still prevalent by asking what was she wearing, she should have known better than to drink, etc), not enough reporting of rape because, after all, he is a good guy, etc etc etc.
It is not an excuse but showing how prevalent these attitudes are. It does exist and is not an excuse.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #4)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)because the victim should have protected herself/himself better, for raping someone who is dressed provocatively, someone who flirts, someone who's perceived as flirting because s/he just smiles at the rapist.
Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #108)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)"What did the victim do to provoke or enable the rape?"
That my friend is rape culture.
Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #115)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)However, if the accused is a wannabe security cop and the deceased is an African-American youth, well.
Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #264)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Like sexual assault incidents, the preconceived notions about the victims can thwart justice in other assault/murder cases.
Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #283)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bet
fuckjin for real.
what could you possibly say next? i think you have hit every MRA point.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #116)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Response to uppityperson (Reply #183)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)raped in a playground walking home from school. Tell that to the young woman whose rape was dismissed because she had a drink with the man who raped her. Tell that to me who got raped by someone I lived with in my living room who decided "no means yes because it was yes last time and you now can not tell me no".
I think you need to read more, to listen more, to learn more.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #243)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)The judge chose to protect the rapist, not our children.
You see, rape culture means "rape isn't nearly as bad as a rapist going to prison." He is now free to rape some more babies.
This is how it works. Minimize the crime, don't punish the rapist but set him free, and guess what happens?
More rape....because our judges won't deal with it properly, because it's just "no big deal."
Response to Tsiyu (Reply #277)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)have piled up in this thread, and magically you all agree with each other. WOW!
What are the odds of a bunch of newbies all showing up to school us about rape! How nice of all of you!
Never saw that here before, nosiree!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)Can you imagine what good they could do if they organized to actually make things better, rather than getting their jollies off gang-stalking rape threads?
What wasted lives and souls, I say....
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #266)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)all your advice doesn't mean a thing.
But you know that.
Response to Tsiyu (Reply #284)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)Why are so MANY of you low-count newbies absolutely fascinated with rape threads?
Just curious is all. I never see so many newbies as I do on rape threads.
It's interesting.....
Response to Tsiyu (Reply #291)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)are we allowed to tell a man to fuck off, when he comes into our space asking us to his room for coffee, at 4 am in an elevator alone, or are we being meanies.
yes... always carry our drink cause a man can stick a roofie in
dont wear short skirt
no pony tails
dont go out after dark
how much would you like to curtail a womans behavior and life.... to prevent OUR rape?
adn if we are raped? are we blamed we did not do ENOUGH to prevent it?
must we have cuts, bruises, black eyes, broken bones showing we tried, i mean really tried to prevent our rape?
Response to seabeyond (Reply #120)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)harmful? the fact she was not raped? and if she was raped. would that have been her fault for thinking he was not harmful.
what a fuckin trip.
and of course.... ask her to have coffee in his room. nah... nothing creepy there
Response to seabeyond (Reply #151)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)women.
she was making a point about sexism. this, and your dismissal of her experience, is an example of misogyny.
you total lack of empathy about her concern with a "few brief minutes feeling uncomfortable" is telling. you blame the woman for not preventing her rape, dismiss her concerns being in a bad situation, and if rape, i am sure would say she ought to have stepped out when he stepped in the elevator. but then, if she stepped out, then men would cry, she was unfair to the poor unfortunate harmless man and hurt his feelings.
you, you do not care how inconsistent, dismissive, you are in your argument. because for you, it is about derailing this topic. what many mra men constantly, consistently, purposely do on internet discussion boards.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #158)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)participate with the few men that use this manner of derailing conversations. i hope administration, and mirt have had enough time to hear your participation in these threads, and are able to discern you lack of respect for women, on a discussion board.
done with you
i so know who you are and just am barely not recalling. but i will. your arguments and approach are no different that when you were here last time.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #171)
Name removed Message auto-removed
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I didn't think he'd last too long.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)the last time he was here.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)is at fault. the 14 yr old that later killed herself is responsible for HIS behavior.
i mean... just gets to the point of sick. truly fuckin sick. and then listening to these men tell us how we should appreciate living in this country, quit whining, being melodramatic. evo psych makes men do it.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)children and anal, mouth?
and didnt an MRA leader suggest making date rape a crime was a crime? that in the past, date rape was "seduction"
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)As far as something being illegal yet broadly accepted, let's try a simpler analogy. There is a reason for not stopping at stop signs being illegal, yet it is broadly accepted to be ok. Please do not come back with any rape/stop sign comparison as that would be ridiculous and completely missing the point. The point is things that are illegal can and are broadly accepted.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)More people speed regularly than run stop signs.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Did they ever get PPRed for that? I don't think so. Rape culture is even evident on DU.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Because we lived together and had had sex in the past. Because "no" means "yes" and, after all, we HAD had sex in the past so how could it be rape?
Response to uppityperson (Reply #182)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Are you seriously saying ANYONE I have lived with and/or had sex with can now have sex with me even if I do not want to? That having had sex with someone in the past takes away my right to decide whether or not to in the future? What?
Having lived with and having sex with someone does not give them a free pass in the future.
No means no. If you have sex with someone who has said No, that is rape.
No ambiguity. No. Means. No. A
And holding this sort of view is part of what rape culture is.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #207)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)word against the others. Without evidence, who do you believe? The woman who had in the past had sex with her rapist or the rapist? The woman who had a couple drinks at the party or the man who thought "No means yes"? The woman who wore a skirt or the man who was aroused by her dress? The 13 year old walking home from school or the 16 yr old who said she'd flirted with him and wanted it?
It is often difficult to establish exactly what happened.
In order to "prove rape" there would need to be vaginal tears and even then, "she likes it rough" would have given then the out to say, oh, they are a couple, not our problem.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #227)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Accept that the woman did something wrong. Accept that having had sex in the past takes away your right to decide whether or not to again. Accept that the woman did something wrong rather than the rapist.
Does this happen if someone if robbed? They knew the person? The victim was drunk? She wore a piece of clothing? She led the robber on?
As KittyWampus put it "The topic "rape culture" refers to prevalent attitudes. Things that are accepted unconsciously." Accept that women lie about being raped more than men rape.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #251)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Ms. Toad
(34,073 posts)Consent to one, or even many, sexual encounters is not perpetual consent. Period.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)People don't often go to jail for it, and it's pretty regularly excused.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)That's what rape culture means. A cultural de-emphasis on and misunderstanding of the need for consent.
RC
(25,592 posts)If so, did you follow through?
Stuffing hurts makes things worse in the long run, as ithey will always find a way out, and not in a good way either.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)help to get beyond.
and cause problems for everyone else, or something, cause you have not gotten that professional help.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)It was damn near fifteen years ago. I'm fine. I had nightmares for a year or two, but even then I was a functional, mostly okay person, just working through something traumatic.
Therapy isn't a thing that happens in my tax bracket. 
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)now now dear, is for me a wowser. this one got two wowsers. condescending as hell.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)an obvious attempt to discredit anything I have to say on this subject.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)on du. i never am interested enough to figure out exactly what he is trying to say. i never needed a stranger on the net to psychoanalyze me, lol. but... as i said, he uses it often. and yes, it is to discredit. that is a good way to interpret it.
still damn offensive.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Well, until he socks up at least.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)I am sorry that happened to you.
What a sick creep.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)I'm a long way away from what happened, and I wouldn't mention it at all if I weren't used to dealing with some really insensitive reactions, but after that first exchange on Sunday I had to go take a walk and get some fresh air and coffee.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)narcissistic viciousness for a long time. I am shocked to see that he never had a post hidden.
RC
(25,592 posts)What I am saying is that there is help out there. You don't have to answer the question I ask here. Answer it to yourself.
From what I am reading in this thread, it is obvious not many have sought help in dealing with damaging experiences.
PTSD can and does result in traumatic experiences for many people. Mentally and physically abusive marriage and relationships, rapes, can all cause varying levels of PTSD. You don't need to be in a way zone to suffer from it.
All I am saying is there is help available.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)known there was help if I'd not read it here 25 years after being raped.
from someone who has worked professionally and volunteered with rape survivors.
RC
(25,592 posts)Or how to go about getting it.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)was help available.
As lm wrote, that's an odd and personal question. And demeaning in this context.
RC
(25,592 posts)Help for some traumatic event you (not necessarily you you) are having trouble dealing with? Why is that a problem?
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)if they got help and "If so, did you follow through". Ignoring the point that rape culture exists by throwing in a very personal and rather condescending question.
"That's what rape culture means. A cultural de-emphasis on and misunderstanding of the need for consent. "
"Did you get help and if so did you follow through?"
Not, I am sorry that happened to you. Not, I hope you recovered. But "did you get help and if so did you follow through".
cui bono
(19,926 posts)There are some good therapists out there that can help people who have trouble with social situations.
RC
(25,592 posts)
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)I find your behavior creepy.
RC
(25,592 posts)
GP6971
(31,161 posts)at least for the survivors of the rape culture that can't afford it.
My first wife was a mental health therapist specializing in dealing with survivors of rape, incest, sexual abuse etc. Notice I didn't use the term "victim".....she considered all her clients survivors. She worked for a non-profit and there was a year long waiting list to get services. Unfortunately, many just moved on as the months wore on, but they were always replaced by new applicants.
Bottom line is if there were more services available, the public up cry would increase....it was my wife's hope that public awareness would gradually erode the rape culture.
RC
(25,592 posts)with people needing counseling. You can see some of that in responses to a few of my posts in this thread.
Need help with a physical problem, there is no social stigma with going to a health specialist.
Have a problem dealing with a mental issue? There is still a major social stigma with mental issues, no matter the cause. It is all too common to either suffer in silence or find enablers to reinforce the idea that the real problem is everyone else. The Birds of a Feather syndrome.
GP6971
(31,161 posts)to it. Until rape, incest and sexual abuse are considered culturally unacceptable, the stigma will always remain.
Services for those that can't afford it have been affected by 2 things.....government cutting back their already limited services and support of donations in the private sector.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Is that your way of silencing women who try to talk about the reality of rape culture? Accuse them of trying to find enablers or blame innocent people, rather than get the help they so sorely must need because they are mentally damage now?
You don't know what help they got. It's none of your business, and it's not even pertinent to this discussion. I'm not sure what you are trying to pull here, but it is coming across very creepy to me too.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this thread is amazing with the different comments and people, and all allowed on a progressive board. totally amazing. i have to get off to enjoy my day.
RIGHT NOW. lol
done
Rex
(65,616 posts)You have a great day sea! I am about to go find something to do outside.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)doesn't consider himself a rapist. You took the opportunity to turn it around as some sort of plea for direction about what she needs to do to feel better. Here's a hint: She wasn't asking for your fucking advice.
RC
(25,592 posts)I like to help people in distress. Often they don't even know there is help available or where to go to get it, if they did know.
I am supposed to be sorry that I am a empathic Liberal that want to make people lives easier? I know playing the victim sure does not make anyone life easier.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)empathic liberal",just giving unwanted and unasked for advice to someone "playing the victim".
RC
(25,592 posts)Don't want my help, ignore me and I go away.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)is creating you as a vulnerable little.... flower being crushed or something. is this fuckin sick, or what. lol. another fuckin wowser. wowser wowser.
i have to get off. but this train wreck, i cannot pull my eyes away.
RC
(25,592 posts)I won't knock it off. I have met a few too many damaged people of both genders, in real life, that blame the opposite gender, or those around them for their own problems. It got old after a while. So, I try to get them started in getting help for themselves. Some listen, some don't. Dealing with problems, instead of stuffing them, makes for happier, more contented person. I know dealing with happier, more contented people makes my life easier.
Then a certain protected Group invades General Discussion and my desire to help overwhelms me. Oh, where to start? You were one of the more benign ones. That's all.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Go use somebody else to make your point.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)You are blaming LeftyMom of having a problem instead of the rape culture?
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)Did he go away?
Kali
(55,008 posts)Just like I wished for!
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)what don't you understand about that? You weren't being asked to judge anyone's ability to cope or what they should do about it.Jesus.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)her voice. this is very interesting to watch, and i hope lefty throws a left and is not feeling bad. totally supporting her here. but wow.
Ms. Toad
(34,073 posts)That's what rape culture means. A cultural de-emphasis on and misunderstanding of the need for consent.
Hint: Nothing. Suggesting she needs counseling because she is providing a first person illustration of what rape culture is nothing more than an attempt to discredit her observation by labeling it as coming from "damaged goods."
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)exactly. that is it.
Rex
(65,616 posts)ithey? Are you trying to say something here? The poster gave you a great example of rape culture, funny that you don't address that at all.
RC
(25,592 posts)Yes, stuffing bad experiences is damaging. Both for the person doing the stuffing things and for those around them.
This thread is a good example for some of the bad side effects.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)turned it on the actual victim.
fuck
RC
(25,592 posts)But that doesn't apply to you.
I am not blaming the victim. If they had a physical injury, there would no problem getting help. But if they had an emotional injury, they are just supposed to shut-up and live with it? Why?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)because she dared to call something out you think she ought not talk about.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)How long before someone comes along and suggests she's just lying?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)You don't get to use me to make some anti-woman point about being a victim the right way.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Sun Mar 30, 2014, 01:26 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
They would rather play the victim card, than get help.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4753977
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This is beyond the pale, describing someone who was raped as "playing the victim card".
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Mar 30, 2014, 01:34 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I actually agree that some of the feminist here go a bit too far. I'm not sure if I agree with the phrase, "rape culture." But describing someone who admits having been raped as, "playing the victim card", is way out of bounds - cruel and inhuman.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Folk apparently feel very free and emboldened to post any sexist thought that comes to mind ... counting on little or no consequence associated with posting this garbage.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)if you are willing to participate in a jury, you should be willing to defend your vote.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Thank you those who voted to hide.
I've emailed the results to the Admins. They can't say no one is saying anything to them about this.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)their reasons. I doubt that any of them could actually think of a legitimate reason for leaving it.
RC
(25,592 posts)Besides you are not the only woman here by along shot.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)You are passively-aggressively harassing someone and feigning innocence by proclaiming you are just trying to help. You are doing nothing of the sort. You are trying to discredit her by falsely painting her as unable to be rational because she is suffering from PTSD, painting her as damaged goods. She is neither of those. But you know that. I'm sure you are just trying to get her goat and make her angry. What despicable behavior.
And lm didn't ask for help, is not "in distress" as you claimed and is most certainly NOT playing the victim card. And you want to claim that she is "disrupting DU"?
She is discussing the issue. You are actively attempting to antagonize her with your passive-aggressive behavior.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)apparently it doesn't get your post hidden because key jurors don't get that...
but it does get you PPR'd.
good. it should.
View posts by RC
Transparency Status
Posting Privileges Revoked
Revoked on Reason Revoked by
Mar 31, 2014 Made some incredibly inappropriate posts in response to a rape survivor, including telling her she was "playing the victim card."
For more information see Terms of Service
EarlG
(Administrator)
hlthe2b
(102,282 posts)shame on three members of that jury panel.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)I know from personal experience here.
But it's good to see when it does happen.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)
i agree with you
Texasgal
(17,045 posts)Good GRIEF!
RC
(25,592 posts)"Good GRIEF!" indeed.
Texasgal
(17,045 posts)experience disruptive?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)If you think talking about consent is disrupting DU I'm not the problem or the one who needs to seek help.
RC
(25,592 posts)by a certain well known Group here. Don't take everything so personal. It's not. This is a message board.
Texasgal
(17,045 posts)after her RAPE is very personal! DUH.
Maybe you should take your own advice!
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)and about 10 percent of men disrupt DU? That you don't care about a common crime that affects many people doesn't make discussing it disruptive. In fact, I would argue that your callousness toward the lives of much of the membership of this site and the general population is far more disruptive.
RC
(25,592 posts)I am not the one being callous. I am the one being empathic to people that have experienced a traumatic event by trying to get help for them.
BTY, That "much of the membership" is in reality not a very large minority.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)is "disruptive" to DU. 35% isn't a very large minority? Add to that the rest of the membership who cares about the people in their lives who have been assaulted, and you have all but a small handful of posters.
You are attempting to discredit statements by people who have been the targets of sexual violence by suggesting that they are emotionally disturbed.
RC
(25,592 posts)Some people need help dealing with traumatic events. That does not make them emotionally disturbed.
GP6971
(31,161 posts)seeking help when the deck is stacked against them. That's the unfortunate reality and many survivors refuse to go through the public humiliation and angst knowing that they will be on the short end. THAT'S the rape culture that exists in this country.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)This sexist crap is sickening. It doesn't belong here and it is OBVIOUS shit stirring and trolling.
RC
(25,592 posts)Response to RC (Reply #263)
CFLDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)I guess you didn't learn anything after all.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Jesus, the group that cannot be named did more than snap tourist photos in Colorado.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)harassing a woman who posted as an aside that she had been raped, and this guy is claiming she is in distress and asking her if she has sought help for some strange reason, even though there's no reason to believe any of that.
You then responded in that thread saying "this is fun".
Get it?
Response to cui bono (Reply #390)
CFLDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)baiting of someone over a number of threads. You walked into the middle of that with this "joke." You should probably read through this thread. You will want to self-delete.
The creepy baiter was PPR'd.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)I read somewhere you are in high school so maybe you're just not mature enough to realize the gravity of the subject matter, but you are posting on a political board so it would do you good to become a little more sensitive and enlightened. Rape is not a joking matter.
Responding to someone who is harassing a rape survivor in a very hostile passive-aggressive manner and thinking you're having fun is inappropriate. You need to read the thread and realize that what you say is going to be put into that context.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)I just came back into this thread and saw your despicable and inhumane treatment of a rape victim and as a result you are now gone from here.
So, let me express my feelings:
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)From one survivor to another, a huge hug.
Rex
(65,616 posts)2-4.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)
Ms. Toad
(34,073 posts)
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I don't care to personally bother so I'll just paste this here.
And one more time, Andrea Dworkin never said “All Sex is Rape”… but how many times does that have to be said for anti-feminists to believe it?
Friday, October 26, 2012 0:41
Java man
What did Andrea Dworkin mean when she said “All men are rapists” Also: “Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.” Why do feminists idolize this man hater so much?
Toto
I will answer your question fully below, but a better question is this: Why do so many people–usually anti-feminist men–keep claiming that radical feminists said those things, when it’s been demonstrated again and again that they never did?
Proof that what you claim she said is a lie is below. I notice you and the others promoting these misquotes as truths don’t ever quote the next two–and I will be happy to let you know where the quotes come from: “I have spent 20 years writing these books. Had I wanted to say men are beasts and scream, that takes 30 seconds.” — Andrea Dworkin (Modern Times Interview of Andrea Dworkin With Larry Josephson, on “Modern Times”, American Public Radio, 1992, as accessed on Sep. 5, 2010.)
I notice you and the others promoting this nonsense don’t quote her saying this: “I came here today because I don’t believe that rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.” — Andrea Dworkin
The answer to your question is easy: She never said “All men are rapists” and neither did any other published feminist such as Marilyn Frye or Catharine A. MacKinnon, which is why you and others can’t cite the quote from any of their books. (Putting quotes around the words with Dworkin’s name in the same sentence doesn’t mean she said it.)
Now, if she actually said and wrote it, wouldn’t you think you (or anyone else) would be able to tell us in which book or article or speech it appears? They never said “All sex is rape” either and the proof is linked to here and below: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinnon.asp
This is the truth: John Berger once called Dworkin “the most misrepresented writer in the western world”. She has always been seen as the woman who said that all men are rapists, and that all sex is rape. In fact, she said neither of these things. Here’s what she told me in 1997: “If you believe that what people call normal sex is an act of dominance, where a man desires a woman so much that he will use force against her to express his desire, if you believe that’s romantic, that’s the truth about sexual desire, then if someone denounces force in sex it sounds like they’re denouncing sex. If conquest is your mode of understanding sexuality, and the man is supposed to be a predator, and then feminists come along and say, no, sorry, that’s using force, that’s rape – a lot of male writers have drawn the conclusion that I’m saying all sex is rape.” In other words, it’s not that all sex involves force, but that all sex which does involve force is rape. (Source for this paragraph is here and below: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2005/apr/12/gender.highereducation)
For more on why so many people describe Andrea Dworkin, a human rights activist, as a man-hater or as someone who said the nonsense you are spreading here, see this excellent article: http://www.andreadworkin.net/memorial/jenson.html
As for the other quote, you take it out of context. It’s not a statement of fact. It’s an observation based on evidence which is part of a larger discussion on the reality–a fact–that so many men hate and abuse women in and out of bed (which is the serious social and global issue, not what feminists think of men): “But the hatred of women is a source of sexual pleasure for men in its own right. Intercourse appears to be the expression of that contempt in pure form, in the form of a sexed hierarchy; it requires no passion or heart because it is power without invention articulating the arrogance of those who do the f—ing. Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men’s contempt for women; but that contempt can turn gothic and express itself in many sexual and sadistic practices that eschew intercourse per se. Any violation of a woman’s body can become sex for men; this is the essential truth of pornography.” — Andrea Dworkin (Source is here and below: http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IntercourseII.html)
I hope the readers here appreciate the difference in meaning. It’s quite significant. Sources for the above: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinnon.asp http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2005/apr/12/gender. highereducation http://www.andreadworkin.net/memorial/jenson.html http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/dworkintribute.htm http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IntercourseII.html
“An activist and writer at the blog, A Radical Profeminist”. 2012-10-26 00:30:06 Source: http://radicalprofeminist.blogspot.com/2012/10/and-one-more-time-andrea-dworkin-never.html
http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2012/10/and-one-more-time-andrea-dworkin-never-said-all-sex-is-rape-but-how-many-times-does-that-have-to-be-said-for-anti-feminists-to-believe-it-2465298.html
Out of Time Man
(141 posts)I recently got in an argument with a family member who believed Dworkin stated "All heterosex is rape". These resources are excellent for further debunking this talking point.
Bookmarked!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Helping to take the air out of anti-feminists' sails brings me no small amount of joy 
Lunacee_2013
(529 posts)I wish we could rec posts.
Response to redqueen (Reply #9)
ForgoTheConsequence This message was self-deleted by its author.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Hence, I suppose, the proliferation of especially violent/abusive porn where the actual sex is almost an afterthought to pure humiliation.
And certainly I understand she was criticizing the conflation of violence/domination with sex, not sex itself. One area in which I completely agree with her.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It truly breaks my heart to see some simply accept these lies as truth.
I did the same, before. Simply accepted the vilification of women like Catharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin. I mean the men spewing the lies were progressives like me, so why would I assume they were lying?
That was a hard lesson. Very eye-opening though.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the ass once i realized how wrong i was, not to mention those feeding me the shit. how dare i condemn the women that fought the battle cause some man did not like said feminist. an ass. is what i was. yes. lol
never again
Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)Even after you post this, the OP has neither the guts to come back nor the decency to self delete the lies...
No rape culture... Sheesh.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Wise decision.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Like the lies spread by the right about so many issues, they are accepted uncritically by many. But once you see them repeated despite the facts being shared, you start to realize that, like the right, many spreading these lies are not concerned with facts, they are spreading disinformation in order to push an anti-feminist agenda.
We know rightwingers see the light sometimes, see through the lies and are grateful to those who educated them. When we see someone stubbornly ignore facts in order to cling to that agenda... well...
thucythucy
(8,056 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,073 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)Rape is as high here as in most nations on earth and prosecution and sentencing are extremely low. You have no earthly idea what you're talking about. Rape culture is simply a way of describing the kind of factors that go into the making rape so prevalent, prosecution inadequate and sentencing lenient. It's about a judge giving a child rapist a thirty day sentence because he claimed the 11 yr old seduced the man. It's people blaming rape victims for what they wear, or describing sexual assault by college students as guys being guys. Rape culture is hundreds of thousands of rape kits going untested around the country because police departments place a low priority on solving those crimes.
I don't know what kind of game you're playing, but it's incredibly offensive. Denying rape culture is like denying rape. You are minimizing the severity of a crime that affects 25 percent of women in this nation and a good percentage of men as well. Not only that, your post is entirely incoherent and displays not even the most minimal understanding of the topic. It appears to me you haven't bothered to read even one article posted on the subject or you wouldn't talk about rape culture as an "excuse." The only excuses are those made on behalf of assailants and efforts to keep rape victims silent. That is a part of rape culture and why the crime is so common.
Archae
(46,328 posts)That means there is a burglary culture.
A vandalism culture.
An assault culture.
A fraud culture.
Etc...
Rape is violence.
Rape is criminal.
When crime becomes a "culture" in an area, that area degrades.
Just look at any area where meth is rampant.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)I started typing out a response, but it isn't worth it.
More and more, DU isn't worth it, it seems. So thank you for that.
mattclearing
(10,091 posts)I hope you don't let this sort of thing reflect upon the entire community.
Warpy
(111,266 posts)Because you really, really don't get it.
RC
(25,592 posts)He has listed some good points.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)victim wasn't really victimized because they were only robbed, not cut up also?
I think you do not understand the term and also think you do not care to.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)for rape. That's the difference. Generally speaking, mugging victims aren't criticized for their choice of clothing or level of intoxication.
kcr
(15,317 posts)Even though there was evidence the burglar did it? That ever happen?
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)First off, that judge that gave the 30 day sentence...he didn't follow the law and he's going to be thrown off the bench. Situations like that don't happen every day. The judge is an idiot.
Do rapists get away with their crime... sure. Just like murderers get away with it sometimes. I know it sucks but the accused is innocent until proven guilty. I mean what exactly are you wanting to change here? That men accused of rape should be guilty until proven innocent based on statistics showing women rarely lie about rape? I know this really, really bothers you but you never say what you want to change here.
What is YOUR solution that will routinely put rapists in prison while also protecting the 1 out of 100 that is truly falsely accused?
Response to BainsBane (Reply #10)
Name removed Message auto-removed
alp227
(32,025 posts)So much wrong with your post I can't even begin. You don't even know the basic definition of rape culture. Furthermore your assertion about "most" of Steubenville being against the now-convicted rapists is groundless. A New York Times report from Dec. 2012 stated:
If we didn't have rape culture, rape victims wouldn't be harassed via social media.
If we didn't have rape culture, Jameis Winston would be banned from football for life.
If we didn't have rape culture, our culture would be a lot more friendly to women who dare express sexual autonomy.
But in the real world? These. things. do. not. happen.
mythology
(9,527 posts)So you're saying that he should be banned because he was accused. You'd have a much better example if you had pointed to how the police botched the investigation. And even without the accuser's contention that the police told her to back off because Tallahassee is a football town (because there's no confirmation of that), the police really did screw up and screwed up badly in that investigation.
But to say that somebody should be banned due to an accusation seems to indicate that the truth and due process don't matter.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)in order for it to matter.
if you are talking the florida football player, the issue was the truth did not matter to the police, town or fans and the due process did not happen.
THAT leads us to call foul, whether guilty or innocent cause we do not know. we do know that neither truth or due process was to be had
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)She was a truly vile person.
I will say this: a rape culture can still exist even if a majority of citizens do not support it.
Just as there can be a drug culture even if most people don't do drugs or sell drugs.
Out of Time Man
(141 posts)I honestly don't even know where to begin with your OP, but I guess a good place to start would be establishing a shared definition of Rape Culture, and what it can look like.
Given your OP and your responses in this thread, it appears that you legitimately don't understand what Rape Culture is.
I think it's imperative that you do some research before you continue to put forth statements insisting that Rape Culture doesn't exist in the U.S., as such statements are inflammatory at best, and divisive at worst.
Hopefully, the following link will provide some insight.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Oh, oops, it's the National Rifle Association, not the the National Rape Association. This is the culture we should be concerned about, the real one, not the ginned up one.
Out of Time Man
(141 posts)Gun violence and sexual assault are both prevalent in this country, both very real issues.
I'm pretty sure people can be deeply disturbed and concerned about both at the same time, without one having to take a backseat to the other.
Rape Culture is not "ginned up". It's a real problem, not one conceived by Straw Feminists.
An excerpt from the article, "25 Everyday Examples of Rape Culture"...
"We understand the word “culture,” from a sociological or anthropological viewpoint, to be things that people commonly engage in together as a society (ranging from the arts to education to table manners), and we find it difficult to link the word “rape” in with that concept.
We know that at its core, our society is not something that outwardly promotes rape, as the phrase could imply. That is, we don’t, after all, “commonly engage” in sexual violence “together as a society.”
To understand rape culture better, first we need to understand that it’s not necessarily a society or group of people that outwardly promotes rape (although it could be).
When we talk about rape culture, we’re discussing something more implicit than that. We’re talking about cultural practices (that, yes, we commonly engage in together as a society) that excuse or otherwise tolerate sexual violence.
We’re talking about the way that we collectively think about rape.
More often than not, it’s situations in which sexual assault, rape, and general violence are ignored, trivialized, normalized, or made into jokes."
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)are the MSM ( Misanthropic Sycophant Monsters ) and are so detached from the tyranny, they excel at making light of it. Welcome Out of Time Man !!! is that from Steely Dan ?
Out of Time Man
(141 posts)I appreciate you welcoming me to DU...I've been lurking here since 2009, and finally decided it was time to create an account and join the fray.
As for the user name, it's actually from the title to a song by Mick Harvey, though I'm a huge Steely Dan fan myself!
Cleita
(75,480 posts)has been a criminal act. There is a gun culture in this country. Guns are legal and you can even kill people these days legally in certain states with stand your ground laws. That is the difference. To call rape a culture, which implies it's an acceptable practice in our country is simply disingenuous and meant to gin up controversy. It's a passive aggressive way to shut down discourse.
Out of Time Man
(141 posts)...my response to your post, or didn't take the time to read the excerpt I posted from the article, "25 Everyday Examples of Rape Culture".
Rape Culture does not mean that we endorse or find rape acceptable, just as gun culture doesn't mean we as a society endorse murder or gun violence in general. It's the way we think and talk about rape victims, the legislation surrounding rape, and the like. It does not require tacit endorsement to exist.
A "passive aggressive way to shut down discourse"? Given the numerous threads about this topic, each with a great deal of discussion, (this thread alone generating 300 responses at the current moment) I honestly can't see how you can come to that conclusion.
If you would like to engage in a legitimate discussion about Rape Culture, I would highly recommend taking the time to read the abundance of literature on the topic, instead of stamping your foot, declaring Rape Culture as non-existent by defining Rape Culture as the open acceptance and endorsement of rape (which, as been discussed at numerous points in this thread and others, is what Rape Culture COULD look like, but isn't limited to those narrow parameters).
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Heidi
(58,237 posts)From a very early age I, like most women, have thought of rape as a part of my natural environment - something to be feared and prayed against like fire or lightning. I never asked why men raped; I simply thought it one of the many mysteries of human nature."
Archae, I would suggest that you give some thought as to how victims of rape and attempted rape--both male and female-- and girls and women in general experience US culture. This might inform your views of whether rape culture exists in the US.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)many around, being a small town. Suddenly a man's voice came, "where are you going honey". and damn it! 50 yrs old and aome asshole hodea in the tall grass to harass me and make me fearful as I walk along. To hell with that. And he probably just thought it funny, to make me afraid.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)I'm 51 years old and have never felt I had to dress modestly, avert my eyes, walk in well-lighted places, or avoid alcohol at parties in order to avoid being defrauded or having my home burglarized or vandalized. But you can bet that avoiding rape has been a red thread running through the life experience--and from a very young age--of every woman I know.
ETA: I have had the same experience you've had, uppityperson. And it sucks.
Response to Heidi (Reply #34)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)any real thought or connection.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #60)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Heidi
(58,237 posts)says the new member.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
mercuryblues
(14,532 posts)ever walked down the street just once afraid that some stranger will grab you, put a knife to your throat and stick his dick up your ass? How about in your home? Have you ever been almost asleep and not quite remember if you locked a door or window? Get out of bed to check not in fear of being robbed, but in fear of someone getting in and shoving his penis down your throat?
How about on a date or at a party. Have you ever had to carry your drink with you to the bathroom to keep an eye on it to make sure no one slipped something in it, in an effort to knock you out so you can't say no?
You know, because I would rather be robbed than raped. I would rather my car stolen and chopped up than me kidnapped and chopped up, I would rather be mugged than raped.
Then if you do follow how not to get raped advice, you still can be raped. Only still the victim's behavior is questioned...were you drinking, were your doors locked, why did you go out with him, what were you wearing, did you do or say anything that could have thought you wanted him, did you flirt with him. There are no visible bruises, are you sure it was rape.
Then after all of that, after all of that rape test kits sit in storerooms for decades, while the rapist rapes more women. The file gets put in a drawer and never investigated.
Response to mercuryblues (Reply #117)
Name removed Message auto-removed
mercuryblues
(14,532 posts)yes it does have to specifically be that.
You may have other things to worry about that women generally don't have to. Don't you mean some women? I am not denying that, nor and I minimizing it. As an AA, I am sure you do worry about things that I as a white person don't. However, I am not about to say because I don't personally experience it or have to worry about it, it doesn't exist.
Instead I prefer to recognize it and do my best to not contribute to it. I do not defend it by denying it exists. Giving those that participate in poor behavior less and less room to work in. I will not minimize the way some people feel by saying well I have this, this, and this to worry about instead so your issues are of no concern to me. Instead I choose to empathize with a person and their struggles, knowing that even though they are not the same; they are there.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)Even after they've explained and provided context for these.
Why is that?
Response to uppityperson (Reply #31)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Response to seabeyond (Reply #67)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)discuss it on du cause you do not want to hear it?
if you deem the issue should even be discussed, you will discuss it with women in your real life? instead, we are to allow you to totally dismiss this by insulting us and dismissing us. at 20 posts?
Response to seabeyond (Reply #79)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)in but dismiss? why the need to denigrate those discussing the issue?
few posts, yet you feel that you need to enter a thread you oppose and dismiss all concern without any consideration and thought?
ya... we get it. we know what that is.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #82)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)a lot about du for so few posts. you sound familiar. do i know you?
Response to seabeyond (Reply #87)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)derailing conversations feminist have and dismissing womens concerns?
ok
we get so many, repeatedly, zeroing in for attack, so often. i start to wonder if maybe it might be something else.
thanks for the explaining, that you have merely been lurking for years and only just decided to jump onto a thread about rape culture to tell all us women how wrong we are about... well, everything.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #91)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)reading your other post, in another thread.... all melodramatic, we should stfu cause other women elsewhere have it much worse, and you believe in evo psych.....
tells us so very much.
Response to Name removed (Reply #97)
Name removed Message auto-removed
pintobean
(18,101 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)It seems it depends on who does it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)If you aren't going to listen to anyone, why participate at all?
Or is it just women you refuse to listen to?
Only on DU is it assumed what you said is not true. As if we men have nothing to compare too, except for a certain Group around here.
I'm sure we all have mothers, sisters, girlfriends, work colleagues, neighbors, in real life to counter the dysfunctional ideas around here.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)faith that you have these women confiding to you.
regardless of what you may state otherwise.
adios, ....
the thread is a wonderful example for du to see how far we have not gone.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)That women are raped? Or that women dare speak about issues that concern them in public? What is dysfunctional is rape. What is dysfunctional is trying to turn a social and cultural problem that results in the violation of civil and human rights for millions into an attack about personal pathology. What is dysfunctional is men who insist women have no right to speak about issues that concern them in public. What is dysfunctional is the profound disrespect for other human beings that leads to the trivialization of rape and comments that concern over it's impact is somehow dysfunctional.
You could simply trash the thread if you didn't want to read it, but that's not enough. You must come in here to tell women that they are dysfunctional for speaking in public about a common crime. That they are mentally ill or damaged because they care about something that affects hundreds of millions of people across this planet. It appears to me they are not the ones who are dysfunctional at all.
Just what is it that you find so threatening and disturbing about conversation about violent crime? Just why is it you feel a need to attack women who speak out these issues?
RC
(25,592 posts)When it is the result of when people experience a traumatic event and they use that bad experience as a shield to hide behind, when they lash out toward others, as if the other were somehow responsible, by not being properly in agreement with and supporting the resultant anger being inflicted by the injured party on those around them.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)My xgf, as you call her, was only put forth as an example. When she couldn't keep it together anymore and her façade fell, there were a lot of similarities between her attitude toward men in general and certain members here.
And BTY, I did get help because of her. Something that seems to be antithetically forbidden by those that most need it. So I recognize the problem when I see the symptoms posted. Counseling works for those that want it to. It can make one a better person and easier to get along with also.
Do you want to link to that post you referenced with the "xgf", or would you rather I do? I think it deserves wider circulation.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)mentally ill doesn't make it so. It just makes you a shit flinger.
RC
(25,592 posts)All I am suggesting is that sometimes people need help. That is all.
You, an the other hand are twisting my words into something I am not saying, implying, or even suggesting. What does that say about you?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)projecting onto hof.... again.
i think. if therapy does not help with the pain, i have a whole process of tuning within.... and coming to peace in stillness. i can certainly help you along. anytime
peace....
RC
(25,592 posts)#Fail!
Not projection, experience. I'd explain it to you, but you, or one of your sisters-in-arms, would twist it out of recondition, so I won't bother. All you are doing is proving my point anyway, even without any explanations.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it. gave us the story, the back ground and an example of exactly that.
later dude. i mostly ignore your posts. going back to that.
take care of self. need the help, i will be there.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)At all. She merely said her rapist didn't consider his assault on her rape. You are angry that she has the audacity to speak in public. The problem is entirely yours, but once again you present yourself as the victim for reading what a woman writes. No one forced you to enter this thread. You did so in order to tell us our concerns are illegitimate. You are the one filled with anger, not her. Anyone who reads this thread can see that much, yet you will ignore it because you consider the very existence of women who dare speak about subjects you don't first approve of an affront. You can end this all by putting us all on ignore or simply trashing threads you dislike. Then you would never have to think about us again. But if it were a question of simply not wanting to deal with things you wouldn't spent so much of your time telling women what they aren't allowed to speak about. You get some sort of satisfaction about attacking rape survivors and then playing victim. No one feels sorry for you, and no one here is interested in your lectures about how she should behave.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)I'm not "emotionally damaged". I'm not using my experience to lash out at anyone. I'm not blaming anyone but my rapist for what he did. I'm not even angry. It's been over a decade. I'm in a good place. I don't need your concern or your condescending demands that I seek therapy.
I said something I learned from my experience about how rape culture works. That's all. I definitely didn't volunteer myself to be used as a case study or object lesson in how to cope in an RC-approved way. My rapist's mentality was all I mentioned, I never volunteered to discuss my coping process.
You need to stop and you need to apologize, because this is entirely inappropriate behavior.
RC
(25,592 posts)When I first responded to you, you were one of the more down to earth people in the thread.
Now I'm not so sure. Why are you internalizing and assuming everything I post in this thread is about you? It is not. If it were about you, I would be responding more specifically more of the information in your posts. You are just another poster in this thread and would have faded into the noise here. But no, you keep responding to me as if I and after you. No, I am not. You are only one of many here.Until now, you were barely on my radar, if at all.
Advocating help for a group of people that need help is not something to apologize for. And I am bewildered at the flaming here for even suggesting it.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)6. The person who raped me almost certainly doesn't think of himself as a rapist.
That's what rape culture means. A cultural de-emphasis on and misunderstanding of the need for consent.
Star Member RC (25,584 posts)
141. Have you sought help in dealing with the hurt of being raped?
If so, did you follow through?
Stuffing hurts makes things worse in the long run, as ithey will always find a way out, and not in a good way either.
You took my observation about the mindset of my rapist and decided to turn to intrusive questions about my mental health. When called out on this you doubled down. That's the context for your remarks about rape and mental health care on this thread.
It's deeply offensive and I insist upon an apology.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)Because odds are 25 percent of them have been raped. I have to wonder why you are here if you are so determined not to listen to women. Do you refuse to listen to men on internet forums because you know men in real life, or is it just women here who are so unworthy of basic respect
Response to BainsBane (Reply #222)
Name removed Message auto-removed
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)I wasn't calling you out personally either, I was referring to the people talking about rape culture in general. Why would I listen to them, rather than women who I actually trust and respect?
You don't know the men on this site here either, yet you decide the women are unworthy of respect. That begs two questions: if you are incapable of treating people online with respect, why do you participate in internet discussions, if you care so little what people you don't know have to say? Or is it just rape victims who are so unworthy of respect? You do realize you have decided a large percentage of the population is unworthy of respect because they care about a violent crime that targets a good 25 percent of women and 10 percent of men.
You also don't say if you've ever talked to the women you know about these issues. Because they have not raised the subject matter with you doesn't mean they aren't concerned, or haven't been raped themselves. Chances of your not knowing any women who have been raped are virtually non-existent given how common the crime is. I imagine they might know you are the kind of person who would react as you have here and as a result not want to talk to you about personal and painful matters such as sexual assault.
Response to BainsBane (Reply #248)
Name removed Message auto-removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)different than how people view any other crime. how we often see murder and others crime promoted in this manner. do explain this, telling us how common this is in all areas of life. and it is not just focused toward rape of women and girls. you know, chants made up by men and boy. no means yes. sayings... once she hits puberty, free game. jokes, shows,
tell us all, like we are a bunch of fools, that what we see and live is really just an illusion, women, kept being so fuggin hysterical and emotional
Chan790
(20,176 posts)I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I can't get those fuckers to remove kiddie porn, death threats against the president or other nauseating content that explicitly violates their ToS...but they're all over making sure nobody posts that picture of the cancer survivors' chest-piece tattoo.
I really want to know who and where Facebook finds the people they employ to review ToS violations...because they're goddamned morons and as an underemployed person, I'm certain I could do a better job.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Lunacee_2013
(529 posts)Let me start off by saying that I don't think that all sex is rape, not even close.
However, everyday you can see degrading pics/vids/lyrics of (or about) women, and yes, even men in the media. Even after the Steubenville trial, a female reporter seemed to worry more about the convicted rapists than the victim. She wondered what this would do to their lives, with little regard as to what the victim was dealing with.
Women in America deal with sexual harassment, grouping, cat-calls, stalking, assaults, and rapes on a daily basis. Rape culture is here, it's been here since white slave owners could rape their slaves without anyone giving a damn.
Maybe you don't understand how it's being used. It's not an excuse and its not placing blame on anyone but the rapist and the people who dismiss rape. It's just a tool to describe the ugly underbelly of the world we all live in.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)When presented with the correct facts. That should be shameful.
Oh wait. Fox and repute do that. Seems common
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Being uneducated while lecturing others
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Saying "Andrea Dworkin was bad therefore there's no such thing as rape culture" doesn't make it go away.
When one woman in six has been the victim of rape in her lifetime; when pretty much 100% of women have been the recipient of gratuitous and uninvited sexual harassment for just being out in public; when most women are significantly and constantly aware of the potential threat of sexual violence, and that curtails their freedom of movement in ways that men don't even have to think about...going into a convenience store after midnight, walking along an unlit street after dark, being very obviously alone in many public places? Being home alone and having someone knock at the door to sell you something, or read the meter, even? All things which are potentially risky and viewed as such by many women; how many women do you know of who carry pepper spray or a personal alarm on their keychain? Versus how many men?
You can't say "rape culture doesn't exist in the US" when the threat of sexual violence against women is constant and everywhere; you can't say "rape culture doesn't exist in the US" when "well you shouldn't go out dressed like that" is still seen as a perfectly reasonable response to women's fears of sexual violence.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)You mean to tell me one woman, twenty-seven years ago said something you don't agree with, that could be called asinine?
No frickin' WAY, Man!
If I posted a fraction of the stupid crap man have said over the past MONTH concerning women and our reproductive systems and sexuality - including that we are irresponsible if we use birth control and that we should be pregnancy tested in bars - I bet I could roundly trump that antique comment you've dredged up.
But please proceed, Archae.
When you get done grabbing crap out of the past, why not explain what Jimmy Carter was talking about this week concerning the epidemic of rape on US college campuses? He full of it? Or does he merely have some anti-sex agenda?
I'm surprised it survived a jury.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)Bigfoot has been sleeping in his Camaro.
tblue37
(65,377 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Are you denying that a large percentage of women experience violence and abuse at the hands of men?
Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)I can't say I'm surprised MRA's are lying about that as well.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)they do dworkins statement 4 decades later. all sex is rape.
no, that is not what she said
kinda like repugs. have to promote a lie to get backing. and all those that do not educate themselves to the lie, allowing it to feed and grow. what a way to choose to live life. very sad. not to mention extremely damaging
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Quote and citation needed.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Please, crack open a newspaper before authoring such drivel.
eShirl
(18,493 posts)the kindest thing I can write here is that I hope you're just playing devil's advocate and don't seriously believe what you wrote
cali
(114,904 posts)that there is a rape culture in this country. It's more subtle than in many other countries but it exists.
I am the victim of child sexual abuse and rape as a young woman.
tblue37
(65,377 posts)
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Please recognize this as an opportunity for you to gain more from being more of a receiver of knowledge, rather than being a giver of knowledge.
There's a few things that you can do to fix this particular situation that you're in right now. If you're interested in hearing how to do that, I'll be right here for you.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)You seem to be implying that saying "We have a serious problem with sexual violence in this society" = saying "All men are rapists." Which is such a massive, blundering leap in logic that it almost doesn't deserve to be dignified with a response.
And rape culture as an "excuse" used by rapists/misogynists? WTF? How can they use it as an excuse when they deny it exists and even ridicule the concept?
Threedifferentones
(1,070 posts)This post is either ignorant or disingenuous. This is an OLD misrepresentation of Dworkin's arguments in Intercourse, and even if it were an accurate summary it would be irrelevant to today's other thread about rape culture.
I'm reminded of the scene in Half Baked where Dave Chappelle's character tells a support group about his "addiction" to marijuana...
BOO THIS MAN! BOOOOO! BOOOOOOOOOO!
ismnotwasm
(41,984 posts)Well thank you for that. I'm incredibly relieved but your reinsurance, and anecdotal evidence. I'll just toss out the books and articles and classes I've taken that support the idea of rape culture.
I'll tell the women I've known--it's quite a few more than than one and much more recent than 30 years ago that have been held captive and raped--often prostituted out--the guy is no doubt in Timbuktu.
I'll tell the forensic and women's health nurses I know that rape culture doesn't exist to they should expect to lose their jobs poste haste.
We can tell women roofies are a thing of the past because there is no culture of acceptance. Also while were are it all those collage campuses that are, men and women both, protesting rape culture that it doesn't exist in the US.
Perhaps we can continue to ignore the 400,000 back logged rape kits here in the US, or the abysmal conviction rate. Of course Detroit did just process a whole 100, and found 12 serial rapists- but what rape culture?
I'll write letters to courts informing them "what she was wearing" and the legalize terms for "she was asking for it" is irreverent so stop saying that.
We'll just tell rape victims potential rape victims to live in fear, and take proper precautions, shall we?
MineralMan
(146,316 posts)actually read Andrea Dworkin's writings. In the second place, you are simply incorrect in your assessment of the society.
Thanks for reading my reply.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)experienced life on land or air.
The topic "rape culture" refers to prevalent attitudes. Things that are accepted unconsciously.
marshall
(6,665 posts)I remember my graduate class in the late 80s that introduced me to feminism. We learned that any sexual contact in the workplace cannot be divorced from the element of power that the individuals. And that even when consent is seemingly present, it is still an egregiously inappropriate action when there is a huge power difference between the two parties.
A few years later I considered this in context of Clarence Thomas and Bob Packwood and it seemed to echo what I had learned. But then the Clinton situation reoriented my view away from the power and back to the consent.
It continues to be a thorny issue with many sides to consider.
PlainJane1
(8 posts)So when the man was a Republican, it reinforced what you learned about "the element of power" and "egregiously inappropriate action", but when the man was Bill Clinton, suddenly the situation "reoriented your view"!
Good god, no wonder women are where we are. It's about WOMEN, not PARTY AFFILIATION!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Here's what the largest rape victim advocacy organization in the US had to say about the topic.
In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.
While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are
common in many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., “masculinity”), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the
individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.
In an article critical of RAINN, Jessica Valenti interviewed its president.
RAINN President Scott Berkowitz told me that the memo to the White House Task Force to Protect Students From Sexual Assault wasn’t meant as a thorough critique of sexual violence in America. He agreed there are systemic issues: from untested rape kits to justice system treatment of survivors. But he stood by the passage about rape culture, arguing that the term “muddies” the conversation about how to help survivors and risks alienating allies. “Many people interpret it — men in particular — as accusatory,” he said. “We need to encourage their good instincts rather than pointing a finger.”
He's absolutely right, and with this simple message to the White House they are doing more to bring justice to rape victims than all the rape culture rhetoric combined.
Rape culture rhetoric fails for multiple reasons, but primarily this one: It doesn't propose any solutions. Unless they intend to outlaw porn, masculinity, sports, dirty jokes, bars and advertising, it's nothing more than impotent griping.
Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)Yet MRA's will continue to try and twist and out right lie about the statement from RAINN.
So very fucked up.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 30, 2014, 12:56 PM - Edit history (1)
Not enough context? Then here's the next three paragraphs;
Research supports the view that to focus solely on certain social groups or “types” of students in the effort to end campus sexual violence is a mistake. Dr. David Lisak estimates that three percent of college men are responsible for more than 90% of rapes. Other studies suggest that between 3-7% of college men have committed an act of sexual violence or would consider doing so. It is this relatively small percentage of the population, which has proven itself immune to years of prevention messages, that we must address in other ways. (Unfortunately, we are not aware of reliable research on female college perpetrators.)
Consider, as well, the findings of another study by Dr. Lisak and colleagues, which surveyed 1,882 male college students and determined that 120 of them were rapists. Of those determined to be rapists, the majority — 63% — were repeat offenders who admitted to committing multiple sexual assaults. Overall, they found that each offender committed an average of 5.8 sexual assaults. Again, this research supports the fact that more than 90% of college-age males do not, and are unlikely to ever, rape. In fact, we have found that they’re ready and eager to be engaged on these issues. It’s the other guys (and, sometimes, women) who are the problem.
One of the root causes of "the systemic issues", is rape culture rhetoric itself.
Men tend to vote for Republicans in part because the collective guilt directed their way by feminist organizations. Those elected Republicans in turn apply that bias against women in myriad ways including failure to prosecute actual rapists.
Probably the biggest reason I hate rape culture rhetoric is because it gets republicans elected.
"Rape culture" is a concept completely without any tangible policy recommendations. It has no purpose except as a framework to transfer the culpability of the 3% of men who rape onto the 97% who do not. It may be worth dying on a sword in support of the stuff you want done. It's something else to do so solely in support of ones stereotypes and bias.
RAINN is getting the picture. They know what "rape culture" rhetoric is doing to their fundraising and public support and is changing course. It's time that the Democratic party do the same.
Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)"The systemic issues, have as one of their root causes, rape culture rhetoric."
Systemic issues are caused by pointing them out and talking about them? What a massive load of shit that only an MRA could possibly come up with.
What drives your hatred of women that you need to make such crazy shit up?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)You appear to think that you're an elite baiter, when you're in fact only (charitably) a master.
The lack of introspection on the issue of the gender gap in voting is tremendously damaging to society and to women's issues in particular. When people who think as you do are asked to explain why men have fled the Democratic party, the response is usually a self-loathing "because men suck, and are stupid and hate women".
Maybe, just maybe, it's appropriate to think about that personal framework just for a microsecond.
Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)"When people who think as you do are asked to explain why men have fled the Democratic party, the response is usually a self-loathing "because men suck, and are stupid and hate women"."
I don't think men hate women, I think MRA's hate women.
I also don't think men are fleeing the Democratic party, I can't find anything to back that claim up. More women are voting D but I suspect this 'men are fleeing because of feminists' is simply more MRA bullshit.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Instead of thinking of this as a validation of our own biases, perhaps it would be best to think of it as a problem to be solved.
Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)I do notice you did not even try to back that crap up... MRA's are so very fucked up.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)You'd like me to interview each of those voters?
Logical fallacy #1: "rape culture rhetoric" = "feminists"
There's very little gender gap about the issues. There's very little disagreement about abortion between men and women, for instance.
Polling about the issues can't explain the gap, which leaves matters of rhetoric, and "rape culture" with it's complete absence of tangible policy recommendations, is entirely rhetorical.
Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)"Men tend to vote for Republicans in part because the collective guilt directed their way by feminist organizations."
Stop dancing and back this bullshit up.
"The lack of introspection on the issue of the gender gap in voting is tremendously damaging to society and to women's issues in particular. When people who think as you do are asked to explain why men have fled the Democratic party, the response is usually a self-loathing "because men suck, and are stupid and hate women"."
It is clear you are claiming that men are fleeing the Democratic party because of feminists. I say you are full of shit and that there is nothing to even remotely back that bullshit up.
You gonna back it up or just keep dancing?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Since men and women mostly agree about the issues of policy, = true. That leaves rhetorical differences.
Rape culture, with it's complete absence of policy recommendations is not worth losing elections over.
Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #167)
Post removed
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)judging by all these jury results, the Men's Rights Activists have infiltrated our juries and only hide when people argue against MRA posts.
one hand is clapping for y'all.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I take some comfort in knowing that many of those ridiculous alerts are responsible for constraining some of our more habitual button-pushers to one press every 24 hours.
I think that you confuse an echo chamber for consensus.
Me? I agree with RAINN (or they now agree with me, I suppose). If that's controversial, oh well.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)do you not like this place and what it stands for? do you want MIRT to put all those trolls back onto DU so they can post anti women bullshit again?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)What I stand for is independent thought, honesty, logic, rationalism and winning elections.
What I don't stand for is posting polls for the stated purpose of harvesting the names of people who answer wrong, for instance.
I'm always willing to discuss issues - with you or anyone. Sadly, too many people are completely incapable of functioning beyond the level of ad hominem.
When the conversation turns to meta, as you have predictably done here, it's time to find a new thread.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)but I'm totally smitten with you. Just wanted to let you know. 
You are a fantastic person!
Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)I'm a pretty big believer in equality on all fronts and I think NOT speaking up for it is the biggest mistake any of us can make.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)agreed. respect totally. regardless of the problems it may cause us, i can look in the mirror.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)put aspirin between our knees too, betcha.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)need to be punished are the same men who snicker when Rush Limbaugh calls feminists "feminazis" and Sandra Fluke a whore. That fact that this ridiculous claim is being made on DU and the admins allow it speaks volumes.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)feminist organizations."
Wow.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)before?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)And that must explain why I tend to vote to the left - because I've never yet been the target of 'collective guilt' directed my way by 'feminist organizations'.
I'd like to see somebody go out and ask a large sampling of guys to simply name as many 'feminist organizations' as they can. I like to think I'm at least somewhat savvy, but since it's not my area, I don't know if I could name a single 'feminist organization'. I know of some organizations created by and for women, like Emily's List, or AAUW, or even NOW, but I don't know that I'd call them 'feminist organizations'. Who exactly are these 'feminist organizations' going around directing collective guilt at my gender?
DU has some really clueless commenters. I don't know how you can keep from pounding your keyboard into small pieces when I see some of the stupid you ladies and male allies have to put up with...
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)This is the kind of tripe they allow here now, I hope they are proud of it. This thread has attracted every woman hating moron on this website.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)It could not be any clearer.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Really, I'm done with being tactful about this. We've asked for the TOS to be amended to include misogyny, and we were pretty much ignored. Some men here interpreted that to mean they could say whatever they wish about women and feminists without consequences.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,073 posts)Unfortunately, it has become clear to me that the admins are tone deaf on this issue.
tblue37
(65,377 posts)tarring all men with guilt for the crimes committed by 3% of men. Rape culture refers to pervasive cultural attitudes and institutions and to the features of the social environment we all participate in, not to whether men as a group deserve to share in the guilt of those who commit sexual assaults.
The fact that it is considered *normal* for women to asssume that they are at risk for sexual violence in so many situations, and that they must therefore take all sorts of precautions to protect themselves from being raped, even in situations in which a man would not fear being a victim of criminal assault, is a sign of rape culture.
Yes, it would be foolish for people to saunter unprotected at night in a high crime area, because they are likely to be mugged, perhaps even killed if they do.
But should a person really need to feel *the same* expectation of criminal assault if he or she attends a party in a perfectly respectable area, in the company of supposedly law-abiding people of good reputation? Are men taught never to attend such a party alone, never let their drink out of their sight, never let themselves be alone with another party-goer or accept a ride from someone else, because if they do, they are quite likely to be mugged or even killed?
No, because unlike sauntering foolishly along a dark street in a high-crime area, attending a party in a "safe" area among supposedly law-abiding citizens is not supposed to be as dangerous as walking heedlessly through a minefield. Yet women have to be taught to treat what should be safe situations as if they are as dangerous as being alone at night in a high-crime area, because for a woman, being among "respectable" people in a safe area is *assumed* to be potentially *unsafe* in a way that it is NOT presumed to be unsafe for a man.
That is not because most of the men at such a party would rape her, nor does it mean that most of them would consider it okay if someone did rape her (though we know some might do one and some might think the other). It is because as a society we have accepted it as normal that women must be on guard at all times against rape, because unlike other kinds of assaultive crime, which people are unlikely to be victims of unless they go somewhere or do something unquestionably unsafe, and unlike other such crimes, which men are at least as likely as women to fall victim to, if not more so, the threat of rape and other sorts of sexual violence is something that most women are aware of whenever they are alone and not barricaded behind locked doors, or whenever they are in the presence of a man they do not know well enough to trust absolutely.
And as some DU survivors' stories have shown, even knowing and trusting a man is not always a guarantee that the woman will not be raped.
Imagine, men, if you went to a party knowing that if you didn't watch your drink, didn't make sure you were never alone, didn't accept *any* offer of a ride from someone (even an acquaintance), didn't make sure you never got a bit tipsy--that if you didn't take ALL of those precautions, then there was a real chance that someone, maybe even someone you knew, would grab the opportunity to beat you up and take your wallet. Then, if you complained about it afterward, your friends would say that what happened was too bad, but why didn't you take reasonable precautions? Everyone knows that getting beaten and robbed is something that can happen to a man if he goes to a party and then let's himself get separated from his other male friends, doesn't stay sober/watch his drink, gets alone into a car with someone other than the friends he came to the party with, etc.
And then, if he decides to file a police report, imagine the cops treating his being beaten and robbed at a party with his peers as something trivial and besides that, something that he should have expected and taken those "sensible" precautions against.
See? That is why rape and other forms of sexual violence are not like mugging, murder, etc. In terms of being free of the risk of sexual assault, no place is really "safe" for a woman, and a woman who leaves herself "vulnerable" might even be assaulted by someone she knows and believed she could trust. That is not true of other sorts of crime.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
If yes, then it suggests that the rhetoric is all about eliminating the distinction between rapists and the other 97% of men.
Any man who says that this poster prevented any rapes is a person to be avoided at parties. Men who rape are bad men. It's why 97 of 100 men don't and two of the remaining three are responsible for 6 rapes each on average.
The attention focused on "educating" (or tombstoning) the 97 could be better directed at finding, prosecuting and incarcerating the three.
And yes, rhetoric exemplified by this poster alienate men from the Democratic party.
Men and women disagree very little about policy, so the reason for the huge gender gap in voting must be about rhetoric, and rape culture is entirely rhetoric, it doesn't include ANY policy suggestions on how to fix it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)they dismiss.
isnt it just juicy ironic that they dismiss the relevance of rape culture, as they state we need to go after the colleges, making rape a crime and not a college board issue. THAT would be the rape culture that allowed colleges to have a board to judge a crime, instead of calling the cops and letting the criminal and judicial departments dealing with said crime
you understand the in our face obvious rape culture, coming from rainn themselves. totally reinforcing for all of us, the product of rape culture and the damage it does when going unrecognized.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)“Many people interpret it — men in particular — as accusatory,”
It's not that it doesn't exist. It's that people want to feel offended that it exists, and that mentioning it somehow 'accuses them'.
It's like saying it's a bad idea to discuss structural racism, because it offends white people, and makes them feel like they're being accused.
The problem is, you just can't create a sea change in culture if you never acknowledge the problems you want to change.
I grew up on a steady diet of rape culture movies. My whole notion of 'what college was' was based on bad teen movies until I actually got there, and didn't wind up in the frat system. The 80s in particular was full of movies like 'Revenge of the Nerds', wherein the 'heroes' of the movie did things like set up hidden cameras to voyeuristically spy on naked women, or find 'clever' ways to trick them into sexual encounters because they thought they were having sex with someone else. Any movie that had 'party' scenes, especially 'college' movies, basically taught the lesson that the only realistic chance socially awkward teens had to have sexual intimacy was to find drunk women who were incapable of rejecting unwanted advances due to intoxication. And it continues to this day in movies and songs. The notion that males should be 'sexually aggressive' and that women are to be valued for sex above all else is an undertone in all sorts of movies and music.
At the same time, schools across the country were and are being prevented from actually teaching anything about sexual intimacy other than anatomy and physiology, because people are too squeamish to have real discussions about sexual intimacy in schools.
So guess what? If you're not teaching your kids, and your schools aren't teaching your kids....crap tv, movies, and songs are. And the teen years are all about establishing pecking orders and peer pressure. Unless you find ways to teach them that pushing young women into sex they really don't want or aren't ready for is a bad thing, they're just going to assume it's a 'normal thing', because they hear about it in songs, they see it in movies.
And the fact that every single guy out there doesn't become a rapist doesn't mean there's no reason to keep on pumping out songs and movies that suggest you can get sex via 'trickery' or inebriation, or even simply dominance displays. Because some percentage of guys actually are going to follow the bad advice in songs and movies.
If you're not committing rapes, if you're not encouraging ideas that lead idiots to feel they can commit rapes, you've got reason to feel 'accused', and every reason to help discourage the people who are.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)a) those people were in some way capable of bringing about the change that you desire
b) that the change you desire is attainable, or at least defined
c) the people you're offending wouldn't otherwise be allies
re: your last paragraph
I'm not committing rapes. I'm not encouraging ideas that lead idiots to feel that they can. I'm relieved to know that y'all aren't talking to me, and that I'm in no way responsible for rape culture.
Who exactly on DU do you have in mind as targets for the awareness, other than "Not You"?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)more action...we all know that rape is wrong....where we break down is what constitutes rape.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Anything that focuses attention on the acts of the guilty as opposed to the innocent is beneficial, and is in fact what RAINN is saying.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)There ought to be a Godwin's law for feminists/women's right discussions
Godwin's:
Godwin's for Feminist/Women's Rights:
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i ma gettin off to play.
have a good one
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)But you get my drift.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)isn't fairly examined if not accepted. Radical feminism, on the other hand...
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)but even in towns like Steubanville, most of the townspeople are horrified and disgusted by what "the boys" did.
Please provide a link for that claim, otherwise I'll just assume you pulled it out of your ass.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)of rape.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)I'd give the townspeople the benefit of the doubt that on the whole they're good decent folks who sympathize with the victims and don't actually condone rape. But they sure as hell didn't speak up about it when the "boys" were not charged. Apathy is a big part of rape culture. I've certainly been guilty of it myself. We ALL need to do more to change it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)just fuggin educate, be aware and help. please. lol
Skittles
(153,162 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Is it some men don't see rape culture out of ignorance or is it some men refuse to acknowledge rape culture, because their ego won't allow it?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)they can get away with without getting banned. 
Rex
(65,616 posts)DU3 was a huge eye opener.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)So easy to see now.
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)One night a friend and I were headed back from a concert and we saw a lady with her car broke down on the turnpike. We pulled off to see if we can be of help especially since my friend is a mechanic. The lady looked visibly scared as we approached got into her car and didn't roll down her window to talk to us and basically said she's gonna wait on a friend and a tow truck. On a different note I see it everytime I pass a woman on the street at night yes I'm a big guy but I notice more than once they avert they're eyes and sometimes purposefully cross the street or reach for something in their purse. Those experiences says there is a very deep rooted fear that goes through a lot of women in society that they can't walk down the street or break down without being scared that something terrible will happen to them
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)that fear ( that every woman worldwide knows) personally. We all wish we could tell the good guys from the bad guys,but we can't.
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)All they know is there's a 6 foot tall 270 pound man that's coming toward them. They're decision has to be made on their safety nothing else.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i expect though. those in this thread dismissing and derailing, understand, dont care and have a different agenda. there are always readers though, not making comments.
Ms. Toad
(34,073 posts)as a male. I wish more would really stop and pay attention.
Response to Archae (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Texasgal
(17,045 posts)
You need to get your head out of the sand and get on the research train! All ABOARD!
Response to Archae (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Matariki
(18,775 posts)Shame on you and your "scare-quotes"
Response to Matariki (Reply #242)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Matariki
(18,775 posts)joined just for this did you?
Response to Matariki (Reply #254)
Name removed Message auto-removed
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)and admins are paying attention.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)"Newbies" indeed. Thinking the OP created a new account just to kick and recommend his own stupid post. And yeah, I'm sure MIRT will clean this up soon enough.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)pab or benny. Maybe both.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)
pintobean
(18,101 posts)is the ppr reason. Maybe all the above. 
The rec still counts, though. That needs to be fixed.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)
tblue37
(65,377 posts)It does NOT mean that most--or even many--ordinary people approve of rape or think it is not a crime or that it should not be punished.
Your misinterpretation of the concept is similar to the misinterpretation that leads people to reject the idea that racism is institutionalized in our society.
H2O Man
(73,552 posts)damaged person.
Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)I think that only proves it does.
Fucking insanity.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,756 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)To call it a culture is saying that it's an accepted practice. It's not. Now gun culture is just that because it's acceptable and legal to own guns, to kill with those guns even in some places human beings because of stand your ground laws. That is what a culture is, an acceptable practice within a tribe of people. We don't have that acceptability in this country for rape to be regarded as part of our culture.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)"Rape culture" wasn't supposed to be a literal thing as far as I've been able to read.
With that said, though, I still think I see the point here; rape has not ever been acceptable to a majority in this country even in days long past.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Rapists tended to find themselves hanging off of trees with no way to get down.
And today they are permanently branded on lists that anyone can find online.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)internet communication issues but notice even with clarification, there are those who just do not understand. I do not know if it is because they do not care to understand, if they are stubbornly or incapable of saying "I was wrong, learned something here" or if they support the rights of men over women.
It is unfortunate that even on DU, people can not understand such issues.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)To be honest, and I mean no offense by this, it does seem that you may have misunderstood the original context behind the coining of "rape culture": like with "white privilege" it was meant to be more of a philosophical thing, albeit perhaps a bit radical, but still something that was intended to get people to think.
With that said, however, I do believe "rape culture", as a term, does have its flaws when applied to the real world as a whole. And you are certainly correct on one thing: the news media not too rarely does a terrible job when confronted with a rape case.
RandySF
(58,855 posts)I also remember no one taking her seriously.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)It absolutely does.
Will it ever go away?
Not as long as the vast majority of men and women buy into it.
Hence why some members are tired of being badgered by it.
My recommendation is to use the trash feature early and often. It really solves many problems.
[URL=
.html][IMG]
[/IMG][/URL]
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)CFLDem
(2,083 posts)The strongest power in the universe is "This is how it should be because this is the way it always has been."
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)why should it matter, nuthin' will come out of speaking up anyway.
no thanks. i have never been that. will never be that. and have not taught or allowed boys to be that. no one in my family would dare be so lazy and noncommitted in life. what a boring life that would be. ya ya ya. i get some want ot live that. not me for sure. nor people i want to be around. i want them to live and be life.... it is ours to create. and dontcha forget that.
lol
just sayin'.
now, i am done 'til later
cui bono
(19,926 posts)What does she have to do with your argument and today's current rape culture?
Also, you're just flat out wrong about what she said as it turns out:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4752337
And why did you bring up that story about your "friend"? You just threw it in there in the middle for no apparent reason.
Your OP is one jumbled mess. If you want to prove your point, which is impossible since it's just plain wrong, you really should think things through a bit better and come up with something coherent. You just jump around different subjects throughout. You could have simply written an OP with only the title "rape culture doesn't exist" and said made as much of a point as you did in that mess.
But anyway... here's my thoughts on rape culture:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=13577
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=13579
I think an analogy would be that bacteria causes the infection, but the surroundings that allowed that bacteria to thrive is the "culture". So yeah, the individuals are the ones who actually rape, but the rape culture is what allows it to happen and be gotten away with and have far to lenient sentences way more than should happen.
Ms. Toad
(34,073 posts)The thread rec function has created a pretty short list of people (thank goodness) I would probably be happier ignoring.
I may use it as an experiment, since I don't - as a rule - ignore people.
niyad
(113,315 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,073 posts)and only ended up ignoring about half - one of which was PPRd the next day. We'll see how it works. I had one person on my ignore list before this thread (I think related to a specific heated discussion). I now have a half dozen - perhaps life will be more pleasant.
Response to Archae (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)cussing someone out.
When I got raped, I got told by all the townspeople where I lived that I deserved it for being a lesbian. Even the local GOVERNMENT RUN mental health facility told me I needed to "get right with God" instead of helping with my PTSD. I got no help, needless to say, just more preaching from asshole right wing Christians who run this place with an iron fist.
Rape Culture DOES fucking exist.
Take your mansplaining elsewhere. When you walk a mile in a woman's shoes and experience the types of bullshit we have to experience then get told you deserved it, then come explain how Rape Culture does not exist. You wouldn't do it if you had to experience what it is like to be a woman in this country or any other country. You would be curled up in a ball on the floor crying like a baby, because you would be surprised at just how much fucking bullshit you have to put up with every fucking day. You wouldn't be able to handle it.
Your post is one big lie. You have no clue what you are talking about. Stop typing nonsense and start learning.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Response to Jamastiene (Reply #342)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)then told you deserved it, asked for it, and should STFU about it and just take it.
Your post is laughable. What a fucking joke.
Response to Jamastiene (Reply #353)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Rex
(65,616 posts) sufrommich
(22,871 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,984 posts)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)to say the least.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Oy veh. I don't know that I've ever seen such a public demonstration of misunderstanding a concept in my life (including the myriad posts denying privilege right here on DU).
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)One of the major problems in any discussion is that people take someone who gets a lot of news recognition, and makes them the face of a movement. Andrea Dworkin is no more the whole of feminism than Camille Paglia, Susan Faludi, or Germaine Greer, all of whom might very well have loud, bitter arguments with each other if it were possible to get them all in a room together.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)Here is the truth... 
to redqueen for the info.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4752337
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the woman with no fact, claims to a truth. just whatever his imagination can throw out.... he started an op
weird
Rex
(65,616 posts)Now that you know she DID NOT say those things.
