And seeing more and more people like me - - stable, middle aged women with a soft spot for animals - - adopting them.

My little girl is the sweetest dog I've ever had (don't tell my lab). So glad BSL is getting turned over in so many places.

They have, at the very least, showed people that they can be loving, forgiving, amazing creatures.

The only complaint I have about her is she hogs the covers at night.

I still wouldn't have them around kids under 10 or so. It's not that they are bad tempered or dangerous in that way, it's that when kids who don't know any better provoke them, they do a huge amount of damage with their bite.

I don't cross the street. Nice people have nice dogs and most of my neighbors are nice people here in the War Zone.

My friends are all rescuers or vets or groomers etc so all their children were raised knowing how to approach strange dogs and are perfect little ladies and gentlemen, but my little girl LOVES kids so much that she gets all wound up and since she is, as her vet calls her, "a little muscle plug" she is likely to knock a little person over. She is also shamelessly in love with my 74 year old dad and even though he's still fit and muscular, his skin has thinned a little and he's forever mopping up streams of blood on his arms from her love taps. But even he, a guy from the Bronx who isn't really an animal lover per se, loves her so much that he doesn't mind asking for a bandaid every time he comes to stay.

I agree also Warpy, that nice people have nice dogs. I was once accused on this board of having "something to prove" because I own a pit bull...this person clearly has not met nice pibbles owned by nice, suburban middle class ladies. Nothing to prove, just lots of love to give an abused bait dog with a wiggle butt and eyes that would melt the coldest heart.

Unfortunately many people who own these animals are poor dog trainers or try to make them aggressive for use as a home defense weapon. (Of course some pit bulls are bred and trained for fighting which is a true tragedy.)

When I lived in Tampa, I encountered many aggressive pit bulls. Now that I have retired, I have moved to a small rural town in North Florida. All the pit bulls I have seen here are well trained with the exception of two that an elderly lady had penned up in her yard.

People often buy what they consider to be extremely aggressive dogs to defend their property. Many years ago Doberman Pinschers fit this role.

When my Black Lab passed away due to old age, I asked the vet what breed he recommended. He suggested a Doberman which surprised me. He assured me that the craze of owning an aggressive Doberman had largely disappeared and had been replaced by owning aggressive pit bulls and Rottweilers.

Personally I do not favor owning an aggressive dog. The most I would wish that a dog would do is to sound an alarm if there is an intruder. I can handle the problem from that point.

One of my beagles could hear my wife's car when is was still half way down the street.

Years ago I owned a Norwegian Elkhound. He was a great dog but he would alarm at ANYTHING strange in the neighborhood.

He would allow a stranger to enter the home if I approved but he would lay in the living room watching every move he made. When he got up to leave I usually had to grab my dog's collar.

My Elkhound would have been a great alarm dog in a more rural environment.

I often wondered if someone had broke in while I was not home if the Elkhound would have watched him until he tried to leave and then aggressively try to stop him. Fortunately nobody ever tried to break in while he was alive.

Thank you for the smile.

The problem is the people and how they treat their dogs. Not the breed.

Canine profiling, indeed.

"... and humans that think otherwise are who are dangerous."

These are dogs, not people.

And if you aren't liberal enough or evolved enough to experience compassion for someone who doesn't fit your narrow definition of "people" - I can only pity you.

Nuff said.

I have a five year old pit bull mix and she is my constant companion. She is full of love and likes to be close to me all the time. Owning a dog is a big responsibility and something is expected of the owner; to teach the dog how to behave and have good manners and to NOT teach it to be mean or aggressive. The dog needs to learn what is okay and what is not. It is sad that pit bulls have gotten such a bad rap while at the same time people let them reproduce like crazy. The city of Dallas puts down an average of eleven pit bull mixes everyday. So sad.

Pick a series of features that scare suburban moms but don't actually have any bearing on danger, ban them, and pretend like you've done some good.

Killing with a gun takes almost no effort at all.

She showed me the pic on her phone. Lost a chunk of her face the size of small pizza slice.

Bad owners love pit bulls, and then more and more pit bulls end up in pounds to be adopted by other owners, both good and bad. They are a plague.

Around here the irresponsible breeding of Pits is simply out of control and is taxing our local shelters to the brink.

Nobody's talking about rounding up peoples' pets and we don't really need to "ban the breed", but we should be looking into reducing their numbers. This benefits both sides of the argument... fewer pit bulls means fewer canine and human attack horror stories and fewer people calling for them to be banned.

calling for them to be banned?

Don't ban, just reduce as then fewer people will be scared demanding them to be banned?

a "kill pit bulls first" policy at dog pounds.

Dogs are put down all the time. Why not put the ones that kill more humans than other dogs down first?

you were instead trying to categorize by some random physical characteristic like short hair and stocky.

Kill perfectly good and innocent dogs because of their breed???? Yeah thats a GREAT idea

But, I do know of a Black Lab in our town who bit his owners nose and upper lip off.
The dog was sleeping and she was laying on the floor next to him...reached out to pet him and he jumped up and bit her. So you never can tell about any dog.

Which is to say, not much at all. The AKC breeding standards of the American Staffordshire Terrier aren't even what most people mean when they say "pit bull".

Scientifically, what's to stop someone from selling a mutt while claiming it's a pure Corgi?

Sort of like the alleged types of fish at supermarkets, though there we are at least talking about different species and genera.

Andrew Sullivan did a piece on this when he found out his "beagle" was a mix of a basset and some kind of terrier.

baldguy's not going to believe this, but your simple statement gives me pause to reconsider my thinking on this whole subject.


Thanks!

It's just when you're buying from some dude who breeds his dogs in his backyard, you can't be sure.

The problem is there's two ways a breed is defined (this is how it's like race in humans): genetically (bassets are descended from bassets) and breeding standards (bassets have a phenotype that matches the AKC definition of the basset). As we learned with human eugenics, those two things don't work together nearly as well as people think: descendants of bassets may be "too tall" or have insufficiently droopy jowls, while descendants of other breeds may match the standard perfectly.

Which leads to the other question: if you want to ban a breed, do you ban it based on genetics or phenotype?

Using the assault weapon analogy above, there's no point in banning the X-38 Super-Death Machine Rifle if the manufacturer will just produce the un-banned X-38A Super-Death Machine Rifle. Better to base the ban on relevant traits of the weapon.

I have to disclaim that I'm not inclined to be charitable toward specific dogs that cause serious injury or death. At the end of the day we're talking about property that has injured or killed a person, so I don't see that rehabilitation of that property should be a priority. I know that this likely puts me at odds with those who advocate passionately for the dogs.

By the way, I'm all for punishing the dog's owner as if the owner had personally inflicted those injuries, so they don't get a pass from me either.

If your dog mauls someone, legally I think you did.

The assault weapon problem is even worse; about half the guns banned were simply "banned by name", so famously the TEC-9 was rebranded the "AB-10" ("after ban&quot . Or the rifle used at Sandy Hook was legal under the ban because it didn't have IIRC a bayonet lug (I mean, the bayonet deaths out there on the street are getting out of hand, but still...) I think the problem there is that the relevant features (semi-auto, taking removable magazines) are so widespread that banning that would alienate way too many people. OTOH California banned that and the world didn't end. (Though they also ban chinchillas, so that may just be a state culture that's more used to it. On the other hand, you can buy unpasteurized milk in the stores.)

But that probably applies to pit bulls, too: if you're worried about physical strength you'll need to ban all Molosser phenotypes, which is way too many dogs to be politically palatable.

We will get one when we can spend time with it. The show "Too Cute" said that the Pit Bull was known as the nanny dog in the UK at one time because it is good with kids. All of the people I know that have one say the are lovable and sweet dogs. We actually took one flying with us when I was on active duty. That one was aggressive because the owner taught it to be. My wife wants a Pit Bull puppy when we decide to get a dog.

And I'd rather take my chances with a nippy Chihuahua.

see how far you get with that.

Any fool with an axe to grind can update it - which is what has already happened with the dog bites page you linked to.

You don't update it because you know your edits will not be accepted. The current information is documented. Your information is not. You come at this with the methods of a conspiracy theorist: You make wild claims that you refuse to support with evidence, and then when evidence is presented that refutes your claims you call it lies.

And it's plagued by the same popular stupidity that allows creationists, Teabaggers and anti-Pit Bull zealots to exist & profligate endlessly on the internets.

your opinion that all the actual research is lies does not count as "original research"

And you think pit bulls haven't?

You think every Pit Bull is a killer?

Do you think dachshunds have killed people?

Do you think pit bulls have killed people?

When someone is injured by a supposed Pit Bull. Your selective outrage proves your insincerity.

The facts are: overall, dog bites are comparatively rare occurrences; when they do happen it's because the dog was not properly trained & socialized, or when the dog is neglected, abused or tortured; Pit Bulls aren't any more prone to biting than any other dog - and are generally less aggressive than the average dog; and ultimately THE BREED DOESN'T MATTER!

And it is clear why you won't. That's fine, but don't expect to start OPs without being asked them and called out when you refuse to do so.

Police, child protective service officials, and the doctors who examined Holden told his dad that the injuries were not consistent with dog bites because the cuts were too neat. The only person who knows what really happened – Holden’s mother – has checked herself into a drug treatment program and is not talking to police or family members.

Pit bulls are impossible to ID when it's a bad story but easy to ID when it's a good story.

And breed doesn't matter except when it's to show how great pit bulls are compared to those dangerous chihuahuas and dachshunds.

Of course by baldguy's reasoning, claiming dachshunds are aggressive is just racist.

Origins: " Eventually, these dogs were bred to participate in an inhumane blood sport called “baiting.” Spectators found it highly entertaining to watch bulldogs pitted against bulls, bears and other large animals. During these violent events, one or more dogs were expected to attack another animal, biting it around the face and head. The dogs usually maintained their grip until the animal became exhausted from fighting and loss of blood. After animal baiting was banned in the early 1800s, people began pitting dogs against each other, and the cruel sport of dog fighting was born." They were bred to kill. Hunting dogs are bred to hunt. Guard dogs are bred to guard. Traits, including physical and mental, are bred for.

You're quoting one paragraph out of 30 on the ASPCA's page on Pit Bulls, while you dishonestly imply that this view is representative of the ASPCA - when in fact the passage you quote is about the Pit Bull's history.

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/truth-about-pit-bulls

The fact is the ASPCA - JUST LIKE ALL NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED ANIMAL WELFARE GROUPS - opposes the type of Breed Specific Legislation that Maryland has thankfully voted to outlaw.

...in the same story you link to. Need something more concrete:The Influence of a Fighting History

When two dogs fight, the conflict is usually ritualized. The objective is for one dog to win the disagreement with little or no bloodshed. The participants try to intimidate each other by engaging in plenty of dramatic-looking behavior, which may include posturing, circling, growling, showing teeth and snarling. Bites delivered during a fight are typically inhibited because the point is to cause pain but not necessarily to inflict serious injuries. Pit bulls have been bred to behave differently during a fight. They may not give warning before becoming aggressive, and they’re less likely to back down when clashing with an opponent. When provoked, they may become aggressive more readily than another breed might. Sometimes they don’t inhibit their bites, so they may cause injury more often than other dogs.

Or you could read the whole article you link to. There's that term 'bred to'

And it's a lie.

The ASPCA says they're bred to be killers, not me.

"That's not what the ASPCA says"

But actually, that's exactly what the ASPCA says. From the web page you neglected to link to:

"Pit bulls aren’t all bad. They’re not ferocious beasts to be feared and reviled."

and

"Despite this bad rap, a well-bred, well-socialized and well-trained pit bull is one of the most delightful, intelligent and gentle dogs imaginable. It is truly a shame that the media continues to portray such a warped image of this beautiful, loyal and affectionate breed."

You're lying when you imply otherwise.

Any dog can bite, but pit bulls are responsible for far more human deaths than any other breed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States#Summary_tables

In 2013, pit bulls were responsible for almost 50% of all fatal dog attacks on humans. It was pit bulls 48%, all other breeds combined 52%

Dog breeds are not human races that need to be protected. Almost every breed has been engineered by humans and there's no reason we shouldn't be able to rid ourselves of a breed if it becomes problematic.

The actual figure is 3-6% - not 48%.

Just follow the links and read the actual articles - you'll find that in nearly every case, the breed was never actually proven to be a Pit Bull via DNA testing or verified breed registries, and that the breed ID was done visually, which is no better than random chance in ID'ing the actual breed.

If you really want to know which breeds are implicated in the most fatalities, go here.

Remember genocide can only be evil

Dogs are not people, and breeds are not separate species.

For every pit bull saved by some supposed do-gooder, another dog they didn't adopt dies.

And in dogs, the various racial groups are called "breeds".

If you're trying to make your position sound less evil, you're failing.

First of all, to disavow any negative traits about any breed of dog just undermines your credibility. For instance, I have shared my home with Scotties all my life. I happen to think they are great dogs... for ADULTS who don't mind a stubborn, willful, territorial dog not known for being overly friendly to strangers or patient with children. They are not golden retrievers. Scotties are stout, muscular little dogs bred to kill rats, badgers and vermin; as terriers they can be very feisty. I appreciate their independence and style but am also mindful of their faults. I would never recommend the breed I love to a family with small children and I believe their breeding, as with any dog bred to a specific purpose, should be strictly regulated.

Pits were bred to guard and to fight. Admit it. Their massive heads and jaw strength make them especially dangerous in the hands of too many owners and when they do bite, as any dog can do, the results can be catastrophic. The backyard breeding of these dogs is epidemic and is straining local resources to the limit. Folks who love Pits would do well to recognize these dogs aren't King Charles Spaniels and advocate that the breeding of Pits should be strictly regulated.

As well as my Scotties, I've also had many mixed breed rescues share our home over the years. But when we have adopted shelter dogs, we are also mindful of the kind of dog breed we think we can handle and would suit the kind of environment we can provide.

German Shepherds were bred to herd sheep. Golden Retrievers were bred to retrieve game. Bull Dogs were bred to fight bulls.

But all dogs have been bred for 30,000 years to be human companions & part of human families. And no matter what the breed, all dogs need to be properly trained and socialized to be happy & well-behaved. People who try to gloss over that fact, and continue to blame all members of only one breed for the failings of a few humans, have no credibility at all.

"Bred to guard and to fight." And, lol, sorry, "massive heads and jaw strength"

Genocide refers to people. Using it for animals is hyperbole.

My Pit Bull is a better "person" than most humans are.

There's nothing wrong with eliminating violent breeds.

And genocide is always evil.

And dogs are not people, so eliminating a breed wouldn't be "genocide."

gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides
1.
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
synonyms: mass murder, mass homicide, massacre;

So they're not necessarily more violent, depending on how you define that, but they're certainly more dangerous.

Show me the world wide study, please. It should encompass all dogs, both domestic and "wild" as well as all people. It should cite sources that can be verified and not just news reports.

Your statement. Back it up.

But it's a sufficiently obvious claim that I'm afraid I'm not going to put much effort into arguing it with you - if you don't believe it, it will be because you ignore evidence when you don't like it, and so presenting more evidence won't help.

The idea that some groups of individuals are "unworthy of life" is disturbingly familiar.

of those attacks?

THAT is disturbing.

They're still not people.

You would

A) allow the assholes who created them free to create more

B) murder 18 million good dogs, and

C) Ignore other bad dogs because they don't look "bad".

Again, disturbingly familiar.

Texas Home"

Texas police say an elderly woman was attacked and killed by two "large and aggressive" pit bulls inside her home Monday.

Dorothy Hamilton, 85, was in the living room of her home in Kaufman, southeast of Dallas, when police say two of her son's eight pit bulls broke through a bedroom door and mauled her to death, according to CBS Dallas-Fort Worth. The two dogs involved in the attack had been kept in the bedroom for months.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/02/pit-bulls-kill-woman-texas_n_5075670.html

NOTE - there are TWO independent attacks reported in the story - the second was just an attack on Mother and Daughter - did not result in a death.

Pretty much a daily event - we are becoming numb to these stories.

Because we all know problems with visual breed identification.

And neither of those stories say how the dogs were trained, socialized & generally treated.

The fact is there are dozens of dog-bite incidents all over the country every day:

NOT a Pit Bull:
http://www.kfvs12.com/story/25147411/woman-concerned-after-a-neighbors-dog-allegedly-attacks-grandson

NOT a Pit Bull:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/great-dane-attacks-kills-golden-retriever-in-wentzville-dog-park/article_9e226dff-a461-5ef8-82b0-a609ef7f20bc.html

NOT a Pit Bull:
http://www.therepublic.com/w/VA--Dog-Attack

The ONLY time these rare occurrences get hyperbolic national exposure - and the ONLY time you seem to care about them - is when the dog is supposedly a Pit Bull. And you never show any concern over the neglect & abuse the dog may have suffered. Selective outrage proves your insincerity.

seems the stories refer to dogs without a breed being stated.

Of course the victims survived those incidents, so I suppose it could be argued that a pit bull was not involved.

"When I think of what that poor baby went through, I just, it's horrible," said Jeannie Plass, Mackenzi's paternal grandmother. "The left side of her face is pretty much chewed up. And she has a cranial fracture. Her scalp was lacerated. Her shoulder was broken and lacerated as well. As well as her upper leg."

Police said Mackenzi's mother, Chelsi Camp, was dog-sitting for her boyfriend when the dog attacked the girl. She said the quick action of League City Police Officer Massey saved Mackenzi's life.

"He was wrestling the animal, took a shotgun and while he was wrestling it, shot the shotgun to make it let go. They had to kill it for the dog to relax, to let go," said Plass.

Mackenzi's grandmother said the little girl has had three surgeries and has many more cosmetic procedures to come. But some damage, she said, is beyond repair. The toddler was in pediatric ICU at Memorial Hermann.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/league-city-girl-2-recovering-after-pit-bull-attack/25313680

wonderful family pets!!!!

They are way too expensive to ever be let loose or end up in a pound. There are certain families of tightly bred bulldogs that can be extremely aggressive to other dogs and animals. They are selected for breeding based on their desire for fighting contact no matter the outcome. Interestingly, despite their aggressiveness with other animals they usually love people and thus make lousy guard or attack -type dogs.

Always.

but that seems rather counterproductive long term to producing the type of dog these folks are looking for

And any abused dog is liable to be unnatural & problematic aggression issues. The breed doesn't matter.

If such a thing were even possible.

They exercise them sure, have routines like treadmills and flirt poles, and they work with them to strengthen the human-dog bond - but those particular lines of dog I speak of just LOVE to fight. That's the whole idea and about the only creature who could train them in that respect would be another bulldog. BTW, I don't approve of dogfighting but some people run these animals on wild hogs which is even more cruel IMO. At least the PB's want to fight each other. BTW, I notice you have a nice looking dog in your avatar.

To teach these "killer" dogs how to kill. They aren't born with the desire to fight. It's beaten into them. And 90% of those bait dogs are Pit Bulls.

BTW, that dog you're admiring is one of those. Her brothers were "born" to be "killers", and she was intended to be a puppy factory - at least until she was too old, then her brothers (or her children) would have been forced - through torture, pain & coercion - to kill her.



The same fate as her mother.

These dogs, if left on their own - wouldn't in a million years be able to evolve such horrific behaviors. It takes HUMANS to create this literal Hell on Earth for Pit Bulls.

It's a sad, sick & overall EVIL reality that the anti-Pit Bull zealots represented by some of the posts here have the very same views of Pit Bulls, and promote the very same treatment of them as those who get off on watching Pit Bulls tear one another apart.

I don't care what they've been bred for, they have to be trained - that's a fact. Ask any of these scum bag dog fighting handlers if they train their dogs, they do and they have many methods, some of those methods being pretty brutal. Certain attributes can certainly aid in their training and abilities, but they all need training. They don't come out of the womb ready to kill everything in sight because if they were, we'd have a hell of a lot more deaths than the 20 something we have per year, A LOT more. "at least the PB's want to fight each other" - give me a break. They are trained to do that.

A pit bull named Lucas was seized from Michael Vick's ring back in 2007. This dog was considered his most successful fighting dog, his "champion", and he had the wounds and scars all over him to prove it. A federal judge ordered he was to stay at the Best Friends Animal Society for the duration of his life because he was considered to be the most challenging. He was rehabilitated by them but he died last year from illnesses that he got because of his fighting days. In seven years all the way up until his death, this dog NEVER attacked or bit a person, he was quite the opposite. He was extremely friendly and loving. If a dog like that can come out the other side of fighting and become what they called a "cuddle bug", that is truly amazing. He was trained to fight and then he was trained and rehabilitated to be a good dog. Most of his dogs came out the other side, many of them are actually service animals now.

Pit bulls can be dangerous in the wrong hands, that's true for any medium to large sized dog. Unfortunately pit bulls are the breed of choice amongst scum bags who think it's cool to fight dogs or have an aggressive one at their side or chained up in their back yard. That's why you're seeing it with pit bulls more than the breeds that used to be in the news all the time, Dobermans and Rottweilers. Back when they were popular amongst these psychopaths, you hardly ever heard about pits attacking people. But now all of a sudden you do just in the last ten or fifteen years .... is it because pit bulls just suddenly after two plus centuries of breeding are born ready to tear people apart? No, it's because they are the flavor of the moment. Dobermans and Rottweilers didn't have any special propensity to be vicious, no more than pit bulls are now. The bullshit is the same, it's just the breed that's changed.

I've worked with a lot of pit bulls and they were wonderful dogs ... owned by good responsible people. You think there might be some correlation there perhaps? Pit bull rescues take in a lot of neglected and abused pit bulls, but you don't see them getting attacked left, right and center. Less than 1% of the entire pit bull population ever become a problem. It is still one of the most rarest ways to die in the United States compared to thousands of other things that kill scores more people, things you would never dream of.

The key is they need responsible owners, but that is true for any animal.

There are a lot of morons owning these dogs now for the very reasons you state and that's the biggest problem. The breed was better off 30 years ago when their very existence was practically top secret and their numbers few. There's tons of so-called "pit bulls" now, some of them actually Am Staffs and various mixed breed animals that look like an actual APBT but are not. It's not surprising a lot of ex-fighting champions make great pets. They usually love people, it's other dogs (and animals) they tend to go after.

pit bull being one of them.

and be honest certain breeds are more aggressive than other and you say otherwise, you're just lying to yourself.

Last edited Fri Apr 4, 2014, 11:34 PM - Edit history (1)

That Chows aren't listed

That you feel qualified to comment on the contents of a link you didn't bother to visit.

Sort of like this whole discussion, isn't it?

But I'm not sure it's right to make the landlord liable. He/she might not even know that the tenant has a pit bull, as the tenant could lie.

It's good to see intelligence rule over emotion, assumption and flat-out dumbassery for a change.

I hate the ugly fucking things. I hate the fact they swallow what they maul. I hate what they have done to little children, dogs, horses, old ladies ........ on and on. There has never been an animal ever as evil as the American Pit bull terrier.

It'll be a good day for all living things when the last pit bull draws its last breath.

They don't respect normal dog submission rules.

When a normal dog gives up and goes into the submissive position, that's when the fucking pit bull tears it's body apart and eats it.

Here's a video of your little darlings doing what they do best;

WARNING THIS IS THE MOST GRAPHIC VIDEO I HAVE EVER SEEN. IT'S GRUESOME.

It's the reason I don't take my darling Australian shepherds out in public anymore. I don't want to meet people like baldguy and his pit bull. My dogs stay on our farm.

http://ilpuncut.com/video/MzUyMzA

And you neglect to save any blame for the monsters in human form that work diligently to create & train aggressive dogs through abuse, neglect and torture. These very same monsters who - and this is not mere coincidence - share your views of Pit Bulls.

And safety regulations with "genocide".

'Cuz both totally and per capita they kill a hell of a lot more children every year than pit bulls.

But then again, hate is never rational, is it?

Really?

Fucking Merritt Clifton?

What else do you get from Fox News at their ilk? Let me know when Ms. Lynn updates her bullshit website to reflect that her work in Maryland just got rightfully shot to hell, hence the OP.

Merritt Clifton...lol. And the CDC. Are we bombing the moon again too? LOL.

for your obvious phobia of pitbulls. It isn't healthy.

Word salad is delicious.

So can most dogs. i remember when colleague and I delivered literature for the election he was bitten badly by a dog that looked like a wolf. Not sure what breed it was. We have coyotes in our yard.