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Dr. Robert Sapolsky and the Keekorok Baboon Troop (Original Post) redqueen Apr 2014 OP
I hadn't heard of this study or Dr. Sapolsky, but it's damned interesting. Thanks ... 11 Bravo Apr 2014 #1
He's written several books, and even better Iterate Apr 2014 #10
thank you for the info. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #12
KnR fascinating Hekate Apr 2014 #2
Very interesting! johnp3907 Apr 2014 #3
There's a NYT article and plenty more too. redqueen Apr 2014 #4
Yeah, I watched that video and bookmarked some things to read. johnp3907 Apr 2014 #6
I've read about this before. Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #5
Well,exactly. For humans to reap the benefits, all those alpha males have Nay Apr 2014 #7
I'm in a sort of Jonathan Swift "Modest Proposal" type mood this evening. Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #8
Oh, I know. Maybe there's something we can put into the air that would Nay Apr 2014 #9
A legal alternative Shankapotomus Apr 2014 #19
i did nto see this. thank you. totally awesome for a number of reasons. i say the same. seabeyond Apr 2014 #11
Kick! This needs to be pinned somewhere! Squinch Apr 2014 #13
just cause i think this post is so much fun... seabeyond Apr 2014 #14
Thank you for posting. That is really interesting. K/R n/t justhanginon Apr 2014 #15
missed this, very cool RQ. n/t seaglass Apr 2014 #16
Wow, this is fascinating MadrasT Apr 2014 #17
There are totally some important lessons to take away from that! Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #18
I don't know... I think the message that a certain social system or pattern of behavior nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #20
I think primates (-other- primates, I mean) engage in an awful lot of behavior that any objective Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #21
Yet there are those who constantly compare human behavior to primate behavior - which of course nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #22
Bonobos actually get brought up fairly often LadyHawkAZ Apr 2014 #24
True. I was talking specifically about MRA's using the "primate" argument though. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #25
Unfortunately, I have seen people suggest that LadyHawkAZ Apr 2014 #27
How many people actually take this Mary Daly batshit craziness seriously? nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #28
Yeah, it's a bit like Westboro Baptist in that way LadyHawkAZ Apr 2014 #29
One Senses a Program For Action Here, Somehow, Ma'am.... The Magistrate Apr 2014 #23
Mass murder is hardly to any sane person's taste. But perhaps a nonviolent way of discouraging nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #26
"particularly violent" people -of any gender- belong in prison, if they've acted on their propensity Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #30
All very true. n/t nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #32
One misses the obvious in the attempt to derail this thread, then. redqueen Apr 2014 #33
Some Focus on Means, Ma'am, Others On Ends The Magistrate Apr 2014 #34
"...a feeling that it might be possible" jtuck004 Apr 2014 #35
Swear to God I thought that was Kevin McDonald, from the Kids in the Hall. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #31
He spoke in Spokane tonight about stress, the topic of his new book. Good speaker, jtuck004 Apr 2014 #36

11 Bravo

(23,926 posts)
1. I hadn't heard of this study or Dr. Sapolsky, but it's damned interesting. Thanks ...
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:23 PM
Apr 2014

for sharing this.

Iterate

(3,020 posts)
10. He's written several books, and even better
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:56 PM
Apr 2014

for right this minute...many lectures, talks, interviews, and university courses recorded and on youtube or fora.tv.

Search and start with any of them because you'll want to see them all anyway and won't regret a minute if it.

johnp3907

(3,731 posts)
6. Yeah, I watched that video and bookmarked some things to read.
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:53 PM
Apr 2014

Interesting Guy.

And this is just about the best book cover ever:
<a href="http://imgur.com/PCHY29h"><img src="" title="Hosted by imgur.com"/></a>

Crunchy Frog

(26,587 posts)
5. I've read about this before.
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:44 PM
Apr 2014

Maybe a necessary component is offing all the aggressive males. (Not advocating, just wondering.)

Nay

(12,051 posts)
7. Well,exactly. For humans to reap the benefits, all those alpha males have
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:45 PM
Apr 2014

to die. How are we to figure out a marker for those guys? Just testosterone level? I remember an old science fiction story that had the same theme, and the same results (nicer people, nicer societies). Of course, it's impossible to do this in humans - talk about a genocide.

Crunchy Frog

(26,587 posts)
8. I'm in a sort of Jonathan Swift "Modest Proposal" type mood this evening.
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:53 PM
Apr 2014

So don't take anything I say too seriously.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
9. Oh, I know. Maybe there's something we can put into the air that would
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:56 PM
Apr 2014

destroy the alpha in alpha males without killing them.....one can only dream.

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)
19. A legal alternative
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 10:51 PM
Apr 2014

is for women not to allow them any voluntary chance to reproduce their genes. Then, they just die off.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
11. i did nto see this. thank you. totally awesome for a number of reasons. i say the same.
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 10:52 AM
Apr 2014

with women and our evolution

so helpless forever cause evolution says so.

freedom, and financial independence thru law and booooooom, we take off on this evolutional path of independence and hey, freedom,. 4 decades? we are no longer stupid, incompetent, incapable, weak, emotional.

amazing huh.

lol

genie cannot go back in the bottle. AND..... thank you for directing me. this is a bookmark. i just learned how to do that.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
18. There are totally some important lessons to take away from that!
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 07:06 PM
Apr 2014

Starting with, don't eat meat out of the garbage can.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
20. I don't know... I think the message that a certain social system or pattern of behavior
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 11:28 PM
Apr 2014

isn't necessarily inevitable, is still an important one. Especially when you have guys (and a few women) going around implying that rape, or violence in general, is simple biology and nothing can be done about it.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
21. I think primates (-other- primates, I mean) engage in an awful lot of behavior that any objective
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 12:06 AM
Apr 2014

observer would consider simply abhorrent and morally reprehensible.

I think anyone who looks at the regular behaviors of apes or other non-human monkeys and suggests we can't do better, is seriously selling the human race short.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
22. Yet there are those who constantly compare human behavior to primate behavior - which of course
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 12:16 AM
Apr 2014

only consists of those behaviors which back up their thesis, so they tend not to mention the rather egalitarian bonobos.

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)
24. Bonobos actually get brought up fairly often
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:02 AM
Apr 2014

It just rarely goes well when they are. Unfortunately for the poor bonobos, who have such beneficial lessons to teach, the method behind their peaceful, sociable communities is one people find objectionable: bonobos like to fuck, everyone everyway and often, hetero and homo, for breeding and for the fun of it.

That's why two months ago, humans were absolutely positively not apes, don't look like apes, don't act like apes, none of our behaviors can be linked to apes, and are especially nothing like bonobos; and today, we would have world peace if we just killed off part of our male population, exactly like the baboons.

That's modern human society for ya. Depressing, isn't it?

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
25. True. I was talking specifically about MRA's using the "primate" argument though.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:06 AM
Apr 2014

And I don't think anyone is suggesting "killing off part of our male population." Just that certain behaviors we may think of as innate, aren't necessarily so.

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)
27. Unfortunately, I have seen people suggest that
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:14 AM
Apr 2014

with the caveat that it was not on DU: forcibly reduce the male population to 10% and maintain it at that level. That's why stuff like this gives me the creeps.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
28. How many people actually take this Mary Daly batshit craziness seriously?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:17 AM
Apr 2014

Obviously at least a few do, though, and that's a few too many.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
26. Mass murder is hardly to any sane person's taste. But perhaps a nonviolent way of discouraging
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:08 AM
Apr 2014

particularly violent males from breeding? Such as free vasectomies?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
30. "particularly violent" people -of any gender- belong in prison, if they've acted on their propensity
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:51 AM
Apr 2014

for particular violence, and as such they probably wouldn't be "breeding" under normal circumstances, anyway.

However, most sane people also find eugenics- even the 'nonviolent' stripe- inherently distasteful for a bunch of obvious reasons, starting with the historical ones.

And isn't the suggestion that violence is merely or mostly physiologically or hormonally driven another similar variant to simplistic evo-psych arguments around behavior?

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
33. One misses the obvious in the attempt to derail this thread, then.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 11:39 AM
Apr 2014

But that's hardly surprising to anyone here.

The program for action is to show, once again, using even more evidence, that comments like "You can't stop that! It's human nature!" are, of course, utter and complete bullshit.

And it is also to show, once again, how the desperate attempts to rationalize gender role nonsense using laughable evo-psych theories are also utter and complete bullshit.

The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
34. Some Focus on Means, Ma'am, Others On Ends
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 05:30 PM
Apr 2014

I have read this account previously, and consider it makes hash of the proposition that baboon behavior is intrinsic, instinctual, something built into the breed. And by extension, it similarly undermines a great deal of tosh about roles and structures in human society being built in, rather than created. Granted, a thing once created and then nurtured long and carefully, can build up quite a head of steam, and come to seem natural and inevitable, and impose itself as such on most all born into its confines. But that is far from actually being natural and self-sustaining. Cultures are artifacts, created things, and culture shapes human behavior far more than anything biology can manage.

Nonetheless, it is instructive how this came to be demonstrated so clearly, namely something which selectively killed off the most domineering, greedy, and aggressive males within a group, and left the rest to get on about their lives. Their 'one-percent', as it were, was removed. Were one to transpose the parable onto working human societies, elimination of the rich, of those empowered to predate on their fellows, to bully them and subjugate them, one is left with the ideal revolution aims for, and a feeling that it might be possible.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
35. "...a feeling that it might be possible"
Thu Apr 24, 2014, 09:23 PM
Apr 2014

Explains the tainted meat appearing on Wall Street sidewalks...

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
36. He spoke in Spokane tonight about stress, the topic of his new book. Good speaker,
Fri Apr 25, 2014, 12:02 AM
Apr 2014

entertaining and connects well with a crowd, and drops enough info that he's worth going to hear. It was paid for by Eastern Wash Univ, and filled a theater of about 1600 seats, plus a few people standing, in our city of a few hundred thousand people.

Sound system was ok, but I can understand him better and prefer listening on youtube. Or in the bathroom of the Fox theater - sound is very, very good in there, and it's not near as crowded as the regular seating.

They did record it, so perhaps it will appear there.

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