I think acupuncture has more basis in reality, fwiw.

Have you?

Personally, I credit the surgery, radiation therapy, and chemo rather than the prayers for her still being alive today, 10 years later.

I got the idea that it does help from http://usa.rigpa.org/

grown ups begging daddy jeebus for stuff. waste o' time.

I am under the impression that prayer has worked in blind trials for recovering from illness..

but I could be wrong..

Thanks for the link..

does not add to the conversation. Especially when you've been rebuffed by actual data ...

I read The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying and thought that the info came from the book.
I have a link to
www.usa.rigpa.org
perhaps some digging there will turn up what I am looking for.

The info. I'm not doing your research for you. But I will say that I usually have the opinion that prayer can't hurt - unless it's keeping folks from seeking actual treatment.

peace and low stress..

Ever.

Sadly for them nothing fails like prayer.

peace and low stress..

seriously.

n/t

the place has started sounding like a confederation of third graders. There is indeed bad science in the world but why must they try so hard to sound like idiots describing what they feel is the bad science?

That's the first thing I thought when I saw the title. I frickin' despise the word and the sentiment around it.

That explains a lot, actually.

I don't think it helped her but it gave us lots of jokes.


"fill it to the rim with brim..."

OK, one joke...but we laughed a lot.

In my defense I used to be kind of an asshole.

Good grief....some folks never give up!

Medicinal leeches are any of several species of leeches, but most commonly Hirudo medicinalis, the European medicinal leech.

a photo of my brother-in-law!

They are a miracle to guard for infections and help with amputations.

don't go to a doctor.....just go to an acupuncturist!

She wasn't talking about it as a primary cancer treatment, but as an adjunct treatment, mostly for the side effects of conventional treatments.

Did you actually read the post?

thus woo...

As stated above....some people believe in the power of prayer....and sometimes that even "works"....I have a cousin who believes that....got the "hands laid on him" and SHAZAAM he was cured of severe Asthma....or so he says.

You'd best write the President at once and advice him of your wisdoms. Of course, he also hears from the actual Medical Doctors that employ acupuncture as part of their practices, so you better use lots of CAPS and emoticons when you write to him so he'll know you are righteous!!!

it is still no more effective than "sham accupuncture"....where the researchers used faked acupuncture....facts are still facts.

have you tried it?

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
This study sought to determine whether sham acupuncture is as efficacious as true acupuncture, as defined by traditional acupuncture theories.

METHODS:
A systematic review was conducted of clinical trials that used sham acupuncture controls with needle insertion at wrong points (points not indicated for the condition) or non-points (locations that are not known acupuncture points). This study used a convenience sample of 229 articles resulting from a PubMed search using the keyword "acupuncture" and limited to "clinical trials" published in English in 2005 or 2006. Studies were categorized by use of wrong points versus non-points and the use of normal insertion and stimulation versus superficial insertion or minimal stimulation.

RESULTS:
Thirty-eight acupuncture trials were identified. Most studies (22/38 = 58%) found no statistically significant difference in outcomes, and most of these (13/22 = 59%) found that sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture, especially when superficial needling was applied to non-points.

CONCLUSIONS:
The findings cast doubt on the validity of traditional acupuncture theories about point locations and indications. Scientific rationales for acupuncture trials are needed to define valid controls, and the theoretical basis for traditional acupuncture practice needs to be re-evaluated.

it is evolving rapidly, and much of it indicates that chemo is not as effective in treating certain cancers as the SCIENCE concluded earlier. SCIENCE is not static. as cancer survivor, i am very grateful for the NEW research that saved me from chemo...which not certainly would have been standard treatment 10 years ago. also, scientifically-sanctioned or not, a cancer diagnosis is not just physically challenging, it is also mentally and emotionally challenging, and SCIENCE doesn't offer much help for those challenges. i am certain surgery, radiation and hormone therapy helped me survive, and just as certain that acupuncture, reiki helped me cope with the stress and fear. i'd encourage anyone dealing with the big C to take advantage of any treatment that helps, even if it just to manage stress. that's a part of the reason why hospitals offer these adjunctive treatments. unless of course they've just succumbed to woo.

Many people ARE cured with chemo....chemo is not woo...chemo is science.

and causes a host of problems. there is no CURE for cancer, which tells me you really don't know you are talking about,

No there is no cure for Cancer....but some people ARE cured of thiers....

Chemo saves lives.....its not woo.

Yes I do know what I am talking about....

why, yes you YOU did, so I have to infer from that: you don't know you are talking about. nice try at revisionism though. woo...does that include the belief that chemo "cures" cancer? perhaps you just miswrote
\

you have a problem with that statement? Surgery to remove a tumor also cures a case of Cancer....sometimes it doesn't....still not woo.

God I hate that word! Made me sound like a third grader just responding to you using your chosen nomenclature.

I believe having less or worse of an effect than placebo is your standard is it not?

I said my cousin BELIEVES he was cured...

and yes...to your second point...and its pseudo-scientific

sorry if I didn't express myself well enough the first time though...

It's my observation as a hospice nurse with a few of my patients who have acupuncture. I know that's not scientific proof. But, it does help some people feel better.

With some of my patients or their families I do relaxation exercises with tuning forks. It's part of my nursing visit so no one pays extra for it. Some people love it and I keep doing it with them. Others try it once and don't like it or feel that it's silly so we don't continue doing it. Also, remember that these alternative therapies are in conjunction with medications. Often times when people relax the meds work better.

Relaxation and anxiety.

Anxiety is the bride of Pain They go everywhere hand in hand. That is not woo or pseudoscience that is good basic medical psychology.

You tell a patient "I will give you your pain med at 1:30", and as that target time approaches many people will start to feel pain relief. Just giving a person a goal line relieves anxiety which helps to promote relaxation. That is damn good medicine and good nursing. I don't care for the CAM artists because they try to promote it has something beyond that and enter the realm of fraud.

I myself have no use for touch therapy, prayer, meditation, guided imagery, massage but will use them on patients when asked since I realize how important they are. they are a part of good nursing. I refuse however, to randomly stick needles in people since this a an incredibly stupid INVASIVE procedure that has no effect other than to relive anxiety and help with relaxation. There are dozens of other techniques that will do this with out the need to break the skin barrier. Acupuncturists must engage in hocus pocus to try and hoodwink people into believing that they are practicing a magic that no one else understands in order to line their pockets with money.

Acupuncturists and Homeopaths are the worst of the charlatans fleecing people in pain and despair.

uses woo too. Offered me acupuncture right on the premises, and they're one of the top clinics in the world.

My twins are seven now.

--yes acupuncture is being used at major hospitals in America routinely.

in some patients, though the mechanism is not clear.

Treating acupuncture, or indeed any single procedure, as a cure-all is quackery however.

the mechanism is likely the same as 'TENS' pain relief (does anyone remember hearing about that? I learned it when studying about birth...) where you put electrodes on your back (for back labor) and turn it up...it creates a buzzing feeling in your back and is supposed to relieve pain in labor. There were studies about its effectiveness.

My doctor used electricity through the acupuncture needles and you would feel a light, regular, "zap, zap, zap" it was seriously a distracting sensation. That's probably how it works - it distracts you and stimulates other nerves in the area taking away the pain sensation. Like adding 'noise' to the nerves so the brain can't 'hear' the pain.

I have this peppermint oil migraine roll on that works like that - when I get a migraine, I rub the stuff on my forehead and temples and neck, and the top of my head. Before too long, the intense cooling sensation blocks out the pain of the migraine. All it is, is adding 'noise' to the area to drown out the pain signals to the brain, IMO.

That said, my doctor tried to induce my labor with acupuncture - didn't work. Tried to help treat my messed up back and hip with acupuncture - didn't work. Total waste of time. Chiropractic, however, worked wonders on my hip (not so much on my upper back). So some things work for some things, and not for others. Just like all chemo doesn't work for all cancers. Just like I can take tylenol and it helps my headache, but my mom doesn't get any relief from tylenol and takes advil. Some treatments are highly individual. Nothing is a cure-all.

One of the big cancer centers here has valet parking. I'm pretty sure that's about as statistically useful as acupuncture (ie it's not,) but it's a cheap perk that keeps patients happy.

Grrrr.

for at least some conditions. It does not fall into the same "woo" category as, say, homeopathy, which involves the successive dilution of a substance that might be toxic with water until it supposedly is able to "cure" ailments - except that the process involves dilution to the point where there is nothing left but water. Some claim the water has "memory." But homeopathy has been repeatedly debunked. It's harmless as long as it doesn't take the place of some treatment that might actually work.

On the other hand, sometimes acupuncture does seem to work. I realize my own experience is only anecdotal and therefore completely unscientific and incapable of proving anything, but: a few years ago I had a sore knee - it had become very painful and I could barely go up and down stairs. I got cortisone shots a few times but they worked only temporarily. Somebody suggested acupuncture and I said, meh, that's not real medicine, it doesn't work, but they said go ahead and try it, it can't do you any harm. Since nothing else was working and my knee was really painful I decided to give it a try, but I was very skeptical. After the first treatment my knee felt better, and I thought, Ha, placebo effect. But I went back got some more treatments and the problem went away and never returned. Maybe it would have gone away on its own without any treatment. Maybe there was a placebo effect. I don't know. But I have at least retreated from my original opinion that acupuncture is pure woo.

No. They're using it to release endorphins, something which does manage pain.

Acupuncture based on qi is woo.

acupuncture was developed in China and it is part of traditional Chinese Medicine. An acupuncturist who is trained in Chinese Medicine (as this article states they are) has learned the elements of qi and their treatment would be based on that. Whatever happens as a result of that treatment is due to the placement of the needles. You do not place them in one place to release endorphins and somewhere else if treating qi.

What you are probably misunderstanding is the principle that the body always seeks to heal and protect itself. Much of our mainstream medicine is based on "silver bullets (pharmaceuticals)" and what are considered as alternatives seek to assist the body to find its balance again so our innate mechanisms can manage the illness, injury or trauma.
Alternative medicine is not for all health conditions but is more helpful than drugs for others. It is a choice.

its the "belief" part that does the healing....

Everything is not known at this point in time and there is no study that proves belief is what causes success with acupuncture. The human body has many systems - blood, lymph, fascia, immune response, etc. Exactly what acupuncture taps into is defined as the energy meridians, or as some have interpreted it - the electrical system. It may turn out to be something else entirely. But it works for some health needs.

At one time it was scientifically proven that most people had falling internal organs. When x-rays were taken of people's abdomens, their internal organs were lower than those in the horizontal cadavers used in schools and for autopsies. To correct this "problem," surgeries were done to sew the organs back into the higher positions. Science proved this was necessary and later proved it was unnecessary.

Also - At one time you could say that belief was the cause of multiple sclerosis because that is how it was diagnosed. It was said to affect artistic types and those of low moral character.

The research scientists I have met are not given to ridicule or garbage can explanations, but rather they are humble seekers. They do not use "science" as blinders and are open to clues from all sources in their search for answers.

Sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture: a systematic review of clinical trials.
Moffet HH.
Author information
Division of Research, Kaiser Permanente, Oakland, CA 94612, USA. Howard.H.Moffet@kp.org
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
This study sought to determine whether sham acupuncture is as efficacious as true acupuncture, as defined by traditional acupuncture theories.

METHODS:
A systematic review was conducted of clinical trials that used sham acupuncture controls with needle insertion at wrong points (points not indicated for the condition) or non-points (locations that are not known acupuncture points). This study used a convenience sample of 229 articles resulting from a PubMed search using the keyword "acupuncture" and limited to "clinical trials" published in English in 2005 or 2006. Studies were categorized by use of wrong points versus non-points and the use of normal insertion and stimulation versus superficial insertion or minimal stimulation.

RESULTS:
Thirty-eight acupuncture trials were identified. Most studies (22/38 = 58%) found no statistically significant difference in outcomes, and most of these (13/22 = 59%) found that sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture, especially when superficial needling was applied to non-points.

CONCLUSIONS:
The findings cast doubt on the validity of traditional acupuncture theories about point locations and indications. Scientific rationales for acupuncture trials are needed to define valid controls, and the theoretical basis for traditional acupuncture practice needs to be re-evaluated.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19250001

That's HOW!

may demonstrate that the placement of needles as described by the teachings of traditional acupuncture is not accurate. It does not prove that the outcomes of acupuncture are based on belief. That is a supposition, not a proven fact.

Results show that "real" acupuncture is no more effective than sham acupuncture....that is called science

borne out by this article. You asserted that belief drove the results and that was the proof I was requesting. These are not studies to determine if belief is what is driving the results. One would have to design a study that looks at that question. You suppose it is belief.

I am not going to argue the efficacy of acupuncture as stated in this article as I don't have the money to access it or the studies it was based upon. It would be interesting to see how the studies were conducted as acupuncture as well as many other therapies involve many aspects that would need to be controlled for. For example, talking with the patient, touching the patient, background music, relaxation techniques, incense etc. Whether these alone or used synergistically could affect results should be studied as well as characteristics of the individuals involved.

Your conclusion of belief is not yet support by science.

--acupuncture is an empirical practice, probably derived from battlefield medicine where soldiers punctured with arrows at various sites noticed pain relief. It is normal for humans to make up stories about why empirical treatments work, and probably even functional as a memory aid. It is no longer necessary to bother with explanations like meridians, any more than we believe a hedge witch who says that willow bark tea relieves headaches because the willow is sacred to St. Sebastian, the patron saint of headaches.

Saying that acupuncture treats headaches because of qi is pseudoscience. Saying that it treats headaches because of the release of endorphins isn't.

Massage for chronic pain cures nothing, vut it really feels good. A few hours off narcotics can't be so bad.

Nothing feels better for longer than a real, therupratic, deep tissue massage. Preferably by a middle aged european woman with a lot of issues. Felt better than paying off the mortgage 18 years early.

What's your point?

Sid

acute pain physicians, head of a department and all that. Works very well when nothing else did. A very useful system of treatment for many things. The Knights Who Say Woo are of limited experience and certainly none of them hold an MD. I'll take my physician's advice over some ranting DU nutter any day of the week.

I don't know if that is old or you just came up with it on the fly but I actually physically laughed my ass of when I read that!!

Thanks for the giggle! (I just hate that word as it sounds so childish)

Though it's not covered by the military's Tricare health insurance:
http://acupuncture-austin.com/military-using-acupuncture-for-pain/


rocktivity

pay for this. Acupuncture is just a placebo, sugar pills are cheaper and don't require sticking needles into patients.

and yes indeed acupuncture is covered by much insurance, including the expanded Medicaid provision of the ACA as implemented in my State. You'd better write to the President and set him right. 'Dear Mr President, I am not a physician nor a doctor of any kind but you must listen to me because I am just smarter than the folks at the Mayo clinic.' I'm sure he will put your advice directly where it belongs.

is about as effective as placebo or faith healing. It should not be paid for by monies better spent on real medicine. I'll bet some real physicians believe in faith healing too. I just hope no one who actually could be helped by medicine is suckered in by this woo.

from children. They also used X-rays to treat swollen tonsils and adenoids. Farther back they bled patients. The acupuncture lobbies did get acupuncture (but only for anesthetic and pain-not where it is an actual treatment for disease) into the bill. This probably got the bill support from the acupuncture (woo) lobby.
BTW Physicians used to be used to advertise the health benefits of cigarettes and Rand Paul is a physician.

that proves what you said. Thank you.

Outrageous claims need to be proven. Purveyors of woo (quacks in this case) should have to show that it works, and since they never can, it should be banned.
The FDA does this for drugs.

I'm sure some children's cancer ward uses clowns to make the patients "feel better."

That doesn't mean acupuncture "works" in the sense of "working."

It does "work"... as do clowns.

It does not, however, work in the sense of "putting needle at point X has effect Y."

In terms of higher self-reported pain reduction or sense of well being all sorts of things "work."

An interesting TV shows probably "works." It probably distracts from pain.

It seems likely to me that people request fewer pain meds during a show they're really interested in.

But if one is making a scientific claim like claiming "putting needle at point X has effect Y"... it doesn't.

The side effects of chemo and radiation can be brutal. I took pain meds mostly so I could just sleep and get through it. If I had the opportunity to try acupuncture (from someone trusted to be sterile) I would have. I was already having a lot of chemicals put in my body and you have to wonder about the combination of things you are putting in your body after awhile.

The placebo effect is just that an effect, if it brings relief from symptoms without harm. Does it really matter if it helps suffering?

A lot of people prayed for me. I have no idea if that helped or not, but there was comfort in knowing that so many people cared.

and it lasted longer.

OF A COMPREHENSIVE treatment plan...I AM STILL HERE DESPITE THE INITIAL PROGNOSIS AT MY DIAGNOSIS. I was Dx with stage 4 SQUAMOUS CELL CERVICAL CANCER and I KNOW personally that this works. IT IS NOT WOO and although, the way it works isn't totally understood, IT IS NOT WOO!!! I was treated at a renowned CANCER treatment center and when I came back into California, I found that nearly ALL the specialty Cancer treatment centers UTILISE ACUPUNCTURE as part of a comprehensive treatment program..

I said that cancer hospitals treat pain with woo only IF you consider acupuncture to be woo -- which I don't.

The hospitals don't consider acupuncture to be woo, the NIH doesn't consider it to be woo, and neither do I. It's true that the precise mechanism of action is unknown, but that's the case for some standard drug treatments, too.

you were against it. So many, who think they know everything DO laugh at it and it WORKS, when in the hands of people who are THOROUGHLY trained.
Sorry.

While it's possible the acupuncture works for pain, due to some unknown effect, or a placebo effect, I doubt that even those who put together your comprehensive treatment plan would claim it helped to put your cancer into remission.

If it worked for your pain, that's great, and I am not being dismissive in any way or trying to diminish your personal experience. But someone saying it worked for them is not in any way evidence that it is a more effective pain treatment than placebo. I could easily counter your story with one of my own. My wife, who went for acupuncture for severe back pain in her third pregnancy, got no relief from the pain at all. It's just one anecdote vs another. I can't draw general conclusions from my wife's experience any more than I can from yours. It is only through large comparative studies that any claim for general effectiveness can be made.

Insurance covers many things that are known to be ineffective. Some health insurance plans still cover Christian Science practitioners (thankfully far fewer than in the past), otherwise known as faith healing. I can find people who claim that this religious treatment was effective too - but while I keep an open mind about acupuncture, faith healing is nonsense, despite the individual anecdotes.

claimed to be an acupuncturist DOES NOT MEANT THAT THEY KNEW WHAT THE FUCK they were doing. I trust very few acupuncturists and ONLY the ones who have EXTENSIVE training in ASIA, NOT the US....

There are countless individuals who claim to have gotten no relief through acupuncture, and countless individuals who claim they have gotten help. But they are all just individual anecdotes and there is no way to use any of them as generalized evidence one way or the other. Only well-controlled acupuncture/sham comparative studies can do that. And, for me, the jury is still out on whether acupuncture offers anything but a placebo effect. I wish that more good studies could be funded, as there is enough intriguing data to warrant them.

Why should you just assume we didn't fully research the practitioner we found? She was in fact trained in Asia, and had been practicing for decades. The conventional, Western, OB/GYN practice my wife went to recommended her, as they had success stories from their patients, and we went into the experience with great optimism and hope (although if it is really effective, the patient's mindset shouldn't make a difference), as my wife was really suffering and didn't want to use heavy-duty painkillers while pregnant.

Why should you take offense if someone doesn't take your single positive experience as proof of the efficacy of acupuncture? No offense was intended. I made it very clear that I keep an open mind about acupuncture, despite our experience, because any one experience, positive or negative, doesn't prove much of anything.

and "OF COURSE, I BELIEVE THAT YOU RESEARCHED"the "Acupuncturist"you took your wife to to make sure they had the appropriate training, experience & ...MAKES PERFECT SENSE. Considering that I didn't ask you for your input, I take REAL offence on your psuedo-scientific and 'REASONED" response. I KNOW what I went through and considering that I was UNCONSCIOUS during the first part of my Acupuncture treatment during my chemotherapy due to a unforeseen complication and it WORKED, it's INSULTING that you put your 2cents into a fight you had no dog in but of course, you know EVERYTHING there is to know the applications of Acupuncture... TRUST ME,I am NOT the one you want to get into a "discussion" about what alternative treatments are effective and which aren't.

They must be crazy there.

at all. I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE and KNOW AT LEAST 20 others who underwent this and IT WORKS....

The simple truth is that in the majority of studies acupuncture is no more effective than placebo medication at pain control.

Some studies seem to indicate that acupuncture might stimulate the nerves to block signaling but others seem to show that such effects are caused by a hypnotic response. In any event if the hospital is reduced to using acupuncture to control pain - you are in the same position as Kate Middleton - royally f***ked

Doesn't mean it works.

However, guided meditation did and does. Mind you, I have neurological pain and that may make a difference.

And yes, the guided meditation was a program through the local hospital, under the auspices of a woman named Jackie Gardiner-Nix.

Obvious reason: Woo.

Just because a respected institution offers some treatment, doesn't mean it's valid.

Andrew Wakefield used to be a respected British doctor.

They either get relief or they don't.

I keep an open mind about any treatment that gives my animals relief, just like my veterinarians who prescribe treatments including acupuncture.

talking about, or.... figured as much. When all they've got is -no - the doctors are wrong. no, the hospitals are wrong, no the studies are wrong - WE are the only ones you can trust -anonymous posters on the internet with an agenda. uh-huh. I wonder who they think they're fooling. Not me, or you.

confirmed that it's effective in pain relief.

Your opinion doesn't mean it's not.

As in, the patients will always know whether they got stuck or not.

The placebo response is poorly understood in general, but taking advantage of its observable benefits to patients (if that's what it is) is hardly woo.

if you designed the study so that everyone in the study 'got stuck' but some got stuck in the 'right' places, and some got stuck in random non-acupuncture medicine spots. Of course, that would make it difficult to discern if the benefits were from acupuncture medicine or from the sensation of being stuck with needles. It would be interesting to see if just being stuck with needles is all people need.

that it helped to relieve pain.

To use to feel their superiority compmex and bash those who they think are lesser than them...

i used acupuncture, reiki in addition to surgery and radiation. i could give two fucks about the science. anything that helped me deal with the STRESS or the diagnosis, and the side effects of the treatments...i tried it. and those treatements helped me. help is help...whether it is a placebo effect or something else.

... and the actual research. Since I believe in caring for the "entire" person, I do not object to meeting the spiritual needs of patients while providing optimal science based medical care.


http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/PIIS0025619613005132/related?article_id=S0025-6196%2813%2900513-2

It is well known that acupuncture has pain-relieving effects, but the contribution of specific and especially nonspecific factors to acupuncture analgesia is less clear. One hundred one patients who developed pain of 3 on a visual analog scale (VAS, 0 to 10) after third molar surgery were randomized to receive active acupuncture, placebo acupuncture, or no treatment for 30min with acupuncture needles with potential for double-blinding. Patients’ perception of the treatment (active or placebo) and expected pain levels (VAS) were assessed before and halfway through the treatment. Looking at actual treatment allocation, there was no specific effect of active acupuncture (P=.240), but there was a large and significant nonspecific effect of placebo acupuncture (P<.001), which increased over time. Interestingly, however, looking at perceived treatment allocation, there was a significant effect of acupuncture (P<.001), indicating that patients who believed they received active acupuncture had significantly lower pain levels than those who believed they received placebo acupuncture. Expected pain levels accounted for significant and progressively larger amounts of the variance in pain ratings after both active and placebo acupuncture (up to 69.8%). This is the first study to show that under optimized blinding conditions, nonspecific factors such as patients’ perception of and expectations toward treatment are central to the efficacy of acupuncture analgesia and that these factors may contribute to self-reinforcing effects in acupuncture treatment. To obtain an effect of acupuncture in clinical practice, it may therefore be important to incorporate and optimize these factors.

My parents believed in herbal remedies, and when I got an ear infection, they were determined to treat it with the herbs prescribed by their witch doctors. For almost a month I had increasing pain and pressure in my ear, with the final week being literally the worst pain I've ever experienced in my life. Every once in awhile I'd just be hit with this blinding pain that left me literally collapsed on the floor and gasping for air.

Anyway, my mom finally took me to see an actual doctor, who told her I was days, or minutes away from going deaf in that ear. He gave me antibiotics and kept me there until the swelling started going down (about two hours).

Since then I've been a huge fan of science and western medicine, and have no patience at all for woo and people who waste others' precious time with it. Sick people don't have time or resources to waste, and if you're not a doctor, you really should just stay out of the way.

There is implied second part to the OP's argument that acupuncture is both 'woo' and sometimes effective. That is that woo has a place in medicine.

I'd say that acupuncture isn't really woo, since it appears to do *something*, even if we don't understand exactly why. And woo has no place in medicine.

he can't know if you were days or minutes from going deaf from an ear infection - how ridiculous. I have had a ruptured ear drum and I have felt that pain except mine came on ridiculously suddenly, no time to go to the doctor until the next day when my ear drum had already ruptured. I'm not deaf, although it did feel like I was hearing underwater for a month or so. IS there a risk of deafness? There is a risk of hearing loss with repeated infections, or if the infection damages the auditory nerve, but a doctor can't know that until the infection is gone and some time has passed, because most regain their hearing.

Besides the swelling wouldn't go down from only 2 hours on antibiotics. He must've given you something else. Antibiotics take much longer than that to work. Unless it was iv antibiotics.

Anyway, it wasn't 'woo' that almost 'made you deaf', it was your parents who ignored your pain for a month, wtf? Even my friends who are VERY into 'natural medicine' would never wait that long to see a real doctor. Most people understand the limitations of alternative treatments.