The grocery store, after a late it hookup, context is missing...

Risk of assault stalks the vulnerable in daylight or darkness, at home or at work.

For minorities its risk of assault from the police.

Some context as to why someone needs buddy to go to the car might be helpful. Does the OP live in a high crime neighborhood. Are they somehow more vulnerable than the rest of us? Maybe they should get some mace?

Are you assuming that the OP referred only to women? If so why the obsession?

The OP made no reference to gender but you seem to want to imply it does. Why?

Could it be that you think that men and women are equally oppressed by modern culture, I believe you have said that several times and, of course, you are wrong.

I'm not the only person in this thread asking for context.

Perhaps the OP could grace us with some clues...

who seem to want to serve the ends of the reactionary Mens Rights Movement, does not make your personal silliness any more palatable.

Why do you need context when, as has been pointed out by others, none is needed. If you cannot see that perhaps your confusion comes from a lack of empathy on your part and not because you might want to further a false and deceptive narrative.

KK?

Who needs a walk to the car? Are you tripping on molly or is this at the grocery store?

Basically I'm clueless as to what the OP is on about. Maybe there is some secret "walk to the car" code I'm missing but without a little context the op is a big wooosh.

I never ask anyone to do that. People have varying degrees of fear on this subject, too.

that a woman would ask a man to walk her to her car so that she wasn't accosted by riff-raff.

I guess you are part of the riff-raff, because that is the only reason why I can see that you would take offense at a woman asking someone to escort her to her car when the area is dodgy.

Where I live people take public transportation, cabs, uber, lyft, etc.

We're surrounded by homeless and women know how to deal with them. The city is very safe and we don't have to deal with "riff raff" whatever that is.

If your living in fear consider moving. Life is short.

Violent crime is at historical lows in America.

Robert Heinlein wrote of an incident that happened in his town when he was a boy, and which influenced his view on how men aught to behave. As I recall, a man and woman were crossing a train track ahead of a train and the woman's leg somehow became stuck in such a way that they were unable to free her. A strange man, seeing this, also rushed onto the tracks to help, but despite this they were unable to rescue her before the train arrived, killing all of them. Killing all three of them. Including the third man, the real hero of the story, who did not know either of the two he was trying to save. He could have jumped clear, no one would have blamed him, but he remained and died an unknown hero.

But that was then.

Today, whether we are talking about rescuing strangers from train tracks or walking women to their cars, both sound like chivalry to me, something men are now assured is unwelcome at best. I am not trying to be a meanie, but it is well past the point where any rational standards for men are long lost and the starting premise for any story has become 'Look at what a misogynist jerk THIS guy is.' Had the incident Heinlein recounted occurred today, there is a cadre who would have pounced on our hero and proclaimed hom a villain. And here women have it little better, as they have a legion of sisters insisting that they are weak for asking or accepting, and that any man who offers or honors such a request is a sexist at least.

But since their version of proper behavior is as incoherent as the demands of a hormonal teen, for the sake of my own moral code I have chosen to ignore them. I might not be good for much else, but if you want someone who will escort you to your car while thinking 'Yep, that's my job' you need a guy like me around. There are lots of us.

I saw a new post come up talking about Casablanca and I fully expected it to be filled with all kinds of back and forth about why it's so wrong the way people acted rather than talking about the beauty of the song.

Did the "why it's so wrong" posts ever materialize? Or did your expectations turn out to be unfounded?

A 'cadre' calling someone a 'villain' or 'misogynist jerk' for the Heinlien story, for trying to free the foot of someone caught in front of an oncoming train? Seriously?

I don't think you're picking up what the problem is and why you're not receiving the reaction you apparently expect. I would point to the rank condescension that flows out of your post like a firehose. "Incoherent as the demands of a hormonal teen"? You understand we can hear you, right?

Now, I don't seem to have the problem you do on this. Then again, when I walk someone to their car or see them out, it's because they welcome my company. On the occasions where I detect that I've overstayed my welcome and am imposing on them, I wrap it up quick and get the hell out of Dodge.

In this day and age 'chivalry' (in the best sense) is simple respect and courtesy. "It's my job" whether your company is welcome or not isn't respect and courtesy, it's just creepy. If you're creeping someone out, it's not chivalry. And 'chivalry' does not involve patting yourself on the back.

Are you a lumberjack? Because if you're not, you really need to cut down on the axe grinding.

If only these "I'm a real man" types could ever fathom that idea.

There is a clear difference between helping someone, whether it be holding the door for them or saving their life, and treating women like they're frail and helpless. I can't think of anyone who would call the dead helper a "villain."

She was a murderous cur and everyone knew it.

Last edited Mon Apr 21, 2014, 09:55 AM - Edit history (2)

Your opinion of what women think and want is just plain wrong. I'm not sure why you believe what you believe, but you are incorrect in those beliefs.

ETA: Corrected my correction. I did reply to the right post.

I suspect women in general know exactly what they desire, and are more than capable of expressing this as want or need dictates. Nor did I presume to tell women what those wants or needs aught to be. Rather, I was commenting about those who feel no such reservations and who, armed with righteous outrage, stand ready to pounce on any man or woman who fails to conform to or adopt their angry world view.

Are we to pretend that these radicals do not exist, and that a woman who wanted to ask for an escort in an unsafe situation might not hesitate thanks to their teaching? If so, sorry, but I am uninterested in that game either. The OP was lamenting the death or decline of a simple courtesy founded on chivalry. Do you suppose that men threw that chapter of the code away on their own, or was it abandoned with all the rest when men were loudly informed by that same fringe that such courtesy was both unwanted and insulting?

In any case, you responded to what you thought I said, rather than what I actually wrote. I suspect you are not alone in this. Someone even alerted on my rather mild post (which doesn't happen to me very often). Fortunately, six members of the jury disagreed with the alert.

And with that I have to get back on the road. Hopefully I will be back later -- something that is only possible thanks to the men and women of DU, my extended family, who helped my family last month when we needed it most. My gratitude to them will never be exhausted.

You seem very confused. The people who responded to you understood you were completely off base with your imagining what a feminist response to someone trying to save a life must be.
That was some twisted and very hostile thinking. Embarrassed for you. Embarrassed for DU that this crap stands.

Thank God those chivalrous dudes are here to protect us form the whatever wave of feminists boogey women out to rob us of our precious bodily fluids.

perhaps the greatest death in the histor yof mankind.

No one would have pounced on our hero. The story would simply be better if it wasn't based on gender. So it was a man whose leg got stuck, what should have happened? Our hero would have done nothing but watch? Our hero could not possibly be a woman, even if the person with the leg stuck was a man?

And count yourself lucky that Heinlein didn't pack the story with an unsubtle Libertarian sermon.

excuse me, "girls, right honey? thanks darlin', now fetch me some coffee, you know how I like it while you solve that mystery with that fine brain in that fine body and I'll protect you."

Sexist or what? I loved his books, grew up reading them and was annoyed at the time and now? I laugh.

Confusing saving a life and opening a door when it's not needed? Bullshit.
There's a lot of hostility towards women and wrong headed ideas in your post, maybe you need to examine that someplace else.

and only lose a foot?

I would think once the train was within a certain distance, those trying to help her would work in that direction too.

That is simply one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

While I don't always live up to that standard (sometimes I'm depressed or in "mean spirit&quot I do try. Brings to mind the tale of the guy opening the door for the woman and getting chastised by her "you don't have to open the door for me because I'm a lady" and his response of "I opened it because I'm a gentleman". Many a time I've held the door for a man. If I get there first I'll generally hold it for anyone behind me.

Point being, you do the right thing for others sure, but in as much for yourself.

People who are decent human beings will always be decent. Those who are not come up with excuses. Women help people in need as well. It's a function of caring about your fellow human beings. Most people would seek to help the other person--male or female-- as best they could, but would save themselves when it became apparent they could not free the person trapped. Then some would walk by and do nothing because that is who they are. Blaming feminists is nothing but a self-serving justification.

Just wondering, what version of chivalry says a good way to meet women is by offering them $20 for a BJ? Was that how chivalrous men behaved before feminists ruined America?

That old joke about the guy who picks up the little old lady - carries her across a busy street - gently deposits her safe on the other side only to be bonked with her cane because she never wanted to cross in the first place. Those men are always stunned and confused while getting bonked. I never laugh at that joke. I feel too sorry for the poor clueless guy.

I'm picturing Benny Hill getting whacked with an umbrella.

Only a couple of days ago--a sunny, day of about 50 degrees-- I took a cab to the hospital. I have a torn rotator cuff. The cab that pulled up had one of those heavy sliding doors for the back seat and the driver's stuff all over the front seat, passenger side.

I struggled to open the door to the back seat using mostly one arm, and succeeded, causing only minor pain to the torn cuff. However, I could not even imagine closing it without shrieking. Since i was by then inside the vehicle and did not need to shout, I politely asked the driver if he could please close the door. He complied.

When he got back into the cab, I thanked him. I also explained that I was in pain with the shoulder of my dominant arm and would have been unable to manage the door myself.

He replied, "No problem." However, when we got to the hospital, he pulled up alongside the curb and remained seated in the cab, showing no signs of getting out to open the door again. Also, he pulled over far enough from the entrance to the hospital that hospital staff did not notice us for some time. Luckily, one of the hospital "Ambassadors" spotted us and opened the door, which would not have happened had the main entrance been busy at that moment.

Because I already had the money in my hand, I gave the driver a generous tip anyway. I apologize to the entire cab population for that.

Time was, not only a chauffeur to the rich, but anyone paid to drive, would routinely open the door for all passengers entering or exiting the vehicle, no matter what. I was born too late for that, but I would hope for a place between complete servility and utter callousness.

Anyway, rant over. Point is, all kinds of courtesies have disappeared.

I mean, if he parked in such a way that you were sitting there with cash in hand for "for some time," you'd have had plenty of time to ask. Also, since pushing a door open is different from pulling a door shut, maybe he didn't realize that it was still difficult for you.

On the other hand, cabbies routinely load luggage into the trunk, so why not? Alternatively, you'd have been entirely justified to ask for assistance if none was forthcoming.


But in terms of basic customer service, IMO he definitely should have offered to open the door for you.

told him that I could not manage it because the shoulder of my strong arm was injured and in pain. I think that was more than enough of a hint that opening the door, or at least asking if I was up to doing it myself, would have been appreciated.

BTW, three ways to go on the door. Sliding it open from the outside, as I did originally, or closing it from the inside or opening from the inside. Sliding it open from the outside, when I could stand on two feet and use two arms, for whatever my non-dominant arm was worth, was obviously the easiest, and, as the cabbie knew, was painful for me that day anyway. Surely, the owner of the vehicle has a clue about such things?

Sliding it open with my right arm to exit the cab on the right side, where there was a sidewalk, instead of traffic, would have been excruciating. I would have considered it only if the cab were on fire and the driver unconscious.

Further, I sat there initially because, silly me, I assumed the driver would be getting out of the cab to open the door for me as soon as he thought he could safely do so. Should I add that the hospital is less than five minutes from home. (Hence the generous tip, almost equal to the fare. I know a short ride is a pain in the ass for a cabbie--and I try to be courteous to them.)

The topic of the thread and my post were was courtesy, not absolute dire necessity. After all, if the cab were on fire and the driver unconscious, I guess could have opened the door again.

Was your point that not even asking if I needed or wanted help, given what I had said on entering the cab, was the courteous way for the driver to go, unless I asked for help for the second time in five minutes?

I understand that you asked for help closing the door and that you explained your difficulty.
Seems like basic customer service, with a number of ways to approach it:

"Are you ok getting out?"
"Can I give you a hand?"
"Can I get the door for you?"
"Hang on, I'll open it for you."
etc.

Not a word about my feeling comfortable asking or plucking up my courage. Just just whether I asked him for help again, given that I had sat there for a while, as you repeated. And a reminder to me that opening the door was not as hard as closing it, your implication seeming to me to be an excuse for why the cabbie might not have automatically at least asked me if I needed help opening the door.

Yes, you eventually said that there was actually no reason he should have not have opened the door, but the first part of your post sure seemed like trying to blame me for not having done enough. However, I take you at your word that my feeling comfortable in speaking up again was all that was on your mind.

Re-reading it now, I see why you read it that way.

Bottom line: he should have offered.

or reminded him. Instead you assume the worst of him, so you can call yourself a victim of discourtesy. He's a cab driver. His focus is not on your personal problems. You could have reminded him.

was going to open the door as soon as he reasonably could, which the post of mine to which you replied (my Reply 21) clearly stated, as follows.

Further, I sat there initially because, silly me, I assumed the driver would be getting out of the cab to open the door for me as soon as he thought he could safely do so. Should I add that the hospital is less than five minutes from home. (Hence the generous tip, almost equal to the fare. I know a short ride is a pain in the ass for a cabbie--and I try to be courteous to them.)

"utter callousness"

Your lucky if the cabbie speaks your language..

This thread is a trip to the good ole days. Think mayberry, full employment and free college.

Cause where I live cabbies are lucky to get you to your destination, much less open doors.

BTW, I live in the city of Boston, to which I moved after living in Manhattan--and I don't drive. So, I am very familiar with what one may reasonably expect of a cab driver.

a cabbie. LOL if they even show up when you call.

Fourth reply of yours on this thread that I have seen so far that says simple courtesy no longer exists, if ever it did; and one that implies that all cabbies should speak English.

I did find manhattan cabs cheap and easy to find in comparison to sf.

Your "simple courtesy" is someone else's unpaid work.

And have you never heard of Ted Bundy?

I live rural but the towns of Scottsbluff and Rapid City I go to shop.
Men are very polite here and holding a door open is common.
In Custer (SD) yesterday, we went for breakfast and a man held the door open for me.
It's still around in my area.
Yesterday I was in Lowes putting a bag of potting soil and an employee saw me. He came over, ask if I wanted another bag. Said they are always there to help and just ask if I wanted anything.

No longer? It never really was a courtesy. Not something that has recently changed.

a woman asking someone to walk them to their car... out in a dark parking lot.

not a lot in the post.

Has been happening for a long time and for good reason. If anything, I would say the dark parking lot scenario and walking women to their cars was more common decades ago depending on the business. Many business have been working to improve safety on their lots by use of better placed and brighter lighting in parking lots, the use of cameras, and the use of signage. Still many lots are extremely unsafe for people coming to and leaving work. As I said, I did assume the parking lot scenario from the post.

Class ended about 10:30 PM and the parking lot was a distance away. It was a very dark and wooded campus. The young women in the class were afraid to walk alone to their cars, and didn't want to ask the male students to walk with them. As the the oldest woman (40s) in the class, I suggesed that we all form a group and walk together. There were around ten of us. Safety in numbers.

That was it when I was in college. Never walked campus at night by myself.

'Splain!

I asked it upthread and got a bunch of duhs.

Do you need your groceries taken to the car. Was this after a date? Some context is needed although apparently from some of the responses to me, we're missing something rather than the other way around.

Who walks who where, what and why?

I work at a large hospital. Parking isn't optimum. So security provides rides and shuttles to the two block away parking p area. Or will walk you to the closer underground parking. Nurses often walk in groups of at least two or three. Or more. Many are fearful of the dark and the night and the predators, as well they should.

Most, but not all are female.

Thank you!

Good times.

On most college campuses, there's a volunteer escort service available that people can call if they don't want to walk somewhere alone. Many businesses offer escort services, as well.

I think you're way off base with this one.

In most places it's a paid job.

it is not unheard of and it still happens today.

Sounds to me like a rationalization.

working late saying, wait up, i will walk you out.

a security guard at the mall saying he will sit in his spot and wait until i get to my car. at a friends apartment that says, hey... let me walk you to the parking lot.

any number of occassions.

Because he kept dropping things on the way to his car. Then he'd stuff them in and bludgeon them and drive off.

So, point being - can we always trust a stranger offering or asking for help in parking lots? Nope.

he is the very man that the paid employees, friends and bosses are considering when they suggesting walking me to the car. and most men get that for some it means. will sit right here in the light so you feel secure i am not a bundy and i can make sure you made it to the car and i do not need to call 911.

do we really have to be so very explicit or we are consider dumb asses and given the obvious.

and another thing. because i have men that make these suggestions thru out my life does not mean i felt the need for their protection, asked for it, or even accepted it. it was offered. vast majority of times i was totally comfortable without a person being around and said a simply. thank you. that is nice. i am fine.

and a few times i said, thanks. i appreciate it.

Whether you want to ask for, or decline help from someone. I've turned down help I could have used from a few people because you get the creepy shark vibe. It's not as simple as some make it out to be.
And anyone who feels like "chivalry" is some sort of huge deal that they "must perform" and I should be grateful for- they can go fuck themselves. I'm not here to bolster their ego. I need help and I ask someone normal (not them) or I handle it myself.

That much is obvious. Chris claims women are endangered by not accepting his chivalry. It's fucking nuts.

Sorry I assumed you didn't get the Bundy reference. Due to having an LEO brother, I read too much true crime on visits back home. Bundy was an interesting case, no one could believe a "good looking guy" with GFs and everything would be hating and hurting women and little girls so very deeply.

because our neighborhood has been plagued with rapes of women under 30 for years. It's not that I think I can overpower the rapist, but that I think he would be less likely to approach two women than one. These are women I never met. And, sure, I guess I risk their leading me into some alley where they rob me, but I wasn't thinking that way at the time. I hope I would have been cautious enough to avoid that.

Concern for others is not a paid job and courtesy is not dead, regardless of some of the replies to the contrary on this thread.

DNA forensics is said to be largely responsible for the decrease.

Women today at least in bay area, ca are very independent and tend to take care of themselves.

though the guy you ask to walk you to your car is probably a greater threat than a stranger jumping out of the bushes.

This thread is full of nostalgia..

You know you used to be able to attend college for free in california. What ever happened...

BTW, my neighborhood has been plagued with an unusual number of rapes, to the extent that Boston police, who are used to less frequent rapes, first gave out free whistles and asked neighborhood merchants to dispense them as well, then started giving free self defense classes.

Fuck anyone who implies otherwise. See also Reply 59.

Young women in Boston and Manhattan are independent, too. Doesn't stop them from getting raped in my neighborhood though. See also Reply 61.

What the hell is your point, not only in Reply 52 but in most of your replies on this thread?

Sounds as though your whole issue on this thread is that neither you nor anyone else has any reason to be courteous and no one should expect courtesy, even as to rape and a physically injured person.

I'm done replying to that bs.

today walking someone to the car is not normal, nor is stranger rape common. As someone else mentioned a woman is actually statistically more likely to get date-raped by a man walking her to a car late at night then by a stranger.

A man is just as well going to get robbed as a woman. I am sorry if you don't get todays society.

I don't actually expect my cabbies to speak english not sure where you got that from, I said your lucky to get one who does.

Facts

Rape by a stranger is relatively rare.
Rape by someone you know is more common.

Todays women are entirely capable of taking care of themselves without someone else, if they need a buddy they'll get one. They will also take self defense classes, carry mace or a gun if they live in shitty areas where they might get robbed.

Women on college campuses and large businesses generally have the ability to get a professional security escort.

The notion that a woman needs a man if thats what this thread is about, disappeared sometime in the late 70's 80's along with disco and bell bottoms.

it's "you're missing the point," contraction of "you are" not "your missing the point," possessive of you.

I don't usually correct posters on things like that, but since you are such a stickler about cabbies' speaking English (also possessive, as the subject of the gerund should be), cluing you in seemed appropriate.

My example of college escort services is just one example. And I've been asked by a woman to walk with her to her car many times, and have offered my services on many occasions where it seemed like a good idea.

Its a not a random thing is it? I'm assuming you call a number and get someone who's vetted, trained and assigned to the duty.

It's not a random hey dude walk me to the car sort of thing or is it?

Basic liability would require some professionalism in place, whether volunteer or not, its organized and or paid.

and most of them have such a service. There's minimal training. It's just some decent guys who volunteer to walk people safely to where they're going at night. There's one such service at the University of Minnesota here in Minneapolis. The U of M is located in the heart of the city, with a sketchy neighborhood immediately adjacent. The escort service will walk with men or women on and off campus. Strength in numbers is the idea.

I guess you haven't heard of these college escort volunteers before.

Everyone is safer walking with other people.

to do with those programs.

You just repeating what I said.

Service, run by the university. Paid coordinator, probably run out of the public safety department. Staffed with volunteers. The volunteer they send have been checked out.

They had this 20 years ago and there is nothing ad hock about it.

Sundays are a school night LOL-


Where did the OP go? Sleepy time?

Now I will remember the names of a few who outed themselves on this thread as real jerks. I am sure other posters already saw them for what they were. Now, I do as well.

"politically correct" way to approach his wife about the fact that he was the perfect husband whilst she was the world's worst wife, at least according to his description of his behavior and hers. Only this OP is a lot shorter.

Still, as I posted to snooper2, I learned something about a few of the posters on this thread and I am always happy to learn. So this thread was not a total waste. Even the allegedly perfect husband thread had a lot of good tips and was not a total waster.

and ya... curious why so little was put in OP. not giving us an opportunity to know what the particular issue is.

Doubt it, but that's what prank threads often prove here.

as the OP was being posted, I was trotting along a mile-long, one-streetlight stretch of road in the dark. I pulled out my phone to change playlists when I reached the intersection at the end and happened to note the time: 1:58 am.

His car. He got in and followed me back to make sure I got inside okay. Then drove back to his own building- which had lights.
We had seen the shadows and laser signals go back and forth between two groups of teens. Totally waiting to jump drunk people at 2 am in almost complete darkness. And that was between him and his home. So I devised a plan to help him- and me - both get home. And it worked.

I have seen no decline in offers from people for courtesy escorts. On the other hand, statistics show a significant decline in the need for such escorts. Violent crimes are way down. Safety technology has improved. It seems to me that we are better off and I find that very not-sad.

The only time I'm asking a guy to "walk me to my car" is after a date to make out. The walk to the parking lot at school from the business building is well lit, but I could ask a friend or they have security for escorts on campus.

I'm not really sure why this is a simple courtesy.

Why else would I need an escort to my car? I can carry my own groceries.

Particularly if there is a suspected hoodlum around.

Case in point, I escorted a mother and her two daughters to their car from the café I was in recently, when they noticed someone having a gun on their person. I know I would not be able to accomplish much, other than throwing my musical instrument at their general direction if such is the case... but it made them feel better, so I would.

Either way, it is a courtesy inculcated to me by my grandmother. I also came from a different country initially so mannerisms are a bit different.

There is also the thought of safety in numbers.

If someone ask you to do something, it can not be viewed in the way you describe. The problem is when you assume a woman needs to be protected or helped when there is no indication she needs said help. For extra points you don't do it because shes a woman you do it because she is a human being and would help men in the same situation. Sure there are plenty of women out there that bought into this whole " I am a helpless flower and I need a man to protect me" but as a male I find those women pathetic and I don't include someone asking me to walk them to their car as pathetic.

Things I learned on DU.

Inquiring minds want to know.