And DUrec it.

Good one, sea.

Well done sea~

...and a rec, too.

Or before, evidently. Glad it got kicked.

to that thread. and of course. had to throw in my .02. what is totally surprising and amazing is the number of people that agreed with maher. hetro, white, man. hmmmmm. clue in dudes? so in the face obvious, and doesnt phase them

And I won't be silent about it either.

Currently in school to get my MSW. We have conversations like this frequently. It's really starting to frustrate me how many people who look like me are so unable or unwilling to just try to see things from another perspective.

garbage, and call bullshit.

i know this. and i am glad that you spoke out exactly as you did. there are white hetro men on that thread (i believe i saw you) that absolutely call the bullshit.

Just seems loads hypocritical to me, but what do I know, I still need people to tell me what to think and say...

see. i think it is pretty damn relevant that only white hetro men are applauding maher saying he is oh so bothered with others calling out his offensive slurs.

you get that right? you get how it is relelvant that maher... white hetro male is pissed that he cannot call women the b word, or blacks what? the n word? and gays what the f? word.

and it is only white hetro men that say... ya maher, why cant we

you really do not see the relevance to that?

How do you know that?

A female co-worker today told me to "man up." Now what does that make her? Or do you need to know her race first?

Don't mean to take you to task here, seabeyond, but it really gets me when people promote that no one should say anything off of a long and growing list because somebody might be offended. So free-speech, imho, is under attack from PC warriors who want to tell everyone what they may and may not think and say. And then those same people feel perfectly fine vilifying a particular race (White) or gender (male) or especially the dreaded "White male," as if their own, "don't be prejudiced, don't be racist, don't be sexist, don't be ageist," motto doesn't apply when talking about White males or even worse, "old white men." It just drips hypocrisy, and that gets me going. You want to tell me what to say and not to say, then malign a group of people based on gender, race (and sometimes age)? You know?

It impresses me as some group of self-proclaimed thought/speech police issuing decrees from a glass tower.

There's a reason you didn't answer me about the female co-worker who told me to "man up." You don't have to answer, but the fact that you didn't says something.

and other oppressed group slurs.

we truly get why the white hetero man is miffed. does it not ring any bells for you, at all, when it is only white hetero men wanting to use racist, sexist, homophobic slurs?

and.... you talk about people stopping your free speech. i can not stop you. i can call it out every time. i can say what it is. i can speak out how i think it is amazing that only white hetero men are the ones cheering maher.

YOU are the one, and maher is the one, and the other white men in that thread cheering maher are the ones that are telling us we are not allowed our free speech calling you and others out wanting to use slurs on groups.

so. like you or others will use offensive language, with the sole purpose to offend. we that are offended will tell you... you offend.

you and others are applauding the right to offend. and demanding not being told, you offend

what sense does that make

and yes... a woman used the term man up.

you get that right? a woman, used the term man up. man up. to be a man. a good thing. man up. be a man. cause all things that are man, is good.

pussy???? bad... bad bad..... woman, bad....

see the difference?

yes. it is wrong the woman used man up. work for you? it is bad because she is reinforcing that being man good, being woman, .... not so good, hence the need to man up.

silly woman, reinforcing something that is against her very interest.

but then, we see repugs do that often voting as they do. not unknown.

Is it because your non-racist, non-sexist, non-homophobic self just knows? You can tell somehow? I'm White and male, so I must think x, y and z?

And how do you know I'm not gay? Do I use "straight" words? Is it the way I walk or talk or something? How do you know I'm not gay?

And btw, do your awesome powers of being all knowing include the Powerball numbers for next Wed? And if so, would you pm them to me?

And yes, you can say and think whatever you like, I'm not trying to stop you, just asking you to explain the glaring discrepancies (hypocrisy).

we are getting repetitive.

Seems pretty clear where the majority falls on this PC issue.

That old right to free speech game?

Does that upset you? People not being intimidated into toeing your line?

fight for, without anyone calling you on it.

isnt it my free speech you attack?

You make stuff up then attribute your nonsense to others. Why in the world anyone takes you seriously, is amazing.

in your accusations. just insult.

please do, ignore my posts.

see. at the least, i can clarify my points.

so, i will eagerly anticipate the next #, for whatever reason.

fug

ok. probably not

... then we likely aren't going to get very far, but just in case you aren't being completely disingenuous, here's just a quick thought:

The right to free speech even applies to that which we totally disagree with, and no amount of browbeating, self-appointed word policing changes one damn thing about that.

Understand?

"Seems pretty clear where the majority falls on this PC issue..."

Standing with Coach Sterling, it would seem (insert distinction without a difference here).

is what you chose to do about it such as do you prefer to have sex with lights on or off?

1. How do you know it is only white hetero men
2. Would your opinion change if some who weren't white hetero men applauded it
3. If not, why does that matter to the discussion in the first place

"white hetro male is pissed that he cannot call women the b word" - he can call them that. Or maybe he should just call them a 'dog' instead (which seems to be an accepted term on DU when referring to a woman who does not agree with you. To some anyway.)

Lots of things can be implied by the terms people use to refer to others - many have a negative connotation to them and yet only some words seem to be restricted where the ideas behind them are just couched in new words and spewn out.

Civility comes more from what we imply than the precise words we use to imply something. Terminology is a short cut to an idea, and whether you use one of the words listed or some other word if you are implying the same thing does using a different word/phrase get a pass just because?

And what one term means in this graphic may not mean the same to others. The b word is listed as "using it means that a person using it sees femininity as inherently negative". Who came up with that definition for everyone? what about the magazine by that name - do you think they are using it in a negative way and if so why do some feminists like the magazine, post links from it, etc?

Context matters. Always. In my hood I hear the n word every time I am out and about. I hear it on the radio and in rap lyrics. I really don't think me telling a group of minorities at the gas station that they need to shut up and not use a word is going to end well around here. Maybe I could pull their white friends aside who use it with them in a conversation, like 'what's up n...', and tell them that using that term offends the person they are talking to (cause I am sure qualified to speak for everyone).

In public conversation, at work, on tv and such I can see some really valid points.

But I have a hard time condemning others on the language they use in their life.

It is a good topic, one worth discussing, but making it all black and white (which is a phrase I am surprised doesn't get more heck) and simply saying 'them white hetero males sure are pining to use some words' seems a little off the mark. It detracts from the discussion, judges a whole group based on your experience with a few from that group, and seems like a problem in and of itself.

why it is only the white hetero man whining about not being able to jab at any group, with any language, and not being called out for it is relevant, then....

why the hell would i waste my time. i mean. it is pretty in your face obvious. yet, you spent all that time typing out a whole lot of something.

why...... cant a white call a black the n word. not fair......

"why it is only the white hetero man whining about not being able to jab at any group"

You just reduced what could be an interesting and intelligent discussion down to men, one race, heterosexuals.

I would type more of a reply, but I don't think from your reply you really want a discussion. Just an acceptance of your opinion and views as the only one which is valid.

white. hetero. man. yes. i reduce it to that. cause that is teh point. talking pc. sexism. racism. homophobia.

you do not get the point, you really do not get the point that on the thread with maher saying no to pc, the only ones cheering are white men. you do not get the relevance of that. why... i point out, that in cheering not "pc nazi's" is only white men?

if you cannot even have an conversation about that, i do not know where you are going with any kind of desire for intellectual honesty.

white man.... is the point.

a white man telling all us to quit being so sensitive.

yet, you do not see any relevance in that.

If you have read my previous post you could have seen the conversation I was getting at. Your replies now seem to indicate your thread is about another thread.

If 'white man' is all you want to discuss I don't know what to tell you. White. Men. Bad. Seems to be all you want to discuss here. Not the core issues, terminology, social impact in different groups and how those things play out/map out.

Just - white men suck. Without ever realizing how sexist and racist that is in and of itself.

i do not know. i have not been on du much. wasnt paying attention. a poster in this thread, directed me to maher. hence, how the maher thread became a part of this thread.

and now...

i am outta here again.

you can go all thru your man bad, white men suck shit by yourself. just another derailing technique

Then maybe you will get it.

Last edited Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:21 AM - Edit history (1)

That simple indicates the OP's preference for avoiding gendered insults?

She isn't telling people at a gas station what to say. More often, there is NOTHING in the OP about race. As usual, you refuse to engage with the topic and demand others discuss what YOU want. Post your own OP if you want to talk about those issues. This is about gendered insults. No one is preventing you from using any sexist language you want. That is entirely your right. Just as it is the right of others to voice their concerns and form opinions about you in response.

As for context, any idiot knows that matters. Yet we also know that RW's raise those contexts as excuses for their own use of bigoted insults. Language is part of what signifies how people think, as does how one treats others, particular those who are different from them. What you continually insist is that others have NO RIGHT to form opinions about you based on your positions on issues like these. Your freedom of speech stops where it leaves your mouth. It does not extend to controlling the speech or thoughts of others, or insisting they should somehow regard you as an ally when you consistently opposes issues they care most about. You are bent of shape because someone posts an OP saying she doesn't like gendered insults. The fact is many progressives value equality and prefer to do what they can to reduce bigotry. If you are going to post on a progressive website, you will occasionally encounter posts by people who value equality, diversity, and respect for people of all genders, races, sexualities, etc. . Deal with it.

"Why is it that you so often object to others' efforts to treat human beings with respect?"

That is precisely what I was doing - but I guess some people are judged based on their gender/race/etc and you and a few others thing that treating them with respect not worth your time.

Go ahead - replace the things in the posts above with black/female/gay and see how it sounds.

It is funny how people yelling the loudest for such respect give none back and feel justified. I think we should treat everyone with respect (as I have noted here and elsewhere), not just some.

You are judged based on the positions you take, just like everyone else. For your point to be true, that would mean I would treat every white man the same way. The fact is there are some awesome men on this board committed to equality, and they are some of my favorite posters. The OP deals with gendered insults about men as well as women. It's very short. How is it that you couldn't manage to read it? What it does not contain is any discussion about race. I don't even know what your second sentence is suppose to mean. What is your point anyway? Is this the old, black people use the N word so why can't I argument?

Yes, context matters. If one calls a little kitty a pussy it is perfectly appropriate. When one uses it as an insult against a man for lacking strength, it is sexist. Bitch is a perfectly acceptable term to refer to a female dog. Many women object to being called a bitch, but some do not. So? What's your point? That Sea has no right to post that OP because some people like using sexist insults or don't find them offensive? They use sexist insults, why can't I? Well you can, whenever you like. And I in turn can form judgments as a result.

Give no respect back? How exactly are you being disrespected? What you mean is don't dare question you. if the OP doesn't indulge your desire to derail the thread to make it about the topic YOU want, that's lack of respect? How dare someone post an OP and not allow you to control its direction. That they think they can have their own ideas is to you disrespectful. Is their some reason you can't post your own OP rather than trying to force others to turn this thread into what you want? Expressing your views isn't enough. If someone doesn't following your directions, they are being disrespectful. You make repeatedly clear that you believe no one has any right to object to what you say or disagree with you in anyway. You keep on believing that. It won't get you very far. My mind is my own, and you have no right to control anything I say or think. I certainly have no interest in controlling your words or thoughts.

You're right that it isn't entirely accurate. I had other versions but I watered it down. Basically what I have observed you frequently object to concerns about gender and racial equality. So it really isn't about respect for others per se but concerns articulated by members of subaltern groups.

As for the insults by your like-minded friend in the peanut gallery, neither the OP nor my post tells anyone how to behave. That should be obvious to anyone who can read. I was repeatedly clear that you and everyone else are free to use any language you choose, Indeed, the First Amendment protects that right, as it does the speech of others to say what they think in response. You, however, are objecting to the fact one member posted an OP expressing her own views on gendered insults. No one is telling anyone how to behave. Rather it is you and he who are objecting to their choices to attempt to refrain from using bigoted language. So my title was an effort to avoid language I thought you would take offense to. Doing so, however, is clearly pointless since you have decided that the mere fact we disagree with you amounts to disrespect. That must make for a very frustrating experience on message boards.

There are 4 or 5 on DU that in my opinion have given feminism a bad name because of their hypocritical narrow mindedness that I, as a white heterosexual male, no longer call myself a feminist.

Forgive me for this observation, but it doesn't sound like a solid commitment in the first place.

It's ok though. You'll go on.

Perhaps you could see if the local college has any reading comprehension courses. You drew a lot of conclusions in this and your previous post that aren't even close to being supported by what I said. But you had an excuse to bash someone so all is well in your little world isn't it.

In a thread and start bashing away without anyone commenting?

I am asking questions for clarification and understanding. That is bad? While you insult. That is fine? See the confusion? Hence, the questions.

sensitive about what I read on the internet. What did I say that makes you think I would not want comments? I admit to wanting intelligent questions and discussion, not just insults. You also seem to be taking my post as a personal insult, why? Did you get the impression you were one of the 4 or 5 I was talking about? And here I don't even know your shoe size! You do know that you started the discussion between us, I entered this thread by responding to someone else not you.

So you are asking questions for clarification and understanding? Perhaps you also have some harsh words for the person that wrote this in post #32 as a response to a well thought out and written post #28.

Was it a solid commitment? Yes, was and still is, but it is no longer a vocal one. It was never active in the sense of marching or protesting, none of that in my area anyway, but it was a vocal one.

The difference is that I no longer feel good about defending a group when some claiming to be in that group are guilty of the same crimes they accuse others of committing.

Sometimes a group needs to police itself.

Last edited Sun Apr 27, 2014, 10:58 PM - Edit history (1)

What are they (I will assume that includes me) guilty of? The OP is about gendered insults and gives examples of insults regarding masculinity as well as femininity. How is that hypocritical? Because she didn't want to indulge another member's efforts to engage in an entirely different discussion? That the thread didn't become about what he (and I presume by your reaction you) want it to be rather than how the OP wrote it? What's to stop him or you from writing a thread about racial language in urban communities, or whatever other subjects you think more important than the subject of this OP? Yet rather than posting that OP or engaging in whatever your issue with this OP is, you decide to make it about four or five feminists you have decided are beneath contempt. This OP has over 80 recs, so clearly it's not just supported by four or five people. I fail to see what your issue is here other than personal animosity, which really isn't of interest to anyone but yourself.

point of a intellectually dishonest conversation.

and that, would simply be storytelling or whatever and i have no interest in that. total waste of time

BAINES<,,,,, how you doin' woman. life is good. perused. caught up. and now i am off to play

amazing the amount of in our face demand for the chance to be an out loud racist, across the nation, all of a sudden. too odd. like someone hit a button.

"There are 4 or 5 on DU that in my opinion have given feminism a bad name because of their hypocritical narrow mindedness that I, as a white heterosexual male, no longer call myself a feminist."

read it back to yourself, and still post it. It is a wonderful reflection of who you are. Send this to a jury because a callout is what it is. You have nothing in common with feminists of any walk. As you yourself say, you "no longer call yourself a feminist".

"narrow mindedness" you have fully reached your goal.

So you don't believe it's possible for anyone to hurt a cause they profess to be trying to advance?

You aren't doing very well at the one you have been doing for fifty years, so start working on the other one. Hint: This listening part is very important if you want to sound educated when you type. As you said, you are no feminist.

And I will actually play you game an answer your question. There is no doubt that people can hurt a cause they are trying to advance. There are also people out there stupid enough to be swayed by them. In your case four or five people have turned you against feminism. That is what you said and you backed it up by professing your lifelong ability to type. I'm impressed.

Fifty years and this is your gem. Try using your ears and brain a little more.

said I was no longer a supporter of women's causes. I said I would no longer call myself a feminist, but I never said I wasn't one and wouldn't support their cause. What I will not do is associate myself with those that will do harm to a very necessary movement and yes, I backed it up by typing my opinion about those that harm feminism.

You call this a game, but then answer that my observation was valid and you acknowledged that what I say is true.

Now use some of the skills you claim I don't have and read the entire thread, one that seemed to start with good intentions and then proceeded to be an excuse to bash people, and then tell me I'm wrong in my opinion. There were very valid opinions, concerns, and questions that were dismissed and the questioner bashed as easily as flicking a bug off the arm of a chair. I thought it made the responses look hypocritical and later responses reinforced my opinion. Then keep reading threads by some of the so called feminists on DU and tell me they aren't just an excuse by the OP to bash others and let the OP feel superior to those that question their opinions. I have noticed a pattern, you may not see it or even care.

But then you seem to like the bashing part yourself, don't you? By the way, how do you use your ears on DU?

I understand more about myself because of duers.
I realized some of the things I was unconsciously doing could be hurtful to others. Tought to me by duers.
I met President Carter because of a duer.


And I have now learned that you are not a feminist from a less than amazing duer. Nice shuffling you are doing. Typing does seem to be your strength. Four or five duers have moved you from calling yourself a feminist to not doing so. You were never one and that is very clear. You don't identify as one anymore because of a couple of people here. That is so small. I know it will not happen but I will once again suggest you listen to duers instead of type at them. I believe some of your other claims about as much as I believe you once called yourself a feminist. You did come to a good understanding with yourself that you aren't one. <-your own words.

As for what you listen to on DU, don't know much about that. What I read? You can believe all but I know there are many that aren't what they want you to believe they are. Some that seem to defend a worthy group are just blowing their own whistles, puffing themselves up by belittling others, causing problems, and doing more harm then good. Many are weak narrow minded people that come across as being strong, in real life they are not. Although on the internet you can't believe everything, you are still known by the company you keep.

Didn't think you would answer my question, few on DU do actually answer my questions.

I aren't one what? A feminist? Not what I said. I said I didn't call myself a feminist anymore not that I had changed you moral values. A few people on the internet aren't going to change who I am or change my set of values, I'm not that easily manipulated. Certainly not by that kind of person.

Have a good day and enjoy your peers.

I've never heard that one.

But, then I rarely hear any of these in real life. I guess I don't hang around the type of people that would say these things.

quite a few rappers and others saying "no homo" back in the day, along with "pause". I still see a few people say that online from time to time, but never in RL (like you said). Basically they say it after saying something sexually ambiguous so that others won't perceive them as gay.

gay.

like if some guy will say how he likes something a guy was wearing he will follow it with "no homo" .

"i like that shirt he was wearing. no homo".

i fucking hate when people say that . it makes them sound so fucking stupid also.

Guys saying things that might have made their manliness come into question (oh the horror) so they need to add the no homo disclaimer. Ridiculous. If you want to say you like the way a shirt looks on a guy, SAY IT. There's nothing wrong with that.

for so many of the men i know and love. i mean, they are not bigots. they are not. they live a life that is not. yet... when teh masculinity is called into question, they can embrace bodly but i watch... and wait... and sure enough, at the end, they just gotta.

i have almost, pretty much always, seen that they cannot stop themselves from clarifying,... masculine identity.

kinda like when women talk about feminist issues. we have such an urge, a need, to start with....

i like sex, i like men, i am not ugly. lol

it is the same thing. so i can understand and cut slack. but now. i wait. i hear. i laugh. and i point out.

cause i learned to never clarify... i like sex, i like men, i am not ugly.

and that is very freeing for me. i want the boys and men to be able to be free, too

I just don't get some people. I can understand a comic complaining because some can't make a joke without putting down someone else. (Limited talent.) But why do everyday people complain about being polite?

Basically, hypocritical cowards.

the different from clever, (and you will not get that type of comment), and the lazy comedian going for an easy laugh at anothers expense.

we listen to hours, days... lots of comedy. and you can really see the difference.

same with the comedies on tv. he is making me sit for hours and days, with season dvds on different comedies. park and recreation, big bang, community. and the easy sexist comedy is not nearly as funny, just lazy.

He made fun of transpeople, who are oppressed and vulnerable like few others in our society, and Gwyneth Paltrow, who annoys the shit out of everybody. SO BRAVE, SO INSIGHTFUL.

because someone with limited mental capabilities is just different and not bad (and someone can probably come up with even better wording that this).

When you think about all of these it's not even the word they use (although some have become so offensive we don't want to hear them) - it is the INTENT behind the word. The intent is to belittle, to make fun of, to put down. And that is not OK.

How many times have we seen "strong women" used by the OP and others in her favorite group? I have no problem with either term, but I don't believe I've ever used the term "man up" without being sarcastic.

People are strong.

Or not.

how it is defined? does that validate the use?

And perhaps the member TS'd but "man up" not so much.

have to do with what is said in the OP.

using man up, and why there should be an issue with using man up.

i do not know what your fight is, here.

Take from what you will or not.

cant really take or not take shit. since i do not get what your point is.

ok. you see man up on du.

i see almost all of it on du.

fine.



but whatever.

argued aggressively. the use. have a whole thread on maher argued by mostly white males the right to use slurs against others, without anyone calling them out. meh. nothing new there.

i and others on the other hand, have argued why man up should not be readily accepted. as i am doing again, here in this subthread and by creating the OP. and i will continue to when i see it posted on du.

Awesome.

of "I love being told what to think and say!" when all over the world, thru out our days, in so many ways of cmmunication, expression and opinion is shared.

yet... you feel intimidated by this little, simple graph in an OP.

ok

"Think about"
Work for you?

hurtful, or sensitive to how others feel. It isn't about being free to say and think whatever you want in all situations.

True, there are many who what to say whatever pops into their minds without thinking about whether it is offensive, but that doesn't make it right. I have even been guilty of it. It isn't right though.

The OP is meant to make people think about what they are saying before they say it, and reconsidering using these terms.

act as bigots, or be perceived as bigots. If these matter to you, then the content of the OP probably isn't your biggest problem.

shouting each one of those phrases from the rooftop. Just be ready because many of us will be yelling back. Not surprised you take issue. When your teacher told you that 2+2=4 did you tell her to stop telling you what to think? Because to educated and understanding people this op is a given.

Seabeyond's OP gets an enthusiastic KnR from me and I have some to add:

The other day I read through a thread that called Sean Hannity a douche bag. Sure, I could have joined in with the fun with a response like "Douche bag? Hannity should be so lucky!", cleverly insinuating that Sean Hannity has never...well you know. I chose instead not to post that bit of snark and almost posted a response very much like the one I am posting here.

We all know what a 'douche bag' is and used for and more specifically by whom. We all know what an 'enema bag' is too and that its use is gender non-specific. This point may go over like a fart in a church for some but for others it may provide food for thought: Why isn't 'enema bag' an equal if not more popular derogatory than 'douche bag'? Furthering that very train of thought, what subconscious societal meme is the currently acceptable derogatory use of the words 'douche bag' promoting regarding our desire to have gender equality?

Please before you dismiss me as being ridiculous let me plead the case.

One could easily argue that if anything this usage of douche bag is very subtle when it comes to insinuating any sort of negativeness toward women. Yes of course it is subtle but on a societal scale the impact isn't really so subtle when used in combination with a great many such societally acceptable "subtle" derogatories and terms. The combined effect is actually quite powerful and insidious! On this scale it reinforces the 'meme' that women are somewhat less than equal to men.

Let me give a more apparent example:
In a thread last week a fellow DUer called Cliven Bundy's armed gang of 'separitists' "pussies". As expected that post got alerted on and hidden fairly quick. So what was wrong with this vulgar use of the term "pussy"? If one were to ask anyone within our society what the usage meant the response would be "weakling" or "fearful", someone who is unable or unwilling to act bravely or decisively. To put it bluntly, if asked, many if not most members of our society would quickly tell you the opposite of being a 'pussy' is being 'manly'.

So are women weak, fearful and indecisive? Are men entirely opposite? Who said that men can't be fearful or indecisive too? Of course on average men are physically stronger than women but why should physical strength alone make women as fellow humans unequal to men? Do you want to live in a society where equality is based on physical strength? More importantly, do we really want to live in a society where there is inequality between the genders? Sadly the societal meme derived from this vulgar use of the word 'pussy' is that the two genders are not equal and worse, that one is LESS than the other!

America's history is rich with examples of gender inequality and the phenomenon goes on to this day. This is being reinforced by subconscious memes unwittingly accepted by members within our society! Answering my rhetorical question in the previous paragraph, "NO!-and especially here at DU, we do not want to live in an unequal society!" I would argue proudly that as Progressives we are working on recognizing how inequality is promoted through our very words and memes. OPs like this one from fellow DUer Seabeyond is proof of what I say.

We here in the DU as a society have grown uncomfortable with that usage of the word 'pussy' as a derogatory. We may not cognitively understand the whys and wherefores of our uncomfortableness but this usage of that word is passing out of the DU's societal acceptability. Social Anthropologists have a term for a section of a society's language called Taboo Words. The racially charged "N" word has passed into the realm of Taboo Words already and that is what is happening to this use of the word "pussy". We may not see it so easily but this should become the case for the derogatory use of the words 'douche bag' and all of the gender specific derogatory words and terms too.

When it comes to racially charged Taboo Words and terms, DU as a society would pounce on their use imidiately! This is good that we are like this, we can take pride in ourselves for being sensitive to the impact these types of words have. We can be ashamed of and for those within our society that do not see this. We want equality for all....well don't we? Well aren't women 'allowed' in on that very same equality?

Some may say that racial inequality is a whole different matter than gender inequality. Let me make the case here that in a very real sense on a societal level the two inequalities can have an equal impact. This is painfully obvious but it is rarely if ever considered: A society that takes FULL advantage of it's strengths will have better opportunity for survival than one which only takes advantage of some of it's strengths. Bluntly: What boon to our society never materialized because the author was not 'white' enough? Just as importantly: How many lives have been cut short because we failed to take full advantage of our society's maternalistic strengths? We can not even comprehend how much we lost through time as a society because we could not take full advantage of ALL of the strengths within our society!

Yes, it is true that unlike 'race' there are differences when it comes to gender. The two genders ARE different but in order to fully take advantage of each ones unique strength neither must be treated as less equal. Which view ranks caring for our children our elderly or our disabled higher, the paternalistic or the maternalistic? Historically a woman's strength has not been in waging wars but instead in caring for a society's citizenry. There are of course exceptions to this 'rule', a man can have a maternalistic view and a woman a paternalistic one but by and large there are gender differences. Utilizing the strengths within those differences can be to our best advantage as a society.

I will argue the gender point further by pointing out that when in crises mode we should not be caring which member of which gender is best to come to the rescue. If in a fire and incapacitated do we really care if the 'man' rescuing us is a woman? The important consideration is only: Is the rescuer capable? If we exclude women from such jobs then we reduce the amount of capable persons whom we can rely on in a pinch. On the larger societal scale when it comes to waging or not waging a war, when it comes to finding the best path for a society shouldn't we seek the wisdom of the best minds within that society? Why exclude minds here based on gender? Who is to say that the best path couldn't be found from a maternalistic perspective and yet historically nine times out of ten that wisdom is not considered! Again I bluntly ask: How many lives were lost to unnecessary war because we as a society chose to limit who makes our choices on going to war? Why can't ALL of the capable minds be 'allowed' to contribute EQUALLY to pulling our society out of a crises? Why limit the amount of capable minds available?

I would like to suggest how NOT to address those within our society who inadvertently promote inequality and this applies to blatant racists as well as those of us here who may not be self aware when we are using words that promote inequality sexual, racial or otherwise. Using Cliven Bundy as an example, he is indeed a racist. I would argue that he was not born that way. He became racist because of his society-he was likely raised to think this way and his immediate society reinforced the lessons he was raised with. Odds are he does not see himself as a racist at all! Can this erroneous view be changed within Mr. Bundy? I like to think so. How? Well no, I do not know exactly how to change Mr. Bundy's crap sandwich philosophies but I can tell you how NOT to change them and that is through anger or derision.

When someone lashes out at you with anger and or derision is that the best way to convince you to make changes in any of your personal philosophies? Most likely you will instead focus on the anger and dismiss the point being made! If we were to call Mr. Bundy a racist "douche bag" he not only utterly dismisses whatever point we may have had for calling him that but he dismisses us as being nothing short of WRONG on all counts. There will be ZERO chance for success when reaching out to him this way. That is how NOT to change Mr. Bundy and this example holds true on how not to change anyone including our fellow DUers.

I believe that unlike Mr. Bundy we members of the DU can be more receptive to change within our personal paradigms. We complain that those on the right prefer their paradigms over facts, maybe this is true but we would be comical hypocrites if the same were true about us. I do indeed think that when presented with facts the average DUer is willing to alter his or her paradigm to accommodate the newly revealed facts. For this reason I ask of you to find the non-aggressive way to present your case when pointing things out to your fellow DUers. Isn't the goal here to change a paradigm? Well hopefully you see it ain't likely to happen if you try to do so through aggression!

We call ourselves Progressives, everyone here wants equality for all members of our society-actually we wish this for all citizens of this planet. I know it was lengthy but I hope I was able to show you something I am becoming aware of regarding the promotion of inequality. I know that many here are very aware of what I said but I suspect it won't be a case of telling all of my fellow DUers that water is wet! My goal was food for thought. Some if not most of us are willing to fight for total equality with our words and that is what I am doing with this post, so is fellow DUer Seabeyond with her OP. I want to live in that society where as Dr. King put it "All God's Children Are Equal" and I know you do to. Let future generations look back on us and say that it was the Progressive Movement that drew the final line in the sand on the individual and societal ravages of inequality! Thanks for listening.

and it continues to get better and better. awesome post. thank you

I'd like to think my words may have held some usefulness if read by any of our fellow Duers who posted earlier. Now I doubt they will be seen by any but you. Unlike you I am not so brave that I can post my real thoughts and feelings in this-'war to achieve equality' so often. Furthermore I suffer from PTSD of a type that I do not react well to being hollered at. You appear to take a lot of unkind posts and yet you keep up the fight! Just so you know: my hat is off to you for staying in that fight. I believe I have made clear a couple of reasons why that fight for equality is an important one. My post was too lengthy, (and too late), to add in the observable and not so observable ravages that come about due to gender inequality. If anything at all in my above post is useful to you, please use it. I want it out there as food for thought.

Thanks for the compliments too.
chris 'chknltl' chick

I have had some fun ones sent to me today and decided I had better step back for a tad. Let things settle. Eventually... You know, one may get thru.

I hear you on not wanting to step in it and for your own personal reasons. I respect that. And I hear it too often from other women.

And thank you for permission if use. It is long. We use to have duers that could settle back and read long. Not so much today.

I am very pleased to have returned to this thread. I would not have wanted to miss your post. Thank you.

The way it is used in every single way is about fighting through something and getting over it. Interchangeable with other terms like "ice up" or "grit up". The man part is an implication of growing from a boy to a man. On edit, and yes, I have heard female athletes use "woman up".

I avoid using every other one. Did have someone tell me that calling a guy a prick is the same as calling a woman a bitch...since I avoid using either, I feel that covers all the bases.

God damn piece of shit house, there is a reason we have building codes....

Fucking cast iron drain pipe. I have called this particular section of pipe every name under the sun. Oh, and this is an A-Frame house pier-and-beam foundation. What kind of stupid fucking asshole would use CONCRETE on a six inch coupling right where it goes through the floor down underneath the crawl space? So you know, Can't just cut the split rusty section out I have to cut all the fucking line out crawl underneath, put a new fitting....blah blah



Oh, and not to mention Roto Rooter dude was running his snake (luckily I put a cleanout WHERE THERE WAS NONE years ago in this area) and guess what he pulled back after the clog went down? Guess? Fucking rat tails, dead decomposed rat. One long one and three little short baby rat tails. Rats, that was what was clogging the drain. Rats in the drain line

makes me feel so bad while i PAY him to do this shit, says the same shit. lol

i know it well

i coddle that damn plumbing.

I'm just trying to keep this particular house patched up long enough so she can sell it to somebody that wants a fixer-upper...

The best thing to do in this case would be to cut it for example right below where a toilet is, put an adapter and two elbows and convert to PVC, then run all new PVC drain line out to the main. I asked Roto Rooter dude, so about 3-4K right? He said yep, 4K LOL

i know that much about plumbing. but ya. my house redone '87. i have to ask if plumbing included. thinking not. my plumber has been doing this house since then, and was part of the whole remodeling. but ya.... i have become more aware and in buying another house, will be part of the consideration. thinking newer. lol