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The Unbearable Whiteness of the American Left
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/unbearable-whiteness-american-left
At a panel titled “Grassroots Organizing” at the Network for Public Education conference in Austin in March, an audience member asked the all-white panel for its definition of “grassroots.” The conference had been called to “give voice to those opposing privatization, school closings, and high-stakes testing.”
As the questioner pointed out, those disproportionately affected by these developments are poor and minority communities. Chicago, for example, a city that is one-third white, has a public school system in which 90 percent of the students are children of color and 87 percent come from low-income families. When the city schools shut down last year, 88 percent of the children affected were black; when Philadelphia did the same, the figure was 81 percent.
You’d think black people might have something to contribute to a discussion about that process and how it might be resisted. Yet on this exclusively white panel at this predominantly white conference, they had no voice.
One panelist said he found the question offensive. “I didn’t know it was a racial thing,” he said.
In the United States, campaigns for social justice are always “a racial thing.” That doesn’t mean they might not be about other “things,” too. Indeed, they invariably are. Race does not exist in a vacuum. But in a country that has never considered equality beyond its most abstract iterations and that has practiced slavery far longer than freedom, race is never entirely absent.
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Gary Garrison
(31 posts)It's not right.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I can understand that some people do get frustrated that the Left doesn't always do enough to face ethnic issues. And you know what? Sometimes we do mess up. Sometimes we do fall short.
But the belief that PoC are being actually *excluded* is definitely problematic, even if that's how some may feel.
merrily
(45,251 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:29 AM - Edit history (1)
bigotry and racism should be bashed EVERY TIME it's rears it's amerikkkan hydra head, no matter who does it.
are you talking about????
gollygee
(22,336 posts)of anyone but the society where it's systemic.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Regardless of what some people may say, the left DOES NOT have a significant problem with actual exclusion as the right does(and frankly, anyone who says otherwise is guilty of perpetuating the "both sides are equally bad" fallacy, even if not intentionally). There are some issues, yes. But nothing like what the
merrily
(45,251 posts)
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I have, however, pointed out that the Left does sometimes fall short of talking & doing enough about ethnic issues, that much seems to be true from what I've observed. All I'm saying is that the claim that People of Color are being outright *excluded*, doesn't seem to be quite supportable.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They like to speak for people and are often not willing to listen to minority voices. They make it about themselves. This is why many do not vote in midterms. Nothing to vote for when you have no input.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Happy Monday bravenak! 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I had to say it. 
heaven05
(18,124 posts)discussion/'spanking' you got from some 'liberals' on this site. You said/did nothing to deserve censure. But I was jolted awake as to the real feelings of some here during the zimmerman trial. Woke me up big time. So I was not surprised at the feigned outrage by some on this board. "Nothing to vote for when you have no input". Never more correct.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The way some were sorta happy when he walked made me cry.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)It still burns me just how they could have allowed this racist dickhead to walk. Trayvon Martin was a decent kid just trying to get a snack and walk home.....he didn't deserve what he got. And I hope Zimmerman gets some karma shoved up his ass at some point.....
bravenak
(34,648 posts)People cringing away from wherever he goes, like a leper. He deserves at least that much.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm good with that.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)think and feel the way he does. They are the ones who raised money for his defense.
A different point to consider: to what degree should we respond to hate with hate? I don't
feel quite sure about this answer.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I respond to hate by loud mockery usually. People like him need to be shunned and treated like dirt. He is old news, nobody want to give him anything anymore. They have a new racist with a militia to donate to now. His 15 minutes is over, he will be broke forever. The though of him selling his guns for food pleases me. And thinking about him homeless.
Its hard to hate stupid. I just feel sorry and disgusted.
freebrew
(1,917 posts)I'm sorry, who is that exactly? The 'Professional Left'? The Socialists? Clarify please.
The term is misleading. It isn't the 'left' that runs school boards or has ANY power ANYWHERE in this country. And here, on a Democratic site, the left gets bashed again for something that has nothing to do with the 'Left'?
The OP is BS as it is blaming a problem on a group of people that have no power.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Check in with me on FB. 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Tee hee! Squinch!
merrily
(45,251 posts)Proud member of the left of the left here; and I hear you.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)do you have a citation for that?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I didn't. You put those words in my mouth. Thats exactly what i mean.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Did you read it and the comments? I did.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Which is not to say that the problem isn't more widespread.
I've worked in the drug reform movement, which was pretty lily-white at the beginning. It took years and years to win any level of support or buy-in from the black community, even as those communities were being ravaged by the war on drugs.
Now, the drug reform movement increasingly reflects the diversity of America. The NAACP has come on board, and there are groups like Break the Chains explicitly articulating a black perspective on the issue.
The Drug Policy Alliance (not my employer) has been very good ensuring that minority communities are represented and heard and organized on these social justice and civil rights issues. Maybe that could be a model for other progressive movements and organizations.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Engaging and listening to the concerns of groups and reaching out. Other orgs should take some tips and use them. Saying there is a problem is not saying that we hate the left, we are the left. Nobody is even suggesting that we are anywhere near as bad as republicans who do it on purpose.
This can be solved easily.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)not easily. The tough part is gaining acceptance of the idea that there is a problem.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He admits there is a problem. We just disagree on the size. I think it is a start at the very least.
sheshe2
(83,773 posts)We do need to listen and learn. And by no means talk over or presume we know better.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And think it through, it wont be so upsetting.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I honestly don't know what your personal experience has been, but it is generally true that overall, white liberals have done their best to address the issues faced by People of Color. Maybe not perfectly, perhaps, that may be true. But there is hardly a problem of white liberals making it "all about them", contrary to what some may believe.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)' white liberals have done their best to address issues faced by people of color'
No. They have not yet decided to listen. Work with us, not for us.
Respect our opinions and allow us to have input without negating everything we say. If we can't tell you there is a problem because you wont believe us, then you will be shocked when we are no longer interested in what you want to say.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
Respect our opinions and allow us to have input without negating everything we say. If we can't tell you there is a problem because you wont believe us, then you will be shocked when we are no longer interested in what you want to say.
But here's the thing: the left may not be perfect. That's not in doubt. But we do listen to each other by and large.
Also, contrary to what you have seem to have implied here, you don't speak for all PoC. Just as I don't speak for all fellow "white" liberals. You & I are but individuals. I understand that you feel one way, and I feel another. But I at least do my best to balance personal feelings with factual observation. And it tells me that actual exclusion isn't a real overall problem with the American left.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm sure i already knew that. And i'm telling you that Actual Exclusion is a real problem, and as a member of the excluded i do not need you to tell me how things really are. See what i mean about you are doing it right now? You did it again.
Outreach and listening to minority groups is important, so, if they are speaking out, isn't it best to listen and maybe believe your most reliable allies when they say there is a problem? Instead of saying the problem i have is imaginary?
Have you perused black political media to see if poc have a problem being excluded? If you go and fo a google search instead if denying what i am saying you will see that many black/Hispanic people feel meh about the left. I belong to both groups. My hispanic friends are thinking republicans are evil and democrats don't care. My black friends wonder if they are going to care as much after Obama is gone. Bodes well for 2016. They way the left has turned on the president has many feeling dismayed with the party. Something needs to be done besides ignoring the problem and shutting down critisism.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And i'm telling you that Actual Exclusion is a real problem, and as a member of the excluded i do not need you to tell me how things really are. See what i mean about you are doing it right now? You did it again.
And all I'm saying is that one's personal experience =/= fact by itself.
As I've said before, it's true that the left doesn't always do a perfect job of addressing ethnic issues, but all the evidence out there is saying that the left doesn't have an actual problem with actual exclusion, unlike the right, and to be honest, saying otherwise falls right into the "the other side is just as bad" fallacy that the righties like to play on. And we can't afford to allow ourselves to be divided just because a small fraction of discontented idealists.
Something needs to be done besides ignoring the problem and shutting down critisism.
I'm all for discussion, but not for people reaching wild conclusions based on a few bad subjective experiences.....I'll admit that I've been guilty of that myself from time to time, btw.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)No need to have a discussion if poc who feel shut out are just discontent idealists.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Now granted, to be honest, this was before I joined this site.....but it's still the truth.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Good day, sir. I do not think you read the article.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)It does raise a few good points. But it still does jump too far with its conclusions, and that's not conducive to solving whatever problems, gaps, etc., that may exist, no matter how noble the intention behind the exaggeration.
Good day to you.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)You present your personal experience as established fact, and her personal experience as not factual.
I would point out that you ALWAYS present your personal experience as established fact, as long as I have read you on DU.
No such fact has been actually established, of course, except in your mind, yet you pontificate on as if something has been proven when it hasn't been proven at all. You also tend to be quite patronizing about it. Your life experience trumps all.
You are excluding bravenak's experience as a POC as only her individual opinion that is unrepresentative of other people of color. You really should take her suggestion to read the opinions of the other POC here on DU, where you would discover that bravenak's opinions are broadly shared among them. Bravenak is an exceptional commentator, in my opinion, and is right on the money is pointing out the dissatisfaction many African-Americans feel in dealing with white progressives who show little real interest in issues not related to themselves. These white progressives will also take it upon themselves to assume that they know what is best for POC without actually talking with them or listening to them. You are a case in point.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
I would point out that you ALWAYS present your personal experience as established fact, as long as I have read you on DU.
Not exactly. What I *have* said, however is that I do try to base my opinions on facts and objective observation. And occasionally, I do get it wrong. And when I do, I try to correct that. In this case, however, there's nothing that definitively disproves the observations that I have made. And the observations I've made are not unique to myself.
You are excluding bravenak's experience as a POC as only her individual opinion that is unrepresentative of other people of color.
And it is an individual opinion. It's an opinion that may be shared by some, to varying degrees, but it isn't universal. My opinion is ALSO individual, but there are people out there who will agree with me, to varying degrees. Nothing wrong with pointing that out.
You really should take her suggestion to read the opinions of the other POC here on DU, where you would discover that bravenak's opinions are broadly shared among them
I do realize that some on this site do agree with her(in fact, look around). That I don't deny. All I'm pointing out is that, again, this is NOT a universal view.....that is, the view rhat PoC are actually being *excluded* by white folks from liberal circles, as opposed to that the left could sometimes do a better job addressing ethnic issues(the latter view I can agree with, though, because that is what I have observed myself).
. These white progressives will also take it upon themselves to assume that they know what is best for POC without actually talking with them or listening to them. You are a case in point.
To the contrary, actually. In fact, I don't claim to be omniscient. All I do is try to base my opinion on objective observation and factual information. And, as it happens, what that's telling me right now, doesn't quite line up with her opinion. That doesn't mean that her personal experiences are invalid, by the way, nor did I imply otherwise.
But what I *am* saying, is, one's personal experiences alone may not always form the most informed opinion.. I myself can admit to making that mistake from time to time, by the way.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)What makes you think you possess the necessary facts, when you can't possibly have the necessary life experience to have them in the first place? The inherent limitation to what you can understand, even if you work at it, and you haven't, is that you are not now and never will be black, and so therefore can't know what it is like as a personal experience. You can't stand outside that and know.
What knowledge do you have of the black community in the US? Do you live with black people? Do you socialize with black people? Do you even work with black people? How do you know of what issues are of concern to them?
I think, from the way that you express yourself, that you have little to no experience in this area.
I'm going to single this out as your core pattern:
Not exactly. What I *have* said, however is that I do try to base my opinions on facts and objective observation. And occasionally, I do get it wrong. And when I do, I try to correct that. In this case, however, there's nothing that definitively disproves the observations that I have made. And the observations I've made are not unique to myself.
A few of my observations about you:
1) You have presented no proof you your observations. You never do.
2) You don't have facts, either, presented anywhere as part of your thesis.
3) You argue by assertion only, and never support your observations. You now ask others to disprove your unsupported assertion. Sorry, it is your argument to make, and you haven't made it.
Once again, if you were actually interested in the opinions of African-Americans, there are a multitude of blogs out there. I can tell by your "observations" that you haven't read any of them.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)
well done
kwassa
(23,340 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)What makes you think you possess the necessary facts, when you can't possibly have the necessary life experience to have them in the first place?
The inherent limitation to what you can understand, even if you work at it, and you haven't,
is that you are not now and never will be black, and so therefore can't know what it is like as a personal experience.
But that's not what this was about. Don't be dishonest, kwassa.
A few of my observations about you:
1) You have presented no proof you your observations. You never do.
Neither has bravenak(not yet, anyway), who you keep vociferously defending for whatever reason. This isn't a slam on her, by the way; I only state this as a rebuttal to your claims.
2) You don't have facts, either, presented anywhere as part of your thesis.
Bravenak has no citations, either. But you only go after me.
3) You argue by assertion only, and never support your observations. You now ask others to disprove your unsupported assertion.
So has the person you're defending.
Sorry, it is your argument to make, and you haven't made it.
You're not even making sense now.
Whatever the case, it's quite clear you came to this thread not to actually defend bravenak, but rather, it's obvious you have a beef of some kind against *me*, for whatever reason.
Once again, if you were actually interested in the opinions of African-Americans, there are a multitude of blogs out there. I can tell by your "observations" that you haven't read any of them.
To the contrary, actually. I can name a few: Denise Oliver-Velez for one. Chauncey DeVega over at "We Are Respectable Negroes" for another. And there's at least a few more whose names who I can't recall at the moment. And all of these people have had some very interesting & valid points to make, I won't argue with that. I truly believe they do, in fact. But that doesn't mean that I can't disagree with them once in a while. I even disagree with the President on a few things from time to time.....but I still have a great deal of respect for the man.
So whatever the case, it's also clear that you know pretty much nothing about who I really am, other than your preconceived (and rather inaccurate, I might add!) notions.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)I find you condescending and dismissive, in my humble opinion, and as I previously pointed out, you argue only by assertion.
Why are your opinions about African-American involvement more valid that those of African-Americans? Not only bravenak, but a host of other DU African-Americans? Bravenak is stating a commonly-held perception, and she is so good because she states it very clearly and well.
You attempt to minimize it by declaring it to be just her individual opinion, as if you had any knowledge of that, which you don't, of course. You appear to have little actual knowledge of African-Americans, not that this has prevented you from having strong opinions about them, in their relation to the left.
What contact do you have in your life, on a personal level, with African-Americans? You failed to answer all my questions on that.
And what I know about you is what you present yourself to be in this forum. If you think I know nothing about you, then you need to present yourself differently. What I see so far is not too impressive, or knowledgeable.
I think you are the exact type of white progressive that is the problem. You think you know something you have no experience with.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
I find you condescending and dismissive, in my humble opinion, and as I previously pointed out, you argue only by assertion.
Same here. In fact, I'll go a step further. You actually *have* been *quite* condescending. So it's a "pot calling the kettle black" type situation.
Why are your opinions about African-American involvement more valid that those of African-Americans?
Oh, give me a break. I never implied that and you know that, kwassa. You know damn well that's not true......either that or you've deluded yourself. Either way, it's pathetic.
What contact do you have in your life, on a personal level, with African-Americans? You failed to answer all my questions on that.
I've known some from time to time. Hung out with a few. Of course, I'll admit that this was when I was younger and I didn't have as much free time as I'd have liked, but that's the truth. Of course, I doubt you'll be satisfied by that, given your previous blathering.
I think you are the exact type of white progressive that is the problem. You think you know something you have no experience with.
Sure, if you say so.
Frankly, I never claimed to be perfect(or even implied such). I've admitted that I'm not. But you are clearly so hypocritically full of yourself that it's frankly pointless bothering anymore.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)IMO, valid observations; however, I caution you ...
What contact do you have in your life, on a personal level, with African-Americans?
It doesn't matter what his level of interaction with Black folks, or the Black community, so long as he has convinced himself that his vicarious observations equal the lived experience of others. It's like saying, "I know because I have a Black friend" (or, as one has even said, "because I dated a Black woman." ... I kid you not).
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)you have said it directly, or rather, you have said not "equal to" more valid, ... to several members of this forum, in this thread, much prevalently to Bravenak, as you devalue her life experience in favor of your experience.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Just stop.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Here:
And here:
And here:
And Here:
And Here:
And Here:
And Here:
I could post at least 20 more, but if you don't understand your own words ... what they mean to other people; people that are aggrieved ... it would all be wasted effort.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)So do quite a few others, actually.....so yeah, that pretty much seals the deal.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)like with so many other topics, e.g., racism, privilege, etc., you simply refuse to see that your saying someone is experience based opinion is "simply and rather obviously false", can only be based on your opinion that your opinion is correct.
I'm done.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Why do you keep insisting on something that is plainly untrue?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)You have no experience of African-American life, but dismiss those that do.
And think you know better. Aside from being pure foolishness ...
This is a soft form of racism, in my opinion.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Especially with that last statement. And with that, I'm afraid I have no choice to but to put you on my ignore list, because it's clear you are just doing this just to fuck with me, simply because I said things you didn't like; and that's not cool.
I honestly have nothing else to say, except that I hope you'll try to be more decent in the future. 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)No matter how many times he says it, all that comes out is, "You're wrong ... I know more about the Black experience than you, Black person." IOWs, (and back to the initial post) "I don't have to listen to you because I am white, er, right!"
And it's NOT a "soft" form of racism ... It is the foundation of racism and the source of the racial divide among supposed allies.
But, I guess this discussion is over because he called you a fool and then put you on ignore. I can only hope, he puts me there, as well.
Question: When someone puts you on ignore, I know that can't see your posts; but can you see their posts?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Donald Sterling proves how intimately one can be involved with black people and still be outrageously racist.
Sterling thinks he knows better. So does this guy.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Will try again later.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)Don't give up bravenak--can't wait to see your next post!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)pause for a moment and re-read what Brave has written (numerous times) about being listened to and having what is said accepted ... Then, re-read your responses ... not very accepting, I might note.
merrily
(45,251 posts)bravnak's reply.
Number23
(24,544 posts)This article, millions of black and Asian and Hispanic and other people of color and the poster you are responding to are telling you FLAT OUT that is not true. And your response to that is to tell the person of color that you are responding to that what SHE is saying is what's not true.
You are doing EGG ZACTLY what this OP talks about. You could not be illustrating more perfectly this OP and bravenak's point more beautifully if you were trying.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)You could not be illustrating more perfectly this OP and bravenak's point more beautifully if you were trying.
Not at all. As I've said, I understand that she has had her own experiences, and that's fine. However, though, as I pointed out, personal experiences by themselves do not necessarily produce the most informed opinions.
For example, say that a Jewish guy who lives in Denver has had to deal with a gang of some Syrian Muslim immigrant teenagers who have been harassing him and other Jewish folks for a while, because of his ethnicity, or whatever, and that the Syrian community in Denver has only occasionally addressed the problem in that neighborhood. Now this guy may feel that that the Syrian-Americans don't care about Jews and that he may assume that many, many other Jews feel the same way. And that is understandable, given his personal situation. And in this hypothetical case, it indeed would be prudent for the most prominent Syrian-American community to continue to address the actions of these teenagers. But would it really be fair to say that all the Syrian-Americans in Denver are truly indifferent to the issue of what is happening to some Jewish people in Denver, because it's not happening to them? In this scenario, by the way, the city of Denver, and the Rocky Mountain West as a whole, are currently undergoing a serious regional recession and the governor of Colorado is being investigated for possible involvement in a statewide corruption scandal; issues that would affect ALL Denverites and other Coloradoans, not just a portion.....and that includes the Syrian Americans, of course. So, would it really be fair to assume that the Syrian-American community are all uncaring towards Jews? The answer, in all truthfulness, is no. It would not be fair.
I admit it's not a totally perfect example but there's a crucial point in all this. Take it as you will.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I didn't read past your sentence ONCE AGAIN insinuating that bravenak's experiences cannot possibly be as valid/important/meaningful as yours. And you've got half the thread telling you that your behavior is insulting, offensive and ignorant. But I'm sure that just means that the myriad people that have called you out are the ones that have it all wrong and not you.
I have no idea why you always leap into these conversations. There has not been a discussion about race in this forum that you have not lept into for reasons only you will ever understand and wound up alienating and ostracizing yourself immensely. At some point you'd think you'd have the good grace (if not sense) to just stop.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
I didn't read past your sentence ONCE AGAIN insinuating that bravenak's experiences cannot possibly be as valid/important/meaningful as yours.
That's not at all what I implied. Here's what I wrote:
Not at all. As I've said, I understand that she has had her own experiences, and that's fine. However, though, as I pointed out, personal experiences by themselves do not necessarily produce the most informed opinions.
However, as I pointed out, this can be true for anyone, and I too, have made errors in that regard, as I admitted at least once that I can recall:
I myself can admit to making that mistake from time to time, by the way.
There has not been a discussion about race in this forum that you have not lept into for reasons only you will ever understand and wound up alienating and ostracizing yourself immensely.
I have some pretty good reasons for being honest and speaking the truth, in response to things that are either untrue or are flawed in some other way(and unfortunately, there's been quite the problem in that regard). And it's not just with this subject; I've also been critical of climate doomsayers and Obama bashing in the past as well.
You may not like what I say sometimes, and that's your right. After all, this is a free country. However, though, I must admit that I find it a little disconcerting that a certain few have jumped to these rather harsh conclusions simply because I disagreed with someone.
Off the record, I'm not accusing anyone of being a bad person. But it's clear that some people could use a little bit of an opening of their minds & a wider perspective. I've had to do that myself, so I'm not perfect either.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Pete and Repeat were in a boat. Pete fell out, who was left?
Repeat.
Pete and Repeat were in a boat. Pete fell out, who was left?
Repeat
Pete and Repeat were in a boat. Pete fell out, who was left?
Repeat.
Pete and Repeat were in a boat. Pete fell out, who was left?............... and on it goes.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)https://www.google.com/search?q=i+can't+hear+you+gif&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=RcRfU6fvKcOdyASGm4CgAw&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQ7Ak&biw=1280&bih=938#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=lrUsMsollqbnBM%253A%3BaUEzetE1DMuGxM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmariniwellness.files.wordpress.com%252F2011%252F10%252Flalalalacanthear.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmariniwellness.com%252Fpage%252F2%252F%3B450%3B312
Or, better ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=i+can't+hear+you+gif&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=RcRfU6fvKcOdyASGm4CgAw&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQ7Ak&biw=1280&bih=938#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=tB6bk2WZjSzGOM%253A%3B-4Fjw-54UDQnDM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi284.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fll36%252FBigsteve87%252FGifs%252Ftumblr_lkzkutXQYx1qehnt6.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fs284.photobucket.com%252Fuser%252FBigsteve87%252Fmedia%252FGifs%252Ftumblr_lkzkutXQYx1qehnt6.gif.html%3B281%3B250
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)When you end up feeling like you have to repeat yourself, because the other guy simply won't listen to what you're trying to say(and in some cases, jumps to these really out-of-left-field conclusions based on a poor intrepretation of the other person's words.).
boston bean
(36,221 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)is clearly wrong because his opinion is correct.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)quite a while. Most of the younger folks I have come across recognize, and can operationalize, the concepts of privilege, continuing and rampant discrimination, misogyny, etc., as the status quo ... without feeling them a threat.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)than you do. No matter how innocuous your intentions, it inevitably makes you look arrogant and pompous.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I hate to be terribly blunt but I don't think you paid a lot of attention to what's been going on here. No offense, but I'm afraid there's no other conclusion to be drawn here.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)your (perhaps somewhat informed) opinion on the same level as others' actual lived experience. If others say they feel excluded and marginalized, then how does your personal opinion, as someone who doesn't even belong to the same group, equal that in importance? And you may say otherwise, but your need to vehemently argue with what these folks are telling you in apparent good faith, doesn't exactly demonstrate the attributes of a good listener.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)could be expected to have greater direct experience with the subject of the OP, being left-leaning people of color themselves. As if their actual life experience were no more valid than your observations and suppositions.
I don't really think you had bad intentions, but this thread kind of snowballed in a way. Which is too bad because it ends up derailing an important discussion.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I have stated, at least a few times now, that personal experiences are not at all invalid; but that sometimes, they alone don't always form the most informed opinions. And a good part of the reason I bring that point up, as I have also stated before, is that I have made my own mistakes from time to time in that regard. To make a long story short, it was an attempt to build a bridge towards reciprocative empathy, even if just on the most basic general level.
As if their actual life experience were no more valid than your observations and suppositions.
But then again, this still wasn't about racism in general, but about one particular controversy; the supposed exclusion of PoC from the American Left. And yes, I do full well realize that these things don't exactly happen in a vacuum; that much is true.
In any case, it's clear that perhaps maybe this thread would be better off locked before things get any worse.....in any case, I see no point in participating further.
Before I leave, however, I'd like to be honest and say that I do very much appreciate your civil discourse, regardless of any disagreements we may have had.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that YOUR "truth" is not THE "truth" for the group that you wish to instruct. You stubbornly insist that YOUR "truth" is an "objective" truth; whereas, Brave's (and Number23's, and presumably, every Black person that doesn't agree with you) truth is somehow invalid. IOWs, and for the 100th time, you are doing exactly what the article is talking about ... you are devaluing the lived experience of others ... and wondering why those others resist you.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Going by that line of logic.
And it does frankly bother me a little that you have jumped to such a radical conclusion, that is, the accusation that I am somehow devaluing another person's experiences simply because I disagreed with their opinion. When in fact, this was simply and rather obviously false. I even made it clear, several times, mind you, that I understand that everybody will have different experiences. And pointing out that one's personal experiences by themselves don't necessarily always help form the most informed opinions is hardly "devaluing" them at all. I even admitted that this was true in my case as well.
It's alright to have differing opinions and what not, but accusing a person of "devaluing" someone's experiences just because they disagreed with their opinion is honestly uncool & mean-spirited and I would definitely appreciate an apology.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)This was about the claim that some PoC have felt excluded from the discourse of the American Left. And my response to that is, while that POV is understandable.....one's personal experience, (and I speak in general terms, btw, not just by this one subject alone) while still valid, doesn't always lead up to the most informed opinion by itself.....
I mean, I dunno how much clearer I can be on this.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I will leave you to ponder that ... or not.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)of someone who's actually experienced these things firsthand. That's what people are objecting to.
And like it or not, every racial issue we discuss is about racism in general. These things don't happen in a vacuum.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Exaggerating the problems they face- and you know better than all the women who have spoken out about it. Just a guess.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)BTW, I'm a feminist myself, bettyellen(I know, hard to believe that a cis "white" guy can be a feminist, right? 
). And I know damn well that women still face problems in society and I wholeheartedly support levelling the playing field, not just economically, but socially. Doesn't mean I have to agree with every single one of my fellows on every little thing; in fact, feminism itself has it's own divisions; for example, you've got sex-negative and sex-positive feminists.....I fall into the latter group myself.
Of course, I'm sure you'll just brush it off because you don't like my POV, but that's the truth on *that* matter.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)so you support your right to get laid through supporting a woman's right to be sexually free.
You really don't get how everything you discuss is framed through you benefiting ... Do you?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)"so you support your right to get laid through supporting a woman's right to be sexually free." Nope. I'm afraid you're wrong about me again.
TBH, I'm not one of those guys who's terribly likely to get laid anyway.....but that wasn't the point(not that that's the first point you've missed).
"You really don't get how everything you discuss is framed through you benefiting ... Do you?"
I'm sorry, but with all due respect, you're not making any logical sense right now with this.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I was hoping you would pause for a moment to consider, what others clearly see ... apparently not!
Please pass the greens. How about them Red Sox?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)sex negative feminists, LOL. What total ignorance.
Apparently he thinks that nutbag Solanas who shot Warhol 40 years ago is some sort of a leader or something? What a foolish idea.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially if you shoot of your mouth around educated people. Sheesh.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And some don't seem to understand knowledge is not to be confused with wisdom.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)about the -ism you think you are aligned with. How ignorant.
And how your support in feminism basically is guided by what you perceive as how much they are willing to do for, or appear pleasing to men. That is how you filter or frame the situation in your mind, basically through the interests of men. 1STBM is right, you're all in- for yourself.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
And how your support in feminism basically is guided by what you perceive as how much they are willing to do for, or appear pleasing to men. That is how you filter or frame the situation in your mind, basically through the interests of men.
To be truthful, you're really only saying that because I don't represent your ideal type of what a feminist should be, and not out of any legitimate concern. It's also clear from this that you don't know jack squat about myself, or where I actually stand.
1STBM is right, you're all in- for yourself.
Only in your own mind, bettyellen. Only in your own mind.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)self with ignorant assumptions from the very get go. I am not the one with a head filled with stereotypes here.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Now that's just pathetic. I don't even know where you're getting this from, but I'll just assume that you're either self-deluded in this regard or possibly trying to goad me into something.
In either case, goodbye. I know where you stand and frankly, it doesn't make you look too good.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)DU is about the most race-ignorant place I've ever seen in regards to liberalism. But, then when you get a bunch of white liberals in one place - and we make up what, 96% of the population on DU, it seems - most of the racial discourse is going to be self-congratulatory back-patting about how "I don't even see color" and "it's not race, it's class," and of course, "there's only one race; the human race!", all this pollyanna stuff from people trying to impress each other with how enlightened they are rather than actually touching the issues.
Tack that on with DU's high tolerance of racist bigotry (apparently it "doesn't count" if you're not using the most common slurs) and well... it's kind of like shouting at clouds.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You would think i had written the article myself!
Thank you for saying this, really. I was trying to find the words to sum it up, but coming from me it would be a grevious sin. I am a discontent idealist.
merrily
(45,251 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Until then, i speak. I think we shoud be open with opinions and talk things through.
merrily
(45,251 posts)that it would be better coming from a white person.
Your truth can come only from you. It was given to you for a reason. Don't stifle for any reason.
JMO.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But I honestly doubt you'll have to worry about censorship on DU.
dionysus
(26,467 posts) x 2bravenak
(34,648 posts)Thanks.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)and not to disparage joe, I think he means well... but the whole exchange just framed the issue in a way I hadn't thought of before.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)On issues i feel strongly about. Sometimes i have to make myself listen to the whole thing, even if i see flaws. It is very hard to do.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)It's just that, with no disrespect intended, this re-evalution of my prior belief systems happened to lead me in a slightly different direction than some others might have taken; for example, I used to believe in literal "white privilege" sometime before I joined DU; around that the same time, I was also a hardcore Obama critic as well. Though today, I am no longer in either category.
dionysus
(26,467 posts) bettyellen
(47,209 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I really did not think it was controversial. Go figure.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)That was before ... now racial discourse entails a white person defining what is, and is not, legitimate racism/discrimination.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Last month.
Number23
(24,544 posts)
Welcome to DU.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)...for minority voters not coming out in the midterms? Seriously? Where do you get THAT??
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I swear you guys crack me up. This is unreal. Love you all.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)...care about".
"They are going to learn the hard way. And I will not be feeling sorry for them."
"To not vote is saying you are willing to have your grand-kids die from climate change, that is how important this is"
"We fought for health care reform and to rebuild the middle class and now we have a problem getting them to get off their asses and vote??!!! Tea party has no such problem."
(r.e. not voting) "It is immature. People should look at it as adult responsibility. "
"They might as well vote repuke"
"When they can't get contraception or access abortion services or vote the next time they try, they'll be extremely sorry"
All of these are quotes from a thread that was started yesterday about younger voters not showing up for midterms. It can be found here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014791181
I believe that this OP, the one in which we're responding, is a good OP that makes good points. I also think you've made some good points in some of the subthreads of this OP. And my point in posting all of this? African Americans aren't the only group that feels aggrieved and ignored by the "liberals" in power. But it can be clearly seen from that other thread that lots of people don't have respect for that sense of injustice that's being felt in some quarters. No one was really out-and-out dumb enough to say things like that in this thread, but there was no such compunction when it came to denigrating young voters (or non-voters, as the case may be).
This thread was on my mind when I read that other thread, and I thought it made for a fascinating comparison.
thanks.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We can't talk down to people to get them to vote, if we incorporate what they want into the package, they will come. And not just for weed , there has to be other things that we can fight along with people for that fit in perfectly with our message. I think we need free community colleges. We should ask the 18-35 year group ( my group) what they want. And listen to them.There are alot more of us millinials turning 18 every day, going on to minimum wage jobs with no money to get educated and suceed. We are not going to engage them by laughing at their concerns or brushing them off.
We need to look at ourselves and see if maybe our message is the problem.
BTW, the youth and the blacks support the president. If they see us hating on him all day every day, why should they like us? People want to vote for who they like not the guy telling them that their problems are not the real problem. And if we attack who they like all the time... They sit out until he is running again. And we do not have him running again to bring people to the polls.
I find this whole thing fascinating to say the least.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)...I've never quite understood why primary and secondary education are free in this country (for the most part), but postsecondary schooling can cost into the tens of thousands per year, even at public universities. I like your idea of free community college. I don't know that it's tenable in today's political climate, but I like the idea.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)For the RWNJs, their 'pets' are the fetus and they've made a cult out of worshipping it in their own twisted way, while gleefully promoting the death of the spirit of freedom and joy (if not the body as well) for their mothers and fathers and them, when born. They long for the day when those who they shaft on a daily basis are so weak they can deliver all forms of biblical revenge on them and the planet.
The same thing goes for the Libertarian method of inspiring F.U.D. among Democrats, their prime enemy and most hated opponent. They cannot resist showing their ire. Their 'pets' are the 4A and other memes, which never did affect women and POC, as we saw in the Dred Scott decision. It took a Civil War, the 14th, 15th, 16th and 19th amendment to begin to address the injustices of centuries of American society, business and government.
On the alleged Left, an amorphous group that's hard to define due to infiltration, there are segments that find fault with Obama and blacks as they have worked their way to success in varied tiers of government work. Due to private sector discrimination, they had to go into government work and they are accused of being willing to go along with alleged authoritarian measures for survival.
Thus come cries that all government is tyranny as they don't feel part of it now Some whites reject unions, public workers and government since they can no longer thrive in that enviroment with the compeition. So they wantto privatize all things to allow them to keep prosperous therough a system of nepotism and crony capitalism. These are in all parties.
The fact that the private sector did not grant civil rights, and it took big and aggressive government, to the point of conquering a large number of states to expand on the 4A and the rest of the Bill of Rights (which only delineated behavior among the rulers of the day, white, male property owners, not women or blacks) is utterly ignored. With RW propaganda soaking into all sides, government and POC are seen as a part of a collectivist evil.
The alleged Left (as we cannot truly know who is who, and are confined to subjective, not objective definitions as we've seen it break down into tribes) is partly falling into white anarchism, of a gentler type than Libertarians and Tealibans, but none the less, does not have any interest in the struggle of POC in their daily lives. Because of the evil state that POC and woman count on to defend their rights against the rest.
This threads, like the ones on feminism, must then be relentlessly trolled:
Concern troll
A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the user claims to hold. The concern troll posts in Web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group.[38]
An example of this occurred in 2006 when Tad Furtado, a staffer for then-Congressman Charles Bass (R-NH), was caught posing as a "concerned" supporter of Bass' opponent, Democrat Paul Hodes, on several liberal New Hampshire blogs, using the pseudonyms "IndieNH" or "IndyNH". "IndyNH" expressed concern that Democrats might just be wasting their time or money on Hodes, because Bass was unbeatable.[39][40] Hodes eventually won the election.
Although the term "concern troll" originated in discussions of online behavior, it now sees increasing use to describe similar behaviors that take place offline. For example, James Wolcott of Vanity Fair accused a conservative New York Daily News columnist of "concern troll" behavior in his efforts to downplay the Mark Foley scandal. Wolcott links what he calls concern trolls to what Saul Alinsky calls "Do-Nothings", giving a long quote from Alinsky on the Do-Nothings' method and effects:
These Do-Nothings profess a commitment to social change for ideals of justice, equality, and opportunity, and then abstain from and discourage all effective action for change. They are known by their brand, 'I agree with your ends but not your means'.[41]
The Hill published an op-ed piece by Markos Moulitsas of the liberal blog Daily Kos titled "Dems: Ignore 'Concern Trolls'". The concern trolls in question were not Internet participants; they were Republicans offering public advice and warnings to the Democrats. The author defines "concern trolling" as "offering a poisoned apple in the form of advice to political opponents that, if taken, would harm the recipient".[42]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concern_trolling#Concern_troll
I've found a dearth of POC in political venues for more than one reason. The main one is poverty or work that demands virtually the entire life of th worker. Politics was once regarded as the intellectual property of the leisure class. They treat POC and women as interesing novelities and not serious thinkers.
Poverty and its creator, discrimination, as much as law (and outright intimidation such as the night riders used when law did not suit their purpose) is a highly effective way to eliminate participation of POC, and the demands of work and parenting that falls upon women also knocks them out of the game.
As to the failure to be inclusive in this meetup, I consider it the result of segregation in the lives of the individuals in general and unmet needs that are greater than what the conference was about. After the repeated affronts that POC, women and any of the 'others' like the disabled are subjected to on a regular basis IRL, in media and online boards, the 'Welcome' mat has clearly been removed.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
TBF
(32,062 posts)the mainly white latte Liberals may have taken over the democratic party.
But it you are talking about socialist/communist leftists I think we have a strong tradition historically of working class coming from all areas. The Black Panthers, for example, are a group I'd rather caucus with than anyone else.
It's not THE left, but it is the only shade of the left the rest of the party will allow on the stage. The true left, much further left, is far too frighteningly real to be trusted with the script. But just wait for the third act in America. Its coming.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Even Huey and Bobby have pretty much condemned them. They are highly anti semitic and do not represent the average voices of black America anymore than Smiley or West.
I'll stand strong with Michael Eric Dyson and Melissa Harris-Perry though. 
TBF
(32,062 posts)under the bus but I do not base my opinions on what the party currently supports because some of the ideas are idiotic. Sorry, but I also stand with Cornell.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Check out the AA Group - personally - I've put my feelings out there.
The party hasn't thrown West on the bus. Oh no - it was Young (50 and under), aware, and shell shocked black America that did that.
Including me.
TBF
(32,062 posts)I've only read Cornell's books - I don't have the perspective of being AA. So I will do as you suggest and and check out what you've written. Always willing to be persuaded
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Hes been absolutely insulting to Melissa.
Read her book - Sister Citizen.
He did what has been acceptable. And it's not anymore.
There are plenty of black men in America that cherish the voices and experiences of black women. Hell! 1Strongblackman and MrScorpio are two right here. And it's not just black women - its all women.
Read Sister Citizen and you will see what he did to her.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'm glad that they're on our side.....
former9thward
(32,013 posts)But I'm sure you are right about their character.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)former9thward
(32,013 posts)That is a statement from a foundation. In 1989 Huey was in no condition to issue statements.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Doesnt change the fact that his peers have been clear - the racist anti Semitic little fucks don't represent them - or the vast majority of black America.
I'm a black American with Jewish ancestry - close enough to have celebrated Passover at my great grandparent's home -
Left America can pick me or them - but it can't have us both.
former9thward
(32,013 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts) 
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)who has even heard of the NBPP before, let alone view them as legit. What do they have, like 3 guys in their entire organization? It seems like every time FOX talks about them, they show the same few guys standing around...
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)2008!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)The New Panthers, unfortunately(particularly referring to the New Black Panther Party), are pretty much racist supremacists, by and large. The Old Panthers want nothing to do with them, in fact.
merrily
(45,251 posts)They may be Democrats, but they are not liberals and I hate the term "neoliberals." They are conservatives who vote Democratic and say far fewer stupid things about cultural issues than Republican conservatives.
BTW, this is not an anti-rich rant. Matt Damon is a liberal in my book.
TBF
(32,062 posts)shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)whether those are charter or independent schools. DU probably isnt quite as white as the Network for Public Education either, but its probably not far off.
Part of the reason the 2012 teachers strike was modestly successful was because it affected a number of predominantly white schools in relatively affluent neighbourhoods, meaning that it attracted ire from across the board.
TBF
(32,062 posts)We are high income (also loaded up with student loans) ... and send our children to the local public schools. I certainly have my arguments with them but honestly Arne Duncan's policies have caused as much damage as George Bush's. IMO the third way is not working. Would love to see the dem party return to it's roots in labor.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)>>>I certainly have my arguments with them but honestly Arne Duncan's policies have caused as much damage as George Bush's.>>>>>
We are also high income, and also send our kids to public schools, but a lot of public school districts (including the one my kids go to) are all or almost all white.
Richardo
(38,391 posts)The astonishing defensiveness of the quoted panelist could have come from a GOP member of congress.
Paladin
(28,262 posts)....when the radicalized right is furnishing us with so many worthy targets? One panel does not a political movement make.....
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)It may be true that the left doesn't always do the best job of addressing ethnic issues. There's no real doubt about that. But that is a far cry from actual exclusion; that's a rightist thing. We don't do that.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Let's focus only on Republicans, because party trumps principle and people?
Sorry, I cannot buy into that and I don't think any Democrat should.
What's the point of being a Democrat at all, if we abandon our principles?
Some of the people who don't think Democrats should "fire upon" each other seem to have been very comfortable using harsh words about the POTUS. It's OK to "fire upon" some Democrats, but not others?
merrily
(45,251 posts)I don't know what he or she says about the President.
I think we should stick to our principles, not blind party loyalty.
Paladin
(28,262 posts)It's an entirely different thing to expend time and energy raking ourselves over the coals, when our political opponents present us with new outrages to be dealt with on a daily basis. What's the point of political principles if they're not employed against a very real threat?
merrily
(45,251 posts)What's the point of political principles if they're not employed against a very real threat?
IMO, the issue being discussed on this thread is a very real threat. Besides, I can walk and chew gum. Exploring issues within the party does not preclude focusing on Republicans.
Besides, this is a message board and a Dem one to boot. Posts here are not exactly defeating Republicans at the polls.
I always wonder about people who tell others what they should or should not be posting here
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Can that be said? You shoulda pm'd me.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Demeter
(85,373 posts)to know if the "whiteness" is intentional, a result of class (economics and time) divisions, or if it's the result of non-whites giving up on us and the system.
Some people truly do not have any extra time for this. They are oppressed by economics. It takes time and money to do anything besides survive in this economy.
The black middle class was reportedly wiped out by the bank mortgage frauds which have yet to be settled to anyone's satisfaction, meaning the banksters got away with it.
It's not enough to run Obama as a front man and expect the troops to fall in line...yet that is the entire plan.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)People have given up on the party, and it is pretty white, middle upper class and gives a shit about the working poor, at least in my town.
Now local pols realize the problem (some do) and are doing things like getting higher minimum wage on the ballot.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)It seems that a vocal few on DU haven't made that connection. Occupy sounded the alarm, and many here are quick to poo-poo their efforts. They mock anyone who uses the term "banksters." Can't do anything about Wall Street because, well, too big to fail? Because Obama?
Demeter
(85,373 posts)all part of the plan...
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)So in the example given in the OP, is there any evidence that the conference in question intentionally excluded minorities or did minorities simply choose not to participate?
"You’d think black people might have something to contribute to a discussion about that process and how it might be resisted. Yet on this exclusively white panel at this predominantly white conference, they had no voice."
Whether the lack of participation by minorities was the result of lack of access or opportunity or whether it was due to apathy has a significant bearing on where efforts to solve this problem should be focused.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... and hate myself for a while.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)
(The white-bashing on DU is getting tedious.)
Demeter
(85,373 posts)hating yourself is an indulgence the rest of us have no time for....
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But I do sometimes chafe at being dismissed as if I lose all right to comment because of my birth.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)Peace! 
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Squinch
(50,950 posts)
Unfortunately it's not very original. About 900 white guys trot it out any time someone says, "The white guys aren't the only people in the sandbox."
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)...that if my reaction is not very original, then perhaps the wording of this kind of article is not having the desire effect? I'd wager to guess that most of us white guys on the left are pretty sympathetic to the idea of diversity. But more than once I've been told I have nothing to say on the matter of racism or sexism because I am from the "oppressor class."
Squinch
(50,950 posts)I think it does have the desired effect.
Those who are serious about ending the exclusion of others from the process look at such an article and say, "This needs to be looked at." Those who are not serious say, "I'm going to go into a corner and mope because someone is suggesting it's not all about me."
And the people who are frequently told they need to pipe down in discussions of racism or sexism tend to be people who like to invalidate the experiences of those who experience racism or sexism.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)To cure the evil of the Whiteness.
How dare we breathe?
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But we're not at all exclusionary. Some people may be disappointed because things haven't always gone perfectly, and that much is understandable; however though, making the claim that People of Color are being excluded from the left is rather naive at best.....and perhaps even intellectually dishonest at the worst.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)was Black?
But I know that you must have missed the point of the article ... it's not that Black folks are being excluded in person; but rather, excluded in power and/or acceptance as valued thought contributors.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)it's not that Black folks are being excluded in person; but rather, excluded in power and/or acceptance as valued thought contributors.
And even that's not quite accurate. You've got people like Melissa Harris-Perry & Michael Dyson who have been well-received by many on the left across the ethnic spectrum. As I've admitted before, the left is not perfect. But there's no good being done in exaggerating the problem as some have.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)for you to choose which negroes are to be listened to?
Well ... so be it. Here, read these words from the acceptable one:
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/day-5-ask-mhp-your-questions
She's talking primarily about gender issues but touches on race, as well.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)BTW, this is what I'm referring to:
So your think it's welcoming ...
for you to choose which negroes are to be listened to?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm saying that, neither MHP, nor MD, speak for Black folks (they have both said on numerous occasions that they hate being seen that way), they speak for themselves, and are rarely at the grass roots conferences where Black folks feel not listened to.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And again, I do understand that the left does sometimes fall short of what we need to do. But we need to be careful and not exaggerate whatever problems DO exist.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Actually we NEED to be careful and NOT MINIMIZE whatever problems DO exist. Bigotry is hardly ever "exaggerated" except in the minds of bigots.
I have no idea why you keep digging your heels in. You might be wise to set your ego aside and listen to some of the good folks asking you to think about some of your posts on this issue.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But that isn't what I did, TBH.
I have no idea why you keep digging your heels in. You might be wise to set your ego aside and listen to some of the good folks asking you to think about some of your posts on this issue.
Well, as for me, this isn't about my personal ego. It *is*, however, an attempt(albeit perhaps not a perfect one, I'll admit) to try to set the record straight.
mstinamotorcity2
(1,451 posts)something is racist, look at the out comes!!! I think its call Disparate Impact!!! When you see Laws and Policies they usually have an intention, which leads to a result that harm so many!!
underpants
(182,819 posts)Marking for later read
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)And poorer people don't have the money to attend 'conferences', especially ones that require travel and hotel rooms, or time off from jobs with no real job security.
Until we address the wealth inequality issues that leave the average minority household with 10-20% of the wealth of the average white household, any conference that does not proactively work to find minority voices, and to pay for their travel, housing, meals, and maybe even a stipend to offset lost wages, will continue to be almost exclusively white.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)
Solly Mack
(90,769 posts)
pscot
(21,024 posts)of U,S population and are more numerous in the Southeastern states than elsewhere. It's not very realistic to expect black participation in any group beyond what those numbers would suggest; i.e. 1 in 12. The numbers would be higher in the South and in big cities and a lot lower elsewhere. It doesn't seem reasonable to charge liberals with excluding blacks, when there are very few black people in the local community. Of course that argument doesn't apply to cities like New York or Chicago.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)William H. Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution, analyzed the 2012 elections for the AP using census data on eligible voters and turnout, along with November's exit polling. He estimated total votes for Obama and Romney under a scenario where 2012 turnout rates for all racial groups matched those in 2004. Overall, 2012 voter turnout was roughly 58 percent, down from 62 percent in 2008 and 60 percent in 2004.
The analysis also used population projections to estimate the shares of eligible voters by race group through 2030. The numbers are supplemented with material from the Pew Research Center and George Mason University associate professor Michael McDonald, a leader in the field of voter turnout who separately reviewed aggregate turnout levels across states, as well as AP interviews with the Census Bureau and other experts. The bureau is scheduled to release data on voter turnout in May.
Overall, the findings represent a tipping point for blacks, who for much of America's history were disenfranchised and then effectively barred from voting until passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)When the time comes, please be sure to post data from November 2014.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Whats your point? I do not want more republicans. Ignoring likely voters does not increase yr stats.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)minorities NOT turning out during the midterms because they're not being listened to?
Really?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Why do minorities sit out? I say they have nothing to vote for. Many agree. You do not. I feel like i have more of an idea of why minorities (like me) sit out midterms. The more ideas and input you take in from your allies, the more likely they are to vote. We show up for our candidates. They knock on our doors.
I do not know why the idea as stated in the article has you all riled up. Go read it.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)so I have no idea why minorities sit out midterms, but turn out during "sexy" presidential elections. Republican-led states are trying to suppress the vote, isn't that a huge reason for minorities to flock to the polls -- always? How about immigration? Shouldn't that get minorities to the polls? Protecting the social safety net? Is that "nothing to vote for"? Womens' issues? Thank God for black women and their vote against lunatic Cuccinelli in Virginia.
Black Voters, Not the ‘Gender Gap,’ Won Virginia for McAuliffe
It's rather fascinating when a total stranger assigns emotions to another based on message board posts. Just as an FYI, I'm sitting on my ass watching Bones with a yummy avocado lime smoothie, as relaxed as can be.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Enjoy your show! If you ever get around to it, you could ask some people why they don't show up during the midterms. Whenever i ask i get the same answers. Maybe you will be better at it.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Please explain to me why "some people" don't show up during the midterms. Something else just came to mind, something from a neighboring state: disposal of fracking fluid. Guess where they want to dump it? Coastal communities with large AA populations. Isn't that something that should get voters to RUN to the polls? Environmental issues?
Ugh, The Following is on. Too much blood and gore! Off to PBS land...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)When you live like they live, the environment is low on the list of priorities. They have more immediate concerns.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)is in the double-digits. OK, so *they* don't rank toxic waste as high on the list. What about jobs?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But you have to show them that they will actually get those jobs. They lack trust. They need to believe. And they have no reason to believe anything.
Community colleges are a concern.
Childcare for those with low wages. Some cannot afford to work because they cannot afford childcare, the problem has been getting worse.
Number one problem: cannot vote/felons
Sentencing disparity is a major cause of concern for poc's and this is something that rarely gets much attention from white liberals.
The NSA is much more important apparently than those millions of people imprisoned and forced to work for pennies an hour. They call it the New Slavery. Millions of men being kept away from families for years at a time for non violent crimes, at slave wages.
Feelings of being percieved as criminals. Stop and frisk is something that happens all over the nation. They feel targeted by law enforcement. Nobody cares about it. Black liberals talk about it all the time. White liberals talk about the environment. They wanna talk about the new slavery. Whose voice gets heard?
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)(Someone had to say it. Because you know if we were talking about whites sitting out 2010, +/- 30 DUers would be hammering away relentlessly. Hell, they'll still do it, even though they don't have the numbers on their side.)
OK.
This has turned into a "white liberal" v. "black liberal" exercise, and I reject the division.
Lack of jobs, astronomical college tuitions, and prohibitively expensive childcare are issues that affect poor whites as well as poor minorities. Who consistently votes, and who doesn't? It also affects those barely hanging on to the middle class. Who votes, and who doesn't?
Legalization ties into sentencing disparity. (I imagine at this point someone will chime in about how all those white libertarian stoners don't care about blacks going to jail.) The Democratic Party should be ALL OVER weed: economic growth, tax revenue, reduced crime, sentencing disparity.
Why should anyone be condemned for taking an interest in the NSA and civil liberties? Many DUers are miffed ONLY because it happened on Obama's watch. So let's put that topic aside, it's not something that can be discussed rationally on DU, what with childish name-calling (Fast Eddie, GG, Putinistas, etc.).
Why isn't the environment considered important, especially when something like toxic fracking fluid may be dumped in areas with high AA populations? Are "black liberals" not discussing this issue? Food deserts are another issue that affect many minorities, and I see people of all colors taking up the cause.
You suggest that only white liberals are being heard. Heard by whom? How much influence do you really think liberals, regardless of skin color, wield in this country? I no longer have cable, but Rev. Al and MHP have popular shows, no? (There are more hosts "of color," but in general, cable personalities don't interest me.) I'm fortunate to live near a large city with access to WPFW and "urban radio." And anyone with an internet connection can seek out information just as I can.
And why is the burden on liberals, white or black? Where the hell is the big tent DEMOCRATIC PARTY on these issues?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Black females.
Of course we care about the environment. But not as much as immediate survival.
The thing about Rev Al. Its like when we talk about poverty in the black community and the some genius just has to point out the Beyonce or Oprah has money. Two people out of millions.
The democratic party should be all over injustice. They are too busy for that.
RobinA
(9,893 posts)about this, I can only react by thinking how glad I am that female voters don't take such a narrow view of what's worth turning out for.
Vote or don't vote, but not voting will never get your issue heard. It's nobody's job but your own (whoever you are) to make your issue count. Ask the AARP.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You don't vote. If your voting right have been taken away from you for a non violent crime and your legislators do not give a fuck, you CANT vote.
If you are very poor time is money, and if the politician do not give a fuck about the fact that you are making 7 bucks an hour and being wage robbed by your boss you do not vote.
And if white liberals just get mad at you for not caring about THEIR pet issues, while they ignore the fact that we have new slavery going on in the community, why should you vote. You get the same results from either party. Nobody owes a art their votes, you have to as and earn it.
Btw, i am female and i always vote. I am telling you why many do not show up to midterms. Blaming the voter will not get them to the polls.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Did you really just type that? The pet issues, in your mind, being pot and the NSA? Not income inequality, Wall Street abuses, womens' rights, healthcare/Medicaid expansion, voter suppression, fracking, destruction of public schools, protection of the social safety net... Christ, the list is endless. And guess what? They ALL have an impact on the "black community."
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Tell them that and then laugh in their face for giving an opinion that you asked for, like your are doing now.
Most are concerned more about profiling, discrimination, stop and frisk, stand your ground and new slavery, wage theft, and systematic abuses. Things that can kill you quickly. You think it funny.
I am sure that attitude will have people rushing to the polls.
We are tired of racism in America being overlooked and pushed off to the side until later. We want and deserve help specifically geared towards our and the latino communities. Because we never get the full benefits from the programs that are supposed to help us. We have been the poor since we got here. Time for a little parity. If we cant get parity, no point in doing anything at all. The majority always gets more of the benefits. Most of them. We get left behind. I'm done. Have a good day.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)was at the ridiculous angry liberals/pet issues assertion. But do go on.
Actually, don't.
We're done.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You would be. have a nice day.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Voluntering in NJ for the Buono campaign is that of - it can't be done. He's too big to beat (Christie).
Add in zero outrage other than from solid Dems in NJ at the completely unnecessary two elections back to back and it was an uphill battle. Most folks didn't understand that when states went direct for electing their Senators New Jersey had a plan to offset costs dating back to 1924.
And now - that jerk is fodder for laughter while nothing moves forward here in state.
It's not funny - nothing is getting done because only a handful could see how worthless Christie was prior to the election in November.
Now on back to back elections - how do I tell a single black mother scraping by in Newark and hustling on public transportation to do that twice in a few weeks. I don't care what the law says - hotel maids don't make enough to "take time off" to vote.
I think you've had a "glimpse" of my "lifestyle". I've never known a hungry, cold, or home in jeopardy day in my life - but GET that it's tough. Give those suffering a reason - and they will make it happen. Note: talking about bankers and tax inequality doesn't do it. Safe, affordable housing and wages do.
And some of the folks in Newark I spoke with could have cared less about people they perceived in the suburbs losing teir homes to their own greed. <--- the words of one elderly black gentleman - not mine.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They call them WPP's. It is hard to tell these people that they should care about the nsa or legalizing weed when number 1- they are used to being under suspicion, i have been told to my face about the nsa that now white people finally know how we feel. They do not care. They assume that their own phones are tapped by law enforcement just to try to trap them in some way. Number 2- they cannot afford to smoke weed all day. They have to work and cook and care for families. Then sleep. Most do not smoke at all.
Not to mention the Obama hate and the democrats 'distancing themselves'. The dissappointment over that has many feeling like they do not care anymore. I like to read op's out loud to people so they can hear what is being discussed. When i tell them it is democrats writing these things they usually are quite surprised that it is not fox.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Yeah - Snorty laugh - NSA - welcome to driving or shopping while black. The great equalizer was the NSA!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I usually laugh, too.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Just curious, what do you hope to gain by doing that?
And why are people so influenced by what a total stranger posts to a message board?
If someone I like/respect/admire is being attacked, I'm inclined to circle the wagons, not be disappointed and stop caring.
Legalization is more than smoking weed all day -- seriously, aren't we past the Cheech & Chong references?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I read out loud to people who cannot read well on their own. Functional illiteracy is a problem with some folks. People i know respect my opinion about politics. So i give it. When they want to know what going on out there in the world of politics, they call me up and we skype. People love when i read to them. I have a soothing voice.
Do you have something real to say?
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)That will get us to the polls.
And make sure we CAN vote. And it's not just a southern issue - PA and Ohio have been nail biters for those of us who are black and involved in GOTV efforts.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)immigration, the environment, womens' issues...
Congressional Black Caucus
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Bravo/Brava! 
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Those are hugely important issues. I'm still not understanding why minorities flock to the polls during "sexy" presidential elections, but sit out during the midterms. And with Republicans gunning for Obamacare, I would think turnout would be high in November 2014, but what the hell do I know.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Explained it very well above.
Come canvas with me in a place like Newark or Camden and you will see. Make sure to dress casually and we are parking my husband's 13 year old Yukon. I'm black so I can get these folks to answer the door. You will see the reality on the ground.
Wait - just wait until you speak to the elderly poor black folks - especially those from the tail end if the Great Migration. You are going to hear - they ain't dancin' with the ones who brung 'Em.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)"I'm black so I can get these folks to answer the door."
The city I have gone door-to-door in numerous times, seeing many hundreds of people, is predominantly a minority city. About 1/3 of the school students are white; the rest are African American and Hispanic. They ALL open their doors to me, and I'm white.
I registered literally hundreds of people pre-Obama, and voter turnout was less than 15% during the mid-terms, and not much better when Kerry ran.
But then, most of the people I registered could not name one single solitary political party. They literally were so completely disconnected, they had no idea of anything about voting or politics. They didn't have any idea who controls what or how. So even though my first response was shock and disappointment at the invisible turnout, really, it made sense, because they all had no information whatsoever and no concept of the power available to them through democracy. Their lives were composed of just trying to go through one day to the next, period. A huge percentage of our city residents are permanently unemployed. There are no jobs here. So time wasn't a factor. Neither is getting to the polls, as we have polls every few blocks it seems.
The Obama election changed a good deal of that. People felt represented, felt connected, and our turn out was amazing (sorry I forget the numbers now). I can only hope that this is the beginning of a long-term impact, where the people I spoke to begin to participate more, to be aware, to feel empowered, to try to be a part of the process. There are some good signs:
http://www.ydr.com/ci_13707603
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)It is what it is. Go into Camden or Newark NJ - You do know about Camden don't you? It's not my fault, it's not your fault. But it just is.
And the reality is - on the flip side - due to my appearance (being bi-racial) doors have opened for me with caucasians -
I'm sorry - but it's true. But colorism should be saved for another thread.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Blacks/minorities voted overwhelmingly for Obama in 2008. Something I hear REPEATEDLY on DU is that he needs a Democratic congress to advance his policies. Did black/minorities not see the importance of that in 2010? And wasn't black/minority turnout down in 2012? What do you think turnout will be like in 2014, especially with Republicans (still) wishing to repeal Obamacare?
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)You've had an entire back and forth with bravenak - if you don't understand that - then I can't waste anymore of my time. I.E. You can't hear her - why would you 'hear' me?
You mean well - but my husband is a man from Calabria (southern mountain region of Italy) - he has a saying -
"The blind man says - one day we will see. "
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)and why blacks/minorities didn't see the need to give Obama a Democratic congress in 2010. I hope we do better in 2014.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)You just didn't like what I was giving you. And that's okay.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)it's still perplexing as to why blacks/minorities didn't run to the polls in 2010 like they did in 2008 for the sexy presidential election. He needs a Democratic majority. He'll turn super-progressive in his second term, right? GOTV!
Can't wait for November 2014!
RobinA
(9,893 posts)People of color were not allowed on this panel? I'm a while liberal, should I just curl up and do nothing? Or, when I make points and contribute to social justice causes should specifically make the point that I speak only of social justice for white people so as not to take voice away from people of color?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)a GREAT blog titled, Children Are More Than Test Scores.
And look at this article titled: What if? What if the education reformers had to send their children to public school?
What if only elected officials who send their children to public schools were allowed to vote on education issues?
What if only Ed Reformers who send their children to public schools could talk about education reform?
What if only education policy makers who send their children to public schools could be appointed Commissioners of Education?
What if Ed Reformers had to be public school graduates themselves?
Something makes me think things would be different.
if that were the case, then the issues we would be talking about now would be:
Equity,
Class sizes,
An army of reading and math tutors,
More art teachers,
More music teachers,
More school field trips,
More after school programs,
More play time for young children,
Inquiry,
Innovative, creative, imaginative Saturday and summer school programs,
Our school would stay open in the evenings for family activities, and adult education program,
If only these Public School Education Reformers had public schools education.
Proud public school graduate, and the parent of a public school graduate,
Jesse The Walking Man Turner
http://childrenaremorethantestscores.blogspot.com/2014/04/what-if-what-if-ed-reformers-had-to.html
The blogger in this blog is this guy:
https://www.blogger.com/profile/02556420250629971130
Squinch
(50,950 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)it. It really is a wonderful blog this man has. Thank you to the OP for posting, and allowing me to run into the blog too.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)So much as who happened to be active at this particular convention; in other words, a coincidence.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Here we have a Black person telling why Black people don't engage in these campaigns ... Because we are not listened to by white folks attending/running these campaigns ... and what is the response here (by white folks)? To list the many, many other reasons that Black folks might not be engaging in these campaigns!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I see this discussion needs to be had. Midterms are going to keep being close calls when they shouldn't. I hate stating my issue and having someone tell me thats not really what i'm concerned about, then proceed to tell me my REAL problem. Which is always me.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Given some of the things you've written here, I'm not sure if people here on DU could be blamed for responding in that matter.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Just ... Wow!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But, btw, I'll be honest and admit that I've made my own mistakes in that regard, so I'm not perfect either. Take that as you may.....
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Running around GD playing this kiddy nonsense "I've got a secret but I won't tell yooooouuu" and gossiping about people in front of them and dragging that silliness into a bunch of other threads. I don't know what the deal is, but the negative reactions you're getting are pretty justifiable.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Now, care to comment on the subject at hand, which is why Black folks don't engage much in campaigns run by white liberals ... the Black writer of the piece suggests it's because Blacks do not feel listened to and are told what the real problem(s) is/are ... the DU respondents beg to differ, i.e., not listening; but rather, telling us what the real problem(s) is/are.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Holy shit. 
This place is just fucking surreal.
RobinA
(9,893 posts)at these things, white or black, feel listened to. The "I'm not going to play because nobody listens to me" crowd, and there are ALL colors in that crowd, need to get over themselves. I see this dynamic at my job. Person goes to a meeting, makes a comment, nobody pays any attention, next meeting person announces they aren't coming because no one ever listens to them.
Well if you weren't listened to when you were AT the meeting, how do you expect to be listened to when you aren't. The first step to being heard is to show up. Most of us with a point to make feel ignored most of the time. You aren't doing anything for your constituency by sulking about not being listened to. And believe me, I love a good sulk. But it ain't helping, so get back out there.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Make that "unlistened to" person a Systems Operator and the meeting an inquiry as to what is wrong with the system (or how the System can be improved) ... and we are approaching what this is about.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And, as I've said, sometimes we do fall short of addressing all the right issues sometimes. But I agree 100%: just sulking around and complaining about being "excluded", by anyone over any subject, whether it be financial reform, climate change, etc., isn't helping anyone. To be heard, one must show themselves, and as much as possible, too. That's part of how meaningful change happens.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You do not have to talk to me at all. You can pretend that i and this problem do not exist and live in a bubble. I do not mind. This is a problem. Obviously i am not the only one to notice, note the above article, not written by me btw.
For the record, you responded to me, not the other way around so i have no idea why you so mad.
It is obvious that you have something 'very important' to say. Why don't you just ho ahead and get it off your chest and move on.
I will do a google and send you some links to back up my case, if needed.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Mainly because this kind of thing hasn't been helpful.....very much like how climate doomers haven't helped the pro-environmental movement with their brand of frankly subjective discontent.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Because i am the one who feel like i am excluded. You are not excluded, therefore to you it is not helpful. I think my problems are your problems and vice versa. Therein lies the problem. You do not seem to agree that if this is a problem for me, it also concerns you. Do you get it now? Ignore others concerns and they will no longer trust you to care about their issues. They will stay home. Life sucks for them anyway. You want people to show up at the polls? Listen to them and care about them. If you notice you have an all white panel, find out why and change it quickly. Do not resemble the tea party in any way. Never tell others what they should think or percieve the world, change their perceptions by action.
That little thing you did about my personality earlier is exactly what i'm talking about.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)DU may just need to hear these things so as to not live in a self imposed bubble like the tea party.
You are not always a pleasure to read either. Is there a personality contest i was not aware of? Should i have to be brown nosing to have an opinion? On race issues? Give me a break!
If you think i feel hurt that people get upset when discussing race you have me wrong. I get amused.
I think you are upset about something that has nothing to do with this thread, i bid you good day, sir.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Like everyone who says they want to be "listened to", what you actually mean is that you want to be "agreed with".
And, obviously, if you say the problem is people not agreeing with you, then anyone who disagrees with you is just providing more evidence that you are right.
It's wholly circular and utterly inescapable.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)is it unreasonable for my answer to trump your suppositional answer?
It is escapable ... just accept my answer as my lived truth
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)By all means present yourself as a data point.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)my lived experience, serves as an anecdotal data point, that is devalued so as to equal to your (in the generic sense) vicarious observational experience, as an anecdotal data point?
I agree that my experience is a only a data point, indicative of only my experience; but I cannot agree that it is of no more value than your (in the generic sense) observation.
It is that devaluation that creates/gives rise to the "Not listening" sentiment of Black folks.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)As, indeed, is a single all-white panel cited in the article linked to in the OP.
"Data good, anecdote bad" is a cause I'm possibly over-fanatical about, but I do think it's a very important maxim to keep in mind.
I think that the OP is the Wrong Way (TM) to make a case about race relations in America, and the Right Way (TM) is to draw attention to, for example, http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=124232
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)let's publicize it; but let's not look into possible reasons for the racial (political) divide.
I, in all my statistically insignificant self, know the divide ... I live it negative effects, daily. Nothing will change until you (the dominant group) recognize my experience as valid and true, but further, recognize that as the victim of discrimination, my experience holds MORE weight than your, vicarious observations.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And this isn't to say that anyone's personal experiences are invalid, not at all. But as I've tried to point out, anecdotes, by themselves, don't always lead to the most informed opinions; I can attest to that myself.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)If I could rec this comment, I certainly would.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)panels and here is a link to a photo gallery of the conference.
http://www.networkforpubliceducation.org/2014/03/npe-2014-national-conference-photo-gallery/
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)I feel that ANYTHING I might say with regard to racism issues - as a Caucasian person - is going to be shot down, because how could I possibly understand.
So I won't say anything.
Carry on.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)Now here's a couple more things you can do:
1. Read what they are saying. School your mind to admit the possibility that their impressions about their experiences are more accurate than your or my impressions because we are people who have never experienced endemic racism.
2. You state that you feel you are being shut out of a conversation. What you are being told in this thread, and what can easily be documented, is that people of color are shut out of conversations in every corner of their lives. You are being shut out of a conversation on a message board. This is pretty insignificant in the scheme of things, and yet clearly you are bothered by it. They are shut out of conversations that have high stakes, like lifetime income, safety of their children, equality of opportunity, equality under the law. Try and wrap your head around that.
Once you do those things, I am sure you will have plenty of very valuable things to say.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Excellent, and spot on, remarks!
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Good luck with that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)More like do not need them to do everything. We can do stuff too. See? Like a team.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I am sure you have this issue all figure out. Did you not bother to read the article? This discussion is what it is speaking of.
merrily
(45,251 posts)whites grasp the issue better than African Americans and whites will magnanimously take up the white man's burden and fix it.
IOW, white arrogance.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Not according to the pics from the Network for Public Education's 2014 National Conference:
http://www.networkforpubliceducation.org/#jp-carousel-2842
The author protests too much. And makes a ridiculous assumption that activists are born "wealthy."
I'm white, wasn't born wealthy, attended public schools, and consider myself *somewhat* of an activist. I pay taxes and I vote. I do get a say in the matter, and if you consider that white arrogance, so be it.
merrily
(45,251 posts)We will tell you if you African Americans have a problem with us or not. And, if there is a problem, we will define it for you. And, then we will fix it for you.
Yes, I consider that arrogance.
BTW, paying taxes is simply not breaking the law and voting is the least any American can do. Your description of activism is so not activism.
I was born quite poor and attended one of the most pathetic public schools in the state. That mistake in the article that you seem to have taken personally really has nothing to do with the posts on this thread; and, in any case, should not make you refuse to look at the issue from someone else's perspective.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)And why have you made the assumption that my idea of activism is *only* paying taxes and voting? I could list how I am involved, but don't need to justify my actions to you, or anyone.
Again, with the accusations of "taken personally." Bizarre. Not riled up, not upset... sitting this a.m. at the kitchen table with a hot chai, classical music, and looking out at my gorgeous azaleas.
In case you hadn't noticed, I've asked repeatedly as to why minorities sit out the midterms. So screw the nonsense about refusing to look at issues from someone else's perspective. Seriously.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)That mistake in the article that you seem to have taken personally really has nothing to do with the posts on this thread; and, in any case, should not make you refuse to look at the issue from someone else's perspective.
I dunno about the other person, but I myself didn't take the OP personally. I did, however, have some legitimate concerns & rebuttals, some of which you may have already seen.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)This place gets more bizarre by the day.
Number23
(24,544 posts)something like this will jump out of the sidelines and punch me in the side of the head.
Is this place for real? What the hell is going on around here with some of these people??! Do they TRULY not care or understand how they sound to posters of color? Are their fragile egos TRULY more important than respecting other people?
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)There are more than a few WTeverlovingF moments.
I mean how many variations of STFU can there possibly be? The sheer arrogance of some of these folks just blows my mind.
Post #78, truly WTF???
Number23
(24,544 posts)I've never seen anyone be so blatant. And I'm sure it's a coincidence that person is one of the Fabulous Four that I demand at every single solitary opportunity given to put me on ignore.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)People don't want other people 'taking' over and doing it (whatever has been decided "it" is) for them. Most people want to direct the course of their future themselves ... welcoming help and support, but not yielding to what has been decided for them.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)Good luck with that.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)But according to some in this thread, minority mid-term turnout is low because of white liberals. Who knew?!
The article referenced in the OP is bunk. From visiting the organization's website, it's clear minorities had a voice, contrary to what the author asserts. And it's idiotic for the author to assume "white activists" were born wealthy.
I'm a white female liberal and believe that all of our contributions are valuable, and reject the "black liberal" v. "white liberal" divide offered up in this thread.
Can't we all just get along?
Squinch
(50,950 posts)
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)along with anti-white sentiment I sense from some on DU. I'm sick of it.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)But don't expect silence from others.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)decide things and that those people of color better be nice or they won't be getting any help from the "lily-whites." I'll expect that because there are always a few in every crowd who will spew such nonsense.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Minority voices were not excluded, and not all of those pesky white activists were born wealthy.
And if my lily-white help isn't needed, fine. I can always find things to do with my time and money. It's that simple.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)that it isn't all about you.
I'll be keeping my lily white ass in the fight, because I understand that when a person of color is saying that their voices are not being heard, it isn't a personal insult to me. It IS something that I need to listen to because it concerns my respected allies who are important to my cause.
But I guess we are all different.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)The article is bullshit.
But if their voices were excluded, then, yes, that is a huge problem that needs to be remedied.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)You live in the world. You know for a fact that their voices have routinely been excluded. And you are arguing with someone who is pointing out that obvious fact because you feel there are mistakes in the article.
What's the point of that? The OP was to point out a situation we all know exists. You know it exists and I know it exists. So does everyone else in this thread who is saying, "You think you are experiencing racism, but I know better because I read a lot."
It's a big pile of absurdity.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,320 posts)The Congressional Black Caucus has 43 members - 40 representatives in the House, 2 non-voting delegates, and 1 Senator. The House representatives are 19.9% of the Democratic total. The 2012 presidential exit polls (if congressional exit polls are available, let me know) say 13% of voters were black, who went 93% for Obama - 12.1% of all voters, or 23.7% of all Obama voters (he got 51% total). So a slight under-representation there, but not huge.
The Congressional Hispanic Caucus has 27 Democratic members - 24 Reps, 2 delegates, and 1 Senator - reps are 11.9% of the Dem total. 71% of Hispanics voted for Obama, and 10% of all voters were Hispanic, so 7.1% of all voters were Hispanics for Obama, or 13.9% of his vote. Again, a slight under-representation.
Both demographics are way under-represented in the Senate, of course. But at the House level, it's pretty representative - on the left.
merrily
(45,251 posts)for them. That was why it was so important to get minorities, esp. in the South registered to vote in the 60s and why Acorn worked hard registering minority and white poor, including in Chicago. So they could help elect more African Americans, etc. Including state senator Barack Obama.
ETA: The difference between the house and senate is, IMO, evidence of some ghettoization, even in blue states. Also, the difference between the house and Senate is also evidence that something prevents African Americans from statewide office. What is it? Do African Americans try for those offices? If so, what prevents the win?
Perhaps the bluest state is Massachusetts. We got our first African American governor two years before Obama was elected Pres. (Axelrod was 2006 campaign manager for our Gov.)
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)We all will jump on the ignorance and plain idiocy of old rich white bigots spewing their particular brand of stupidity. Its obvious, it is easy to decry (who can defend those levels of evil and stupidity?).
"We" (the left, DU ...) have a far more difficult time dealing with the racism that exists among us ... after all we would NEVER say those things (no, we really wouldn't), we would never "not hire" someone based on their race .... we voted for Barrack Obama, dammit!
Yet, "we" have great difficulty acknowledging the more subtle forms of racism ... "we" know what racism is and we certainly don't need people experiencing it, to tell us what it is. At some point, "we" need to STFU and just listen.
A while back there was what I (shudder) think of as the "fried chicken thread" ... seriously, we had way too many posters "explaining" that sometimes "fried chicken and watermelon" are just fried chicken and watermelon ... it did not matter how many black members tried to explain how they felt and what this meant to them .... it came down to many (essentially) proclaiming "I like fried chicken and I am not a racist." At some point "we" really just need to shut up and listen
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)"STFU and Listen? ... Why that would mean I have to give up the power and I didn't get involved in the movement to be dictated to!"
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts).... but every now and again, people can act and react in amazingly wonderful ways.
Its not "gonna" happen today or tomorrow, not next week or even next year ... but I am holding out hope for "one day"
Our survival as a species depends on it
merrily
(45,251 posts)fried chicken and watermelon. But not when a private school in California wine country thinks serving that meal is the way to celebrate Black History Month. The info in that last sentence was the key.
What was funny about that thread: The students and parents objected and the school apologized.
But "liberals" at DU were offended anyway.
Similar to a thread going on right now. A Hispanic student objected to a campus Greek letter society's Cinco de Mayo party plans. The society apologized and cancelled the event, saying it would plan another event and put that on soon. But, a healthy number of DUers on the thread were offended anyway.
Unreal.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)It is c-r-a-z-y
boston bean
(36,221 posts)the diminishment of the struggle, the fragile ego's when the most mildest criticism is given, the denial, the repetitious bullshit being spewed, the white mans view is more valid, they know better. It is they who are discriminated against when discrimination of minorities is pointed out, why would anyone bring race into it, when someone does they are the ones who are racist....
It's the same damned thing over and over, and truly a real problem here. I suggest to anyone reading this post, you aren't reading or comprehending what these folks are saying, you aren't reading the same DU that I am.
JI7
(89,250 posts)and it wasn't justa bout the school but multiple people on DU started threads telling black people they were wrong to be offended by it. and how they wont stop eating fried chicken and other stupid shit.
merrily
(45,251 posts)I stayed up all night to debate with one poster who was defending the watermelon menu because he was in India and there is a significant time difference. By the end, he said I had convinced him.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024866734#post244
If you are not saying that I said it was okay, I apologize for misunderstanding your post. If you are saying it, you misread my post.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts) Journal!merrily
(45,251 posts)That is the only the one that I saw first and the one on which I participated most.
Some I saw later were worse.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)That's when I started looking at DU with a fish eye lens - with caution during the Martin Trial - but topsy turvy after all of those. I was looking for it this weekend and couldn't find it.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)However, though, I doubt anyone on this site was actually defending this cretin. Got any links for that?
boston bean
(36,221 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Nobody is denying that the left isn't perfect; occasional misconceptions do happen even with the most egalitarian liberals(yes, myself included)
But, regardless, there's also no denying that *actual* racism, open or covert, really isn't a real problem on the left, with the exception of perhaps a very small fringe(primarily a few radical-left anti-Semites). And claiming otherwise is, unfortunately, basically the equivalent of the "both sides are just as bad" fallacy; certainly damn close to it, anyway. We can't afford to make fuckups like that especially with an important election on the horizon.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)Do continue to go on and on. I love to see you telling DU members who are people of color how they are wrong in thinking that there is racism on the left and they don't get it if they disagree with your opinions about racism.
Really, do continue.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)certain individuals are so stuck on a certain mindset that they're willing to be totally dismissive of someone just because they disagree with part or the whole of, their opinion.
I love to see you telling DU members who are people of color how they are wrong in thinking that there is racism on the left and they don't get it if they disagree with your opinions about racism.
And is there really a problem with racism on the left? Is there? Please proceed, governor.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)
Squinch
(50,950 posts)this liberal website, isn't it?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)if they tried.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Perhaps the first hand experience of more African Americans, Latina/os, folk from the middle east, Asians etc can help me get it. i think it is very important for those that wish to do so, do so to help others glean a better understanding.
Please share
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)you have to listen to them, and you have to give them some control over what's going to be done
America has many different cultures, reflecting the different histories of different groups here, and nobody can understand by pure thought how history shaped the thinking and the modes of expression of someone in a different group, without making a considerable effort, over an extended period of time, to listen to others
There's no shortage of minority leftists -- but they may express themselves differently, and they may have different priorities, than people raised in the white middle-class or upper middle-class
It's often more productive to discuss history than philosophy -- because history can teach us something about what happened, and what people thought happened, whereas philosophy can only help us discover ways in which our own ideas are unclear. So perhaps many people would benefit more by learning about Asa Philip Randolph, Bayard Rustin, or Edgar Daniel Nixon, than would benefit from an abstract philosophical panel discussion
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)TBH, it is indeed true that everyone has different experiences, and different priorities, etc.
It's often more productive to discuss history than philosophy -- because history can teach us something about what happened, and what people thought happened, whereas philosophy can only help us discover ways in which our own ideas are unclear. So perhaps many people would benefit more by learning about Asa Philip Randolph, Bayard Rustin, or Edgar Daniel Nixon, than would benefit from an abstract philosophical panel discussion
I can agree with that. And I'd add people such as Ida B. Wells, Sojourner Truth, Ruben Salazar(Chicano journalist who blew the whistle on discrimination against Mexican-Americans in the LA County Sheriff's Department), etc. to that.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Are we now defining racism for people of color? Oh wait, I think we've been doing that for a while.
Sigh.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts) gollygee
(22,336 posts)about every single post of yours.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)It's so completely crazy that it's getting to the funny stage. Like DU's own version of "Springtime for Hitler" on ice.
That's just how it sounds!
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)The right is a force to be reckoned with. Republicans quake in their boots at the idea of a primary opponent from the right. Limbaugh is so powerful that few sitting members of Congress and the House will criticize him.
Centrist independents are courted by both sides.
The left, is reviled.
What power structure is comparable on the left side? Real socialists have no power in this country. Socialist is most often a label applied to a centrist Democrat.
I do agree that there is a racial component in everything. We live in a nation where mostly Western European White men have ruled from the beginning. The system has been slow to change.
Godhumor
(6,437 posts)
ismnotwasm
(41,984 posts)"Whiteness is everywhere in U.S. culture, but it's very hard to see. As Richard Dyer suggests. White power secures it's dominance by seeming to be not about anything in particular.
(Italics mine)
As the unmarked category against which difference is constructed, whiteness never has to speak it's name, never has to acknowledge it's role as an organizing principle in social and cultural regulations. To identify, analyze, and oppose the destructive consequences of whiteness, we need what Walter Benjamin called "presence of mind." Benjamin wrote that people visit fortune tellers less out of a desire to know the future than out of fear of not noticing some important aspect of the present. "Presence of mind," he suggested, "is an abstract of he future, and precise awareness of the presence more decisive than foreknowledge of the most distant events."
In U.S. society at this time, precise awareness of the present moment requires an understanding of the existence and the destructive consequences of the possessive investment in whiteness that surreptitiously shapes so much of our public and private lives."...
This is from a class I took well over ten years ago, from a book I kept and use for reference still, called "The Meaning of Difference" American Construction of Race, Sex and Gender, Social Class and Sexual Orientation" by Karen E. Rosenblum and Toni-Michelle C. Travis
That fact that it remains completely relevant--I'm sure there are new editions, is both intriguing and so very, very sad.
The initial quote stays with me always (whiteness) "as the unmarked category against which difference is constructed."
The power and truth of that quote has never left me, and I hope it helped me to listen, and from listening, learning to hear, and from hearing to learn, from learning to right action; to hopefully lessen the impact of whiteness.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Or possibly lack of success in being proactive--can't tell from the article.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Now ask the next question(s): "Why would there have been a failure to be proactive? Could it be that the organizers did/do not value the input of those 'others'?"
And, "If there was/is a lack of success in being proactive, could it be that the target of the proaction has/continue to experience a devaluation/ignoring of their input?"
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Sorry if it seems that I'm repeating myself a little too much here(believe me, though, I've had to deal with a fair amount crap on here, as you can probably see). But in essence, I agree 100%.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I purposefully chose to move to a part of my region where the minority representation is really good.
My congressman is African American
My state legislator is African American
My state senator is African American
The Secretary of State of my state is Hispanic
My mayor is white but has a multiracial family.
If you haven't already guessed, I live in Harlem. Political life in this part of the city and political groups have majority African American participation. But it is true that in other parts of the country, that hasn't always been the case. The Democratic Party in particular does a fairly good job, having a Black Caucus that works to ensure minority representation in local and state Democratic Executive Committees.
But other liberal groups who don't have a caucus group like that constantly looking over their shoulders can forget that they need to stress that kind of inclusion all the time or it simply won't happen.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)would make a very interesting interview, perhaps on this very subject, both about the AlterNet article, reactions to it, and the topic the article seeks to address. Or about educational matters in general.
He has a blog called Cloaking Inequality and his contact information is on the CV page of that blog....
http://cloakinginequity.com/
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts) 1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But first, liberals (I don't give a damn about conservatives) must accept that bodies do not equal inclusion, when the input of those "included" is devalued, in order to maintain the power dynamic status quo.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And I think that despite our failures in sometimes not doing enough to address important issues, we *are* trying.
(P.S., Bill de Blasio is awesome. I wish there were more mayors like him.)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Thank you so much. It needs to be stressed is the point.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)how were people selected to be on the panel? I checked out their website, and couldn't find the information there, either.
Who was it that decided to exclude (or, looking at the photos, perhaps a better word is 'restrict') inclusion on the panel
of more African Americans?
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)really disturbing - and it's proving the OP. 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It's all about maintaining the status quo, for one's self; while working for the betterment of others. People can't have it both ways, as your (in the generic sense) status-quo IS my subjugation.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I hate to be blunt, but I'm afraid it's kinda obvious that you really haven't been paying much attention to what's actually going on.
warrprayer
(4,734 posts)by race baiting was a cointelpro tactic.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Nothing to see here. Racism in america? Never!!!
Throd
(7,208 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I sho do 'pprectate it.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)One does have to wonder if some CoIntelPro tactics may indeed being used by the right.....including that of the indirect manipulation of people who don't realize they're being played.
warrprayer
(4,734 posts)"Under COINTELPRO, the bureau also targeted actress Jean Seberg for having made a donation to the Black Panther Party. The fragile actress ultimately committed suicide after a gossip nugget based on a FBI wiretap was leaked to the L.A. Times and published. The item, suggesting that the father of the baby she was carrying was a Black Panther rather than her French writer-husband, turned out to be wrong."
http://www.oilempire.us/cointelpro.html
They tried to blackmail MLK into commiting sucide.
"Six days after the discovery of Seberg's body, the FBI released documents under FOIA admitting the defamation of Seberg,[43][44] while making statements attempting to distance themselves from practices of the Hoover era. The FBI's campaign against Seberg was further explored at this time by Time magazine in a front page article, "The FBI vs. Jean Seberg".[45]
Media attention surrounding the abuse Seberg had undergone at FBI hands led to examination of the case by the United States Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, a.k.a. "the Church Committee", which noted that notwithstanding FBI claims of reform, that, "COINTELPRO activities may continue today under the rubric of investigation".[46][47]
"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Seberg
Bastards. 
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Well, not when it was on--I was born 2 years after she died--but thru the archives maintained by fans & friends of hers over the years. And darn, was that show an eye opener!
warrprayer
(4,734 posts)the whole Church committee thing happened when I was 17. 1974 was a most interesting year.
Squinch
(50,950 posts)racism because some CoIntelPro project from the right is playing them? Because they are so easily manipulated that they really don't understand what it is they are experiencing?
You are a real piece of work.
The only thing I can hope is that when you get some more experience of the world, you will look back on these comments and burn with embarrassment.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Honestly, give me a fucking break. In fact, this wasn't even about racism in general so I don't know where you could have possibly gotten that from anyway.
Peregrine Took
(7,414 posts)was constantly used against them in an attempt to divide them. The movement was open to all who cared to participate.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)is that true grassroots includes and recognizes every individual - regardless of color or age or abilities - as someone who has a voice AND something worthy to contribute to one's community.
this is the training president obama and mrs. obama received working in community in chicago. it is training which comes straight out of northwestern university's Asset Based Community Development (ABCD) program from the 80's and 90's to the early 2000's.
the ABCD model really works and was the basis for the many community development block grants which spread across the country.
it was intentionally very easy to apply for community block grants for trainings and work with grassroots communities so that community group leaders could apply. the majority of community group leaders are primarily volunteers or hold other full time jobs - and were, for example, working with other community volunteers to develop safer neighborhoods or ways to build community.
unfortunately, as seen in austin, SOME people saw these grants as opportunities for easy money fit for use only by persons in authority or "the good ol' boys and girls". these people will never "get it" about asset based community development. they do not care to because they cannot abide by grassroots folks having power or self directing their communities to a better life.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think you might be on to something as far as what went wrong in this situation and how we can come together and find solutions to problems like this.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)there are many examples of this type of grassroots community development in rural, inner city, hmong, afghani, american indian, migrant, african american, poor and wealthy, old & young, etc.
i was fortunate to work with and train many of these folks in visioning and bringing their community visions to reality. some in big big ways and some in small ways…but always in good ways. probably the most challenging aspects was holding back the know it alls in authority positions who just could not let go of their "me-me-me" or their "superior" habits of dominating. ha! we still made progress.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Thats how it gets done!!
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Man, was I ever wrong. Kudos to bravenak, et al. for putting up with it...
gollygee
(22,336 posts)No doubt.
