Leaving us as mere varlets of the GOP unless we stand in opposition to them.

A one-day mass phenomenon. The people in your post are going to vote Republican. We need to flood the system with left-leaning, human-centric, sensible votes. Leave no Republican in any office. We'll get a saner, better America. And ten years from now the Republicans will thank us for helping to fumigate their party.

I don't create memes, I just reposted it.

The GOTFV message works either way, of course.

In what part of the country can one wear something like that and live, or at least remain unhospitalized? I honestly would like to know.

he wouldn't just be fine....anyone who tried to touch him would be the likely one to be carried by 6.

And this from someone getting his affairs in order to move to SC

Last year in Arkansas and Oklahoma. I saw some disturbing things myself, mentioned them on DU and got HAMMERED for my observations. I was assured, over and over again, that the South IS NOT like that anymore. I sat through a diatribe by my cousin's wife who said, and I quote, "I don't know why the KKK just doesn't go out and shoot Obama and be done with it." Now, notice in this scenario, the KKK is the "hero." I've lived almost 59 years in California and, yes, we certainly do have our share of bigots, but anyone making a statement like that would have been soundly verbally pummeled. However, this was said in a private home. I honestly tried to believe that that kind of bigotry was not so, well, "out there" anywhere in the U.S. anymore as I've been assured, time and again, that it's not.

A few years ago there was a possibility that my husband and I were going to move to Mississippi (me, a lifelong Californian). I was trying to support my husband (as he's always supported me) and was going to be a trooper and move if necessary. I can't tell you the sigh of relief I breathed when I found out we weren't going to move. I'm pretty sure they would have lynched my white liberal California ass by now.

Where would this be tolerated?......sadly...in far too many areas.

I saw more racism in the suburbs of Detroit than I have ever seen in the south and I lived in the Detroit area for 21 years.

In 21 years in Detroit i never worked for or knew an African American who was a plant manager.
The very first plant I worked in in Charleston my plant manager was African American.

Of course that is anecdotal and experience anywhere varies wildly but that is my experiance.

but it never was.

Philosophy and morality are indeed complex. But the vote counting is simple.

More Repub votes than Dem votes= disaster.

But nothing in it says we should not GOTV for Dems. It does make a good case for primary challenges.

voting was done the last time around, but not as the end of all tools. In fact, the unions and workers considered it at the bottom of the list of things to do, for a reason. Who choses who runs for office in an oligarchy.

None is saying do not vote, but stop the make belief that this will be as simple as voting. It is not.

We can not win unless we all vote. Off-year elections included.

And statistically, Dems do tend to slack off in off-year elections. So the GOTV message is very important.

You really have no fracking clue how an oligarchy works.

Change never comes from the booth in one. In fact, the 1% thanks you for that silliness! since they pretty much control who gets on the ballot.

Read what you just posted again. THAT message is what they love, because it encourages citizen apathy and disengagement.

Last edited Sun May 4, 2014, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)

What they fear is an engaged citizenry that will take to the streets, demand real change and organize.

You don't believe it? Look at Occupy for the most recent example of that.

They hate and fear that shit because they know people who are that engaged are paying attention, are willing to do more than just talk, and will vote to boot.

Nah, they prefer you. You will vote for whoever is put in the ballot as long as there is a D. Your all and complete participation is just voting. And don't be bothered with policy, social justice and yes, demanding that

The 1% loves your type. They really do.

If we want to win, we have to adopt a broad-based set of measures.

Occupy accomplished what, exactly, by street protests? They started a conversation. And good on them for doing so.

But how to we make change as as a result of that conversation? Why, by passing laws, budgets, and changing policy. And none of those things will get done UNLESS we take over the legislative bodies in this nation.


I understand your bitterness, defeatism, weariness and the resulting apathy that shines so clearly through your posts. It's May 4th, when violence upon the unarmed protestors in Kent shut down the progressive movement of my youth. It is hard to be optimistic in the face of such tyranny. Or objective.

But mark this well: the shootings were done by Republicans, and only by republicans. Your conflation and concatenation of the two parties is completely erroneous.

There is a difference between the parties. Anyone who can't see that is letting their emotions overrule their objectivity.

Promises if change and nothing? That is what suppresses voting. And that is by design.

how am I discouraging voting by telling people to do it? I just add the caveat you seem to have a problem with. That caveat is that it will not work AS LONG AS ALL YOU DO IS FUCKING VOTE.

I want that voting public to do far more than just be engaged one day every two years during the primary and one more during the general.

Two days out of every 730 days is not involvement.

Many of us get it. It will take more than JUST VOTING. I am sorry that you think all people need to do to be engaged is to vote. Some of us are asking people to be engaged ALL THE TIME, not just on voting day. In effect we are asking for full on engagement with the system. And this is precisely what the elites DO NOT WANT.

Oh and yes, doing GOTV on DU, where every poster who happens to be a US Citizen will hold their nose, and vote, for dems even, IS SILLY (Of course at times we have no choice since a Dem is not on the ballot, like when we had locally the choiceof tea party loon and moderate republican, as happened locally for a judicial election. The loon received a NOT qualified by the local Board and damn it, that board did something very unusual, they held a presser. They did not want that tea party loon anywhere near a judges bench. Oh that loon was not elected by the way to the bench. Those elections by the way matter a lot more than the Presidential election. The RIGHT figured this a generation ago. So who is your state rep? Who is your member of the city council? Have you looked at the voting record of your County Board of Supers rep? I am betting you have no clue who those people are.

And my friend, you are not as engaged as you think you are.

Speaking of elections... I need to go look at a few candidate pages... did you know my congress critter is getting challenged by not one, not two, but four Republicans? Given the new (not so anymore) system, Rep. Davis should move to the general with no issue, after that, well insert name into shell, four men are running on almost a carbon copy of the same platform.

But you are correct, I am all but engaged... and ask people not to.



By the way, I figured it be nice to tell you my delegation all the way down

US Senate

Boxer and Feinstein

US House

Peters (Used to be Davis, but redistricting, argle bargle and all that)

State Senate

Atkins

State House

Weber

County Board

Ron Roberts (we have two with the same last name)

City Mayor

Faulconer

City Member of the City Council

Sherman

Judicial Seat


And Amador for my judge.

And best part, I did not have to look up any of this on the web. I just know who they are. And I am not doing well, since I have no kids in school, I really did not pay as much attention as I should to San Diego Unified. I think it is Barrera, but that one I would have to look it up.

But your dismissive attitude towards voting is not an assumption: you said it right here:

Change never comes from the booth in one. In fact, the 1% thanks you for that silliness! since they pretty much control who gets on the ballot.

99% of the people who read and post on DU are going to vote. It's irritating and pointless, I think, to read GOTV messages here. You're preaching to the choir. Your efforts would be more effective elsewhere.

-Laelth

Yeah, most of my GOTV and election integrity work happens AFK, but if the activist community here gets on the GOTV bandwagon and starts amping up their efforts, we can have a huge impact.

BIL and I were talking about it, 97%. He accounted for non nationals and family emergencies. And the really irritating part is "vote, that will fix everything." Which incidentally breeds contempt for pols, and utter cynicism.

The learned helplessness and sense of futility behind not voting was forged pre-Internet. We don't have the weight of history on us. That's imaginary. The Republicans want to keep a large segment of the left-leaning vote discouraged, cynical, "un-political," and anything else to keep us from realizing we can take over. But we can.

I grew up in an onligarchy. I voted, but expected zero change from the vote. The change came from the streets.

The US is not exceptional. We live in an oligarchy where voting sort of matters to remain in practice, nothing more. It was the same way in the 1880s, and labor organizers knew it.

Also a GOTV on DU is silly. The OP will get a good 99% success rare.

Yup, I missed one election, did not sign for mail in and my brother died three days before the election. For some odd reason that funeral took precedence, I don't have any idea why. I am sure there are a few here who have missed them for family emergencies or health emergencies. So the lowest success GOTV rate is 97%.

I will be impressed if he tries to get the vote out in places where it is indeed difficult, like the youth vote, of the minority vote, of the poor. Here...the fruit is on the ground, not even low hanging.

As to cynical, one of my two beats *is* politics. Political reporters at times don't vote due to that neutrality thing. Those of us who do, are beyond cynical. We get to watch the sausage making.

With people like you discouraging it, I would say it is quite important.

That will vote. I will be impressed when you go to the field. Here it is indeed silly

And assuming that this is all I do is tendentious to say the least. I do a lot of my activism AFK, as do many of us, and assuming otherwise is ignorant at best and counterproductively insulting at worst.

I know nothing of you but your words on the message board, and since I am aware of my lack of knowledge I confine my responses to those words.

Low hanging fruit? This fruit already fell from the tree


And I will continue to but in every time you do this idiocy in a site where people will hold their nose and vote.

It is silly.

I think that is a very rude way to describe our fellow activists.

And if you'll take the time to read, you'll see that there are DUers on this very thread who advocate not voting. And you yourself have, on this very thread, disparaged the efficacy of the balloting process. So your assumption that a GOTV message is not needed on DU is disproven.

I take it as they will vote, in spite of folks like you.

Is it REALLY worth it to shrug it off or say "fuck it" on Election Day - because the available choices aren't "perfect"?

As long as there's a "D" after their names, that's "perfect" enough for me. Better that than an "R" ANY DAY.

Don't think republicans are even close. People are angry and know exactly who is to blame for the mess we are in. I'm not buying the corporate meme that Dems won't vote. We're going to show them!

More Dem votes are always a good thing.

Is always a good thing. We can't allow the wingnuts to get their hands on the Senate and we desperately need to take back the house.

recriminations and bashing of Dems here. We need to get out and vote period. We will show up. We will not vote for continuation of Rs of any variety in office. I'm pissed but it will never keep me from getting out to vote.

And we also need to to GOTV AFK. DU is a good place to spread the message, but we here are a teeny tiny percentage of the populace.

No more corporate warmongers, Trojan horses, or Republicans in Democrat suits.

The party has many decisions to make re: supporting candidates, that will show their real intentions.

I will vote my conscience and principles, whether that is for Democrats or not, is entirely up to the party. If they don't pass the stink test, they won't get my vote. Period.

We have essentially trained them that they can do anything, including expanding the Bushco corporate agenda, and still expect us to line up. It's well past time to change that message.

I will vote my conscience and principles, too. I will not vote for a candidate who does not clearly support the principles and goals that led me to become a Democrat in the first place.

rather than becoming part of a solution. If you don't participate, it will not change. No one will "give" you anything. Step up.

See how easy it is to choose?

In the future, perhaps the parties will run a "dog person" against a "cat person," to increase excitement for the pageantry.

Given the popularity of cat videos on the internet, I'm actually a little surprised they haven't done that yet.

should've worded it as "if you don't vote these damn idiots win!"

Still, it's a very good pic. Later on I'll show it to my Dad, and he might tape it around the city. I printed out a few other pics from DU for him, and he purposely left them on BART and in other random places.

Good on you and your dad!

way of bringing about change. Of course a single vote isn't going to change things by itself, which is why GOTV is so important, and why we need to be pushing those around us to take the time to vote.

As for the argument that inside interests control who's on the ballot - that just not true from what I've seen. Plenty of progressive candidates get on the ballot, though their are many times they don't win in elections that have single digit turnout (though there are many times they do win as well). I suppose you could argue that the few people who show up to vote (or the smaller group who bother to pay attention to who's running for the state committee) are the small group of special interests that control things - but that's a very, very messed up message if you're trying to say voting doesn't change things.

"Every time we stay at home and Group A is the only one who bothers voting in the primaries, Group A ends up deciding who gets on the ballot. Since Group A keeps deciding who gets on the ballot, there's no point in showing up to vote in the primaries." Not sure if the vast majority of people continually choosing to cede their power to the few people that actually care gets to count as an oligarchy.

...but it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Some of us act like there's no other way to affect change....

people should vote, but do a lot more than just voting. Just voting is not going to do a tinkers damn of difference until we put feet to fire... and that means so much more than just voting

Without voting on our part, the Repubs will continue to pillage the nation.

Less than ten votes in an entire state gave the Repubs total control of Ohio. So voting needs to be a focus.

I'm not sure who your target audience is.

I always vote, whether or not I vote the way I'm told.

My target audience is the entirely-too-large group of people from the center through the Left who sit out the midterms.

2010 it was independent and moderates that staid home. Some hippy punching right there. Fortunately those hippies vote, every fracking election.

The other major group that sat it out were single women and those under 30.

To repeat these lies on a site where these lies have been debunked regularly is sad, or are you trying to make those voters start to think that with these friends who needs enemies?

By the way, why did we do so well in 2008? Starting in 2006 with Dr Dean's fifty state strategy, which at a strategic level makes sense, but the party won't bother with it.

I am not surprised though that you do hippy punching instead of using real world data and never question the motives of the Democratic Party.

Oh and primaries, you really need to look up the Willy Brown rule for California. It will be self explanatory why there are no primary challengers in California. A few other states have a similar unwritten, but well understood, rule. But of course, I really do not expect any better right now.

Please read what I actually wrote before responding.

And I wonder why you find it necessary to disparage GOTV threads? If you think they are a waste of time, just ignore them. But arguing against GOTV is arguing in favor of suppressing the vote. Why would anyone spend so much time on such a pursuit here on DU?

And the left did show up in 2010...which is where your expected hippy punching came in.

And I will continue to call on this simplistic voting will solve things every time. You might as well put me on ignore. Why? We need to change how we do things and get people engaged 365 of the year, not two days every 270 days.

And it is silly on DU. Really.

Put you on ignore? Why? The debate between us is probably quite illuminating to others.

I stand for increased citizen engagement, and, in pursuit of that, choose to expend most of my limited energies on GOTV, voter access and election integrity. That does not mean I disparage other useful activities or methods.

And arguing against such activities, as you do, will meet my opposition. Voting matters.

Have people vote. By all means. Do not promise though that voting is a panacea. Move your voter from just voting to more engagement with the system.

I will go back to my local union activist. Yes, they show up and vote, but they also show at city council to demand stuff the community needs, they at times march. And they are part of the Unite Here group that has managed to get a few hotels organized.


Voting is not the end of all engagement. Your messaging here is exactly that, the end of all engagement. And if we cannot argue about this on DU, then it proves how non mature the US is, though it explains low voting rates compared to advanced democracies.

And yes, this simple messaging is silly.

Oh and here we should be arguing how to increase that engagement. People here WILL VOTE.

Your assumption is erroneous and so too is your conclusion.

That assumption wouldn't serve as a viable basis for suppression of GOTV activism on DU, even if it were based on truth. Since it is not, it is even less valid.

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 03:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Non US citizens do not vote in US elections. I expect them though to vote in their own elections

US citizens who are members of the Universe that is DU who have missed an election have done such due to family emergencies or illness. DU has a very high turnout rate, since geez Louis it is full of activists.

As to my conclusion of the just vote and things will be better is based on talking with people who were told that by well meaning activists, after seeing pretty much no action they stopped voting. We got two back to voting, alas we made then hard core sctivists, and they never use that simplistic formula themselves due to their experience. I dare say they are not alone.

And that is what you keep ignoring and will keep ugnoring. The oligarchy loves you though. You are well meaning, but there is a reason why voting rates are as low as they are. One of the reasons is the simple messaging.

American activists really need a good talk with activists around the world and to develop a concept of class.

I of course expect you to continue to misrepresent what I am telling you. And to continue to make accusations of voter suppression. These, I might add, are funny as hell

(I hate posting from phone)

When you say there is no need for GOTV on DU and the facts do not support your claim, pointing out your error is not misrepresenting: it is clarifying and correcting.

When you say, on the one hand, that nothing ever changes as a result of voting, and then on the other claim to not be disparaging GOTV, I am going to call you on it. And that is not misrepresentation either.

And I have repeatedly agreed that GOTV is only part of what we need to do, so your repeated claims to the contrary are themselves misrepresentations of my position, based on an out-of-context and incomplete citation of a previous OP of mine.

I repeat: unless we vote, and encourage others in and outside of DU to do likewise, none of our other efforts to enact change will succeed. It is a vital and foundational element of activism in the US.

So please, support it, and stop arguing against it.

And yes, you are misrepresenting it, since your simple message, do not vote for the evil man (who is the evil one is in the eye of the beholder) and all will be better is simple, and does not work and actually does discourage voting.

Instead of this silly, vote for the evil one and all will be lost, RRRUUUUNNNN!!!!! you should be discussing how to increase voting rates, and how to increase class consciousness, and how to increase engagement beyond election day.

You forget I cover politics, and I talk with voters REGULARLY, as well as former voters. I have been told point blank that the do not vote for the evil ones and if you vote for our guys actually discourages voters. I have actually seen the discussion on how to get AWAY from that stupid, simple messaging, but you will continue to misrepresent what I am telling you. It must be a threat to you personally.

And yes, GOTV simple threads on DU are silly, given the very high rate of voting in an activist site. I would hazard it is in the low to mid 90s.

Threads that cover how to make the messaging more effective, and the one at the top of this OP is one of those silly ones, is what should be happening where you have a very high rate of voting. Trust me, we will all vote, unless there is a death in the family or are so sick we are incapable of making it to the polls. Yes, I voted once with a 101 fever. So stop misrepresenting what people are telling you.

And I will keep calling you on that simple, shitty, and very silly messaging since I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT, it suppresses voting in the long run. You are forgetting who your public is, and it is not the converted that will nod in agreement. This is marketing 101 and politics IS MARKETING. This shitty graphic goes nowhere south of the 8 in my town for example. And it is a turn off.

You are well meaning but for some silly reason you are threatened by this critique... Like many activists you seem to have the only answer. Well proof pudding and all that, what are the voting rates in the US? Oh yes, low to mid fifty percent in a presidential election, where they have been for decades. What is the voting rate in off years? Mid forties. Special elections, we are lucky when we breach the low forties.

Where is the wall? And please proceed with the misrepresentation.

You are arguing with me. To me, that means you either a: are against GOTV, or b: have some sort of theory that saying GOTV will somehow depress the vote.

In either case, I am in complete disagreement with you. As a longtime GOTV activist, I can tell you from experience that you are incorrect. And as a former election worker (government and private sector), I can tell you that turnout is the #1 way to overcome election rigging.

Telling me to stop advocating for voting because it discourages voting is a nonsensical notion, as is the idea that arguing against GOTV will somehow increase turnout.

But I guess telling you that your message and method is not working is advocating against voting. (That is sort of confusing but whatever)

At least not where we understand the English language. And no, I an not wrong... nor am I advocating against voting, except in your imagination and I expect you to keep misrepresenting because I am a threat to you.

It is the only conclusion left. And I will continue to call you out on the very simplistic messaging you have going there.

Logic without data is almost never true except within an unproved syllogism, and we have seen the truth of that bit of Logic 101 throughout this thread. None of your assumptions about me have been at all correct. Neither is this one.


You are not a threat: you are an opportunity, as an example of vote suppression as practiced by those not on the political Right.

Your arguments have varied: voting is pointless in an oligarchy, voting is insufficient, and GOTV activism when done in a manner other than yours is actually voter suppression in disguise. All specious, and all regrettably common on the Left, and somewhat towards the Center as well. But all designed to discredit and marginalize get out the vote efforts.

You can play the "argument from Authority" card as many times as you like. But, you see, I also have relevant experience and knowledge: not as a journalist, but as a longtime election integrity activist, poll worker, and election software/hardware expert. I submit that this insider knowledge is at least as valuable as outsider knowledge.

Especially since your argument is illogical on its face: "shut up about GOTV, riqster, because you're not doing it my way, and thus are a vote suppressor". Quite ludicrous.

GOTV is an important message , and instead of arguing with me about minutiae, your time would be far better served advocating for GOTV in your own way. If, that is, you do in fact support GOTV at all.

In what universe? Oh yeah, the I cannot understand English universe.

ONLY VOTING is not going to change a thing. VOTING AND MAKING NOISE WITH MARCHES, GOING TO CITY COUNCIL el al DOES BRING CHANGE.

Explain to me, how this is voting suppression? I am actually preferring people get invested because you know what? THEY WILL VOTE on top of everything else.

And what I am telling you is that the message is not working. Don't believe me... ask these people why they gave up on the voting booth.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/us/hopes-frustrated-many-latinos-reject-the-ballot-box-altogether.html?_r=0

By the way BEFORE I read the bloody article I knew, and the article repeated many of the reasons I gave you. I guess the NYT is also into voting suppression.

::Shakes Head:: and yes, IMPLIED FACEPALM

I will keep telling you, that this simple message that if you do not vote it will be bad ain't working. You need to give the voter something to vote for.

Oh and one more thing, all my arguments are internally consistent. And proof is in the bloody pudding

And at no point have I said stay home and seat the election out. SHOW ME THAT BLOODY POST. Becuase you can't.

And yes, in an oligarchy voting is not the solution that you think it is. IT IS SOMEWHERE LOW IN THE TOTEM POLE BUT PEOPLE STILL VOTE. THE JUST realize that change is going to come through a lot of things... not a singular thing.

I get that it isn't enough by itself and have said so repeatedly; but that it is essential. Not much different than what you are saying.

With 90%+ voting rates to messaging and how to increase the participation beyond just voting! because the simplistic message that it will solve all is actually a turn off! then I guess I am atracking you.

And I will continue to say, it is not as simple as voting.

Clear enough now?

Look at the OP. It says "vote". It does not say "vote and do nothing else". That is something you chose to insert into this thread. I did not include it on the OP, so I don't see why you are on the warpath about it now.

And as to the appropriateness of posting it on DU where most of us already vote: do you thus lambaste posters who advocate against child abuse? Who decry corruption?

After all, I'd suspect far more than 90% of us do not abuse children, nor are we corrupt political officials. So that would be even more "silly" to post about, according to your logic: indeed, it's preaching to the choir and congregation. Ah but no, it's GOTV threads that are the target of your wrath.

As long as you leap on GOTV threads as being inappropriate or counterproductive but not other topics that could be considered as unnecessary or duplicative, and especially when you base your critique on out-of context and inaccurate information, I will continue to argue for my case, because GOTV is a critical part of our activist toolkit.

On edit: I think these preaching to the choir threads have merit: after all, just like the choir, we activists amplify the message from the "pulpit" so the people in the back "pews" get the word.

We are in a place where that discussion should happen. So get used to it.

If this was Logan Heights, with first time voters, that is a whole different audience. That said, local organizers now tell those first time voters that casting the ballot is never the end of it.

Some first time voters groan, others get it. And you know what, most of those who get it, came from oligarchies themselves. So they see voting as a minor step in taking on and engaging with our oligarchy. This inevitably will lead to a direct challenge and change. None has to explain it to them. And they will be extremely reliable voters, like all immigrants are. But damn, they will be at city hall regularly too, and become a pain in the royal neck at the school board, and congress, local reps learn not to make promises they can't keep. These voters will vote against them if a betrayal happens, and my dear they care little about letters behind names. Oh and they do follow politics to boot.

It helps I live in a town with multiple immigrant communities.

You know some of these first time voters have become hard core organizers, and have gone to areas traditional GOTV activists never go to, like Crest, south east San Diego, the wrong side of Mollison in El Cajon. They get people voting, but more than just voting. They all internalized this lesson in places of origin. One that you have a problem with, voting and just voting is not going to do a tinkers damn of difference, and that will get people cynical, angry and not voting. and some of them are women, of color, who would never do this back home either. And I mean voting and getting active in organizing. Women simply do not do this in Somalia...

You know when that happened as well? The German, Jewish and Irish labor organizers in the 1880s, I keep telling you about them. They brought people to the polls, but did so much more they got a 40 hour week, and over generations the right to strike. Alas they never just voted, or lived the fiction that all you needed to do is vote. And this is the place this discussion has to happen, because it is beyond silly to tell people here to vote. We all will, unless there is a death in the family, or we are in the ER, or the poster is not a US citizen. And we have a few of those.

I urged people to vote. I frequently do. I urge activists to GOTV as well.

Nowhere in this thread did I say that voting was the beginning and end of civic engagement.

You chose to insert that yourself. Thus, you are arguing with yourself.

As you suggest, I will get used to that bizarre behavior. Just don't expect agreement.

You are cute, and bizarre indeed.

All I have said, which you took exception to, is that voting is not the solution you think it is, per your own posting.

Get used to it, every thread you post, due do the audience, this is not Logan Heights after all, I will keep pointing out it is not the end.

I expect you to continue to tell me I am suppressing the vote.

When governments try to block and mock GOTV messages, they are called out for voter suppression.

Why should individuals get a pass for doing the same thing?

To messaging and engagement as disparaging efforts to increase voting in a place where you might get one more person to the polls, you got my number.



Beyond ridiculous, but keep claiming what has not happened.

At this point expected and comical.

And you tried to say that I said things I did not say. Neither is that expansion.

I object to your simplistic FB message because it actually suppresses the vote. I am sorry you do not want to understand why it does. But it does suppress the vote. I even gave you a concrete example of one community that has pretty much given up on voting due to the negative simplistic message of "if you do not vote you will get these scary guys."

What is hilarious is that many activists like you, locally are being committed to safe neighborhoods anymore where they preach to the converted, take exception at the criticism from the people who have been rather succesful, as measured in US elections. They still need to overcome the special election...hurdle. still, pudding, results and all that. Minority activists using positive messaging that include engagement might get a minimum wage rise on the ballot in November and got the city council to be super-majority democratic. And it is not just me and my fellow newsers at city committees either anymore, let alone city council. It is nice not to be me, and council.

Some of us can't wait for them to repeat those results in other local areas. But you are right, they are suppressing the vote.



But the traditional group wants to drive these successful boots on ground, funny, they made the exact same talking points you are using. They are, rightfully mind you, scared that the newcomers will take over the party, and chiefly nominating committees. If you live in Rancho Bernardo, I am sure these Logan a Heights new comers are a challenge... And yes, that crap also happen on in the Democratic Party.

So I will continue to be critical" get used to it.

In and of itself, that is of little import.

But you are hijacking a GOTV thread to argue with yourself, and that has a suppressive effect.

I do understand your quaint and insufficiently scientific thesis that simple GOTV efforts are bad: but I reject it, because it is based on anecdotal evidence and tendentious statements. Comprehension is not the issue. Agreement is, and that you will not get.

Your underlying assumption that straightforward GOTV efforts are inherently suppressive is not proven. When you can provide rigorous peer-reviewed and well-researched studies that prove such a case, do please forward them along.

Meanwhile, I shall continue my voter-related activism: mostly AFK, but here as well. That will not change until you can make a better case.

And good luck to your viewers, readers, or listeners, as the case may be.

Of being extremely fair and neutral, and have won awards. Nothing like asking the Secretsry of the Interior an important policy question though

Thanks!

Scary as well as humorous.

2014 is lining up to look like.....

RWNJ/Teahadist (R) vs Pragmatic, Corporate, Moderate, Conservative, Corporate (D)

a losing choice.

Your point is a valid one, if we look at history. The 1% are hoping we all just show up in November, and only in Presidential years at that.

We need to raise our level of involvement, and encourage others (non-activists especially) to do the same. By changing what we do, we can make incremental changes to the current paradigm.

they only have to rent a few from time to time...and it works every time, we win yet still lose.

I am a big proponent of quality over quantity and until democrats improve the quality of the D's we vote for we, the 99%, will still lose.

Jackasses like the ones you mention are in power because they won primaries. We need to step up our game and get our people in the General.

I spent a lot of time over the winter working with others to recruit more progressive candidates to run this year. The Ohio Dem party (AKA the Redfern employment society) won't do so, thus there are little tiny fishies like me swimming around. Have we won yet? Oh hell no. Are we stopping? Nope.

The only way to change the status quo is to change what we do and how we engage. To act as WMWS said upthread (wait for the party to give us what we want before engaging) is a passive approach. We need to actively contest these elections.

And unless we vote, we will have no influence. Why should those in power listen to us if we don't give them a reason to?

are happy with the status quo and ALWAYS carry a pen with you into the voting both.

Just because they have a (D) after their name does not mean they actually support the party platform or your values.

If the lib/progressive loses in the primary the (D) will not automatically get my vote either. I refuse to vote for the lessor of 2 evils, when you do the result is still evil.

I see the greater of two evils as being far worse than the lesser. Eight years of the Bushistas showed me how bad things can get when the greater evil triumphs, in the food banks, shelters, and other places I volunteer.

Seeing the poor and powerless' lot go from bad to intolerable firmed my decision to vote against each and every Repub I can, via the candidate most likely to defeat them.

One example: Bush turned skinny poor kids into famine poster children. Gore or Kerry would have been far better, however imperfect they were.

Everyone knows that sign should read 'Fewer Taxis', because taxis are quantifiable units!

I would have added 'and more public transit!' to the bottom, as well.

Making it even more important that the actual people (not corporate "persons&quot of the USA turn out and vote against those motherfuckers.

How do you vote against that? What choice do we / I really have?

The choice seems stark. The greater evil is far worse than the Dems.

There's not enough people who are smart enough and aware enough and or have the energy and will to fight to stop the corporate and MIC train ....in the Dem party. If only we could get the other side to join in this fight we might be able to slow it down or keep it from getting worse. Voting for anyone with a D could at best only slow the take over IMO. I also find it hard to believe the majority of repukes are that stupid. You can find stupid people in both parties and hold them up for ridicule and make it seem as if all of them are stupid. I think that goes on quite a bit on DU. Yes many repukes deserve the mockery and ridicule they get here. If we keep voting for the lessor of 2 evils how are we that much smarter than them? IMO we need to figure out a way to get honest and promise keeping people in office without big and dark money which require paybacks. We need people who will stand up for Joe and Mary Smith and not cater to the 1% and corporations. I'm at the point of not giving a shit anymore. The anger and frustration is not worth it. At some point I got to say fuck it and spend more time on my sail boat and playing with my parrots.

VOTE!

Today is primary day here in Ohio.