you are twisting it....

Denying White male privilege doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

for another perspective.

Because I never got a red carpet rolled out for me if anything I always got someone asking about my heritage whenever I said my last name when they damn well knew it was Jewish.

But I wear it on my sleeve and I'm proud of it.

If someone had a problem with me for being Jewish, I'd rather know it up front.

When someone asks me about my last name or position on Israel I can tell real quick that they are a bigot.

. . . not how you perceive yourself.

It's funny how the privilege debates seem to assume the term "white man" means heterosexual white man.

As if gay people either don't exist or are treated equally.

"Some groups of people enjoy social advantages over others. Straights over gays, whites over black, Rich over poor". I think that is obviously true and I have no problem with it.


What I immensely dislike is the other apparent one that seems to go like this "Because YOU are from a privileged group you had things easier and YOU do not understand". This is embodied in the idea of someone "checking their privileged". I find it insane, because everyone has some kind of social advantage compared to other groups. That is where the oppression Olympics I was talking about earlier come into play. Isn't there a way we can try to correct societal imbalances without ripping down individuals?

Acknowledging privilege is not tearing someone down. It's realizing that one has some advantages. It does not require punishing that person for those advantages.

As a practical matter, all you have to do is take a moment to consider if your privilege is coloring your opinion on some matter. For example, if you think "cops aren't that bad", it may be colored by you not appearing to be black. When someone who is black says they are that bad, just don't dismiss them out-of-hand based on your experiences.

Ta-da! No ripping down required.

Do not automatically have privilege. ...as the op has shown......

I for one grew up poor...there is no privilege there.

For one thing, you're a lot less likely to be murdered by police.

White privilege is divisive and doesn't bring people together. Its just another way to label and judge. For one the issue is greater than just race.

Individuals are still individuals, but speaking in generalities is sometimes necessary to distill complex social phenomena to something comprehensible.

You are not analyzing it clearly and have now twice mischaracterized the issue as "just race", when there are many kinds of privilege.

Independent of everything else, black people have it harder than whites. Same goes for gays and straights, women and men, poor and rich, and many other things.

Try not to feel attacked. The fact that your life is easier than it could have been if you had different characteristics does not mean your life isn't hard, and doesn't denigrate your struggles. Nor is it your fault - it's a flaw in our society.

Just add this knowledge into your suite of critical thinking skills, and it will help you see issues more clearly.

...if you don't have hands-on experience with something, you need to sit down and shut up and listen to those who do. When you can command that kind of power -- the power to silence your opposition with a few words -- many people will be tempted to use it. And once the temptation to use it is there, to temptation to be -able- to use it becomes more prevalent.

Then the rankings begin.

Privilege is a very useful, undeniably true concept in academia. In street use, its value is lower than some guy on the street quizzing me about the value of Pi.

Edit: Clarity in final section

I think it is perfectly reasonable that a straight person could understand my journey as a gay person. Everyone has been teased for being different at some point, it is just a matter of degree and reason.

to those who do. "

The bottom line.

True words, applicable in this and many other contexts.

...of the things we take for granted wouldn't even exist.

Millions of things have been invented, improved, and perfected by those with no practical experience whatsoever, including every single new idea that humankind has ever come up with, EVER. This quoted mindset is a one-way ticket to outright fascism by exclusion. It's blind, it's short-sighted, and it's arrogant in the extreme.

That is -not- to say that those with experience shouldn't be given the preponderance of attention, mind you. They should be, and for patently obvious reasons. But to -exclude- others for that reason is societal suicide. Arguments must be weighed on their merit, not on who spoke them.

because we are talking about two different things.

Per the OP, I am talking about the practical experience of being a particular minority group. Those outside this group can't know better than those inside that have the experience.

Most great inventions come from people already in the field who are intimate with the details of the processes in the first place, so I think you are really wrong on this point.

The fascism bit is way over-the-top, by the way. And wrong.

that you do not have as a result of being gay? Are there some ways in which you are treated intrinsically differently than your straight counterparts? The example you gave is of your not being able to marry. Do you think that straight people may not understand the full importance of the fact that their ability to marry is a privilege that you don't possess?

Are there other areas in which your being gay creates difficulties that you would not have to experience if you were straight? Do you sometimes experience discrimination which I, as a straight person, might not receive, and might not even understand? Are there difficult experiences you have as a gay person which I as a straight person might be wholly unaware even exist, and may blithely assume you don't have to deal with, simply because I don't have to deal with them?

Does your being gay open you to a world of experiences that I do not have?

I am guessing that the answer to all of these questions is yes.

It can require work and empathy. It might be easier if they have faced discrimination for some other reason, but anyone anywhere is capable of understanding if they really want to.

There is nothing about being born gay that imparts a special wisdom or understanding.

Of course some people don't get it and frankly don't want to get it, I think that there are not many people like that posting here.

one becomes sick and hospitalized, that they could lose everything- because they can't get married. Smart people, but none of this occured to them in all the years they wondered why gays want to marry. They assumed it was for the symbolic gesture.

They are not things that are likely to be obvious to me. As you say, I would need to exert work and empathy to understand them.

If I chose not to exert that work and empathy, I might never understand them. Because I do not experience them, and the majority of people, being straight, do not experience them.

I was not saying there was anything about being born gay that imparts special wisdom or understanding. I WAS saying that there are things about being born gay that create unique experiences not shared, and not understood without -as you say- work and empathy, by straight people.

Yet sometimes I feel like we are encouraging the opposite.

parts of your life? You're saying that you might have experiences I don't understand? This discussion is ridiculous!" or as some insist, "this discussion is you saying that I am at fault for the discrimination you experience!"

-when that is how the conversation is approached, then whose goal is going to be empathy and engagement?

This is why people say that the end of privilege has to begin with the privileged. Yes. The goal should be empathy and engagement. But if only you are empathetic and engaged and I am not, nothing happens. As the non-discriminated party, I could very easily live my life without ever extending that empathy and engagement. If most straight people do that, nothing happens, as was business as usual until very recently with respect to gay rights.

I value equal rights for my gay relatives, so I have engaged and developed empathy. I also value equal rights for my black relatives, and I understand that equal rights for them also depend on the engagement and empathy of the non-discriminated party. Without it, nothing happens. That is why the end of white privilege cannot happen without the engagement - and the acknowledgment! - of white people.

You seem unclear about this.

I'm a straight white cis male. If a straight black cis male with the exact same background, education, and income level applied to the same job as me, statistically, I would be the one to get the job, simply by virtue of the color of my skin. Same goes for likelihood of being stopped by law enforcement.

Privilege is not the absence of all discrimination and troubles in life. It's the absence of certain discrimination based on little more than your gender, race, or sexual orientation.

White people, straight people, cis people, and men are going to grow up different and have different experiences. Statistically though, they are not going to have to deal with certain problems they otherwise would if they were black, Latino, gay, or female.

Certainly there are some people of color who grew up with more advantages than some white people, but you cannot deny the instituionalized racism that was written into law (up until recently) that as a white person, you never had count against you. You've taken the concept personally, and should not do so.

... some of the same thoughts I've been having about this "privilege" thing.

I've essentially been born with "full privilege" but I recognized (and likely also was taught) from an early age that people should be judged on their own merits and not on preconceived notions. I sort of feel uncomfortable with the whole "you're privileged and you had damn well better recognize it" and have your nose rubbed in it for good measure ... thing.

We all live to do our best.

every darned minute of their lives. You can- and do- choose to ignore reality.
Doesn't matter to the rest of us that you have a high falluting wish for a utopia- you are ignoring reality, maybe because it is easiest for you? Ignoring it doesn't help get us to a better place.

A personal attack simply for explaining my feelings.

Is that your contention?

I don't wish to talk about this with you further as you are incapable of understanding what I am attempting to say. I may not have said it exactly as I intended or as you read it but I don't perceive that further discussion from our positions would be worth anything at this point.

You won't consider what I'm saying so there is no point in my attempting to explain it.

either way, good luck with that!

I mean think about it for a second. You've made several assumptions about who I am and what I stand for and I'll just tell you that most of them are dead wrong.

Sorry if it makes you angry, it is just not a very empathetic, or even realistic mindset. You could do with some reflection on that.

Sorry but you are now going on ignore. You might consider reflecting on why I would take that step with a fellow DU'er

I'm sure you understand how that would be really insulting too!

:byebye:

So do you. Yes, you can be poor, or gay, or dyslexic, or whatever, but your whiteness is still there. All the times you're NOT stopped by the undercover cop in the store, you probably don't remember those times.

That's more of a class privilege. I get followed in stores a -lot-. I always have. So do most of the people in my class level, although we may occasionally slide in Wal-Mart or somewhere really huge and busy.

But you put me in a Bed Bath and Beyond or a Sharper Image and there are four shelf-stockers on every aisle, all conveniently right when I go to that aisle. It's amazing, I tell you!

All the times you don't get pulled over by the cops for being suspicious (aka driving while black), you don't know about.
Period.

I said that one categorical example was a poor one. There is a large amount of difference between the two.

And people have plenty to be angry about, justifiably - as do members of the GLBT community.

I generally don't participate in any of those threads b/c I have long agreed with the understandings of privilege as they are expressed in society, even while certain individuals may take issue they are not recipients.

Occasionally I will talk about this to those people - but, if you ever scan these threads, it's often the same people who continually take issue with the idea. They dig in their heels for whatever reason - and, realizing this, I don't continue to discuss such things with them because it's a waste of time. As I noted at one such point - the phrase has long been part of "discourse" - in a particular context - outside of that context - I would rather simply talk about ways to overcome what exists.

It's unrealistic to think that everyone is going to acknowledge the idea - so if people bring this up because they think they will change the opinion of the entrenched - well, that's a fool's errand.

History demonstrates changes for the better will occur - and, even as they do - there will be those who "don't get it." As someone with a vested interest in civil rights as a member of a particular group - you know this, I'm sure.

I think it's better to post research and the lived experiences of people - a record to demonstrate a reality.

But if others want to talk about this as they do - they will - and I'll do things in a way that makes the most sense for me, too. I generally don't enjoy back and forths with people who have shown they're not at a place or of a mindset that can hear others' truths.

You don't have to be wealthy to benefit from white privilege. Nothing in that term suggests you are. All it means is you are not subject to racial discrimination. Why is that so objectionable? Are you seriously going to argue that being black or Hispanic makes no difference in America?

Of course all human beings have unique stories. The term white privilege doesn't suggest otherwise. It has NOTHING to do with assuming you know someone exclusively based on their race. You've clearly made a point of not paying attention to what anyone has said on the topic. It is unfortunate you don't have enough respect for DUers of color to read their concerns on this subject; instead you invent an absurd strawman argument. Posts like yours communicate to members of color that they can participate on DU as long as they don't say anything "too ethnic," like talking about privilege, that makes white folks uncomfortable. You're okay if you talk and act exactly like me, but if you start writing about stuff that makes me uncomfortable, that's illegitimate. I'll ignore everything you say and invent bullshit to trivialize your views and experiences.

I don't understand how these concepts are so alien to people. I would think everyone who attended college would have some basic exposure to race, class, and gender, at least. It's been standard analysis in history, literature, sociology, anthropology, cultural studies, and a whole host of disciplines for decades.

I'm a white person too, and I don't judge you based on your skin color. I judge based on your mind and positions you take on issues like these. Portraying yourself as the victim in this scenario is particularly offensive. The absence of racism does not make you a victim. Having to occasionally be exposed to the views of people of color does not make you the victim. I would be surprised if you had not been the target of homophobia, but hearing about white privilege does not oppress you.

This reactionary bullshit on race makes me ill. I feel like I'm trapped in a Fox News vortex.

Sometimes it makes me wonder what other people are thinking about people that are not white enough to hide it when they are out in public.
Other times I just get ill, like you.

that, YES, privilege exists, BUT just because someone isn't a member of a discriminated-against group doesn't mean they're not entitled to an opinion or lack the experience to have an opinion.

Argue against what the OP said if you must, but arguing against what the OP DIDN'T say is not fair.

In fact, it's called the "straw man" (also, "the weak opponent&quot fallacy.

I read this:

However just because I look white (ask a million racists, apparently being Jewish means I'm not really "White&quot . I apparently have gotten some kind of huge social advantage over other minorities? . . .

This privilege thing to me seems like we're prejudging the lives of other people based on their race. "Oh you've had it so easy" or "You don't know what discrimination is like so just shut up". . . You don't know a damn thing about someone based exclusively on their race and I wish people would stop acting like they do. Even based on what I've told you today about being Jewish or being gay, frankly I don't think you know a thing more about me than when you started reading this thread.

I'm a human being and I deserve to be judged as human being, not as the sum total of the negative or social advantages I was born with.
. . .

He argues specifically against the belief that "You don't know what discrimination is like so just shut up".

After you got done saying that he doesn't say this, you then said exactly what he was arguing against: "your opinion . . . does not substitute for the experience of actually being a person of color," i.e., "you don't know what discrimination is, so just shut up."

Why? A sociologist researching quantifiable research, for instance, would have a much better idea of the causes and effects of racism than an individual person of color growing up under any of a thousand variables of a society with lingering racism.

What I hear the OP saying is that the privilege argument ultimately devolves into "I'm more discriminated against than you . . . no, you're not . . . yes, I am."

It's like the blacks who say that Obama is not black because his blackness comes from a free African and not generations of enslavement. WTH?

My own position is that privilege is present in our society on many levels--race, gender, age, socio-economic status. It is a valuable concept to understand inequality. But I think when it is used as a propaganda tool to change minds, it runs into a predictable obstacle that people identified as "privileged" are going to object to that label and push-back against it. It also creates divisions just as the OP pointed out as groups seek to trump others in who is the most victimized.

So, it's not very effective in changing people's thinking.

Specifically here.

Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 10:40 PM - Edit history (1)

You missed my central point in the post you objected to. Race is distinct from class and sexuality. That one faces disadvantages in the latter two doesn't mean one isn't privileged in the first. This is not a very complicated concept. There is no reason it should have to be explained multiple times, except that some clearly have made a willful decision to refuse to understand.

Your assumption that a white sociologist can know as much about the EXPERIENCE of racism as a person of color is ridiculous. A sociologist knows what she can measure and what she can't. I have a PhD in history and have done research on slavery and written about race. That doesn't for a second mean I know how it feels to be a person of color. That you even imagine academic knowlege substitutes for experience is bizarre. No academic would make such an assumption. They would maintain no credibility if they did.

Race, class and gender are not "propaganda tools." They are modes of analysis and subject positions produced by society. They influence HUMAN EXPERIENCES, the lives of human beings you think can be captured through sociological data.

Lots of people don't feel privileged. The rich don't feel privileged either. Does that mean they aren't? The fact is as white people we are not subject to racial discrimination. If I'm pulled over in the car, it's for a valid reason, not because the cops think I couldn't own the car. Very few black men, if any, in this country haven't been pulled over when they haven't committed a violation. That is their typical experience. The fact that doesn't happen to us gives us a certain privilege over them in terms of race. I as a straight person don't face legal impediments to marriage and other discrimination based on whom I love. That gives me privilege over the OP in terms of sexuality. He has other privileges I do not as a result of being male. Privilege is simply a way of talking about the absence of the experience of discrimination. In the case of white privilege, it means the absence of racial discrimination.

I would be very surprised if anyone told you to shut up. That sounds like more BS you made up to trivialize the issue. You can say anything you want. You can post an OP claiming you know as much about the experience of racism as members of color. And others in turn can disagree and draw conclusions about you as a result. Your are entitled to free speech, not the absence of criticism.

You continue to willfully ignore what people have said. Your comment here is a prime example:

"I really don't care how you put out by the indignity of having a handful of African American posters on this board"

I'm not put out by anything . . . until people claim they can read my mind and understand my motivations instead of arguing against my points.

How do you know I'm not a person of color? Because I didn't mention it? Because I have a different view from what YOU would expect a person of color to have?

You make a lot of unwarranted assumptions.

*****

And speaking of getting put out, the original OP was by a homosexual Yehudi to which you responded somewhat, shall we say, indignitly.

Not your mind.

I wrote about this in another thread.

Why or why not?

I don't get your question. I don't desire to be anyone, but myself.

Presented with some opportunity to change your race from white to black, would you do it?

If no, why not? If yes, why?

Just like I have no desire to change my sexual orientation.

Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid. What am I missing? Were they lying to us?

of time and flame bait. Or they will have a bunch of holier-than-thou types, a mob really, laying in wait for any that don't echo their thoughts, with accusations ready and armed as punishment... That is why I trash most of them.

I also agree that some of them think this means they know something about a duer, when they don't know crap about duers personal circumstances. Definitely think you have a good point there.

I hope this isn't another version of "My dad grew up poor so there's no white privilege!"

to posters . . . when it is impossible for you to know such things.

I've been accused on message boards (not this one . . . yet) for trolling against Obama when I spent hours actively campaigning for the guy--and not just fund raisers at Dem HQ's; I'm talking about house-to-house street canvassing.

But a little realistic criticism of our president, plus a huge imagination on the part of other posters, and suddenly I'm the enemy.

Or take another example--when I first started posting here, a dude got PPR'd and the people who ousted him danced on his grave very publicly. That poster had been here for over ten years and had many thousands of posts. His only "crime" was making the wrong people mad at him. I couldn't believe how quickly people turn on each other here, accuse them of every vile motivation, and get them banned. And then celebrate it.

Sickening.

I guess my annoyance at people being seemingly resistant to pretty basic progressive ideas, has perhaps caused me to lump certain posters together unfairly. It happens.

"Party-line-ism" is something to be avoided at all costs. It's this kind of factionalism that finally broke up the Civil Rights movement and the SDS. It's (fortunately) leading to the early demise of the Tea-party movement as conservatives attempt to prove that each one is more batshit conservative than the other.

Saul Alinsky writes that our only creed (as radical leftists) should be "for the common good."

Everybody has felt oppression in their own way. And everybody has been privileged in their own way. Talking about privilege in no way discredits the individuality of people. Nobody is saying white people can't be oppressed. Really, what you're actually discussing in this post should all be part of a discussion about privilege; it doesn't stand in opposition of it.

Which is ironic, since you acknowledge you felt the effects of privilege so strongly in your own life.

In America, Christians are privileged over Jews.

Heterosexuals are privileged over homosexuals.

Men are privileged over women.

And people without melanin are privileged over those with.

There are all sorts of intersecting layers of privilege.

And many of the most obvious privileges are negative - people who are in the privileged group don't get hassled for being different. You don't get pulled over for 'driving while white' or have the cops called on you because some white neighbour sees you fumbling with the keys to your house and calls the cops on you because they automatically assume you're a burglar. It's the things 'not done to you' that are the automatic privilege.

Privilege doesn't really mean you'll not get diseases. But it does mean that when you go in to get treatment for them, you'll get better service overall. Maybe not intentionally on anyone's part, but statistics show it to be true. And that's another big part about privilege - it's about statistics, not really individuals. On average, a 'white' person will have an easier time getting a job, getting a loan, getting into better schools. That doesn't mean that any given individual white person will always get a job, a loan, a good school. Heck, I've been largely unemployed going on something like 5 years now, barring a few piddling contracts that still left me far below the poverty line. But that doesn't mean the privileges I enjoy simply from being a white male have disappeared. They may not be things that 'matter much' to me, simply because I take them for granted. But you can bet if I started getting pulled over all the time, stopped and frisked, etc, that I would suddenly notice their absence.

So it's not about who you are - it's about how other people treat you based on the various groups they mentally put you in. You DO deserve to be judged as a human, but the reality is that none of us are by most people. We're all judged by the pigeonholes they pop us into based on gender, orientation, religious views, skin tone, political views, etc, etc, etc.

YES. I've been trying to say this over and over. The people who argue against privilege as some extra-special benefit package are missing the point entirely.

I was born with." Everyone deserves that. Which is why we need to have discussions that may make you and others uncomfortable.

A simple question that seems to get asked over and over.

The general idea coming forth from DU'ers is "Yeah racism/classism/etc exists, we are democrats, progressives, we are all for changing things for the better for everyone". When someone brings up white privilege it is assumed it is for discussion about the idea and what to do about it.

What is it that DU'ers should do about the issue that people don't see that they are already doing? White people - both men and women, have it easier than those of other races overall on a broad scale. We get that. On an even bigger scale we know that the wealthy get a lot more privilege than anyone else, so even a privileged white person is often a victim of privilege themselves.

We are all victims of the very select few (those in power/wealth). Pointing out that I have more generic privilege than someone else is all fine and dandy - but since I am not myself doing anything to perpetuate that in my life I don't feel guilt over it at all.

So what do you want others you don't know but are cursed with privilege that they cannot change to do about it? Vote for a progressive party? Check.

The reactions people get on DU over this is similar to other things really. Meta is gone, we want to try to call out others who are not showing enough outrage over an issue so we toss something out there directed at the people on DU and then pounce when they don't seem pure enough. "You aren't as upset as I am!".

I have been posting about the Nigerian school girls like crazy. That covers everything from privilege to sexism to the media to international issues and the role of the US. Barely a peep. Real issue involving lots of issues but it is not about DU'ers and their reactions so the most vocal on those issues just pass on by.

Had it been a few hundred white kids taken in a mostly white country you bet the news would be on it. Republicans would be all over Obama for not doing more. But the news ignores it. Up until people got vocal we didn't see much from anyone on it. And here on a progressive board where a subject is filled with all the things we say wrong with things is on display it gets ignored as well -- maybe because people aren't as interested in the issue and this problem but want to spend more time grinding axes and trying to show others how bad a place DU is.

A real issue, real people, but not meta enough to fan flames. Make it about DU itself and the posters here and suddenly it is important enough to hop into.

I mean, as a white guy I certainly don't assume I "get" racism better than a person of color would. And all these comments to the effect of, "Yeah, racism exists, but it's not that bad" coming from people who haven't experienced systemic racism - at least not firsthand - just strike me as ignorant and cringe-worthy.

We can't heal wounds, in this culture, until people openly and unashamedly acknowledge them.

"You try to tell the young people today that & they won't believe you".

"Check your privilege is all about trying to perceive the world through eyes other than your own."

Which, obviously, people like Tal Fortgang have no interest in doing. But Dems/progressives should be better than that.

It's fine to point out that there are difficulties a poor minority will face that a poor white person wouldn't. But I think we would all see the problem if a white American responded to a black American bringing up racial discrimination by lecturing them that they have to admit their privilege as an American. Unfortunately, when the privilege is wealth and not race, some of the more well off whites don't see the problem with lecturing the poor whites about having to admit that they're privileged.

Which doesn't mean that white people from less affluent backgrounds can just say "I'm poor" and weasel out of this discussion. I've seen a few on DU try that tack and it's really unbecoming of a progressive.

discussion. I've seen a few on DU try that tack and it's really unbecoming of a progressive."

I'm pretty sure all of us would be offended by the quote above. Yet such statements about the poor aren't uncommon. Like I said, all of the bourgoisplaining doesn't really help a discussion on privilege, though it seems a number of people think it's exactly what's needed.

But the fact that millions of white people aren't well off does nothing to disprove the existence of white privilege. That was my point, in a nutshell.

You seem to be able to understand the problem with saying that if a middle-class black person is being told that they need to admit they're privileged by a middle-class white person, and the black person responds by bringing up racism, then they're just trying to weasel out. Do you disagree that such a dismissive statement is evidence that the white person is blind to their own privilege, and as such probably shouldn't be lecturing others about it? Likewise, do you understand why those here who are blind to their socioeconomic privilege (among other privileges) and make dismissive remarks probably aren't the best people to be lecturing others about how they need to admit they're privileged?

But I'm just tired of white people thinking that being from a less-than-wealthy background lets them completely off the hook RE: racism. I mean, it's not like cops go around shooting working-class white men. And if they did, you wouldn't see other white men jumping up and defending said cops. And this is just one example of many I could use.

your sentence and see how it sounds. If a middle-class black American says they don't feel particularly privileged because of the racism they've experienced, is the correct response "I'm just tired of middle-class people thinking that being black lets them completely off the hook RE: classicism"?

In the absolute sense, just about everyone is privileged in some respect. But as I said before:

"I think we would all see the problem if a white American responded to a black American bringing up racial discrimination by lecturing them that they have to admit their privilege as an American."

I agree that people need to be aware of institutional discrimination (I think most here do), and be aware how such discrimination gives them less competition in many aspects of life (I think very, very few people anywhere grasp the full extent of this). But I don't think we get there by having people with privilege x lecture people without privilege x that they have to admit they're privileged, and that the only reason why they would ever bring up privilege x would be to weasel out of said acknowledgement.

You kind of caught me in a bad mood, I guess. But my annoyance at white people downplaying racism, shouldn't blind me to my own faults or oversights.

privilege and male privilege are more prevalent in those places.

when I moved from a lilly white small town area to large, diverse city, white privilege became much easier to spot and understand.

It is going to happen until we get treated fairly. Period. And we will not be sugar coating things to make the majority comfortable. We ourselves are uncomfortable day and night and until that stops we are going to speak out loudly and proudly. Everyday. Welcome to the New America y'all. Ain't nobody shutting up and sparing you our voices again.
Women.. We will not shut up. Ever!!! That horse left the barn.
Black people... We will not use words to make you feel better about the degradation we suffer on a daily basis at the hands of the white majority. We will not negotiate with you about which words we will use to speak our pain.

You job is to end the racism in this country by standing with us, not arguing semantics with us or diminishing our experience.
It is not your job to define words for us or to tell us to words things differently.
If you want to tell us how to say things to make white men comfortable, i have a list of a billion things white men say on a daily basis that make me uncomfortable. Work on them first before you start lecturing the oppressed on how to speak out.


You are lecturing the wrong folks here.

I agree 100%.

Someone had to tell him.

A completely reasonable and understandable statement. But some will still take it as a personal attack, sadly.

Is very self centered. I deserve fair and equal treatment and i demand it. Anyone who doesn't want to hear me and those like me shouting it from the roof tops, better hurry up and work to fix the system that is rigged against me. Because with demographics being what they are, the situation may flip in my grandkids time and it will be their (white male) descendants being profiled and left out of the convo with a minority/women dominated system replacing the white male dominated one we have.
My kids will be fine.

People take every damn thing personally because they think it's all about them.

"We ourselves are uncomfortable day and night and until that stops we are going to speak out loudly and proudly. Everyday. Welcome to the New America y'all. Ain't nobody shutting up and sparing you our voices again."

on a left-of-center website like DU.

Granted, you might find an occasional un-reconstructed poster who votes Democratic because Lincoln was a Republican, but he or she is the exception that prove the rule, and the rule is this: we all know that African-Americans have been enslaved, have been discriminated against even after slavery ended, were subject to de facto slavery under the share-cropper system and Jim Crow laws and disenfranchising, and even after the Civil Rights movement largely eliminated the worst abuses, lingering discrimination and racism remain.

This is a given, and you won't find real debate about it here.

Questioning the value of using a term like "privilege," which is what the OP did, is not the same as debating whether racism exists.

Why have two words for the same thing?

Hint--because it isn't the same thing. Racism is a discriminatory act against someone because of their race. Privilege is NOT discriminating against someone because of their race and in fact giving that person some kind of special treatment. For instance, the simple fact that most TV shows and advertisements feature whites as the main characters is privilege--it's not racism exactly.

White privilege is racism.

The fact that tv shows are geared towards white people is racism manifesting itsself in the form of white privilege. It is racism, exactly.
Racism is bigotry with a system to back you up.
Everywhere you see white privilege manifest itself in society, that is racism. White privilege is whites having a leg up over everyone else, just because they are white.

The courts are racist. The jails. Our institutions suffer from white privilege, which is racism.


You can't tell me that whites getting preference over all other races (white privilege) while not suffering the same indignities en mass (oppression) is not racism.
Think about it.

Don't use the term "privilege"--use the term "racism," since it's the same thing.

Accept it, apologize for it, and understand how others have suffered because of it.

My life's sorrow will be written in my epitaph as "He was a Cherokee whose great grandparents were on the Dawes Rolls, but he looked White, so fuck him, he was privileged".

I'm sure if I looked, I could find stories of hardship among my ancestry, which as far as I know essentially consists of Scottish and Lithuanian peasant folk. But that has no bearing on my present-day status as a white male in American society.

And no one is saying "fuck" anybody, except maybe those who insist on being willfully obtuse.

Society sees me as white. Since my twenties I've checked the "Native American" box in the ethnicity section of every form I've ever filled out and it's NEVER hindered my job applications.

My Father is white. I look "indian" to some.

My Mom is ONE GENERATION off of the Reservation.

High time to stop arguing about privilege.