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Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:13 AM May 2014

Evil Snowden has made it harder to track Terrorists, or something like that.

With the knowledge that no Terrorist attack has been prevented due to NSA surveillance, we must view this claim that Snowden has helped our enemies with a bucket of salt in lieu of the normal grain. We've already seen the claim that dozens of attacks have been thwarted thanks to these fine programs utterly discredited.

So what is the claim today from those who love to track everyone? Snowden has made the jobs of the NSA harder. Supposedly the AQ forces are using different encryption. China and Russia have changed their encryption systems, and even get this, changed their phone numbers and now we don't know who to listen to.

Allow me to quote the last two paragraphs of the story.

In the meantime, hostile groups such as al-Qaeda have lost no time in exploiting the gap in our intelligence-gathering capabilities to strengthen their position, with all the implications that is likely to have for our own future security.

Certainly, if countries like Russia and China were to gain the advantage at our expense, or groups such as al-Qaeda launched a successful terror attack, then Snowden’s treacherous betrayal might not seem to have been such a good idea after all.


We already know that no attacks were prevented because of this spying. We know that because the claims of General Alexander were utterly discredited by Democratic Senators Wyden and Mark Udall. We know that the NSA failed to detect the Boston Bombers despite their travel to an area that was presumably on the watch list, and despite warnings from the Russians. We know that the NSA failed on thousands of fronts to detect anything important to national security while eavesdropping on German Chancellor Merkel's phone calls. Because the threat of Terrorism or attack on the United States being launched by Germany was exceedingly high or something.

Part One of the Frontline PBS report on the NSA and how they invade every aspect of our lives is here. I am more troubled than you can imagine by the cavalier attitude of Bush Co. and the cronies toward the Constitutional protections. That bothers me tremendously, and is IMO unforgivable. But here is the problem I am really having. Why did Democrats continue it with the pseudo protection of the FISA court? I call this pseudo protection because the programs when challenged in "regular" court are dismissed not on the merits, but on technicalities. When you object to the tracking/monitoring of your cell phone, since you are unable to demonstrate real "harm" then this violation of your privacy by the Government is perfectly acceptable. The most recent decision that prevented a challenge to the indefinite detention of American Citizens by the Military was thrown out because the person challenging the law was themselves not under detention.

Let me repeat that for you. The only way you could challenge being indefinitely detained without access to a lawyer would be to actually be indefinitely detained without access to a lawyer. So take heart, those people who are held in black prison sites all around the world now have the freedom to file a lawsuit, presuming that anyone ever hears from them again.

The arguments from the Federal Government that justify these programs are some of the lamest things I've ever heard. The Government argues that they can't tell people how many cell phones have been monitored illegally because that would violate the individuals right to privacy. So we can't violate the right to privacy by informing the people who's right to privacy has been violated?

Snowden hasn't made it harder to track terrorists, because we weren't tracking them using these programs. We were tracking business secrets of other countries. We were tracking any individual who came to our attention, but we were not tracking terrorists with any success.

We were making a mockery of the Constitution, and turning ourselves into a third world country where the Constitution is written in pencil for all intents and purposes.
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Evil Snowden has made it harder to track Terrorists, or something like that. (Original Post) Savannahmann May 2014 OP
It just isn't worth it, in my view. LuvNewcastle May 2014 #1
Have people decided that our problems can't be fixed through the political process? sendero May 2014 #5
so you think the idea of ACA, relieving millions of americans from past hardships Whisp May 2014 #14
That is one thing that those who argue for the unrestrained actions of the NSA fail to realize Savannahmann May 2014 #7
This message was self-deleted by its author randome May 2014 #15
Praise be to Comrade Snowden nt Cryptoad May 2014 #2
How does your little snip have relevance since Russia is no longer communist? Enthusiast May 2014 #6
It's called deflection. Dr. Strange May 2014 #26
Snowdenghazi! Snowdenghazi! GoneFishin May 2014 #28
Kicked and recommended a whole bunch! Enthusiast May 2014 #3
Yes and ditto Demeter May 2014 #4
I know hootinholler May 2014 #8
You can never go home again Demeter May 2014 #9
I really don't want to digress, but it's a question of party over principle. Savannahmann May 2014 #10
We did not have a regime change. truedelphi May 2014 #17
I watched the whole thing Aerows May 2014 #11
I wonder if Snowden can take a peek at Obama's Mom's record while she was CIA? Whisp May 2014 #18
The astonishing thing is that was just part one. Savannahmann May 2014 #20
Watching how the Silicon Valley has accomplished NSA goals is really going to hurt. ancianita May 2014 #25
So you don't wanna believe the truth about Snowden - truedelphi May 2014 #12
Who to believe? A bold faced lying Putin propping traitor or the unregulated? uponit7771 May 2014 #13
The poor, defenseless, NSA is askeert of Snowden and spotlights. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2014 #16
What? ProSense May 2014 #19
It's interesting when the Snowden team is ask what part of the Constitution has been violated they Thinkingabout May 2014 #27
"Frontline" did a Great Job...and I look forward to Part 2 next week. KoKo May 2014 #21
I agree completely. Savannahmann May 2014 #23
To emphasize: the NSA has not stopped a terrorist attack or caught any terrorists riderinthestorm May 2014 #22
pm kick nt riderinthestorm May 2014 #24
K & R GoneFishin May 2014 #29
K&R. JDPriestly May 2014 #30

LuvNewcastle

(16,847 posts)
1. It just isn't worth it, in my view.
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:43 AM
May 2014

Even if they caught a terrorist with this program of theirs, which they haven't, it still wouldn't be worth the invasion of everyone's privacy. The government simply doesn't have the right to do what they've been doing. Corporations don't have the right to track us, either. That also needs to stop.

The government and the corporations are trying to make a world in which there is no such thing as privacy. I think it's disgusting. We need a few new amendments to the Constitution, and one of those amendments needs to enshrine the right to the citizens' privacy. I think that was the intention of the Fourth Amendment, but they have been routinely ignoring that amendment for a long time now, and they claim that it doesn't even apply to modern technology. So basically, they've made it worthless.

We can't allow this shit to continue, because it will just get worse if we don't stop it now. The question is, when will Americans get fed up enough to do something about all this? How bad will things have to get before people say "enough?" They can't even bother to go to the polls. Have people decided that our problems can't be fixed through the political process? If so, what is the next logical step from there?

sendero

(28,552 posts)
5. Have people decided that our problems can't be fixed through the political process?
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:28 AM
May 2014

The answer is clearly "yes". I was a last-ditch holdout but no more. Both parties are bereft of ideas, beholden to special interests, and while I will continue to vote I have zero confidence that it is any more than a waste of time.

The solutions to our problems are pretty straightforward, but as they are not in the interest of the 1%, they are not going to happen.

And as for the NSA, they are great a collecting data but then they have no idea what to do with it. If it were up to me I'd slash their budget to 10% of what it is now and tell them to see if they can focus on their real mission.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
14. so you think the idea of ACA, relieving millions of americans from past hardships
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:06 PM
May 2014

and the recognition of gay rights to marriage and equal treatment is bereft?

Both parties are Not the same. That's b.s. and embarassing.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
7. That is one thing that those who argue for the unrestrained actions of the NSA fail to realize
Fri May 16, 2014, 10:08 AM
May 2014

The ends never justify the means. The Bill of Rights was intended much like the Ten Commandments were intended. The Ten Commandments are between the creator, and the individual. It is taken that way. You as the individual shall not do these things. It doesn't say that the Priest shall council you not to do this thing, and shall judge if you have done these things. It says thou shall not...

The Bill of Rights was intended much the same way. Take the first amendment. It does not say "The Supreme Court shall find invalid any law which..." It says Congress shall pass no law. The Bill of Rights was intended to be a covenant between the founders, and the generations to come. We have seen the responsibility abrogated to the courts. Congress passes laws and admits that they think the court will find it unconstitutional. Then why did you pass it is the question I am always shouting at my TV.

The actions of the NSA disturb me. The arguments before the court astonish me. The fact that the court agrees with these asinine arguments makes me ashamed.

Response to Savannahmann (Reply #7)

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
6. How does your little snip have relevance since Russia is no longer communist?
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:38 AM
May 2014

Last edited Fri May 16, 2014, 08:46 AM - Edit history (1)

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
3. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:53 AM
May 2014

I wish DU readers would take this seriously. Ever get the feeling that something is fundamentally screwed up with our nation? It is becoming more obvious by the day.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
4. Yes and ditto
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:15 AM
May 2014

But DU is not what it once was, either, to my everlasting regret and the shame of those that have perverted it.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
10. I really don't want to digress, but it's a question of party over principle.
Fri May 16, 2014, 11:02 AM
May 2014

Within the last week, there have been calls to arrest Bush, and Cheney, and all the Bush Co. cronies there are for the crimes they committed during their reign. I am not only sympathetic to that feeling, I am even supportive to some extent. But what really depresses me now is that the nation continues on this path. We have had a regime change. We've had the end of the dolts, and the introduction of the Harvard educated to the White House. But things are almost exactly the same as they were.

I am a student of history. I read a lot of History and one of the things I remember from these studies is Eastern Europe during World War II. At first, the people were happy to see the Germans arrive and drive the Soviet's out. The pictures show people meeting the "invaders" with gifts of salt and bread. Flowers appear out of no where to welcome the liberators. Then the flyers start to go up, and the new rules look a lot like the old rules. Punishment for any infraction is death. The only difference is the language of those inflicting the inhumane upon them.

I would expect Bush Co and their ilk to make arguments before the court like the ones we've heard of. I would expect that from the RW and the Neo-Cons. I never expected it from our side. now you see part of why I feel ashamed.

I don't feel better knowing that a Democratic Appointee is the one overseeing the illegal and unconstitutional spying today as opposed to a RW tool. It isn't the letter after their name that offends me. It's the spying that is unsupportable. Wrapping it in the guise of the FISA court hasn't made it legal any more than the challenges dismissed by the courts has made it right.

I too wonder if the liberal movement has become so shallow that we are willing to accept the intolerable because it's done by our side. I am a Liberal, who is a Democrat. I am not a Democrat who happens to be Liberal. I dislike the RW because of their actions, not because they belong to another political party. It is the actions not the party I find objectionable, and those same actions are done by those I support. That is what makes me embarrassed, and even ashamed of my country.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
17. We did not have a regime change.
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:07 PM
May 2014

We had a phoney baloney, get our party a charismatic speech maker, someone whose need for approval is such that he will give a speech in March that contradicts what he said in November, without any affect showing in his facial expression, or his eyes or his soul.

Obama was exactly the hope and change the one Percent wanted. A person who cannot be critiqued, because to do so is to invite charges of racism. Whose skin color has appeal for all the third world people that we need to convert as sign on's to the TPP, so that their banking systems will suck like ours, so that their farmers are growing GMO crappola, so that their sick people have to pay through the nose to obtain drugs, so that their communication and internet fees go soaring ever skyward just like here in this "democracy" of ours.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
11. I watched the whole thing
Fri May 16, 2014, 12:44 PM
May 2014

Wow. That is some hard hitting journalism and it was high time people started acting like journalists, but given the harassment they allege, it's easy to see why they didn't!

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
18. I wonder if Snowden can take a peek at Obama's Mom's record while she was CIA?
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:09 PM
May 2014

If he can see my groceries flashing before his screen/eyes, he can probably provide some proof of that too.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
20. The astonishing thing is that was just part one.
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:54 PM
May 2014

There is at least one more part. The reveals in this part are the kind where you just open your eyes and stare disbelieving at the screen. I paused it several times while it was on and walked outside to allow the impact to settle. Infuriating, astounding, and even shocking, and I keep repeating, this is just the first half.

ancianita

(36,101 posts)
25. Watching how the Silicon Valley has accomplished NSA goals is really going to hurt.
Fri May 16, 2014, 08:57 PM
May 2014

I'll never buy a Cisco router again.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
12. So you don't wanna believe the truth about Snowden -
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:03 PM
May 2014

That back in 2005 he hand clubbed baby seals?

Well, you just might be a terrorist!

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
19. What?
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:14 PM
May 2014
Snowden hasn't made it harder to track terrorists, because we weren't tracking them using these programs. We were tracking business secrets of other countries. We were tracking any individual who came to our attention, but we were not tracking terrorists with any success.

We were making a mockery of the Constitution, and turning ourselves into a third world country where the Constitution is written in pencil for all intents and purposes.

So you disagree with point that Snowden's leak "made it harder to track terrorists," but instead you're claiming his leak interfered with NSA's mission (call it whatever you want to "tracking business secrets " or "tracking any individual&quot ?

Then you claim that overseas activity is "making a mockery of the Constitution."

What the hell does overseas spying have to do with the Constitution?

You are simply proving that Snowden's actions went well beyond domestic surveillance issues.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
27. It's interesting when the Snowden team is ask what part of the Constitution has been violated they
Fri May 16, 2014, 09:12 PM
May 2014

can not deliver the answer. You know and I know it simply isn't there. Though information is not delivered on individual cases of prevention of an attack through surveillance it is simply because if the details is released then the methods would be compromised. I doubt the programs Snowden stole information is still in operations at this point. New programs are implemented and this will continue.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
21. "Frontline" did a Great Job...and I look forward to Part 2 next week.
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:54 PM
May 2014

All DU'ers should watch it...especially the younger ones who aren't as aware of the history of what went on under Bush II and even before which has escalated as the technology has improved.

Thanks for the post. 's

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
22. To emphasize: the NSA has not stopped a terrorist attack or caught any terrorists
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:07 PM
May 2014

Yet they have these enormous powers - with a legal rationale so secret it was kept in Cheney's safe and only shown to a select few. I wonder where that document is now....

Doubters were/are accused of "potentially having the blood of hundreds of thousands of American lives on their hands" if they were at all uncomfortable with the unconstitutionality of the NSA, CIA and Administration actions.

The Frontline show is must-watch tv.

Big K & R

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