General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOn "Bitch" and other Misogynist language
A refresher, because sadly, it seems to be necessary.
Yes, this time the person who used it used it in another country. That does not change the meaning of the word, no matter how hard you wish and hope and believe that to be true.
Note: I did not edit out slurs. Then again if this OP was alerted on the basis of the slurs in it, well... that would just be par for the course, wouldnt it?
1. The Brits use it. Some segments of British society are indeed fond of using the word cunt a lot. There are pubs in London where three seconds doesn't go by without someone shouting "yeh feckin' cunt!" at his or her mate. And that really has nothing to do with its use at an American blog about American politics.
It also, btw, has nothing to do with whether it's intrinsically sexist. There are also bars in America where not three seconds pass without one guy calling another guy a fag. The frequency of its use in specific regional areas doesn't make it not homophobicin those areas, or anywhere else.
Relatedly, the attempt to rip misogynist slurs from their roots to try to redefine them doesn't fly. "I'm using it in the European way" is just a cynical ploy to justify the continued use of misogynistic language that feels good to use. "Asshole" just doesn't have the zing! of "cunt," which is why we get these tortured explanations about how "cunt" isn't being used in the misogynistic way, but in the British or European way, where the word's ubiquity is fallaciously used as evidence that the word has lost all its meaning.
Throwing around the word cunt as if it has no meaning anymoreor some "new" meaning separate from genderis ignorant and lazy, and contributes, in spite of all protestations to the contrary, to a culture of inequality.
...
http://www.shakesville.com/2007/11/on-bitch-and-other-misogynist-language.html
greatlaurel
(2,004 posts)Education is important.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Archae
(46,337 posts)Or can I get into trouble just for that, comparing her to a plastic airheaded fashion doll?
Mr_Harshaw
(19 posts)Response to Mr_Harshaw (Reply #41)
Post removed
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)perfectly ok with the "sarah palin is a cunt" t-shirts that some so-called progressives were sporting during the 2008 election.
Archae
(46,337 posts)Have I used the term "bitch?"
Yes.
A few women go out of their way to over-qualify for that term.
Like Anne Coulter.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Sometimes the word is applicable.
Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #112)
Post removed
pintobean
(18,101 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)Do you think that "nigger" and "faggot" are "sometimes applicable?
If not, you need to re-think your attitude, because that word only describes a woman's vagina,
so unless you think: A. Vaginas are dirty and disgusting and B. Women aren't "people", and can
be reduced to their dirty, disgusting "cunts" you won't make it on a progressive board.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Yep your post was alerted on ...and I think I know who did it. Glad it wasn't hidden. Tired of the churchianty crowd infecting the jury pool.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)I find the hypocrisy amusing, though.
I didn't alert on anything in this thread, in case anyone is wondering. It may look that way because of my reply to the hidden post above.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Idiocy Never Sleeps.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)That's pretty cowardly.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)never came up, so I don't know wtf your talking about.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)"Yes, their panties are all in quite the knot over it..
or perhaps I should say their briefs.
Some are actually reaching back to the seventies and eighties to reference the regional, little used 'bitchin'"
in American vernacular."
I then replied with a post that did nothing but show the search results for the term in question, complete with various contemporary dictionary entries. That was enough to get me booted from your safe haven. Or should I say "protected rear base," where you call on the troops to go fight the good war against your fellow DUers. Kinda reminds me of the Contras, who would go ravage and pillage in Nicaragua, then retreat to their secure bases across the border in Honduras to regroup for the next attack.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)So what's your problem?..Did you get your little feelings hurt when
you got booted from my supposed 'safe haven'?
It seems so, so I gotta tell ya -- I'm not the one who got you
booted -- all I did was reflect on the amount of work you did
to make a minor point and then try to educate you to the
bigger picture.
That being said, I gotta tell ya, Grumps, you won't get much sympathy here, because lots of women, myself included, have been booted from the "protected rear base" of many an insecure anti-feminist here, so I guess that's just how it goes.
As DU tells its prospective members, "If you're thin-skinned, you might not want to become a member".
I'd suggest you consider that, and toughen up lest you become that saddest of souls, The Whiney White Guy who gives It Out but Can't take it.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)There's plenty of things you can call that woman without making derogatory remarks about her gender.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Calling women "bitches 'n' hoes". White rappers as well as black ones.
Disrespecting women.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)me want to smash the radio. all it is is fighting words, swearing, and threats with some bass in the background that little punks play to try to look tough.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)anti-social in the Personality Disorder sense of the word.
TexasTowelie
(112,252 posts)I can tolerate a little of it interspersed into the lyrics of some music as long as the profanity and slurs are kept in check. However, it all sounds the same whenever I attended a half-hour or an hour event. There is very little originality or music involved in 98% of it though and I grow weary of the thumping bass beat.
alp227
(32,034 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)I grew up on that shit. If a beat has a good hook it's hard not to groove to it.
And awful lyrics are not unique to rap music. Delia's Gone, Down by the River, Delilah, etc. The tradition of singing about outright killing women is not from rap but from country, rock, etc. So people hating on rap need to step off.
Squinch
(50,956 posts)It's everywhere.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)is also very misogynist.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)out there to choose from, that doesn't require a woman to suck up an insult every 30 seconds.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And your hyperbole is just that. Demonizing that music is a popular pastime, but the truth is most popular music has misogynist messages. Most media has misogynist messages as well.
Throd
(7,208 posts)It was an Aussie using it the Australian way.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It is like when teenagers defend using 'gay' as an insult. They insist they don't mean it that way.
The word means what it means. Dictionaries which ignore etymology do not change anything. People in other countries using it a lot does not change anything.
People here say "bitch" all the time and pretend that that means it has different meanings and some of them are OK. They're not. They're all problematic. Any thoughtful person knows this.
Throd
(7,208 posts)And enjoy framing the act of challenging cultural misogyny as tilting at windmills. You won't stop anyone but you'll definitely have some... er... interesting company in that as you watch the rest of society move forward on this.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Here's my thinking on this whole thing: I no longer use the word "dick" to describe a man, because I want to be consistent. But "jerk" is better and can be applied to either gender.
I used to love the word "bitchy" as it applied to smug people being condescending and unnecessarily whining and complaining. I now say "pissy." Again, either sex can be "pissy."
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I am so tired of people trying to dissuade others with that tired message.
They said the same thing about stopping bullying and so many other 'hopeless' challenges
Seems to me they're simply happy with the status quo and would rather others didn't go rocking the boat.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)it. Just in my lifetime there have been so many changes in the language that it is mind spinning. People who can't get with the zeitgeist are left behind in the dust (so to speak...lol)...
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It's a misogynist word that is more often used in that country than ours, but any time someone tells someone they're horrible by comparing them to a female body part, that is the way we're talking about. Being outside of America, or more common someone else, doesn't make it stop being misogynist.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)as some have lamely suggested, that we are "demanding"
that OZ and the UK do as we do IN their own countries
or on boards where the majority are NOT offended by it.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)too bad we can't just use one thread to discuss the exact same thing. Well not really the same topic, but the exact same thing. Hell, I've had to hide threads containing the word Misogynist because of them.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)I'm a female who just gets tired of seeing the exact same thing over and over and over again when trying to read through this forum.
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)but not sexism? Is it just a function of not seeing women as important enough?
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Is it just a function of seeing the lgbt community as a side issue?
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)and have said so repeatedly. I have not, nor would I ever, mocked it as you have concerns about sexism and misogyny.
I despise all forms of discrimination against subaltern groups, as my posting history makes clear.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Just ignore me already if seeing these threads is such a terrible burden for you. Christ.
IronLionZion
(45,462 posts)2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)It's not that I don't agree with you for the most part. It's when I try to read latest threads that the same thing again and again and again. And mostly everyday at that. Basically the overkill has made me avoid the subject anymore.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I don't start threads every day. But do feel free to ignore me. Posts in which people derail threads to make the discussion all about themselves aren't my favorite kind.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)OMGLOL!!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Thanks for keeping thIs kicked!
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)Not all queens are royalty.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Response to redqueen (Reply #35)
Post removed
redqueen
(115,103 posts)OK bye bye now.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I would rethink that gif... but on second thought maybe it is perfect.
- Regina George was a "plastic" someone who is fake, a troll in a sense.
- Regina George had a burn book. Basically a device she used to stalk, torment, and hurt other people around her.
- Overall Regina George is spiteful, superficial, and hurtful.
Interesting gif choice, in my opinion.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)not that invested in it really.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Puglover
(16,380 posts)my Friday would have been without this "refresher".
It boggles the mind. Read through the thread that inspired this. You will not believe it.
I am afraid there is no other choice but to send drones to Australia.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Puglover
(16,380 posts)Busted. I'm gay, married and live in Ecuador. God, some of these posters would simply implode down here.
And yet it's paradise IMHO.
ancianita
(36,101 posts)I did read the original and served on the jury to deny to hide a thread.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)So she started this thread as a continuation.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I tried just kicking someone else's thread about this but couldnt so I just reposted this part.
Thanks for helping to keep this kicked though!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Let's just try to keep the posts within community standards this time, OK?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)as if that was a valid hide...and as if much worse isn't allowed to stand with depressing regularity here.
delta17
(283 posts)What constitutes a valid hide?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)When someone doesn't like one of my posts, and alerts on it, and it gets hidden, that, by contrast, is a "monstrous outrage".
Happy to help.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)In the post of mine that was hidden I referred to someone's campaign to get me banned because I had the temerity to point out that MRA talking points were posted on DU. (A fact that has since been acknowledged by most here, but at the time this was considered a shocking allegation )
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)All because he had the gall to tell you that in Australia 'c**t' isn't used the same way it is in the US, and it's not a gender slur here.
Here's a link to the well-deserved hide.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4962108
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Back when I was the only person saying that MRA talking points were posted on DU, he campaigned to have me banned for it. Apparently he considered my saying that to be a horrible, awful thing to do. Much worse, apparently, than actually posting such talking points.
Maybe this post will be hidden too for daring to refer to his actions. Whatever. I'm used to such bullshit now.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)You attacked another DUer and accused them of defending MRA's. Yr post deserved to be hidden.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)being posted on DU.
What in the hell do you think he was defending, Violet_Crumble?
Please, tell me.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Don't blame you really.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)It must be important to you that I reply so here goes yet another head meets brick wall moment:
Yr hidden post told another DUer that they support MRAs. Without seeing the alert my guess is that's why it was hidden as it was a personal attack. Rather than starting a new thread after being locked out of the original one and trying to justify why juries should ignore yr attack on another DUer you should use the hidden post as a learning moment and try to get yr messages across in future without attacking other DUers
redqueen
(115,103 posts)That's what I said.
He was trying to have me banned for saying that MRA talking points were posted on DU.
Who do you think he was defending by trying to have me banned? It seems to me the only possible option is that he was defending those on DU who post MRA talking points.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)If you want to run round attacking other DUers then you take yr chances with a jury. You lost that gamble. I'd suggest sucking it up and stop blaming others for yr own bad behaviour but I'm aware that would fall on deaf ears
pintobean
(18,101 posts)of bringing that crap to DU.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)So it's rather ironic that when one type of gender hate is glaringly obvious to everyone else it's ignored, but manages to find other types under every rock when nobody but the peanut gallery manages to see it.
If it quacks like a duck...
redqueen
(115,103 posts)You are seriously confused.
Your little quest to paint certain people as transphobic bigots or transphobic bigot sympathizers requires evidence. Evidence from this board, you know. The kind that can't be faked by obsessive stalkers.
You know, the kind I provided which showed you defending Warren Farrell's date rape apologia.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The alert failed brilliantly, BTW, but I'm sure you already knew that.
On Sun May 18, 2014, 12:07 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Same poster was one of the biggest defenders of two transphobic bigots who got bounced
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4969337
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This is a flat out lie and a very nasty one. Rude is putting it mildly and it is definitely disruptive.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun May 18, 2014, 12:13 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If it;s a lie, the Alerter should address it in the thread.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If you want me to hide something, make the case. A accusation just won't cut it with me.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The author makes a valid point IMO. And I might add
wanting to hide a post is taking a cowardly way out of an argument. LEAVE IT
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I couldn't make heads or tails of this thread chain. - confused.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
redqueen
(115,103 posts)quoting the same off site board.
Here's a hint, try not linking to things other people say, or things you think I said elsewhere.
For example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=905760
And here's more from Farrell, the man you're defending there by quoting decades old, bullshit studies.
"We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting." - Warren Farrell, in Myth of Male Power
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Then you continue to stalk me in the same message.
Brilliant!
Anyone who cares to follow all the links (including the one you just provided), can find out all they need to know and I've already answered your previous stalk, so why you insist on repeating it seems a bit curious. One would think you'd want to be ReallyQuiet about it, but it doesn't bother me much that you aren't.
Have a nice week as I'm done here for now, but do continue if you wish.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Thanks for not pretending you weren't defending Warren Farrell this time, at least.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)my posting became less and less during that time. I got tired of mostly men claiming victim status because someone said white male privlege is a thing.
Puglover
(16,380 posts)It's a "refresher" doncha know.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Thanks for keeping it kicked!
Puglover
(16,380 posts)And always in need of refreshers ya know.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Don't like it? -- Go somewhere else.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)In which they talked about how cool their car was.
Does that sort of usage constitute a misogynistic slur?
Language is a living thing, and contested terrain, I suppose.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)OK then.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)When I was young, we used "bitch" the same way - if something was cool and great, it was "bitch". That was in the midwest in the 60s and early 70s. I believe bitchin originated on the west coast and moved east during the 70s, replacing "bitch".
bitch·in
[bich-uhn]
adjective Slang.
marvelous; wonderful.
Also, bitch·en, bitch·ing [bich-ing, -uhn].
Origin:
bitch + -in, -en informal or dialectal variant of -ing2 (here forming nonparticipial adj.)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bitchen
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I know the song and I know how they spelled it. Christ.
Some people just love to argue.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)You don't say?
pintobean
(18,101 posts)to be educated. Maybe I'll try a refresher next week.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Considered socially acceptable because 'that's just how it is' with the willingness to enter a discussion of the same to nitpick about my having corrected the incorrect spelling of a song title.
Exactly the same kind of argument to you, I know.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)So...yesterday I was notified that I was being slagged (not by name) in the HOF as some sort of pathetic loser who resorted to pointing to a rarely used 1970s or 1980s vernacular like "bitchin'" to defend, er, something or other.
So I responded to the post in question. The title of my post was "Here's the Google Search Results for Bitchin'" and that's what I posted, the first page of the search results. That's all.
Ya know, HOFers, if you're gonna have your little safe haven, maybe you shouldn't use it to slag other community members, and then block them when they respond. That's just chickenshit.
Anyway, here's the offending post:
bitch·ing
ˈbiCHiNG/
USinformal
adjective
adjective: bitchin'
1. excellent. "a bitching new album"
adverb
adverb: bitchin'
1. extremely. "it's bitchin' hot, ain't it?"
Urban Dictionary: bitchin
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitchin
Urban Dictionary
Dude, look at that bitchin '32 roadster with the black pinstriping. Also written bitchen or bitchin' - and ALWAYS pronounced BIT-chin. by The Zootramp ...
Bitchin - Merriam-Webster Online
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bitchin'
Merriam‑Webster
slang : remarkably bad : detestable <of all the bitchin' luck>. 2. slang : remarkably good or cool <a bitchin' car>. See bitchin' defined for English-language ...
Bitchin' Kitchen
bitchinlifestyle.tv/
Nadia Giosia
Welcome to Nadia G's Bitchin Kitchen. Find recipes, videos, culture tips, and more. ... Bitchin' Kitchen Sizzle Reel · more videos · SK-NG-02 ...
Bitchin' - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitchin'
Wikipedia
Bitchin' is the seventh studio album by the American hard rock band The Donnas, released in 2007 on their own label Purple Feather and released through ...
Nadia G's Bitchin' Kitchen : Cooking Channel
www.cookingchanneltv.com/.../nadia-gs-bitchin-kitche...
Cooking Channel
Hilarious, entertaining and deliciously demented, Nadia G's Bitchin' Kitchen is a comedy-cooking show based on the wildly popular web series.
bitchin' - definition of bitchin' by the Free Online Dictionary ...
www.thefreedictionary.com/bitchin'
TheFreeDictionary.com
bitch·in' or bitch·en adj. Slang. Excellent; first-rate. [Alteration of bitching, from (son of a) bitch.] bitchin' (ˈbɪtʃɪn) or bitching. adj. 1. wonderful or excellent. adv.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)I got booted for defending myself in a thread there after multiple call-outs of me (by name). My "offending" post was alerted and went 7-0 to leave it.
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/125542939#post31
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Really?
Wow.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)Doesn't this get away from the white male privilidge discussion we've been having recently.
seaglass
(8,173 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)And I'm sorry it's still necessary.
It took years to get people to stop thinking prison rape was actually a big deal and not just a joke or something to wish on someone, so I'm sure this will take much longer. We're still not there on rape culture or sexual objectification, either. But this website skews toward an older demographic. Somehow younger generations manage to grasp things that older ones just can't wrap their minds around.
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)On "Bitch" and other Misogynist language
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024962951
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Posting the "c" word on DU is over the top no matter who does it. Hide
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri May 16, 2014, 02:48 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't play those games here. I bet any amount of money this alerter falls over herself defending c. .t when used as an insult by men but objects to a discussion of it as sexist. A certain alerter is known to make dishonest alerts along these lines. That anyone would think it acceptable for posts insulting women as "c. . .s" to remain while alerting on one that speaks to the misogyny of such language is itself offensive beyond belief. I hope the administrators have a good look at this alerter.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: What is going on, alerter? Please read TOS and SOP, there is nothing in the OP that is
against the rules that I can measure for you. Leave it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Open, intelligent discussion about certain words
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Seriously?? This post was an information thread. What a waste to alert on it
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Give me a break. To discuss the usage of a word, you have to be able to say the word itself. Otherwise we're all going to become the Knights Who Say Ni and end up shrieking and holding our ears because we can't use the word 'the' or some nonsense like that. The use was purely analytical and not pejorative.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I fuckin knew it!
Predictable as ever, aren't they?
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)So I could serve as a juror on it.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Ah well.
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)I take that as no real justification.
reflection
(6,286 posts)I am utterly humiliated that I said the forbidden word as "the" and not the proper "it." I've seen that movie over 30 times and still screwed it up.
RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I just served on a jury for what I consider a benign post of hers (in this thread).
I voted to leave it alone (of course, it was a benign post)
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)Happens to many of us.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)It's really childish, and it happens a lot. On all sides.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)I never see anything about who alerted when I do Jury duty, unless I somehow have completely overlooked that? I wouldn't think so because it doesn't really seem germane, but...?
Am I missing something? Or are they just responding to who they -think- -might- have alerted?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I can name the Alerter in Five Names.
I can name the Alerter in Four Names.
I can name the Alerter in Three Names.
I can name the Alerter in Two Names.
I can name the Alerter in One Name.
NAME THAT ALERTER!!
Shandris
(3,447 posts)Maybe I'm too old for it or something, I dunno.
Name That Alerter. I like that.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I know this isn't a Real Court but, a person deserves to know/face one's Accuser.
I think it would cut out a lot of the "game playing" alerting.
Alas, I am not on the payroll and they don't listen to me anyway
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)They are sometimes referred to as a "bitch" or "bitches" in the case of a litter of females.
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)Refer to female dogs as bitches all you like. That is the proper use of the word. Nothing wrong with it.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)However I do hear people say this with some frequency. I can recall as a child we had purchased two collies from a breeder. She visited our home to check on them several months later and referred to them as "bitches" and I looked at my mom and dad like "WTH is she calling my dogs bitches for?"
At any rate, I've found it's generally a bad idea to call women by that word. And also a bit uncouth.
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)Sir, you are only a Lord and not good enough of Stature to ask questions of a Queen.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'm sure some types find it amusing but it's really just annoying.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)But not really
one_voice
(20,043 posts)out I say 'what up bitches' they're both female.
Every time my cousin comes to visit he walks in and says 'what's up bitch'. Then again he calls everyone a bitch, he says he gets to cuz he's gay.
I have a friend that calls me her 'sister bitch'.
I don't like s*ut, w*ore, etc. I especially hate the *c* word, but bitch doesn't bother me in the least.
I get that in the other thread that the *c* word means something different in Australia.
951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)RiffRandell
(5,909 posts)LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Honestly do you actually think you're making valid points?
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)It's rather lame, actually.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)would you?
.Anyone who has studied the psychology of minorities and disenfranchised populations knows that
such groups frequently , not to mention tragically, internalize the contempt in which they are held.
If your white male privilege makes you're blissfully ignorant on that score, I'd suggest you educate yourself.
Response to redqueen (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,760 posts)Sadly, they get away with it far to often.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Threads full of defenses of misogynist slurs, rationalizations for the wage gap, etc.
If they're not shouted down they assume most people agree with them.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)Warpy
(111,280 posts)when describing certain members of the right wing kennel.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Although it has quite a lot to do with its use by a British person in Britain, or for that matter an Australian in Australia, where the cultural context around the word is significantly different, as are its connotations. This strikes me as yet more "Americans lecturing people on what they should find offensive". Is it the most offensive word it's possible to use in an American context? Yes. Does American use define English usage worldwide? No, it does not.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't have the same meaning in the UK, or Ireland, or Australia, or New Zealand, that it does in the US. In Commonwealth English its use is equivalent to "arsehole", only somewhat stronger. The fact that it has different meanings and connotations in the US doesn't change that fact. One would probably never hear an American male calling another man a cunt, for instance. A pussy? Yes, which has an entirely different connotation in American colloquial use of "weak and unmanly".
Here, have a British feminist calling a dreadful misogynist a cunt: http://ssy.org.uk/2011/01/giles-coren-what-a/
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Toodles.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)You're wasting your time trying to lecture Australians and people in the UK on how they should see "cunt" as a horribly offensive misogynist slur, yes, when its usage in Australia and the UK is significantly different to its generally specifically misogynist use in the US where it's almost invariably used as a term of abuse for women.
Again I refer you to the Cambridge Dictionary of British English (note that the first definition given is "stupid or unpleasant person", regardless of gender): http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/cunt
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It's really sad that people here are so compelled to defend these slurs.
And I know many people from the UK and Ireland. A few from Scotland. And while it is more commonly used there, the word is what it is and no amount of wishing will change it. It isn't just Americans who are able to grasp this concept.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)You may have a very definite idea of what the word means. That doesn't map onto its usage by non-American speakers of English, though.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)as they are for those who insist that using 'gay' as an insult is fine, or 'bitch', etc.
Sorry but the world is evolving. You don't have to like it but you can't stop it.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Your American definitions are not the only ones. Further reading for you from a British perspective:
The distinct differences in usage in these non-US cultures means that we cannot simply assume an American paradigm, not least if to assume it is to impose it. If, as I'd argue, the UK and Australian paradigm is at very least free of "cunt" as a term comparable to "nigger" or "faggot," blindly accepting a taboo on "cunt" as misogynist hate-speech here may be like blindly accepting that we should henceforth stop using "arselicker" because it is and can only be a grossly homophobic slur vis-a-vis the practice of rimming. All that would achieve is to kill the "ingratiating toady" meaning and put a new tool in the homophobe's arsenal (no pun intended) of insults. Score one for the bigots.
At the end of the day? If the discourse is aimed at tackling misogyny, it's undeniable that "cunt" carries a "bitch whore slut monster" meaning in one use, but if we suspend all uses of the word on that basis, we're surrendering all other meanings, surrendering it to the misogynist fucks who'll happily use it with that meaning now here in the UK, when previously if they'd done so they'd have been called "cunts" for it. This doesn't seem like an ideal strategy to me. It's like surrendering "gay" rather than reclaiming "queer."
Maybe I'm being a daft cunt here, pissing into the wind, but sod it, the UK culture in which those two italicised phrases in this sentence are equally innocuous seems an infinitely preferable paradigm to me.
http://notesfromthegeekshow.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/cunt.html
redqueen
(115,103 posts)theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Wish I hadn't read that.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)when I first learned that "fag" in England is slang for a cigarette.
I was watching some British TV show in syndication in the US and heard the characters going on about needing a fag.
Although I don't use any of these potentially objectionable words in daily use, I do believe the usage of all words changes over time. Back when "You suck" or "Disco sucks" was becoming popular (late '70s, early '80s), I remember my stepfather (who had been in the Navy and could swear like a sailor) saying they shouldn't be saying that on prime-time TV. Also, back in the early '80s, I remember my uncle chuckling over commercials for "Wang" computers. When I asked him why he was laughing, he said that when he was a kid, "wang" was slang for "penis". He just thought it was funny that they'd get in big trouble for saying the word back then, and now it was being advertised on television.
Like him, I also love George Carlin's critique of "two-way words" where a word is bad in one instance but not bad in another:
"But, there are some two-way words. There are double-meaning words. Remember the ones you giggled at in sixth grade? 'And the cock crowed three times.' 'Hey, the cock crowed three times. It's in the Bible.' There are some two-way words, like it's okay for Curt Gowdy to say 'Roberto Clemente has two balls on him.' But he can't say, 'I think he hurt his balls on that play, Tony, don't you? He's holding them. He must have hurt them, by God.' And the other two-way word that goes with that one is prick. It's okay if it happens to your finger. Yes, you can prick your finger, but don't finger your prick."
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It still means "female genitalia" but people like to call people it more often and use it more casually. It's still misogynist. Just those countries are more OK with that.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Meaning evolves with use. The Cambridge dictionary of British English lists the meaning "a stupid or offensive person" ahead of the meaning "the female genitalia". In common use in the UK (and presumably Australia) it's not a word directed at women.
Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #114)
gollygee This message was self-deleted by its author.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Your experience and understanding of US English usage doesn't apply to Australian or British English. The name for what you're doing, I think, is "Yanksplaining" (v. - An American earnestly attempts to inform non-Americans why their US-based perceptions of something are the only ones that are applicable.)
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I've had this conversation with my husband because I didn't want him using that word around our daughters. How does it affect girls to grow up hearing their dads put down other people by using a word that means - to everyone everywhere, even if it's also used to mean something else - "female genitalia? He agreed and at least doesn't use it around the girls. The word is casually used there and people aren't concerned about the misogyny, which I guess is up to them and I don't really care what people I'm not related to in another country use when I'm not around, however it's still misogynist.
ancianita
(36,101 posts)use. You may well also man-splain these words across cultures. I could claim that women know a 'normed' rationalizing when they hear it. Such explanations sound fair minded. But what exists for half the planet is the psychological and physical minefield of language use that goes with the public [read 'male'] space they have to occupy -- legal definitions, naming rights, threatening words, fighting words, manipulations, condescensions, jokes, etc -- that women are conscious of, but will not fight to the death about with those who presume the privilege of denying women's consciousness about their status.
As a former English/Linguistics major, I've heard your explanations before. The more conscious one is about meanings and their history, the less others' word uses seem to be, but the social effects are the same regardless of intention. I think women across continents suck up unconscious sexist language with grace. There might be a time when it doesn't matter, but that time's not here yet. You're only going to convince about half of us about this.
I respect the spirit of redqueen's attempts here, for all the attitude she has to suck up.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Reminds me of the Americans who earnestly tried to explain to the Danes why their traditional blackface Christmas character was offensive. Because of America's legacy of slavery and minstrel shows, naturally.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that don't bother us that much but which would be very offensive in Britain, etc.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)We need to find an Englishman/woman!!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Largely because many Americans don't know what it means.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)i.e. "he likes to bitch and moan about his job"
I'm not trying to fuck with you here, but I can see where one could make the argument for either side, and was wondering what your thoughts were.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I don't hear a lot of cultural messages about female dogs complaining any more than male dogs do. I do hear plenty about women complaining more than men (e.g. nagging, general gender stereotypes). So yes, it is hard for me to believe that anyone could be meaning 'this person is complaining a lot about things I don't care about, similar to the way a female dog would'.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I hear it used all the time by men and women to mean complaining or whining. And directed at both men and women.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Do you think calling something a straight person does 'gay' is any less a homophobic insult just because the target is straight and not engaging in homosexual sex?
The 'but it's used against men too' argument is so bankrupt of logic that it actually pains me to see it so often here.
It's like men who call other men "pussies." The obvious insinuation is that the target of that slur is less than a "real" man, or less of a man...and therefore, more like a woman.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)the word as a noun where it's used as demeaning synonym
for "woman".
Keep trying -- Some day you may actually able to grasp it.
ancianita
(36,101 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)the demographics of DU skew toward people in their fifties and sixties. There's nothing more surreal than watching adults with homes and jobs and maybe kids in college arguing over dirty words.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Of course. I expect no more from you.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)BIGOTED SLURS are different. Why don't you start a thread about the fine semantic difference between bigoted slurs and dirty words? Why don't you explain the difference between using a dirty word as a bigoted slur and a bigoted slur used as a dirty word? That should be interesting.
Certain words as maledictions in and of themselves might have made sense in the fourteenth century. Not so much now.
ancianita
(36,101 posts)ancianita
(36,101 posts)important in history, and how women later see word use gets framed as irrelevant.
http://www.amazon.com/Women-Ideas-What-Have-Done/dp/0044408323/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
redqueen
(115,103 posts)ancianita
(36,101 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)When a person can't just admit they were wrong, and instead chooses to shout louder, it's just... embarrassing.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'm only to happy to know that we again disagree
Marr
(20,317 posts)Accuse the person who's pointed out that you're wrong of being a mens' rights activist/moustache-twirling patriarchy villain.
It's ridiculous and again, embarrassing to watch.
ancianita
(36,101 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I can provide links, but there's so many of them by now if you count all the other people apart from me that have been telling her the same thing, that I wouldn't know where to start...
Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #140)
Post removed
Marr
(20,317 posts)Pick a post at random in this thread and it's likely either such an explanation, or an insult + refusal to acknowledge it as such from the OP.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024961462
ancianita
(36,101 posts)kinda cheap point scoring while ignoring other things.
I'm sick to death of how people keep "bringing to my awareness" other business that's been chewed and regurgitated ad nauseum on these threads, but I don't go jump down their throat about it in their threads.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Then you're wrong.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Where she was lecturing me, as well as others, about how the word was used in Australia. Now she's started a new thread to give us a 'refresher' about how the usage of words in other countries must be the same as in the US...
Logical
(22,457 posts)Sissyk
(12,665 posts)the last time this came up, but thanks for the refresher, just the same.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)Men and women all over this country use the word "bitch" and "bitching" and "sonovabitch", there is no connotation of "inequality" between the genders unless some dude just goes about calling women "bitches" without discrimination. Mainstream culture has decided that's the way that it is and you just need to deal with it and stop being so easily insulted by things that aren't meant to insult you.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)down with this excuse.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)Actually I said if someone goes around calling women, in general, "bitches", that's not ok. But if I stub my toe and say "sonuvabitch", that's fine. If I tell someone to stop bitching at me, I don't feel that's an attack on women. And on the off chance a particular woman is a really mean and nasty person, I see nothing wrong with calling her a bitch no more than I see calling a particular mean and nasty man a dick head or a prick.
I see no need to make an excuse because I'm not doing anything wrong and I take the real issues of gender inequality far too serious than to entertain the notion that this trivial nonsense plays any important role in an honest discussion about the plight of women in our society. Lets talk about equal pay, the attacks on woman's choice, protecting women in physically abusive relationships, breaking glass ceilings and the various other injustices with some actual meat to it.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)OK Americans... What's the "N" word? You know it.... but we don't say it unless we find ourselves fired, blackballed, hidden, given pizza, in a fight, ridiculed or you are black.
OK you Germans... What's the "N" word? You know it... but you don't say it unless you find yourselves fired, blackballed, hidden, in a fight, ridiculed or you actually are one.
Americans? Your "N" word is Ni..er. We don't say it or write it unless we are racist or we are black.
Germans? Your "N" word is Nazi. You don't say it or write it unless you are a racist or you are a Nazi.
Americans say Nazi this, Nazi that, Your a Nazi, She's a Nazi, I'm a grammar Nazi, those RWs are all Nazis. To Germans, that's abhorrent and insulting.
Germans say Neither "N" word out of respect for blacks who have equal rights there, although doing black face in schauspiel is not out of form. The Nazi Party is banned.
Definitions are treated very differently in other cultures. If a German comes to America and hears a flippant use of the word Nazi it is as nerve grinding as Americans saying ni..er. Get the picture? Words AND culture matter.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)they feel that that's "not what they meant" by it.
The word has no alternate meaning. That's it. People are having a blast quoting dictionaries, as if that changes anything.
These are the same kind of people who use "bitch" toward men and think that makes it not misogynist because "it's directed at a man".
It's just nonsense. No amount of insisting that it means something else now and that's how they are using it now changes anything.
Just as with so many who tried to do it with "that's gay!" or "that's retarded!" these people will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming away from the reflexive need to defend oppressive, socially unacceptable bigoted slurs.
It doesn't matter how much anyone desperately wishes to use offensive terms and claim they're meant in a non-offensive way, the terms themselves are loaded, and no matter how hard people wish and how deeply they believe, that is simply reality.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Last edited Sat May 17, 2014, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)
You would think some folks might try using more of them for a change rather than whine because the few they prefer using are slurs. Of course, that would require using a dictionary to expand one's language rather than brandish it about as a pathetic defense for why they should be able to call someone a c---t.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)illogical bullshit excuse it is, especially after we've recently seen 'gay' and 'retarded' become socially unacceptable.
But no, that's how desperate some people apparently are.
Any excuse or rationalization will do, no matter how bankrupt of logic.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)For example, beating a woman may be acceptable in Saudi Arabia, indeed, whenever the subject of how women are treated in the Mid East comes up, there are usually people who come on the internet or television, giving us the "how provincial you Americans are" speech, where the response is usually some genuine criticism about the ways we indeed suck, but mixed with a not so healthy amount of bullshit. I do not care how many Quran verses or statistics the talking heads quote, it is wrong.
The fact is, wrong is still wrong, and all the years of tradition do NOT MEAN A DAMN THING! Yes, in Australia , they may call each (that word) all they want to, but that does not change the fact it is has a nasty meaning, based on the idea that you use a feminine term for nasty thing. I know many Aussies would hate this word, but frankly, even if they did not, I would say "Well, that just shows you have some growing up to do."
Call a man a c word, great, you have just reinforced the idea that if a man is feminine, he deserves to get insulted. Ever wonder why military trainers love to use that word on recruits? because they want to rip the feminine side out of them so they be will better killers (with a bit a rapist on the side.) And then we wonder why every time there is a war, the incidents of Rape go sky high, or why so many veterans wind up becoming rapists when they get home.
The only silver lining to the potential collapse of civilization is that tradition will be revealed as an old shell. On second thought, no, because lo and behold, the would be priests and priestesses will be around to say "civilization had to go to revive tradition!" and the old, stupid traditions will continue, with women getting the brunt of it.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It indeed is intended as "a nasty name for a nasty thing" and no amount of hoping and wishing will change it.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Slurs that have a long history of being used to denigrate and demean women, or for that matter, other socially marginalized groups (historically and currently). Surely there are other words that we can use?
Furthermore, this is a progressive forum, right?
Right?
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Some are really not willing to give up their oppressive slurs. This fight will be a long one.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)But I'm not going to make excuses, I'm simply going to make an effort to find other ways to express myself. Even those of us who know better need a reminder once in a while. Thanks!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)We all grow up absorbing more or less the same messages. Especially where women are concerned.
Nikia
(11,411 posts)If someone informs you that a certain term aimed at a group of people is offensive, the decent thing to do is apologize and stop using it.