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redqueen

(115,103 posts)
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:14 PM May 2014

On "Bitch" and other Misogynist language

A refresher, because sadly, it seems to be necessary.

Yes, this time the person who used it used it in another country. That does not change the meaning of the word, no matter how hard you wish and hope and believe that to be true.


Note: I did not edit out slurs. Then again if this OP was alerted on the basis of the slurs in it, well... that would just be par for the course, wouldnt it?

...

1. The Brits use it. Some segments of British society are indeed fond of using the word cunt a lot. There are pubs in London where three seconds doesn't go by without someone shouting "yeh feckin' cunt!" at his or her mate. And…that really has nothing to do with its use at an American blog about American politics.

It also, btw, has nothing to do with whether it's intrinsically sexist. There are also bars in America where not three seconds pass without one guy calling another guy a fag. The frequency of its use in specific regional areas doesn't make it not homophobic—in those areas, or anywhere else.

Relatedly, the attempt to rip misogynist slurs from their roots to try to redefine them doesn't fly. "I'm using it in the European way" is just a cynical ploy to justify the continued use of misogynistic language that feels good to use. "Asshole" just doesn't have the zing! of "cunt," which is why we get these tortured explanations about how "cunt" isn't being used in the misogynistic way, but in the British or European way, where the word's ubiquity is fallaciously used as evidence that the word has lost all its meaning.

Throwing around the word cunt as if it has no meaning anymore—or some "new" meaning separate from gender—is ignorant and lazy, and contributes, in spite of all protestations to the contrary, to a culture of inequality.

...

http://www.shakesville.com/2007/11/on-bitch-and-other-misogynist-language.html
210 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
On "Bitch" and other Misogynist language (Original Post) redqueen May 2014 OP
Thank you for posting this. greatlaurel May 2014 #1
My pleasure. redqueen May 2014 #46
What should we call Caribou Barbie then? Archae May 2014 #2
You could call her by her name...? Mr_Harshaw May 2014 #41
Post removed Post removed May 2014 #165
yeah, and what are repubs going to call obama?? you're so funny. i bet you were TheFrenchRazor May 2014 #55
I never have called a woman that. Archae May 2014 #62
if the shoe fits Niceguy1 May 2014 #112
Post removed Post removed May 2014 #154
Are you trying to be as offensive as possible? pintobean May 2014 #158
No..He's trying to make legitimate analogies. whathehell May 2014 #167
If the shoe fits? whathehell May 2014 #166
Alert fail! L0oniX May 2014 #175
Wasn't me. pintobean May 2014 #177
Thanks LOoniX...Vigilance is important, for as we know whathehell May 2014 #184
Hey, if you want to talk crap about me, do it in this thread. Don't hide in the HOF. Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #188
Excuse me, bro..but I was responding to LOoniX & your name whathehell May 2014 #189
You referenced my post in your sneering comment Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #193
Sneering, schmeering..You do your share of that yourself. whathehell May 2014 #196
A moron? Hippo_Tron May 2014 #130
Thank you. n/t whathehell May 2014 #190
That's why I don't like rap, among other reasons. Manifestor_of_Light May 2014 #3
word. it's not ok just because it's set to "music." rap music seriously makes TheFrenchRazor May 2014 #57
Agreed -- It's hostile, misogynistic & just generally whathehell May 2014 #202
There is very little to like about rap music. TexasTowelie May 2014 #63
Here's a more delightful rap song. alp227 May 2014 #181
Fuck yes. redqueen May 2014 #183
The Beatles sang "You better run for your life if you can, little girl." Squinch May 2014 #210
I like a lot of rap. I also like rock which while it isn't as up front about it redqueen May 2014 #64
agreed, so why the heck do you like it???? there is a whole lot of other music out TheFrenchRazor May 2014 #157
Rap and R&B have a beat that no other form of music can match. redqueen May 2014 #182
Except in the other thread it wasn't being used in the "American" way. Throd May 2014 #4
Like I've said repeatedly, it is still misogynist. redqueen May 2014 #5
I'll leave you to your lance and windmills. Enjoy your weekend. Throd May 2014 #8
You too! redqueen May 2014 #14
good reposte, redqueen! CTyankee May 2014 #60
Thanks! redqueen May 2014 #78
On thing about language is that it is always changing. It's the amazing thing about CTyankee May 2014 #87
It is still misogynist gollygee May 2014 #11
Yup, and by the way, that opinion does NOT mean, whathehell May 2014 #192
wow, this is the third thread I've seen from you on this topic 2pooped2pop May 2014 #6
The patriarchy wants it confined to just one thread Capt. Obvious May 2014 #7
captain obvious, apparantly not all things are obvious. 2pooped2pop May 2014 #9
How is it that you care about racism BainsBane May 2014 #27
How is that you don't care about homophobia? Capt. Obvious May 2014 #98
I most certainly do care about homophobia BainsBane May 2014 #176
... redqueen May 2014 #12
I like that pic a lot IronLionZion May 2014 #16
never done that before but I might have to 2pooped2pop May 2014 #19
You're confused. redqueen May 2014 #20
and you think I'm the one that's confused? 2pooped2pop May 2014 #21
I can so tell that you'd rather be reading other threads redqueen May 2014 #22
I do believe I have pinpointed the problem now. 2pooped2pop May 2014 #26
... redqueen May 2014 #35
Post removed Post removed May 2014 #40
Um redqueen May 2014 #53
Here is a bit of history on Regina George... Agschmid May 2014 #81
I used it for the text not the character redqueen May 2014 #85
Well there it is... Agschmid May 2014 #86
Ouch! Cha May 2014 #134
I am sitting here wondering just how empty Puglover May 2014 #15
That's a typical MRA type response Capt. Obvious May 2014 #17
Oh dear. Puglover May 2014 #89
Could you please say what MRA means? Just asking, because I can't find it in the DU glossary. ancianita May 2014 #125
lol 2pooped2pop May 2014 #23
She had a hidden post in the previous thread on this, so is locked out of it. Nye Bevan May 2014 #51
No I wanted to set the record straight. redqueen May 2014 #56
You're more than welcome. Nye Bevan May 2014 #61
LOL, the hilarious thing is that you might actually be serious... redqueen May 2014 #66
I'm kind of new here. delta17 May 2014 #80
When I don't like someone else's post, and I alert on it, and it gets hidden, that's a "valid hide". Nye Bevan May 2014 #84
Something that actually should be hidden. redqueen May 2014 #92
Yr post deserved to be hidden. You accused another DUer of defending MRAs... Violet_Crumble May 2014 #127
LOL, wrong. redqueen May 2014 #128
No, I'm right. I linked to yr hidden post to allow people to read it for themselves... Violet_Crumble May 2014 #133
He was trying to have me banned for daring to call out the fact that MRA talking points were redqueen May 2014 #163
Guess you don't want to make up another reason why he was trying to have me banned for saying that. redqueen May 2014 #201
I'm guessing since you've replied to my post twice Violet_Crumble May 2014 #206
"Anyway don't you have a DUer spouting MRA-talking points to defend somewhere?" redqueen May 2014 #208
And it's what you said that got yr post hidden Violet_Crumble May 2014 #209
I can't believe that you're proud pintobean May 2014 #153
Same poster was one of the biggest defenders of two transphobic bigots who got bounced Major Nikon May 2014 #186
What the everloving fuck are you talking about now? redqueen May 2014 #197
... Major Nikon May 2014 #198
You're linking to the same tag team of obsessed stalkers redqueen May 2014 #199
So you complain about people "stalking" you... Major Nikon May 2014 #204
I wasn't stalking you - I was in that thread. In the same conversation. Right there, same thread. redqueen May 2014 #205
hey I 'member those days... Kalidurga May 2014 #207
Nuh uh. Puglover May 2014 #90
Glad you're finding it so interesting! redqueen May 2014 #93
I'm a helper! Puglover May 2014 #94
So what?...She can post as much as she likes. whathehell May 2014 #191
The Dead Milkmen had a song called "Bitchen' Camaro." Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #10
Do you see the word 'bitchin' (not "bitchen') in my OP? redqueen May 2014 #13
Thanks. Good to know. Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #75
It can be spelled either way. pintobean May 2014 #97
Its a fucking song title pinto. redqueen May 2014 #99
"Some people just love to argue." Capt. Obvious May 2014 #102
I guess she's not in the mood pintobean May 2014 #105
Yes, we can count on you to compare challenging the idea that misogynist slurs should be redqueen May 2014 #106
Yep, you don't like to argue Capt. Obvious May 2014 #108
Oh my. pintobean May 2014 #103
More on "bitchin'." The post that got me booted from the HOF: Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #187
Welcome to the club. pintobean May 2014 #195
Do you really not understand why bringing up this term in this thread is pathetic? redqueen May 2014 #200
Finally a new meme Calista241 May 2014 #18
Thanks for this post rq. n/t seaglass May 2014 #24
My pleasure. redqueen May 2014 #43
Jury results BainsBane May 2014 #25
LOL! redqueen May 2014 #29
Glad I hadn't posted in this thread BainsBane May 2014 #30
Me too. I'm disappointed in the one juror who went along with the idiotic ruse. redqueen May 2014 #38
No comment BainsBane May 2014 #42
Although I was proud to be Juror #7, reflection May 2014 #45
Proud to be #6 RockaFowler May 2014 #49
Well someone (or ones) are really trying to shut redqueen up etherealtruth May 2014 #74
PWF BainsBane May 2014 #82
I wish people would quit trying to game the system to shut up people they don't like. Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #76
Erm...how does Juror 2 know who alerted? Shandris May 2014 #113
Looks like they are "betting" that they can guess who is the alerter ... Tuesday Afternoon May 2014 #146
I don't think I'll ever get used to some of the forum games. Shandris May 2014 #147
Honestly, I agree with you and, I think it was a bad call that Alerters are anonymus. Tuesday Afternoon May 2014 #148
What about female dogs? LordGlenconner May 2014 #28
Are you a dog breeder? BainsBane May 2014 #31
No, not a breeder LordGlenconner May 2014 #33
Agreed. BainsBane May 2014 #34
Sir 4Q2u2 May 2014 #36
Don't be fatuous. redqueen May 2014 #37
Sorry to offend LordGlenconner May 2014 #39
Every morning when I let my dogs... one_voice May 2014 #122
Yo yo yo... check it... 951-Riverside May 2014 #32
I love Missy; this is also a great tune with her and Ciara. RiffRandell May 2014 #44
Missy is obviously a misogynist LordGlenconner May 2014 #48
And Black people who say the N word are all racist! Yeah bro! ^5! redqueen May 2014 #59
Trying to jazz the thread up LordGlenconner May 2014 #65
Missy may be a self-hating female, but you wouldn't know anything about that sort of thing whathehell May 2014 #164
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words May 2014 #47
Within the letter of the rules, I guess, if not the spirit (nt) Nye Bevan May 2014 #52
... redqueen May 2014 #69
the MRAs love the 'I didn't mean it THAT way' excuse... Ohio Joe May 2014 #50
They sure don't get called on it often enough IMO. redqueen May 2014 #70
Thank you. this stuff gets a pass far too often from so-called "progressives." nt TheFrenchRazor May 2014 #54
I find the word very handy Warpy May 2014 #58
... Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #67
Look up the etymology. nt redqueen May 2014 #71
I'm familiar with the etymology. Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #73
LOL... I'm wasting my time with you too. redqueen May 2014 #77
I can take it that you've never lived outside the US. Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #88
And 'bitch' is used against men and women but guess what? redqueen May 2014 #91
Prescriptivist, much? Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #95
The cries of 'but that's not how we meant it!' are as meaningless for this word redqueen May 2014 #96
Language evolves too, sorry to say Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #100
Wow. nt redqueen May 2014 #101
No kidding. I suddenly feel the need to bleach my eyes theHandpuppet May 2014 #160
I remember how surprised I was deutsey May 2014 #107
It has the exact same meaning. It's just used more casually. gollygee May 2014 #109
Not really, no. Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #114
This message was self-deleted by its author gollygee May 2014 #117
Except it's not a specifically misogynist slur in non-US usage. Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #120
Oh bullshit gollygee May 2014 #121
In an unconscious patriarchal ocean that women swim in, you may well explain a 'normed' word's ancianita May 2014 #124
"Yanksplaining"- great word. Nye Bevan May 2014 #150
Now I am curious to know if there are any words treestar May 2014 #110
LOL! That is a great question!! Inkfreak May 2014 #123
"Wanker" is more offensive in the UK than in the USA. Nye Bevan May 2014 #149
Is the word "bitch" used in the context "complaining" an issue? hughee99 May 2014 #68
IMO yes. redqueen May 2014 #72
I think "bitching" may have escaped its root word's gender-bound slur status. Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #79
Why do you think the sex of the target makes a difference? redqueen May 2014 #83
+1 YoungDemCA May 2014 #168
Again, Comrade, the word as adjective or verb is unlike whathehell May 2014 #203
I highly recommend Australian Dale Spender's book, Man Made Language, just to kick this up a notch. ancianita May 2014 #104
Just about in time for the 10 year anniversary! Warren DeMontague May 2014 #111
As I recall... rrneck May 2014 #115
Of course you conflate "dirty words" with BIGOTED SLURS. redqueen May 2014 #116
Ah. I forgot. rrneck May 2014 #118
For those who could use a visual, notice which word's at the top. It's about consciousness. ancianita May 2014 #119
One more recommendation, just to give a political context of history writing. Frame who's ancianita May 2014 #126
Thank you for all your posts. nt redqueen May 2014 #129
You're one of my sheroes here. ancianita May 2014 #137
I'm embarrassed for you. Marr May 2014 #131
LOL! Given your posting history on feminist issues redqueen May 2014 #132
That seems to be your only trick. Marr May 2014 #136
Please quote anywhere any claim that proves her wrong. ancianita May 2014 #138
I've proved her wrong multiple times on her claim that the word is a sexist slur in Australia... Violet_Crumble May 2014 #140
Post removed Post removed May 2014 #143
It's been posted to her about fifty times. Marr May 2014 #142
Well, I happen to agree with the OP. Ganging up on one point ignores the spirit of the OP, which is ancianita May 2014 #144
You agree with the OP about what? That everyone uses US definitions for english words? Marr May 2014 #145
I wish the Yankspainers would try to stay within community standards (nt) Nye Bevan May 2014 #151
What prompted this post? Some breaking news story? nt Logical May 2014 #135
It was prompted because she was locked out of the original thread... Violet_Crumble May 2014 #141
LOL, ok, that explains it. Not not a shock really. nt Logical May 2014 #161
Some of us have not changed our minds since Sissyk May 2014 #139
Sorry but its all in your head. phleshdef May 2014 #152
so if women get called bitches A LOT, then it's ok? sorry if not all of us are TheFrenchRazor May 2014 #156
I'm not making any excuses. And thats not what I said. phleshdef May 2014 #159
On word definition differences in different cultures, defacto7 May 2014 #155
How they feel about it matters not at all. The word does not have a whole new meaning just because redqueen May 2014 #162
988,968 words in Webster's Dictionary theHandpuppet May 2014 #171
You would think "but they don't mean it that way!" would have been abandoned as the patently redqueen May 2014 #172
The same can be said for many things DonCoquixote May 2014 #178
Great post. You make excellent points. redqueen May 2014 #179
I don't get why some people here are so defensive about using obvious gendered slurs YoungDemCA May 2014 #169
+100 theHandpuppet May 2014 #170
Did you notice the hidden post upthread? Someone referred to a Republican woman as a b****. redqueen May 2014 #173
Have to admit, I've used that word in the past theHandpuppet May 2014 #174
As have most of us, I'm sure. redqueen May 2014 #180
I agree Nikia May 2014 #185
... 99Forever May 2014 #194

Archae

(46,337 posts)
2. What should we call Caribou Barbie then?
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:21 PM
May 2014

Or can I get into trouble just for that, comparing her to a plastic airheaded fashion doll?

Response to Mr_Harshaw (Reply #41)

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
55. yeah, and what are repubs going to call obama?? you're so funny. i bet you were
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:24 PM
May 2014

perfectly ok with the "sarah palin is a cunt" t-shirts that some so-called progressives were sporting during the 2008 election.

Archae

(46,337 posts)
62. I never have called a woman that.
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:36 PM
May 2014

Have I used the term "bitch?"

Yes.

A few women go out of their way to over-qualify for that term.
Like Anne Coulter.

Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #112)

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
166. If the shoe fits?
Sat May 17, 2014, 02:33 PM
May 2014

Do you think that "nigger" and "faggot" are "sometimes applicable?


If not, you need to re-think your attitude, because that word only describes a woman's vagina,

so unless you think: A. Vaginas are dirty and disgusting and B. Women aren't "people", and can

be reduced to their dirty, disgusting "cunts" you won't make it on a progressive board.

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
175. Alert fail!
Sat May 17, 2014, 04:27 PM
May 2014

Yep your post was alerted on ...and I think I know who did it. Glad it wasn't hidden. Tired of the churchianty crowd infecting the jury pool.

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
177. Wasn't me.
Sat May 17, 2014, 04:36 PM
May 2014

I find the hypocrisy amusing, though.

I didn't alert on anything in this thread, in case anyone is wondering. It may look that way because of my reply to the hidden post above.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
188. Hey, if you want to talk crap about me, do it in this thread. Don't hide in the HOF.
Sun May 18, 2014, 12:44 PM
May 2014

That's pretty cowardly.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
189. Excuse me, bro..but I was responding to LOoniX & your name
Sun May 18, 2014, 12:48 PM
May 2014

never came up, so I don't know wtf your talking about.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
193. You referenced my post in your sneering comment
Sun May 18, 2014, 01:26 PM
May 2014

"Yes, their panties are all in quite the knot over it..

or perhaps I should say their briefs.

Some are actually reaching back to the seventies and eighties to reference the regional, little used 'bitchin'"

in American vernacular."

I then replied with a post that did nothing but show the search results for the term in question, complete with various contemporary dictionary entries. That was enough to get me booted from your safe haven. Or should I say "protected rear base," where you call on the troops to go fight the good war against your fellow DUers. Kinda reminds me of the Contras, who would go ravage and pillage in Nicaragua, then retreat to their secure bases across the border in Honduras to regroup for the next attack.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
196. Sneering, schmeering..You do your share of that yourself.
Sun May 18, 2014, 02:48 PM
May 2014

So what's your problem?..Did you get your little feelings hurt when
you got booted from my supposed 'safe haven'?

It seems so, so I gotta tell ya -- I'm not the one who got you
booted -- all I did was reflect on the amount of work you did
to make a minor point and then try to educate you to the
bigger picture.

That being said, I gotta tell ya, Grumps, you won't get much sympathy here, because lots of women, myself included, have been booted from the "protected rear base" of many an insecure anti-feminist here, so I guess that's just how it goes.

As DU tells its prospective members, "If you're thin-skinned, you might not want to become a member".

I'd suggest you consider that, and toughen up lest you become that saddest of souls, The Whiney White Guy who gives It Out but Can't take it.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
130. A moron?
Fri May 16, 2014, 10:26 PM
May 2014

There's plenty of things you can call that woman without making derogatory remarks about her gender.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
3. That's why I don't like rap, among other reasons.
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:23 PM
May 2014

Calling women "bitches 'n' hoes". White rappers as well as black ones.
Disrespecting women.

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
57. word. it's not ok just because it's set to "music." rap music seriously makes
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:27 PM
May 2014

me want to smash the radio. all it is is fighting words, swearing, and threats with some bass in the background that little punks play to try to look tough.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
202. Agreed -- It's hostile, misogynistic & just generally
Sun May 18, 2014, 07:05 PM
May 2014

anti-social in the Personality Disorder sense of the word.

TexasTowelie

(112,252 posts)
63. There is very little to like about rap music.
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:36 PM
May 2014

I can tolerate a little of it interspersed into the lyrics of some music as long as the profanity and slurs are kept in check. However, it all sounds the same whenever I attended a half-hour or an hour event. There is very little originality or music involved in 98% of it though and I grow weary of the thumping bass beat.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
183. Fuck yes.
Sat May 17, 2014, 05:57 PM
May 2014

I grew up on that shit. If a beat has a good hook it's hard not to groove to it.

And awful lyrics are not unique to rap music. Delia's Gone, Down by the River, Delilah, etc. The tradition of singing about outright killing women is not from rap but from country, rock, etc. So people hating on rap need to step off.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
64. I like a lot of rap. I also like rock which while it isn't as up front about it
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:36 PM
May 2014

is also very misogynist.

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
157. agreed, so why the heck do you like it???? there is a whole lot of other music out
Sat May 17, 2014, 04:19 AM
May 2014

out there to choose from, that doesn't require a woman to suck up an insult every 30 seconds.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
182. Rap and R&B have a beat that no other form of music can match.
Sat May 17, 2014, 05:53 PM
May 2014

And your hyperbole is just that. Demonizing that music is a popular pastime, but the truth is most popular music has misogynist messages. Most media has misogynist messages as well.

Throd

(7,208 posts)
4. Except in the other thread it wasn't being used in the "American" way.
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:29 PM
May 2014

It was an Aussie using it the Australian way.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
5. Like I've said repeatedly, it is still misogynist.
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:44 PM
May 2014

It is like when teenagers defend using 'gay' as an insult. They insist they don't mean it that way.

The word means what it means. Dictionaries which ignore etymology do not change anything. People in other countries using it a lot does not change anything.

People here say "bitch" all the time and pretend that that means it has different meanings and some of them are OK. They're not. They're all problematic. Any thoughtful person knows this.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
14. You too!
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:20 PM
May 2014


And enjoy framing the act of challenging cultural misogyny as tilting at windmills. You won't stop anyone but you'll definitely have some... er... interesting company in that as you watch the rest of society move forward on this.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
60. good reposte, redqueen!
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:35 PM
May 2014

Here's my thinking on this whole thing: I no longer use the word "dick" to describe a man, because I want to be consistent. But "jerk" is better and can be applied to either gender.

I used to love the word "bitchy" as it applied to smug people being condescending and unnecessarily whining and complaining. I now say "pissy." Again, either sex can be "pissy."

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
78. Thanks!
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:07 PM
May 2014

I am so tired of people trying to dissuade others with that tired message.

They said the same thing about stopping bullying and so many other 'hopeless' challenges

Seems to me they're simply happy with the status quo and would rather others didn't go rocking the boat.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
87. On thing about language is that it is always changing. It's the amazing thing about
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:18 PM
May 2014

it. Just in my lifetime there have been so many changes in the language that it is mind spinning. People who can't get with the zeitgeist are left behind in the dust (so to speak...lol)...

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
11. It is still misogynist
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:13 PM
May 2014

It's a misogynist word that is more often used in that country than ours, but any time someone tells someone they're horrible by comparing them to a female body part, that is the way we're talking about. Being outside of America, or more common someone else, doesn't make it stop being misogynist.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
192. Yup, and by the way, that opinion does NOT mean,
Sun May 18, 2014, 01:11 PM
May 2014

as some have lamely suggested, that we are "demanding"

that OZ and the UK do as we do IN their own countries

or on boards where the majority are NOT offended by it.

 

2pooped2pop

(5,420 posts)
6. wow, this is the third thread I've seen from you on this topic
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:58 PM
May 2014

too bad we can't just use one thread to discuss the exact same thing. Well not really the same topic, but the exact same thing. Hell, I've had to hide threads containing the word Misogynist because of them.

 

2pooped2pop

(5,420 posts)
9. captain obvious, apparantly not all things are obvious.
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:03 PM
May 2014

I'm a female who just gets tired of seeing the exact same thing over and over and over again when trying to read through this forum.

BainsBane

(53,035 posts)
27. How is it that you care about racism
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:51 PM
May 2014

but not sexism? Is it just a function of not seeing women as important enough?

Capt. Obvious

(9,002 posts)
98. How is that you don't care about homophobia?
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:59 PM
May 2014

Is it just a function of seeing the lgbt community as a side issue?

BainsBane

(53,035 posts)
176. I most certainly do care about homophobia
Sat May 17, 2014, 04:30 PM
May 2014

and have said so repeatedly. I have not, nor would I ever, mocked it as you have concerns about sexism and misogyny.

I despise all forms of discrimination against subaltern groups, as my posting history makes clear.

 

2pooped2pop

(5,420 posts)
19. never done that before but I might have to
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:39 PM
May 2014

It's not that I don't agree with you for the most part. It's when I try to read latest threads that the same thing again and again and again. And mostly everyday at that. Basically the overkill has made me avoid the subject anymore.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
20. You're confused.
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:44 PM
May 2014

I don't start threads every day. But do feel free to ignore me. Posts in which people derail threads to make the discussion all about themselves aren't my favorite kind.

 

2pooped2pop

(5,420 posts)
21. and you think I'm the one that's confused?
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:46 PM
May 2014

OMGLOL!!

Posts in which people derail threads to make the discussion all about themselves aren't my favorite kind.

Response to redqueen (Reply #35)

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
81. Here is a bit of history on Regina George...
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:12 PM
May 2014

I would rethink that gif... but on second thought maybe it is perfect.

- Regina George was a "plastic" someone who is fake, a troll in a sense.
- Regina George had a burn book. Basically a device she used to stalk, torment, and hurt other people around her.
- Overall Regina George is spiteful, superficial, and hurtful.

Interesting gif choice, in my opinion.

Puglover

(16,380 posts)
15. I am sitting here wondering just how empty
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:24 PM
May 2014

my Friday would have been without this "refresher".



It boggles the mind. Read through the thread that inspired this. You will not believe it.

I am afraid there is no other choice but to send drones to Australia.

Puglover

(16,380 posts)
89. Oh dear.
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:22 PM
May 2014

Busted. I'm gay, married and live in Ecuador. God, some of these posters would simply implode down here.

And yet it's paradise IMHO.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
51. She had a hidden post in the previous thread on this, so is locked out of it.
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:19 PM
May 2014

So she started this thread as a continuation.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
56. No I wanted to set the record straight.
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:25 PM
May 2014

I tried just kicking someone else's thread about this but couldnt so I just reposted this part.

Thanks for helping to keep this kicked though!

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
61. You're more than welcome.
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:35 PM
May 2014

Let's just try to keep the posts within community standards this time, OK?

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
66. LOL, the hilarious thing is that you might actually be serious...
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:39 PM
May 2014

as if that was a valid hide...and as if much worse isn't allowed to stand with depressing regularity here.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
84. When I don't like someone else's post, and I alert on it, and it gets hidden, that's a "valid hide".
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:15 PM
May 2014

When someone doesn't like one of my posts, and alerts on it, and it gets hidden, that, by contrast, is a "monstrous outrage".

Happy to help.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
92. Something that actually should be hidden.
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:32 PM
May 2014

In the post of mine that was hidden I referred to someone's campaign to get me banned because I had the temerity to point out that MRA talking points were posted on DU. (A fact that has since been acknowledged by most here, but at the time this was considered a shocking allegation )

Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
127. Yr post deserved to be hidden. You accused another DUer of defending MRAs...
Fri May 16, 2014, 08:35 PM
May 2014

All because he had the gall to tell you that in Australia 'c**t' isn't used the same way it is in the US, and it's not a gender slur here.

Here's a link to the well-deserved hide.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4962108

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
128. LOL, wrong.
Fri May 16, 2014, 10:19 PM
May 2014

Back when I was the only person saying that MRA talking points were posted on DU, he campaigned to have me banned for it. Apparently he considered my saying that to be a horrible, awful thing to do. Much worse, apparently, than actually posting such talking points.


Maybe this post will be hidden too for daring to refer to his actions. Whatever. I'm used to such bullshit now.

Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
133. No, I'm right. I linked to yr hidden post to allow people to read it for themselves...
Fri May 16, 2014, 10:40 PM
May 2014

You attacked another DUer and accused them of defending MRA's. Yr post deserved to be hidden.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
163. He was trying to have me banned for daring to call out the fact that MRA talking points were
Sat May 17, 2014, 11:04 AM
May 2014

being posted on DU.

What in the hell do you think he was defending, Violet_Crumble?

Please, tell me.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
201. Guess you don't want to make up another reason why he was trying to have me banned for saying that.
Sun May 18, 2014, 06:47 PM
May 2014

Don't blame you really.

Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
206. I'm guessing since you've replied to my post twice
Sun May 18, 2014, 09:28 PM
May 2014

It must be important to you that I reply so here goes yet another head meets brick wall moment:

Yr hidden post told another DUer that they support MRAs. Without seeing the alert my guess is that's why it was hidden as it was a personal attack. Rather than starting a new thread after being locked out of the original one and trying to justify why juries should ignore yr attack on another DUer you should use the hidden post as a learning moment and try to get yr messages across in future without attacking other DUers

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
208. "Anyway don't you have a DUer spouting MRA-talking points to defend somewhere?"
Sun May 18, 2014, 09:35 PM
May 2014

That's what I said.

He was trying to have me banned for saying that MRA talking points were posted on DU.

Who do you think he was defending by trying to have me banned? It seems to me the only possible option is that he was defending those on DU who post MRA talking points.

Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
209. And it's what you said that got yr post hidden
Sun May 18, 2014, 09:50 PM
May 2014

If you want to run round attacking other DUers then you take yr chances with a jury. You lost that gamble. I'd suggest sucking it up and stop blaming others for yr own bad behaviour but I'm aware that would fall on deaf ears

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
186. Same poster was one of the biggest defenders of two transphobic bigots who got bounced
Sun May 18, 2014, 12:00 PM
May 2014

So it's rather ironic that when one type of gender hate is glaringly obvious to everyone else it's ignored, but manages to find other types under every rock when nobody but the peanut gallery manages to see it.

If it quacks like a duck...

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
197. What the everloving fuck are you talking about now?
Sun May 18, 2014, 04:46 PM
May 2014

You are seriously confused.

Your little quest to paint certain people as transphobic bigots or transphobic bigot sympathizers requires evidence. Evidence from this board, you know. The kind that can't be faked by obsessive stalkers.

You know, the kind I provided which showed you defending Warren Farrell's date rape apologia.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
198. ...
Sun May 18, 2014, 05:31 PM
May 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024956502#post77

The alert failed brilliantly, BTW, but I'm sure you already knew that.

On Sun May 18, 2014, 12:07 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Same poster was one of the biggest defenders of two transphobic bigots who got bounced
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4969337

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is a flat out lie and a very nasty one. Rude is putting it mildly and it is definitely disruptive.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun May 18, 2014, 12:13 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If it;s a lie, the Alerter should address it in the thread.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If you want me to hide something, make the case. A accusation just won't cut it with me.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The author makes a valid point IMO. And I might add
wanting to hide a post is taking a cowardly way out of an argument. LEAVE IT
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I couldn't make heads or tails of this thread chain. - confused.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
199. You're linking to the same tag team of obsessed stalkers
Sun May 18, 2014, 06:44 PM
May 2014

quoting the same off site board.




Here's a hint, try not linking to things other people say, or things you think I said elsewhere.

For example:

The "no means no" meme is bullshit. The fact is that no sometimes means yes. Objective feminists know this and teach that people need to understand when no really does mean no. As it turns out, Farrell is directing that same message to men.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=905760


And here's more from Farrell, the man you're defending there by quoting decades old, bullshit studies.


"We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting." - Warren Farrell, in Myth of Male Power

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
204. So you complain about people "stalking" you...
Sun May 18, 2014, 07:29 PM
May 2014

Then you continue to stalk me in the same message.

Brilliant!

Anyone who cares to follow all the links (including the one you just provided), can find out all they need to know and I've already answered your previous stalk, so why you insist on repeating it seems a bit curious. One would think you'd want to be ReallyQuiet about it, but it doesn't bother me much that you aren't.

Have a nice week as I'm done here for now, but do continue if you wish.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
205. I wasn't stalking you - I was in that thread. In the same conversation. Right there, same thread.
Sun May 18, 2014, 08:01 PM
May 2014


Thanks for not pretending you weren't defending Warren Farrell this time, at least.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
207. hey I 'member those days...
Sun May 18, 2014, 09:32 PM
May 2014

my posting became less and less during that time. I got tired of mostly men claiming victim status because someone said white male privlege is a thing.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
10. The Dead Milkmen had a song called "Bitchen' Camaro."
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:09 PM
May 2014

In which they talked about how cool their car was.

Does that sort of usage constitute a misogynistic slur?

Language is a living thing, and contested terrain, I suppose.

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
97. It can be spelled either way.
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:57 PM
May 2014

When I was young, we used "bitch" the same way - if something was cool and great, it was "bitch". That was in the midwest in the 60s and early 70s. I believe bitchin originated on the west coast and moved east during the 70s, replacing "bitch".

bitch·in’
[bich-uhn]
adjective Slang.
marvelous; wonderful.
Also, bitch·en, bitch·ing [bich-ing, -uhn].

Origin:
bitch + -in’, -en informal or dialectal variant of -ing2 (here forming nonparticipial adj.)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bitchen

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
99. Its a fucking song title pinto.
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:00 PM
May 2014

I know the song and I know how they spelled it. Christ.

Some people just love to argue.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
106. Yes, we can count on you to compare challenging the idea that misogynist slurs should be
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:32 PM
May 2014

Considered socially acceptable because 'that's just how it is' with the willingness to enter a discussion of the same to nitpick about my having corrected the incorrect spelling of a song title.

Exactly the same kind of argument to you, I know.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
187. More on "bitchin'." The post that got me booted from the HOF:
Sun May 18, 2014, 12:42 PM
May 2014

So...yesterday I was notified that I was being slagged (not by name) in the HOF as some sort of pathetic loser who resorted to pointing to a rarely used 1970s or 1980s vernacular like "bitchin'" to defend, er, something or other.

So I responded to the post in question. The title of my post was "Here's the Google Search Results for Bitchin'" and that's what I posted, the first page of the search results. That's all.

Ya know, HOFers, if you're gonna have your little safe haven, maybe you shouldn't use it to slag other community members, and then block them when they respond. That's just chickenshit.

Anyway, here's the offending post:

bitch·ing
ˈbiCHiNG/
USinformal
adjective
adjective: bitchin'
1. excellent. "a bitching new album"

adverb
adverb: bitchin'
1. extremely. "it's bitchin' hot, ain't it?"

Urban Dictionary: bitchin
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitchin
Urban Dictionary
Dude, look at that bitchin '32 roadster with the black pinstriping. Also written bitchen or bitchin' - and ALWAYS pronounced BIT-chin. by The Zootramp ...

Bitchin - Merriam-Webster Online
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bitchin'
Merriam‑Webster
slang : remarkably bad : detestable <of all the bitchin' luck>. 2. slang : remarkably good or cool <a bitchin' car>. See bitchin' defined for English-language ...

Bitchin' Kitchen
bitchinlifestyle.tv/
Nadia Giosia
Welcome to Nadia G's Bitchin Kitchen. Find recipes, videos, culture tips, and more. ... Bitchin' Kitchen Sizzle Reel · more videos · SK-NG-02 ...
Bitchin' - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitchin'

Wikipedia
Bitchin' is the seventh studio album by the American hard rock band The Donnas, released in 2007 on their own label Purple Feather and released through ...

Nadia G's Bitchin' Kitchen : Cooking Channel
www.cookingchanneltv.com/.../nadia-gs-bitchin-kitche...
Cooking Channel
Hilarious, entertaining and deliciously demented, Nadia G's Bitchin' Kitchen is a comedy-cooking show based on the wildly popular web series.

bitchin' - definition of bitchin' by the Free Online Dictionary ...
www.thefreedictionary.com/bitchin'
TheFreeDictionary.com
bitch·in' or bitch·en adj. Slang. Excellent; first-rate. [Alteration of bitching, from (son of a) bitch.] bitchin' (ˈbɪtʃɪn) or bitching. adj. 1. wonderful or excellent. adv.

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
195. Welcome to the club.
Sun May 18, 2014, 02:14 PM
May 2014

I got booted for defending myself in a thread there after multiple call-outs of me (by name). My "offending" post was alerted and went 7-0 to leave it.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/125542939#post31

Calista241

(5,586 posts)
18. Finally a new meme
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:38 PM
May 2014

Doesn't this get away from the white male privilidge discussion we've been having recently.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
43. My pleasure.
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:12 PM
May 2014

And I'm sorry it's still necessary.

It took years to get people to stop thinking prison rape was actually a big deal and not just a joke or something to wish on someone, so I'm sure this will take much longer. We're still not there on rape culture or sexual objectification, either. But this website skews toward an older demographic. Somehow younger generations manage to grasp things that older ones just can't wrap their minds around.

BainsBane

(53,035 posts)
25. Jury results
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:49 PM
May 2014

On "Bitch" and other Misogynist language
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024962951

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Posting the "c" word on DU is over the top no matter who does it. Hide

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri May 16, 2014, 02:48 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't play those games here. I bet any amount of money this alerter falls over herself defending c. .t when used as an insult by men but objects to a discussion of it as sexist. A certain alerter is known to make dishonest alerts along these lines. That anyone would think it acceptable for posts insulting women as "c. . .s" to remain while alerting on one that speaks to the misogyny of such language is itself offensive beyond belief. I hope the administrators have a good look at this alerter.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: What is going on, alerter? Please read TOS and SOP, there is nothing in the OP that is
against the rules that I can measure for you. Leave it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Open, intelligent discussion about certain words
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Seriously?? This post was an information thread. What a waste to alert on it
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Give me a break. To discuss the usage of a word, you have to be able to say the word itself. Otherwise we're all going to become the Knights Who Say Ni and end up shrieking and holding our ears because we can't use the word 'the' or some nonsense like that. The use was purely analytical and not pejorative.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

reflection

(6,286 posts)
45. Although I was proud to be Juror #7,
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:12 PM
May 2014

I am utterly humiliated that I said the forbidden word as "the" and not the proper "it." I've seen that movie over 30 times and still screwed it up.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
74. Well someone (or ones) are really trying to shut redqueen up
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:56 PM
May 2014

I just served on a jury for what I consider a benign post of hers (in this thread).

I voted to leave it alone (of course, it was a benign post)

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
76. I wish people would quit trying to game the system to shut up people they don't like.
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:01 PM
May 2014

It's really childish, and it happens a lot. On all sides.

 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
113. Erm...how does Juror 2 know who alerted?
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:49 PM
May 2014

I never see anything about who alerted when I do Jury duty, unless I somehow have completely overlooked that? I wouldn't think so because it doesn't really seem germane, but...?

Am I missing something? Or are they just responding to who they -think- -might- have alerted?

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
146. Looks like they are "betting" that they can guess who is the alerter ...
Sat May 17, 2014, 12:51 AM
May 2014

I can name the Alerter in Five Names.

I can name the Alerter in Four Names.

I can name the Alerter in Three Names.

I can name the Alerter in Two Names.

I can name the Alerter in One Name.

NAME THAT ALERTER!!

 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
147. I don't think I'll ever get used to some of the forum games.
Sat May 17, 2014, 12:57 AM
May 2014

Maybe I'm too old for it or something, I dunno.

Name That Alerter. I like that.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
148. Honestly, I agree with you and, I think it was a bad call that Alerters are anonymus.
Sat May 17, 2014, 01:09 AM
May 2014

I know this isn't a Real Court but, a person deserves to know/face one's Accuser.

I think it would cut out a lot of the "game playing" alerting.

Alas, I am not on the payroll and they don't listen to me anyway

 

LordGlenconner

(1,348 posts)
28. What about female dogs?
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:53 PM
May 2014

They are sometimes referred to as a "bitch" or "bitches" in the case of a litter of females.

BainsBane

(53,035 posts)
31. Are you a dog breeder?
Fri May 16, 2014, 03:59 PM
May 2014

Refer to female dogs as bitches all you like. That is the proper use of the word. Nothing wrong with it.

 

LordGlenconner

(1,348 posts)
33. No, not a breeder
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:01 PM
May 2014

However I do hear people say this with some frequency. I can recall as a child we had purchased two collies from a breeder. She visited our home to check on them several months later and referred to them as "bitches" and I looked at my mom and dad like "WTH is she calling my dogs bitches for?"

At any rate, I've found it's generally a bad idea to call women by that word. And also a bit uncouth.

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
122. Every morning when I let my dogs...
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:17 PM
May 2014

out I say 'what up bitches' they're both female.

Every time my cousin comes to visit he walks in and says 'what's up bitch'. Then again he calls everyone a bitch, he says he gets to cuz he's gay.

I have a friend that calls me her 'sister bitch'.

I don't like s*ut, w*ore, etc. I especially hate the *c* word, but bitch doesn't bother me in the least.

I get that in the other thread that the *c* word means something different in Australia.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
59. And Black people who say the N word are all racist! Yeah bro! ^5!
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:31 PM
May 2014


Honestly do you actually think you're making valid points?

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
164. Missy may be a self-hating female, but you wouldn't know anything about that sort of thing
Sat May 17, 2014, 02:08 PM
May 2014

would you?

.Anyone who has studied the psychology of minorities and disenfranchised populations knows that

such groups frequently , not to mention tragically, internalize the contempt in which they are held.


If your white male privilege makes you're blissfully ignorant on that score, I'd suggest you educate yourself.

Response to redqueen (Original post)

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
70. They sure don't get called on it often enough IMO.
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:45 PM
May 2014

Threads full of defenses of misogynist slurs, rationalizations for the wage gap, etc.

If they're not shouted down they assume most people agree with them.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
67. ...
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:40 PM
May 2014
1. The Brits use it. Some segments of British society are indeed fond of using the word cunt a lot. There are pubs in London where three seconds doesn't go by without someone shouting "yeh feckin' cunt!" at his or her mate. And…that really has nothing to do with its use at an American blog about American politics.


Although it has quite a lot to do with its use by a British person in Britain, or for that matter an Australian in Australia, where the cultural context around the word is significantly different, as are its connotations. This strikes me as yet more "Americans lecturing people on what they should find offensive". Is it the most offensive word it's possible to use in an American context? Yes. Does American use define English usage worldwide? No, it does not.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
73. I'm familiar with the etymology.
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:56 PM
May 2014

That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't have the same meaning in the UK, or Ireland, or Australia, or New Zealand, that it does in the US. In Commonwealth English its use is equivalent to "arsehole", only somewhat stronger. The fact that it has different meanings and connotations in the US doesn't change that fact. One would probably never hear an American male calling another man a cunt, for instance. A pussy? Yes, which has an entirely different connotation in American colloquial use of "weak and unmanly".

Here, have a British feminist calling a dreadful misogynist a cunt: http://ssy.org.uk/2011/01/giles-coren-what-a/

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
88. I can take it that you've never lived outside the US.
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:20 PM
May 2014

You're wasting your time trying to lecture Australians and people in the UK on how they should see "cunt" as a horribly offensive misogynist slur, yes, when its usage in Australia and the UK is significantly different to its generally specifically misogynist use in the US where it's almost invariably used as a term of abuse for women.

Again I refer you to the Cambridge Dictionary of British English (note that the first definition given is "stupid or unpleasant person", regardless of gender): http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/cunt

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
91. And 'bitch' is used against men and women but guess what?
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:28 PM
May 2014

It's really sad that people here are so compelled to defend these slurs.

And I know many people from the UK and Ireland. A few from Scotland. And while it is more commonly used there, the word is what it is and no amount of wishing will change it. It isn't just Americans who are able to grasp this concept.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
95. Prescriptivist, much?
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:49 PM
May 2014

You may have a very definite idea of what the word means. That doesn't map onto its usage by non-American speakers of English, though.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
96. The cries of 'but that's not how we meant it!' are as meaningless for this word
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:54 PM
May 2014

as they are for those who insist that using 'gay' as an insult is fine, or 'bitch', etc.

Sorry but the world is evolving. You don't have to like it but you can't stop it.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
100. Language evolves too, sorry to say
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:02 PM
May 2014

Your American definitions are not the only ones. Further reading for you from a British perspective:

I mean, as someone brought up in a working-class Scottish culture where swearing is part of the fucking rhythm of one's fucking breath, where 'cunt' is often a term of affection, such notions of impropriety seem, to be blunt, utter bollocks. You want shock though? The American usage of "cunt" was utterly alien to me when I first encountered it, and utterly abhorrent when I realised that, yes, for some deeply fucked-up-to-fucking-fuck reason, men in the US genuinely used "cunt" like a fucking racist Nazi fucktard spitting, "kike" at a Jew with the audacity to confront their holocaust denial. Seriously. "Cunt" is, for sure, the Doomsday Insult in discourse here in the UK as much as in the US, but to equate the way it operates in the UK with the way it operates in the US... it's like equating "cretin" as an insult spat at some idiot who's screwed up your life and "cretin" as an insult aimed at someone with congenital hypothyroidism whose cardinal crime is that they repulse you to the cold depths of your rotted heart. Jesus Fucking Cunt!

The distinct differences in usage in these non-US cultures means that we cannot simply assume an American paradigm, not least if to assume it is to impose it. If, as I'd argue, the UK and Australian paradigm is at very least free of "cunt" as a term comparable to "nigger" or "faggot," blindly accepting a taboo on "cunt" as misogynist hate-speech here may be like blindly accepting that we should henceforth stop using "arselicker" because it is and can only be a grossly homophobic slur vis-a-vis the practice of rimming. All that would achieve is to kill the "ingratiating toady" meaning and put a new tool in the homophobe's arsenal (no pun intended) of insults. Score one for the bigots.

At the end of the day? If the discourse is aimed at tackling misogyny, it's undeniable that "cunt" carries a "bitch whore slut monster" meaning in one use, but if we suspend all uses of the word on that basis, we're surrendering all other meanings, surrendering it to the misogynist fucks who'll happily use it with that meaning now here in the UK, when previously if they'd done so they'd have been called "cunts" for it. This doesn't seem like an ideal strategy to me. It's like surrendering "gay" rather than reclaiming "queer."

Maybe I'm being a daft cunt here, pissing into the wind, but sod it, the UK culture in which those two italicised phrases in this sentence are equally innocuous seems an infinitely preferable paradigm to me.


http://notesfromthegeekshow.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/cunt.html

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
107. I remember how surprised I was
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:33 PM
May 2014

when I first learned that "fag" in England is slang for a cigarette.

I was watching some British TV show in syndication in the US and heard the characters going on about needing a fag.

Although I don't use any of these potentially objectionable words in daily use, I do believe the usage of all words changes over time. Back when "You suck" or "Disco sucks" was becoming popular (late '70s, early '80s), I remember my stepfather (who had been in the Navy and could swear like a sailor) saying they shouldn't be saying that on prime-time TV. Also, back in the early '80s, I remember my uncle chuckling over commercials for "Wang" computers. When I asked him why he was laughing, he said that when he was a kid, "wang" was slang for "penis". He just thought it was funny that they'd get in big trouble for saying the word back then, and now it was being advertised on television.

Like him, I also love George Carlin's critique of "two-way words" where a word is bad in one instance but not bad in another:

"But, there are some two-way words. There are double-meaning words. Remember the ones you giggled at in sixth grade? 'And the cock crowed three times.' 'Hey, the cock crowed three times. It's in the Bible.' There are some two-way words, like it's okay for Curt Gowdy to say 'Roberto Clemente has two balls on him.' But he can't say, 'I think he hurt his balls on that play, Tony, don't you? He's holding them. He must have hurt them, by God.' And the other two-way word that goes with that one is prick. It's okay if it happens to your finger. Yes, you can prick your finger, but don't finger your prick."

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
109. It has the exact same meaning. It's just used more casually.
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:43 PM
May 2014

It still means "female genitalia" but people like to call people it more often and use it more casually. It's still misogynist. Just those countries are more OK with that.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
114. Not really, no.
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:51 PM
May 2014

Meaning evolves with use. The Cambridge dictionary of British English lists the meaning "a stupid or offensive person" ahead of the meaning "the female genitalia". In common use in the UK (and presumably Australia) it's not a word directed at women.

Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #114)

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
120. Except it's not a specifically misogynist slur in non-US usage.
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:13 PM
May 2014

Your experience and understanding of US English usage doesn't apply to Australian or British English. The name for what you're doing, I think, is "Yanksplaining" (v. - An American earnestly attempts to inform non-Americans why their US-based perceptions of something are the only ones that are applicable.)

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
121. Oh bullshit
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:16 PM
May 2014

I've had this conversation with my husband because I didn't want him using that word around our daughters. How does it affect girls to grow up hearing their dads put down other people by using a word that means - to everyone everywhere, even if it's also used to mean something else - "female genitalia? He agreed and at least doesn't use it around the girls. The word is casually used there and people aren't concerned about the misogyny, which I guess is up to them and I don't really care what people I'm not related to in another country use when I'm not around, however it's still misogynist.

ancianita

(36,101 posts)
124. In an unconscious patriarchal ocean that women swim in, you may well explain a 'normed' word's
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:37 PM
May 2014

use. You may well also man-splain these words across cultures. I could claim that women know a 'normed' rationalizing when they hear it. Such explanations sound fair minded. But what exists for half the planet is the psychological and physical minefield of language use that goes with the public [read 'male'] space they have to occupy -- legal definitions, naming rights, threatening words, fighting words, manipulations, condescensions, jokes, etc -- that women are conscious of, but will not fight to the death about with those who presume the privilege of denying women's consciousness about their status.

As a former English/Linguistics major, I've heard your explanations before. The more conscious one is about meanings and their history, the less others' word uses seem to be, but the social effects are the same regardless of intention. I think women across continents suck up unconscious sexist language with grace. There might be a time when it doesn't matter, but that time's not here yet. You're only going to convince about half of us about this.

I respect the spirit of redqueen's attempts here, for all the attitude she has to suck up.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
150. "Yanksplaining"- great word.
Sat May 17, 2014, 01:25 AM
May 2014

Reminds me of the Americans who earnestly tried to explain to the Danes why their traditional blackface Christmas character was offensive. Because of America's legacy of slavery and minstrel shows, naturally.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
110. Now I am curious to know if there are any words
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:44 PM
May 2014

that don't bother us that much but which would be very offensive in Britain, etc.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
149. "Wanker" is more offensive in the UK than in the USA.
Sat May 17, 2014, 01:22 AM
May 2014

Largely because many Americans don't know what it means.


hughee99

(16,113 posts)
68. Is the word "bitch" used in the context "complaining" an issue?
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:42 PM
May 2014

i.e. "he likes to bitch and moan about his job"

I'm not trying to fuck with you here, but I can see where one could make the argument for either side, and was wondering what your thoughts were.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
72. IMO yes.
Fri May 16, 2014, 04:56 PM
May 2014

I don't hear a lot of cultural messages about female dogs complaining any more than male dogs do. I do hear plenty about women complaining more than men (e.g. nagging, general gender stereotypes). So yes, it is hard for me to believe that anyone could be meaning 'this person is complaining a lot about things I don't care about, similar to the way a female dog would'.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
79. I think "bitching" may have escaped its root word's gender-bound slur status.
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:09 PM
May 2014

I hear it used all the time by men and women to mean complaining or whining. And directed at both men and women.



redqueen

(115,103 posts)
83. Why do you think the sex of the target makes a difference?
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:15 PM
May 2014

Do you think calling something a straight person does 'gay' is any less a homophobic insult just because the target is straight and not engaging in homosexual sex?

The 'but it's used against men too' argument is so bankrupt of logic that it actually pains me to see it so often here.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
168. +1
Sat May 17, 2014, 02:45 PM
May 2014

It's like men who call other men "pussies." The obvious insinuation is that the target of that slur is less than a "real" man, or less of a man...and therefore, more like a woman.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
203. Again, Comrade, the word as adjective or verb is unlike
Sun May 18, 2014, 07:11 PM
May 2014

the word as a noun where it's used as demeaning synonym
for "woman".

Keep trying -- Some day you may actually able to grasp it.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
115. As I recall...
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:54 PM
May 2014

the demographics of DU skew toward people in their fifties and sixties. There's nothing more surreal than watching adults with homes and jobs and maybe kids in college arguing over dirty words.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
118. Ah. I forgot.
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:05 PM
May 2014

BIGOTED SLURS are different. Why don't you start a thread about the fine semantic difference between bigoted slurs and dirty words? Why don't you explain the difference between using a dirty word as a bigoted slur and a bigoted slur used as a dirty word? That should be interesting.

Certain words as maledictions in and of themselves might have made sense in the fourteenth century. Not so much now.

ancianita

(36,101 posts)
126. One more recommendation, just to give a political context of history writing. Frame who's
Fri May 16, 2014, 08:19 PM
May 2014

important in history, and how women later see word use gets framed as irrelevant.

http://www.amazon.com/Women-Ideas-What-Have-Done/dp/0044408323/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
131. I'm embarrassed for you.
Fri May 16, 2014, 10:35 PM
May 2014

When a person can't just admit they were wrong, and instead chooses to shout louder, it's just... embarrassing.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
132. LOL! Given your posting history on feminist issues
Fri May 16, 2014, 10:40 PM
May 2014

I'm only to happy to know that we again disagree

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
136. That seems to be your only trick.
Fri May 16, 2014, 10:54 PM
May 2014

Accuse the person who's pointed out that you're wrong of being a mens' rights activist/moustache-twirling patriarchy villain.

It's ridiculous and again, embarrassing to watch.

Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
140. I've proved her wrong multiple times on her claim that the word is a sexist slur in Australia...
Fri May 16, 2014, 11:29 PM
May 2014

I can provide links, but there's so many of them by now if you count all the other people apart from me that have been telling her the same thing, that I wouldn't know where to start...

Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #140)

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
142. It's been posted to her about fifty times.
Sat May 17, 2014, 12:12 AM
May 2014

Pick a post at random in this thread and it's likely either such an explanation, or an insult + refusal to acknowledge it as such from the OP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024961462

ancianita

(36,101 posts)
144. Well, I happen to agree with the OP. Ganging up on one point ignores the spirit of the OP, which is
Sat May 17, 2014, 12:33 AM
May 2014

kinda cheap point scoring while ignoring other things.

I'm sick to death of how people keep "bringing to my awareness" other business that's been chewed and regurgitated ad nauseum on these threads, but I don't go jump down their throat about it in their threads.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
145. You agree with the OP about what? That everyone uses US definitions for english words?
Sat May 17, 2014, 12:42 AM
May 2014

Then you're wrong.

Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
141. It was prompted because she was locked out of the original thread...
Fri May 16, 2014, 11:34 PM
May 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024961462

Where she was lecturing me, as well as others, about how the word was used in Australia. Now she's started a new thread to give us a 'refresher' about how the usage of words in other countries must be the same as in the US...

Sissyk

(12,665 posts)
139. Some of us have not changed our minds since
Fri May 16, 2014, 11:20 PM
May 2014

the last time this came up, but thanks for the refresher, just the same.

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
152. Sorry but its all in your head.
Sat May 17, 2014, 01:44 AM
May 2014

Men and women all over this country use the word "bitch" and "bitching" and "sonovabitch", there is no connotation of "inequality" between the genders unless some dude just goes about calling women "bitches" without discrimination. Mainstream culture has decided that's the way that it is and you just need to deal with it and stop being so easily insulted by things that aren't meant to insult you.

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
156. so if women get called bitches A LOT, then it's ok? sorry if not all of us are
Sat May 17, 2014, 04:15 AM
May 2014

down with this excuse.

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
159. I'm not making any excuses. And thats not what I said.
Sat May 17, 2014, 04:32 AM
May 2014

Actually I said if someone goes around calling women, in general, "bitches", that's not ok. But if I stub my toe and say "sonuvabitch", that's fine. If I tell someone to stop bitching at me, I don't feel that's an attack on women. And on the off chance a particular woman is a really mean and nasty person, I see nothing wrong with calling her a bitch no more than I see calling a particular mean and nasty man a dick head or a prick.

I see no need to make an excuse because I'm not doing anything wrong and I take the real issues of gender inequality far too serious than to entertain the notion that this trivial nonsense plays any important role in an honest discussion about the plight of women in our society. Lets talk about equal pay, the attacks on woman's choice, protecting women in physically abusive relationships, breaking glass ceilings and the various other injustices with some actual meat to it.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
155. On word definition differences in different cultures,
Sat May 17, 2014, 04:00 AM
May 2014

OK Americans... What's the "N" word? You know it.... but we don't say it unless we find ourselves fired, blackballed, hidden, given pizza, in a fight, ridiculed or you are black.

OK you Germans... What's the "N" word? You know it... but you don't say it unless you find yourselves fired, blackballed, hidden, in a fight, ridiculed or you actually are one.

Americans? Your "N" word is Ni..er. We don't say it or write it unless we are racist or we are black.
Germans? Your "N" word is Nazi. You don't say it or write it unless you are a racist or you are a Nazi.

Americans say Nazi this, Nazi that, Your a Nazi, She's a Nazi, I'm a grammar Nazi, those RWs are all Nazis. To Germans, that's abhorrent and insulting.

Germans say Neither "N" word out of respect for blacks who have equal rights there, although doing black face in schauspiel is not out of form. The Nazi Party is banned.

Definitions are treated very differently in other cultures. If a German comes to America and hears a flippant use of the word Nazi it is as nerve grinding as Americans saying ni..er. Get the picture? Words AND culture matter.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
162. How they feel about it matters not at all. The word does not have a whole new meaning just because
Sat May 17, 2014, 11:01 AM
May 2014

they feel that that's "not what they meant" by it.

The word has no alternate meaning. That's it. People are having a blast quoting dictionaries, as if that changes anything.

These are the same kind of people who use "bitch" toward men and think that makes it not misogynist because "it's directed at a man".

It's just nonsense. No amount of insisting that it means something else now and that's how they are using it now changes anything.

Just as with so many who tried to do it with "that's gay!" or "that's retarded!" these people will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming away from the reflexive need to defend oppressive, socially unacceptable bigoted slurs.

It doesn't matter how much anyone desperately wishes to use offensive terms and claim they're meant in a non-offensive way, the terms themselves are loaded, and no matter how hard people wish and how deeply they believe, that is simply reality.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
171. 988,968 words in Webster's Dictionary
Sat May 17, 2014, 03:32 PM
May 2014

Last edited Sat May 17, 2014, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)

You would think some folks might try using more of them for a change rather than whine because the few they prefer using are slurs. Of course, that would require using a dictionary to expand one's language rather than brandish it about as a pathetic defense for why they should be able to call someone a c---t.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
172. You would think "but they don't mean it that way!" would have been abandoned as the patently
Sat May 17, 2014, 03:53 PM
May 2014

illogical bullshit excuse it is, especially after we've recently seen 'gay' and 'retarded' become socially unacceptable.

But no, that's how desperate some people apparently are.

Any excuse or rationalization will do, no matter how bankrupt of logic.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
178. The same can be said for many things
Sat May 17, 2014, 05:06 PM
May 2014

For example, beating a woman may be acceptable in Saudi Arabia, indeed, whenever the subject of how women are treated in the Mid East comes up, there are usually people who come on the internet or television, giving us the "how provincial you Americans are" speech, where the response is usually some genuine criticism about the ways we indeed suck, but mixed with a not so healthy amount of bullshit. I do not care how many Quran verses or statistics the talking heads quote, it is wrong.

The fact is, wrong is still wrong, and all the years of tradition do NOT MEAN A DAMN THING! Yes, in Australia , they may call each (that word) all they want to, but that does not change the fact it is has a nasty meaning, based on the idea that you use a feminine term for nasty thing. I know many Aussies would hate this word, but frankly, even if they did not, I would say "Well, that just shows you have some growing up to do."

Call a man a c word, great, you have just reinforced the idea that if a man is feminine, he deserves to get insulted. Ever wonder why military trainers love to use that word on recruits? because they want to rip the feminine side out of them so they be will better killers (with a bit a rapist on the side.) And then we wonder why every time there is a war, the incidents of Rape go sky high, or why so many veterans wind up becoming rapists when they get home.

The only silver lining to the potential collapse of civilization is that tradition will be revealed as an old shell. On second thought, no, because lo and behold, the would be priests and priestesses will be around to say "civilization had to go to revive tradition!" and the old, stupid traditions will continue, with women getting the brunt of it.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
179. Great post. You make excellent points.
Sat May 17, 2014, 05:49 PM
May 2014

It indeed is intended as "a nasty name for a nasty thing" and no amount of hoping and wishing will change it.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
169. I don't get why some people here are so defensive about using obvious gendered slurs
Sat May 17, 2014, 02:50 PM
May 2014

Slurs that have a long history of being used to denigrate and demean women, or for that matter, other socially marginalized groups (historically and currently). Surely there are other words that we can use?

Furthermore, this is a progressive forum, right?

Right?

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
173. Did you notice the hidden post upthread? Someone referred to a Republican woman as a b****.
Sat May 17, 2014, 03:55 PM
May 2014

Some are really not willing to give up their oppressive slurs. This fight will be a long one.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
174. Have to admit, I've used that word in the past
Sat May 17, 2014, 04:13 PM
May 2014

But I'm not going to make excuses, I'm simply going to make an effort to find other ways to express myself. Even those of us who know better need a reminder once in a while. Thanks!

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
180. As have most of us, I'm sure.
Sat May 17, 2014, 05:51 PM
May 2014

We all grow up absorbing more or less the same messages. Especially where women are concerned.

Nikia

(11,411 posts)
185. I agree
Sun May 18, 2014, 11:14 AM
May 2014

If someone informs you that a certain term aimed at a group of people is offensive, the decent thing to do is apologize and stop using it.

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