has a big surprise coming to them.

believe the word has any place in American discourse. But what I cannot fucking believe is the astounding arrogance of those who will not even entertain the possibility that because a word means something to them, then damnit, it should mean the same thing to EVERYBODY!

They are who they are.

TOS however does specify that overt bigotry is not acceptable on the site.

If anyone here wants Skinner to open the site up to more blatant hatred for women, people of color, LGBT Americans, Muslims, etc..., they should probably post a request in ATA. Folks can even ask him to get of riff raff who kill the buzz certain people seem to get from demeaning the majority of the population on this planet who look, love, and pee differently.

What are you talking about? Are you seriously going to argue that calling a woman c...t isn't bigoted?

I thought I'd stick to the topic.

I have no idea on earth what you are talking about, and you don't seem interested in letting me in on it.

It is simply a more commonly used gendered slur than it is here.

Would you have done this OP in defense of slurs if it had been homophobic, or is that he fact it demeans women simply fortuitous?

you have a superior take on it.

from the point of view of a perceived inferior, a woman. I speak as a person subject to sexism and misogyny, who knows first-hand what it means to experience gender-based bigotry.

Clearly that is of little consequence to some here, as discussions of racism have made clear. Some will always elevate those who insult above those who are the targets of discrimination. That is the nature of power, oppression, and their justifications.

I think we all know that the reason this word is being defended here is precisely because it is a gendered insult. That is what makes it so attractive to some.

I will also note that the excuse of being foreign and understanding the use of words differently made no difference to folks determined to punish a certain male feminist for his use of a word/s they didn't like while he was in the process of committing the crime of denouncing sexism. That is not to excuse the posts that earned that member hides, but rather to point out that the argument that foreign members earn a special dispensation in using slurs is rejected by some of the same people seeking to justify use of the most vulgar word in the English language to demean women.


But by all means, use any words you want. Far be it from me to interfere with your or anyone else's expression of their authentic selves. I would actually welcome a more honest approach to how people discuss these issues. However, to expect others not to understand and experience its use as a clear expression of contempt for women is unrealistic.

Okay, the word is a gender slur in the US. I don't think anyone's disputing that. What some people are disputing is that it's not a gender slur in Australia. They're wrong.

I thought this and another thread was about someone, a DUer, who used the word in some context. Are you saying this OP feels compelled to justify some right-wing Australian politician?

I assumed this effort to tell women they should take abuse was at least in favor of someone on this site and not a rabid right-winger.

in that context and an excoriation of those offended by it as emblematic of the "Ugly American."

I don't have a problem with the linked OP's recounting the use of the word in parliament. What I am now more stunned by that when I first read this OP is that someone feels compelled to write an OP telling women that the word should be tolerated because some Australian right-winger likes to use it. I had no idea it was possible for my concerns and those of the majority of American women who are offended by that word to rank so low that even a RW politician across the world is more important.

and I have never seen anyone here saying it shouldn't be used by them for that meaning. As to the c word in Australia, I personally have no idea about its use but if Australians are saying it doesn't mean the same thing there as it does here it seems their word should be taken on that.

having lived in the UK myself. I take it to be equivalent to p...y here, which is also a gendered insult but not considered as offensive as c..t, which most US women, I believe, feel to be the most insulting, sexist word.

I'm nobody's word police. I'm not making any pronouncements on how Australians, English people, or anyone on DU should speak. As I said, people are free to use any language they choose. I am saying that if someone says that word around me, I know they mean to demean me, and I will judge them accordingly. Whatever linguistic preferences someone has, how they interpret the word, or why they seek to justify its use, does not erase my experience of the word. The advantage of someone's using such language is it enables me to immediately know who they are and not waste a moment imagining they will ever care about women, equality, or civil rights.

Things I learned on DU.

I've heard bogans use it in a way used in the example I'm going to post (pre-emptive note to jury - I'm not going to replace letters with asterisks when I'm copying and pasting from an article written by someone explaining how the word gets used here).

I'm on enough international boards to know this to be true, one reason I find word police to be ridiculous as well as prissy beyond belief.

International boards don't have banned words lists. Anything goes and usually does and if it is completely offensive, the poster finds out quickly.

Their self righteousness makes me wonder how they got that way.

Imagine that. A crass, British comedian using that word. Well, it spurred the outrage police. Mostly Americans, I noticed.

I don't like the word; I don't use it, but I am not shocked when I hear it. I watched "The Thick of it". They didn't use the c-word, but they used one very closely related to that. ALL THE TIME. It was hilarious.

And free speech doesn't mean you are free from consequences of using certain speech.

We have the right to be offensive if we so choose, but we don't have the right to dictate how other people feel about whatever we say (as in "You shouldn't be offended&quot . Yet, no one has the right to go through life never being offended. That's impossible. So it's a fine line. Audience and context are important. I would be offended if such a word was directed at me, but used in a joke? Not so much.

Wasn't it The Thick Of It that first coined the word "bunglec**t"?

This is all about imperialism. Got it.

(*scraping noise, scraping noise, scritch, scritch, scratch*)

Noted.

I guess you are just a flippant person. No big deal really.

RAH, RAH, USA post of mine? I've been here for a dozen years, so you must have a vast library of jingoistic bullshit with my name on it.

so difficult to understand?

I recall you claiming that the word has the same indefensible meaning regardless of where it is used, and that is incorrect.
I'm trying not to let this get sidetracked.
To be clear, I abhor the word and do not use it. But I'm an American, living in the United States. An Aussie or a Brit exists in a totally different cultural milieu. That is the sole meaning of my post.

You are an American posting on an American message board where the post was made for a primarily American audience. It is well known that the word is objectionable to Americans and it is well known that word is objectionable to many DU feminists. Why do you think it was posted here?

I was responding to your incorrect (but remarkably stubborn) claims about the meaning of the word in the land which it was uttered. You have now commenced with the obligatory goal-post moving. I have no doubt that I could continue to state how offensive the word is in this country, and you will continue to ignore that.
Instead you're pretending that your sole objection is to the reporting of the word's use in another country on an American internet forum. But unless you can run back and delete a whole lot of claims that the word means whatever you think it means, no matter where it is spoken, that one's a loser.

post close to what you are describing.

(some of us at least) abbor words....and some see how silly that is but can't say so without being thought guilty of something.

What have you done for them lately, eh?

Same garbage as DU just being a hole in the wall (when it is needed for an argument). However, I've heard the SAME people say we should watch what we say on DU...it could effect the outcome of federal elections!

Same shit, same people, different day, different narrative.

feminists and DU would find that so exciting and engaging that you might not want to come back. My hopes are still high.

of accusing him of bashing HOF and DU over at the new site and you wishing he would never come back to DU.

you've said in the past you've been having these same arguments on DU for 10 years. So day after day, year after year for a lot longer than me you've been at it. When are you ever going to get sick of it?

the ones you thought would be going after the conservatives spending more time going after their own. My mistake.

But they KNOW what "fanny" means in the UK and you damn well better believe they'll alert on it!

TBH, it certainly is an ugly thing to say to somebody, regardless of their gender, and is uncalled for in any formal setting, such as the chambers of the Australian Parliament. But I understand, too, that something that may be considered offensive in one place, may not be so much in another.

Meaning: They would knock on your door...

Went out last night and left all me bloody fags in my girlfriends boot.

in the British system, asked me during an in-class essay whether I had a "rubber" he could use, because he had made a mistake. I bit my tongue and didn't laugh and tell him it was too late for a rubber after the mistake had already been made, because of course I knew that they call an eraser a rubber.

Unfortunately, the boys in the front row heard him, too, and they were less able to suppress their giggles. I found out later none of them had any idea that the student was merely asking for an eraser.

A rich new mother lode ready to be mined by the perpetually outraged.

with all those gendered nouns and all.

Any excuse to promote it.

You should not try promoting it then... or at least play it in the 'mens' group where dumb shit like this goes over.

* Here being Australia, not DU...

Because all I've been doing is pointing out the bleeding obvious fact that the word is used differently here than in the US, where it is a gender slur. I mentioned that while I've rarely used it in real life, I'd never ever use it if I were in the US and never use it at DU. For that I was attacked in the original thread by someone who harangued me about how us non-US DUers are merely guests at DU and we need to show cultural sensitivity to Americans, which made no sense at all, seeing the discussion was about how the word's used in Australia...

The OP did nothing of the sort.

Just my POV.

Some Americas think they rule the world.

Went to a country where I used a word that back home didn't mean anything, but where I was at it was highly offensive. I don't think I would get very far.

Customs and offensive words or behaviours are cultural and localized. But you don't get out of seeming rude in France just because in Hong Kong they don't queue up and frequently cut in line as a matter of custom. It will still be offensive in France. How tolerant people would be is dependent on what group of people you are standing around.

That would be an example of what you posted.

It's hopeless and I found trying to be too taxing.

I don't come here to get angry. So I put 15 names on my jury block, put the worst offenders on Ignore for two weeks.

Instantly my DU experience became what I was looking for: a place to read news important to liberals and progressives, and a place to post on issues that matter. Whether or not an Australian politician used a word derived from Latin is not of concern to me. He'll receive the response his constituency deems fit. If it has the same connotations there as here, he'll likely lose his job. I doubt that will be the case.

It's been suggested that the article was only posted to elicit a response to a trigger word. Perhaps that's true, but if someone would try to deliberately bait me in such an obvious way, I'd ignore it and let the topic fizzle out.

Both sides seem to be in it for the chance to vent spleen. Xin Loi.

what words mean and how they are used.

and, her response? Essentially? "Honey, no offence, but that's why people don't like your country". So...yeah.

It seems ok to point out to people on here they are a 'dick' or acting like a 'dick'. I bet the 'dicks' on here in the UK or down-under would just be 'wankers' there.

Body parts are body parts, just different names for different cultures.

She's very polite, rather proper, and a little shy until you get to know her.
Today, apparently for the first time ever, she got riled up enough to call someone a "dick."

We all congratulated her.

The name Richard, short form as Dick, has become so unpopular over the years that some kids do not know that Dick is short for Richard. I was a GM at a local story a few years back, and one of our good customer was named Richard. One day I was working beside a 22-year old and Richard came in. "Hello Dick," I said. We had a short conversation, I called him Dick a couple times. After he left the 22-year old had a cometic look of short across his face. " You called that man a Dick in front of his face!" I about died laughing!

Now returning to your regularly scheduled toxic, distorted, and ultimately pointless war of the genders!

You just have to love the language/thought police (like the Academie Francais) who think they can make any difference.

Just in case nobody got my little joke, merkins have many meanings.

- Obviously one of those poor unfortunates who live on the same continent as the USAr's. Every other country has a possesive form except the merkins - is this because they think they possess everything?

- The very nice president of the U.S.of.A who tried to tell Dmitri (Dr. Strangelove) that he didn't mean to nuke all of the USSR.

- Or the rug worn over the parts of a lady's anatomy in case it might catch a cold (bless you.) In case anyone is following this, I went to a restaurant with friends where they had tried to do noise-abatement by putting pieces of carpet on the underside of every table. Obviously another type of merkin.

Last edited Sat May 17, 2014, 09:46 AM - Edit history (1)

experience with americans, I have found them to be HYPOCRITICAL, preening, oh so self righteous word police who pick certain words to be offended about while screaming bloody murder about words some deemed offensive in our lexicon. All of the British flavored shows I've experienced have used words like the one under discussion, liberally, in their culture. Don't mean nothing. Here in our country because of the usage, liberally, of the n.....word, the c... word, the k... word, the g... word, the w.. word, the s... word, the sand n..... word and the h..... word we have tried to eradicate and/or police linguistic behavior and it is not possible to do. Yes, all those words are extremely offensive to some segments of our population and should not be used in polite company. But you can be damn sure in private company all those words are used every day by multitudes of americans. The overbearing word police tend to sound silly, in my book, when they start screaming about word usage that WILL NEVER DISAPPEAR and most of them in private company use them also. Look how long, for example, the n..... word has been used in this country to describe a race of people. At least 400 years. It's still here and with the current political/sociological climate, being used a lot, even as a description of our POTUS. Americans are a joke trying to police every word in the world and get arrogantly stupid when the policing is not successful. Just my take on this discussion. Bravo you are a 'real one' in my book. That's a positive thing to any word police who might take umbrage to that term.

I mean for heavens to Betsy's sake, how many more threads on this do we have to read. You are making DU miserable.

Just because you think something doesn't mean it's true.

Stop spamming this board with all this nonsense meant to do nothing but cause divisions.

See how this works..... I'm only repeating what I hear so often. and this post is <sarcasm>

but this is an American forum that spends a great deal of time talking about American politics. (Did I stumble into an Australian political forum?)

So I can see how some American women might have found the post offensive. They may not understand the rules of Australian slang nor should they need to unless they're planning a trip to Australia. Nor should they have to put up with the word on this American forum. The word equals the N word to me. I just don't want to hear it and it's one reason I absolutely hate British comedy.

I can't imagine the possible confusion some young American homosexuals might have if they came onto an American board to find some Brit talking about leaving her fags at home.

I am a bit stunned. I knew that as a woman and feminist I ranked low around here, but I guess it didn't occur to me that anyone on a liberal message board would feel compelled to take up in defense of a right-wing Australian politician over people like me. A RW politicians likes the word, which means that people like me who think our experiences in anyway relevant are emblematic of the "Ugly American." Even a RW pol across the world is more important that the views and experiences of women in American offended by such language. Truly astounding.

Will we next hear that another group--say LGBT Americans--have no business being offended by references to them by RW politicians in Uganda? Or is it just women whose concerns must be subordinated to right-wingers?

Not one single person here is defending Pyne or his politics. And it's not just him who 'likes' the word. It's commonly used here, and as many DUers, including this woman, feminist, and Australian, has been pointing out, it's not used as a gender slur in Australia.

It'd be a whole different matter if those offended were complaining about an American politician using the word, or it being used at DU, but it's not. They're outraged because people told them that there are cultural differences in language in English speaking countries, and in Australia it's not used as a misogynistic slur...

insulting those of us who had no knowledge of that thread, as the Ugly American because we are hurt by the use of that word?

The only reason this word in particular is being singled out for special protection is precisely because many women here view it as a hateful. These very same members express outrage if anyone suggests that America doesn't lead the world in gender equality. The point in all of these threads minimizing sexism and misogyny is the same.

I guess folks got tired of telling black people that their experiences of racism didn't matter and felt it was time to move on to another segment of the population. The same thing happened after the objectification threads were shot down. They moved right on to race.

They wouldn't have been talking about you. But I can tell you that as a woman, a feminist, and an Australian, I found it pretty revolting to wake up this morning and find someone in that thread attacking me for not being 'culturally sensitive' and unlike Americans, merely being a guest at DU because I dared to correct redqueen on her false claims that in Australia it is a gender slur. That's the reason I totally agree with what the OP in this thread said.

what this was about for you.

I consulted some Australian dictionaries, most of which do not include the term at all. I did find this definition in the
Macquarie Dictionary, which the author identifies as your country's national dictionary.

Most of the definitions listed related to women's genitalia and women more generally, while others don't specify gender.