This case would have never been pursued if it hadn't been exposed those who are being charged with sensationalizing and exploiting the issue. It appears to me that the authorities didn't investigate the incident properly and this young man's death would have been justified and the case closed with Zimmerman regarded as a model upright citizen and hero for protecting his neighbors from a dangerous Black thug. End of story.

It was the media, with all off its faults that you have correctly pointed out, that has revealed that this young man's death was certainly subject to further investigation. The facts that are being revealed, in my estimation, demand further investigation than was originally the intent of the authorities.

Just on the surface, I would think that this so-called Stand Your Ground law, would seem to apply more to the Trayvon Martin who was killed rather than to Zimmerman. The kid armed Ice Tea and Skittles was certainly no match for a grown man, who incidentally has a rather checked past at best, who was armed with a 9mm gun.

thanks.

Recommending this because of your thoughtful statements. I wonder how many OTHER DU'ers will run up against the Zimmerman defenders/Martin detractors.

As Melissa Harris-Perry just asked on her morning show today, how innocent and pure must a victim be?

That's what we've come down to, as far as I can tell. It no longer matters what the facts are, what science might tell us, what the actual laws on the books are. We've reached a point where people will stick to the reality that they 'believe' rather than anything objective. Thus, in the case of the Trayvon Martin case, there unfortunately seems to be a mass of people in America for whom it is absolutely impossible that Trayvon could be the victim, that the police did anything wrong, that the Stand Your Ground law is an act of insanity, that the use of deadly force in civil altercations should not be allowed, or that maybe the white guy (or guys) is the villain.

As far as I'm concerned, regardless of who wins legally in this case, our country - the United States of America - has lost. Lost its mind, lost its soul. If true justice is served and Zimmerman is properly arrested and tried, and all wrongdoings are appropriately punished, then those who 'believe' that Trayvon was at fault will simply see this as proof that they are the victims. If Zimmerman gets away with it, it will simply add to the public anger and cynicism that the system is gamed, bought and run for the benefit of the gun lobby, of white people, of the rich and/or politically well-connected. I see nothing but continued public anger, tension, strife, disagreements and potentially an escalation of open hostility between Americans.

The truth is already dead, one way or another.

This is precisely what has disturbed me. It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with a large percentage of people anymore. Everyone "feels" or "believes" things to be true. No one "thinks" or "proves" their position anymore. If you ask anyone a few logical questions that shows their position to be in error, you simply get a shrug in response with a "that's how I feel" or "that's my opinion". You can't argue with feelings.

This faith based system of analysis and decision making is disastrous for our society. We as a democracy, will no longer be able to make logical decisions about, law, science, health, or economics. However, the rest of the world will. So the USA will be relegated to third world status. I do not see this turning around in the 30 or so years I have left on this planet.

Everyone "feels" instead of reasons. I've noticed this, too. People simply can no longer separate themselves from the argument. It *is* them. There's no reasoned debate any more. It's all or nothing, black or white, my team vs. your team. Magical thinking and reasoning...

Sigh.

I fear for where we are headed.

Try being an atheist in the bible belt. Like you say, once this people believe something, all the evidence in the world can not lodge that belief from their heads. K&R to the OP

And when you do have a discussion and find you're "winning" due to facts and logic, the "faith-based debater" pulls out the ol' "We can agree to disagree" conclusion, effectively shutting down the discussion.

For example, I had an "discussion" with my sister last year. She is vehemently "anti-union" and believes "If The Man is signing your paycheck, you do what The Man says." To illustrate the need for unions, I brought up the Massey Mine disaster and asked her if there had been a union to put pressure on the company to follow safety regulations, would 25 miners have died? If a union had threatened to strike if safety issues weren't addressed by management, would the owners have ignored the problems? We went back and forth a few times until she pulled out the "Well, we can agree to disagree" excuse.

No, Sis...we can't "agree to disagree" when you refuse to recognize logic and facts.

I don't talk much with my Sis these days...

With whites becoming the minority race in this country it will only get worse. I see a pre war Germany being set up right now. The media and it's owners are largely responsible and complicit in giving credence to the very hot sparks that feed this coming fire.

Good people need to see what time it is and act.

Good post.

However letting the media form your opinion is in your control
and I don't believe people need to turn on a TV/radio to have an opinion; it is already formed and generational
and remember all the "good" people in Germany who turned or buried their heads.

People not only make decision in the absence of facts, they resent when facts are presented to them and reject those facts out of hand precisely beause they go against their magical thinking. I believe this country is in serious trouble in this country, and our leadership is unable, or unwilling to lead us out of it.

and Zimmerman is cleared will you accept it.

Is that both sides, or is that just our side?

Who are "some" of the folks managing this media-driven tragedy?

Does that include Sharpton and O'Donnell?

http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/

"It’s part of the tragedy of this case that a 13-year-old has been dragged in this mess. But O’Donnell has been picking and choosing and misstating facts all through the course of this spreading disaster, pimping himself for his courage and greatness as he does. In the passage we’ve quoted above, he complained about the “rank incompetence” of the police, even as he bravely continued to spread his disinformation."

You're stretching to put a fine point on this. All we have right now are our opinions. I'm fully in Travon's corner. There's really no daylight at all between his family's supporters and his defenders and my own feelings and opinion.

As for the rest, and others, I can only listen and observe (and try and defend my own positions). Do I really have to characterize the perniciousness of the media for you?

Btw, I think Al Sharpton is a fine man and a dedicated and committed activist for many progressive causes and issues. I don't have any beef at all with him.

If I tell you (as I directed my comments to the community here) that I'm inclined to accept that you are fair and reasonable, I'd think that would be a welcome attitude from a poster.

would say that I am bull-headed and stubborn.

I think that most people are like that, to a degree. Nobody wants to be wrong, and even less to admit that they were wrong. As the quote goes (one whose source I have forgotten, other than Reader's Digest's "Quotable quotes" section)

"Given a choice between
a. Changing their mind, and
b. proving that there is no need to do so
most people will get busy on the proof."

As for Sharpton, I mostly like him. However, he seems to have spread misinformation about the Martin case.

"STUTZMAN (3/24/12): There is a great deal of misinformation surrounding the Trayvon Martin shooting. Here are some of the most prominent misunderstandings:

Cops returned the gun to shooter George Zimmerman.

Untrue, according to police. Sanford Officer Tim Smith handcuffed Zimmerman, and then pulled from a holster in Zimmerman's waistband the black Kel Tec 9 mm PF9, a semiautomatic. The gun is now in the possession of authorities, officially part of the evidence in the case."

Whereas Sharpton had been repeatedly claiming that Zimmerman was allowed to keep his gun.

Somerby has spent years pointing out that the media spreads novelized tales, does not present the facts, but presents narratives as facts. Narratives that fit into a script.

However, he gets in trouble with the tribe when he points out that "our" side does it too, and when it turns out that a script which is pleasing to us really isn't true.

There is plenty of perniciousness to go around. I am not in Trayvon's corner. Neither am I against him. However, I do observe that some of his supporters seem to be overzealous.

As in most public cases like this one, we tend to think back to our own families and our own vulnerabilities as we defend our individual opinions. That's not a trivial or contrived reaction, from most, I believe. There are unresolved and active issues involving race and its relationship with the efforts and actions of our law enforcement and justice systems. Many of these go to the heart of what many would regard as their citizenship rights. It may well be a projection, but it's natural, I think, for folks to relate these events to their own life experiences and the resolution and disposition of which can be both symbolically and substantively significant to them.

I mentioned Rodney King. I remember wearing a black ribbon to work the day of the nationwide protest. I had to work and couldn't attend the protest event so it was said that we could demonstrate our solidarity by wearing the ribbon. When my store manager (an open Reagan supporter) saw it he knew immediately what it was and demanded I remove it. We have a pretty good company and I called the race relations manager at corporate and was first told no. I explained that I had heard that the inner city stores were handing them out to employees and I was put on hold. She came back and told me that she had confirmed this and that I'd be able to wear it in my suburban store.

I still have that ribbon. To me, the incident and the system's response said to me, a black, young American male, that I had no full citizenship rights in this country; not as long as Mr. King was denied his. That's where this relates and that's where emotions run deep. Think about it.

Most assuredly, the media firestorm regarding this incident is open for debate. However, one glaring FACT of this incident is irrefutable: a young BLACK child was killed. That is, and will remain, the crux of this entire debate. I find it both logical and understandable that some of Trayvon's supporters "seem to be overzealous."

but young black children are killed every day. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=448935 Does Trayvon matter more than Jalisa or Ranisha? Not to me, he doesn't. There have been over 900 homicides in America since Trayvon died. Perhaps we could be doing something about the bigger picture. Perhaps we could be reducing the amount of hate and violence in this country. It seems to me that the media firestorm from our side is trying to stir up a whole bunch of black vs. white hatred, mistrust and ill will. Something I don't think is very productive.

Is that the others are being treated as crimes, with the perpetrator being prosecuted.

and even if that was the case, the young black person would be no less dead, and the violence and killing continues unabated.

http://homicide.kansascity.com/victims/36/

"no suspects have been arrested for this crime"

http://www.kmbc.com/news/30639826/detail.html

Three people arrested, but no charges have been filed. As of April 2nd, I cannot find an article about charges being filed.

One other difference between the three cases is that Trayvon was killed by a non-black. So this incident can be used to stir up hatred between blacks and non-blacks. Because one young man was killed in this incident, the country can be told what a serious problem it is that young black men are profiled and suspected of being thugs. Whereas, apparently, the deaths of these other 900 people, many of them also young and black, are not a serious problem.

I guess Trayvon is still going to school and Zimmerman is a cop?

Oh wait...

This story is pregnant with race, and yes....white privilidge.

is from the OP

"I think we're heading for a larger collision of impressions and perceptions of each other, based on our impressions and perceptions of this case. Of course, we're rational. Of course, we're reasonable and fair. But, we're also impressionable and vulnerable to the emotional and pernicious manipulations of some of the folks managing this media-driven tragedy."

I would say that some in the media are pushing the race angle and pushing their notion of white privilege.

Drips with white .... Oh never mind. The us has absolutely zero issues with race.



Have a good day.

The misinformation is spread by for-profit entertainment that we have in the U.S. now in place in journalism. Rupert Murdoch's empire is behind a lot of that, and so is Clear Channel radio, which broadcasts Rush Limbaugh and a bunch of even more hateful crap as part of the Republican strategy. It's all fear, fear, fear 24/7.

I have a distant family member who listens to hate radio all the time. Another relative tells me that he's gone completely around the bend. He believes that we are on the edge of a race war. He's stockpiling weapons. He believes every hateful extreme right-wing thing we've ever heard and probably some we've been lucky enough never to hear. I am not in contact with this relative (by choice). I haven't spoken to him in years and don't plan to, but I have no doubt that he is convinced that George Zimmerman is a hero.

The war on drugs keeps a vast number of young black people locked up in prisons and provides convenient "evidence" of the need to fear black people. Meanwhile, truly violent individuals like George Zimmerman get charges dropped again and again.

People will say, "Well, George Zimmerman is Hispanic, so it proves that this is not about race." Those people don't know anything about Florida. It's hard to know where to begin to explain.

Our country has gone insane. The top 1% control all the wealth and power. The rest of us are fighting over scraps. We can't even agree to give one another access to health care. Greed is destroying the country.

Total AGI in 2007 was 8.7985 trillion (according to IRS statistics).

The top .1% got 1.04 trillion of it.
The top 1% got 1.79 trillion of it.

Leaving about $7 trillion for the 99%. Estimating that there are 310 million of us. 99% of that is 307 million.

Thus, in 2007, the 99% had $22,801 for every man, woman, and child.

That seems like a pretty big scrap to me, although it is now less than I make. I even make more than my equal share of the whole pie, which would be $28,382. Whereas I make about $32,310.

Point is, that we fight over scraps not just because of the 1%.

The top 5% get 3.29 trillion, or 37% of the total
The top 10% get 4.23 trillion, or 48% of the total.
The top 50% get 7.72 trillion, or almost 88% of the total.

There is the scrap-fighting. The bottom 50% dividing up a mere 12% of the pie.

But it's not just the top 1%. The top 4%, the top 9% have good slices as well, and they mostly do not want to share with the bottom 95% or the bottom 90%. They only want to share with the top 1%.

... & more
Tax Stats, straight from the source!

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=102886,00.html

Finally, I have had enough of you, and your argumentative, condescending nay-saying.

Our entire planet must contend with the consequences of radical income inequity. Those with power (and the vast majority of this planet's resources) continue to push technologies that pollute, and threaten to destroy our species. A growing number of us are doing what we can to change this, before it's too late.

Nit-picking about the minutiae of 'scrap-fighting' is just another red herring, and an egregious waste of time and energy. I hope you will consider redirecting your time and efforts.

That should be pretty obvious from the pie. Those with 27% of the income (the 1%), consume fewer resources than those with 73% of the income. Most of us can probably do more to conserve and recycle.

If we are "fighting over scraps" it is often because people with a good sized "scrap" look at somebody who has more and says "I want more too".

I happen to enjoy facts and statistics. I am sorry if that annoys you.

As far as what "a growing number of us" are doing to change things, I'd love to see the plan. What do you think would be a better use of my time and efforts?

very well reasoned and cool headed. It's situations like this Zimmerman case that turn me off to DU and it reminds me of the emotional irrationality over at Free Republic. I try to keep an open mind about Zimmerman (innocent until proven guilty) but right now the facts are piling up and in this case (unlike OJ) I feel justice will ultimately be served and Zimmerman will likely end up like Dalmer.

BTW, I am a member of the "10%" and completely agree with your economic analysis

Dalmer was convicted of first degree murder. Most legal observers believe that if Zimmerman is charged it will be for something like manslaughter, not murder. As a first offender, he would probably be out of prison in about three years. He has been charged with crimes before but never convicted so he would be considered a first offender. This doesn't take into consideration a possible federal civil rights charge.

The more they keep that shit up about chasing black kids out of their neighborhood, the harder the jerk when they realize that Trayvon was murdered. And, yes, they keep that shit up and there will be rioting once the truth comes out.

A fair chunk of this country is firmly in a state of denial. Denial of climate change. Denial that President Obama was born in Hawaii.

And when the facts come out about the killing of Trayvon Martin, they will decide that it is all a plot by the "liberal media." The ordinary Fox News viewer will be sure it's part of a scheme to reelect the president, but the more paranoid and/or white supremacist elements will decide the intention is to incite a race war while taking away the gun rights that would allow them to defend themselves in such a war.

We have the makings of a "stabbed in the back" narrative here, and that sort of thing never turns out well.

What I expect to happen, which is already happening with some Republicans, is they want to know why this has turned into a white vs. black thing when Zimmerman was an hispanic.

They forget about the bi-cultured upbringing, and especially, they forget that his daddy judge gave him a way of life that often leads to behavior that none of us would ever consider because we know we don't have the strings to pull us out of trouble.

They were very angry about the case to begin with, and I found some "news" articles with quite a bit of spin/propaganda in them and walked the kids through identifying the techniques and why they're propaganda. There's a lot out there, sadly, and I was so proud of my students for seeing through it so quickly and asking the right questions from the start.

There's still hope for the generation coming up, but you're right: racism's more than alive and well in American. It's actually growing in some areas.

Thank you!

(for being a teacher who cares!!)

That's why teachers are so easy to take advantage of--we care about our students more than most other things and tend to ignore when we're getting taken to the cleaners.

My students are amazing, and it's an honor to work with them most days. They were seeing right through all the propaganda from the right-wing so easily and then did pretty well applying that skill to new and different pieces of propaganda on the assessment. I'm pretty proud of them today.

You're teaching your students to think critically. To question what they hear and read about. Good for you!

Critical thinking is a very important tool and it does need to be taught.

Do you allow your students to sit in class and have discussions among themselves without doing anything more than making them stay on subject?

I think it's the most effective way for them to learn to read and think critically as long as all voices are heard and encouraged.

My juniors finished Frankenstein this week by having a mock trial and putting the creature and Victor on trial for the murders in the novel. I had to teach them a lot about how court works, how to build a case, how to make a ruling based only on the law and the evidence presented in the trial, and how to handle perjury. We had a lot of fun, and most of them seemed to have learned something.

Good teachers are so underrated! Yet they are uniquely situated to influence more people than any other profession. A good teacher like you will be a positive life changing influence on hundreds of kids. They'll remember you for the rest of their lives.

skills with them for life -- the ability to see through the media, to question authority, to think for themselves.

You rock!

I hope they remember this skill. It's so important for life.

My 8th grade English teacher spent some time teaching us about propaganda techniques, and giving examples of them. It was one of the most valuable lessons I ever learned in school. I use what I learned in his class daily.

It is so powerful it can make a good, kind man support child rape. I kid you not.

Back when the bushes were finishing out their Supreme Court appointment and right after the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib came out, I had a conversation with a very religious man. He was always calm and collected and he tried to follow a true Christian path. He was kind and loving to his family and believed in charity and forgiveness. He was smart and I enjoyed talking to him.

But when I argued that torture never works at getting the truth, when I explained to him that American soldiers were raping 14 year old boys and calling it interrogation, he said to me that he would rather have 100 little boys raped then one American soldier die.

Three months later, I repeated back what he had said to me and he blushed, ashamed.

He has since moved and I don't have hour long conversations with him anymore. But I will always remember how the propaganda and spin the bushes put out about torture even turned his head.

Used for nationalism...
It causes the "troops: to become so idolized that morality is put out the window....nothing they do can ever be wrong.

Shame's not enough for his statement.

He should have put a gun to his own head.

will directly affect my respect meter.

Folks defend Zimmerman one day, then claim moral indignation for a Government "attack" on religion the next.

These cultists scare the living crap out of me. We have a Rev. Jim Jones-like following on a national scale.

EXCELLENT comparison! You're right.

And they scare the living crap out of me, too. I think when we dismiss them or scoff at their stupidity/ignorance, we do so at our own peril.

It must be linked on another site or two.

I just turned on the social media buttons to see if it was shared and not a single soul has done so - probably Freepers/Stormfront getting ready for another troll attack.

+1

I wonder how many of these Zimmerman apologists who claim 'the black kid must of been up to no good' before they have really heard anything but media innuendo and rumor are the same ones that had OJ Simpson convicted (no I don't want to re-argue that case and OJ's ultimate guilt or innocence isn't the point) before his team had even been able to put up a defense. Isn't it interesting that in each of these cases their off the cuff conclusions cited the 'black guy' as being in the wrong even without any real evidence one way or the other. Do you think there may be some significance in this?

True story from where I live...

We had an older African American couple move in with their grand daughter about a year ago. Most of my neighbors were troubled. Me, I have zero issues. We talk, offered to help kid with her history work, she was having some issues.

You want to know the issues? I sent a tongue lashing to the school district. It wasn't the kid, nope, the material sanitized the African Experience. I call that the Texas effect. Oh never mind California also publishes textbooks.

The sheepish answer, well eight graders aren't ready.

I sent another tongue lashing, having grown in another country and exposed to the Holocaust since Kindergarden, I did not buy the let's protect the kids bullshit.

She wrote a paper referencing actual slave bills of sale for that class, yup, i got them...properly footnoted by Chicago manual of style. She got an A...and me and the school district are not exactly in the best of terms. I don't have kids, but damn it, kids are not ready to read that dead slaves or indentured were thrown off in open sea like yesterday's garbage. Oh she included the white experience of indentured servitude, for "balance." Can't say school liked that much either.

Good for you and the girl!!

One of my proudest days was when my six year old son told me all about Rosa Parks and MLK Jr and the civil rights movement. I'll never forget it or the look of earnestness and concern on his young face. I just let him tell me all about it and he did, without making a single mistake.

I busted buttons in my pride that day.

This white washing of American History "to protect the children" does not help us get beyond this issues and heal. It is not different from Washington Irving's George could not tell a lie bullshit.

She was having issues because she challenged the teacher regularly in the white washing, with sources.

They admitted that they were under constant pressure from concerned parents not to trouble the children.

As a people, I think, we need to face the truth of our history in order to heal. My friend and I used to debate all the time about cultural, historical relativism. My argument was that if there was an awareness that the policy was immoral, wrong from even a small group, then you can't hide behind cultural relativism and shrug if off. (we were arguing the issue of slavery)

Most of the repugs would love to push the idealized history, and some of it is pure fabrication. That doesn't help us as a nation grow or become aware citizens. Of course, that's exactly what they want.

suchinstitution such as slavery. In-fact when writing and reading history that is fundamental. We had this discussion in a Historical method class. I made, without knowing, a minority argument in the states...you can understand it, but also understand it's moral folly. I used the Holocaust and Nuremberg effectively. I even changed the view on that from the professor, who was a friend of relativism.

The fundamentalists, whether they be religous, economic, or social, seem to retreat further and further into their beliefs with not only little regard for opposing viewpoints but more often open scorn for facts and reality.

This gated community has middle class folks of many colors.

They had the problem of a gunshot from a self appointed vigilante.

Scared of a multicultural society, aren't you?

Enjoy your stay.

Hey I wished him enjoyment of a brief stay...thirty seconds IS brief.

Ha!
Always the symptoms of what we see happen after a bad rash of Neocon Principles being exposed (forced) upon society,

These loops are becoming just plain silly, now.

Social (societal - in case that word hurts and lurking bagger's ears) harmony starts from the top down.

just need to get our Pres. across that Finish Tape, and know the next four are going to receive some much needed repair - and it will happen.

Holding out More than hope on that one

Welcome to DU

And this poster is gone...in a flash! Oh, the huge manatee!

Flash Mobs!!!!

Behold the Flash Mob in action!! Flee for your lives!

What will its user name be this time? Anyone wanna guess? Anyone care?

Definitely Mauve. Gentrified Mauve. Because they are gay flash mobs attacking the area with their flamboyant colors, understanding of diversity, and their longing for the right to marry. How dare they.

I think you meant melanzana or moolie for fake tag just say it

Please post a link to a story about a Mayor anywhere filling up empty apartments in good neighborhoods with people from the projects. And please post links to the shootings, flash mobs and other assorted mayhem caused in the suburbs by children raised without fathers.

Thanks. I noticed that after I replied.

I can see that.

Thing is, there is a basic thread that runs through our system of justice which allows our citizens to be regarded as responsible and legitimate, until proven otherwise. I think that most law enforcement takes care to make certain that their authority isn't some sort of paternalistic overlord and takes pains to restrain themselves from regarding folks as potential criminals. That's the heart of this case. There's an unschooled, inexperienced, mostly unaccountable figure in Mr. Zimmerman (armed) assuming the complex task of maintaining that line between suspicion and an assumption of guilt. In my opinion, he failed that (assumed) responsibility miserably; tragically, no matter who you view as the aggressor in this incident. The folks in those neighborhoods you describe aren't automatically placed in some special category; their rights to be regarded as outside of our constitution and our civil rights -- just because they live in a high crime area. Mr. Zimmerman was in no position to make those critical judgments in his voluntary, unofficial role as community defender and enforcer. It's painfully evident.

we're going back to civil rights era, I'm marching this time. Enough.

You're making the mistake of thinking that these people can be rational and logical about simple facts when they're already biased beyond redemption.

It's a fact hat everyone make investments from which they expect some kind of return. Your acquaintances have obviously invested in their own white privilege.

By doing this, they risk that investment by agreeing with your point of view.

You've not going to get them to consider otherwise unless they start investing in a more just and equal society.

I'm not getting that impression at all from these crazy-ass Zimmerman defenders. I get the impression that they're pretending to believe what they say. They have to, don't they? They can't just say, "Of course he ran down that ....... and shot him, so what? I'm glad he did! No one should go to jail for killing them!" So they put on this ridiculous act instead.

I see it in their eyes where I work-the look of a lie, the look that I know it's a lie, the look of shame coupled with pure hate on their faces.

I'd feel sorry for my co-workers if they were just ignorant, but they know better and choose to be as they are.

out right hate will play later in life
The fairytales are better for upbringing

that's pretty much my take on it. just like zimmerman himself and the keystone kops and the state attorney who drove down to make sure the killer did not get arrested, they don't think a 17-year-old black boy is hardly even worth the bullet it took to kill him. but they can't say that straight up so they engage in all manner of spin. trouble is it's not working because the facts, those pesky things, are simply not on their side.

I have always believed they were pretending. I find it hard to believe that anyone actually believes that a person's skin color and/or heritage has anything to do with their ability to learn, their morals, work ethic, etc.

They have to pretend that they believe this crap to keep their white privilege.

I'm certain it's an act. I have a hard time believing that anyone is that stupid.

automatically are guilty. I will never understand people like that. We have a big hugh population of African-americans going in the military to fight for their freedoms and they can't walk down a street.

I pray that the Martin family will get their justice. This isn't fair what is going on. At least arrest Zimmerman and let it go through the courts system.

They need to get rid of the law that allows people to use this law as a defense.

will truly be tested someday when the roles are reversed.
A minority person will one day feel threatened by a redneck and take appropriate action according to the law. Someone may assume a white redneck to be armed and dangerous, a good assumption, and just blow them away as a precaution.

If it had been Trayvon with the gun and Zimmerman dead on the street, the headlines would have been something like:

"Gunman Shot Dead by SWAT Team after Murdering Neighborhood Watch Captain"

dramatic when I said that had the roles and colors been reversed, TRAYVON would have NEVER MADE IT TO THE STATION ALIVE!! The reason I can say this is because it's happened OVER AND OVER AND OVER but usually doesn't see the light of day. Had the SELF-APPOINTED "watch captain" been black and the victim white. well= SAME OUTCOME! He just would have been arrested first but they would still be a better than average chance that he would not make it to the trial alive AND if he did, he would DEFINITELY get death penalty.

You work with racists.

If the races were reversed, they'd be calling for Zimmerman to be hanged from a tree and have the trial later.

The Tea Party has made it chic to be a Racist again, not that it ever really went away and the Martin shooting has pretty much dropped the requirement for code words and dog whistles.

I'm done giving people a benefit of a doubt. They don't dislike Obama because of policy differences, they don't like him because he's BLACK, one of the "Blah People", and a "nig-".

And people actually debate whether Ron Paul's hypothetical store owner saying he doesn't have to serve Blacks in his store or not scenario has any credence?

This country is really starting to disgust me.

that Trayvon was walking in his own neighborhood...would they chase down kids walking in their own neighborhood?

it's racism. not very complex at all imo. i hope this is its death throes, and i believe that the haters and the racists are steadily becoming more rare, and those of us who value all human life and respect it on its face are becoming ever more numerous.

it just sucks that so many people are lining up on the racist side of this argument. discouraging. Trayvon was murdered and his killer has still not been arrested. that is just plain bullshit!

Exact same garbage we have seen in the south for 400 years: black victim, white criminal, therefore the victim must really be a criminal and the criminal must really be a hero.

These people are more racist that George Wallace.

That being said, I live in Durham, and, to my chagrin, was wrong about the Duke Lacrosse case. Nonetheless, I think we have a better handle on the facts than we did at this point in that case, though I do think folks do need to exercise some caution.

In this case, though, everything points to Zimmerman being an extremely well-connected, troubled young man with paranoid fantasties of heroism who acted them out on an unarmed boy.

want to feel that way. This is not the country I grew up in anymore. I am tired of the constant political fighting and these people are willing to take this country down or you and me strictly for their own ideology. I am sorry, I know you can say it is on both sides but the people I know on the right are not into compromise, listening to other peoples' points of view or anything that is out of their line of beliefs. I see it as mostly a right-wing christian thing.

That is what is happening here, they listen to media such as fox news, Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity who feeds them exactly what they want to hear and there you go, the truth doesn't matter to them.

Just a thought.

Surely the Zimmerman defenders understand that.

. . . doesn't it?

To presume that there was justification for what Zimmerman did, there has to be an assumption that there was something equally pernicious that Trayvon was doing. That's where these assumptions come in which are based on stereotypes about black youth that African Americans have been subject to for decades. The significance of that is the long history of police overreaction and abuses toward members of the black community which has been presumed to be based on these same negative stereotypes of black males.

Zimmerman was certainly an 'aggressive gunman, but the fact that he was acting in a self-appointed role as an arbiter of order in his neighborhood has draw others to identify his actions with their own determination that it's just fine and proper to make these stereotypical judgments in defense against the perceived danger from these figures; these images; these black youth that they readily associate with crime and violence.

To accept that it is understandable to assume this black youth was the aggressor in this incident is a precursor to a defense of Zimmerman. It's just too familiar to many of us to disassociate this incident from the racial preconceptions which have plagued the African-American community for decades.

He was white, a drug addict, and by all accounts a thug. People kept posting under the local news site today that they imagined it was someone coming in from "black neighborhoods". Bystanders asked the police if he was black and breathed a sigh of relief to find out that it wasn't a black person because they were praying that the flames of racial prejudice didn't get flamed. STILL, people tried to flame them without knowing the facts on the internet and without knowing what happened in the area.

They assumed the man was black, some people were frightened that he was black, and no one bothered to question whether he had a record for meth possession a mile long, fled from police with a gun in his hand from a motel known for drug trafficking and prostitution, but hasn't been shut down for who knows what reason, before they started getting scared that "OMG, they are going to think our town is like Sanford, FL because we live in the south!".

Think about that for a few minutes.

And I will say with pride that my town doesn't have a reputation for racism. It scared us to death as residents when all of these people started weighing in on a LOCAL damn news channel like they knew what went on in our community. On the whole, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, and Cajuns are rather frightened of these people trying to make something out of a meth addict that fled from a motel with a gun into an "incident". The only incident that happened here was a meth addict waved a gun in the face of decent people, then met his end when he waved it in the face of police.

He was white, he was crazed on meth, and that is sad enough.

The police who shot him, were they black, white or both?

I simply have not heard of the incident. I don't watch TV.

It was just a question.

Sorry.

I'm kind of shaken up by this incident for various reasons, and I apologize if I got short with you.

It really was an open and shut case, no racism whatsoever involved, except the people who tried to inject it into the situation. I can only assume they are people that don't live anywhere near here and were trying to get their rocks of rejoicing that a black person got shot, only to find out it was white meth addict that got what he was obviously looking for when aiming a pistol at police officers (one was black, two were white).

Looks like we may be commemorating it with another set of riots if they don't get their act together soon.

4/29/92. I live in L.A. and I remember it like it was yesterday. Definitely one of the strangest three days I've ever experienced.

By gadfreys! You're right.
I must come out from under my rock more often.

Pardon my ignorance, I was in 7th and 8th grade during the Rodney King attack/trial. I don't recall hearing anyone defend the attackers. That could be because I was raised by sane people who wouldn't defend police brutality, but still...Rodney King's attackers had defenders?

. . . both in the media and in public.

Hannity's first big-city success in talk radio came on Atlanta's WGST-AM, where by all accounts he was no less confrontational than in California. African-American clergy groups, according to the Atlanta Journal and Constitution (9/15/95), charged WGST with spreading hatred on the airwaves, specifically citing Hannity's show. The paper reported (3/27/96) on Hannity's campaign to get "Oscar attendees to wear blue ribbons, in support of the L.A. police officers who beat Rodney King."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1158

And thanks for that link.

People were saying "Oh, he has a record a mile long, he's high on coke and crazy, don't you know, 'those people' on coke don't know their own strength, weren't the police 'good' to not shoot him and just beat him down instead, he was 'resisting' and those poor police 'had to do it' even though they didn't want to..."

I was unable to reconcile the video with that kind of bullshit excuse. I wasn't living in USA at the time, so I didn't see the video in regular rotation like people did here, but two or three times was enough. I was horrified. How could anyone do that and live with themselves?

Good on you for being strong enough to try. I'd like to, but I've been too angry since 2000. I lose my temper way too fast on these matters, so I just tend to walk away.

Whenever I get remotely close to the Reality Of Mordor, my fight or flight response kicks in. I wish I could be more like Obama, or Randi Rhodes. I have no patience with that stuff, none, zero.

Good on you for making the attempt.

And your post is dead on.