Upon a time I was under the impression that this forum, collectively, was probably fairly liberal when it came to issues of race and gender. Now? Not so much.

It's just that not every genuine liberal on this site is a radical who believes that all men are potential rapists or that all white people have, and even actively 'benefit'(ha!) from, collective "privilege" just for being white.....and, at least for the latter, it goes the other way around as well(i.e., not every person who believes in said "white privilege" is a liberal).

To make a long story short.....you may very well have a rather different, or perhaps far more stringent definition of "liberal" than most others, myself included, would have.

Sorry, but you know, if you happen to be a woman, walking home alone at night? All men are potential rapists. And yes, white people have privilege by virtue of race in the USA. (Mental exercise for you: two men, one white, one black. Both dressed in new suits, cleanshaven, short haircut, driving BMW's. Which one is more likely to be pulled over by the cops? You can repeat that mental experiment with just about every configuration of external socioeconomic signifier, and I can tell you it probably ain't going to be the white guy.)

Thanks for providing a pretty concise illustration of the point I'm making, by the way.

(Mental exercise for you: two men, one white, one black. Both dressed in new suits, cleanshaven, short haircut, driving BMW's. Which one is more likely to be pulled over by the cops? You can repeat that mental experiment with just about every configuration of external socioeconomic signifier, and I can tell you it probably ain't going to be the white guy.)

I'll leave it at that.

And while some may gnash their teeth and rend their clothes at its mere existence, it's here to stay. Feel free to notify the site admins if you believe it has somehow snuck onto this site.

but I generally keep quiet about it!

Seriously. DU discussions haven't changed my mind.

I've sure learned a lot!

And not just because I'm getting soft in the head.

I do enjoy some of the better threads. But I've started to look forward to the funnier ones.

Some years ago you could find them here....

that's more important to me than some polisci "opinion shift" from A to B or C

Where people present their views and arguments. I also try to understand the view from the other persons perspective

For issues where I am factually wrong, those are easy to have your mind changed.

For issues that are more gray it isn't as clear cut, but I have been persuaded

The most recent in my case involved a perspective from the Game Of Thrones, where my perspective was changed

...and every day. Much of the time, the MSM angle leaves out certain nuances. When I get to DU (a board with the MOST ASTUTE and BRILLIANT posters I have ever encountered in my 20 years on the intertubes) some issues become crystal-clear.

DU's been my Home Page since 2002.

Don't sell yourselves short, DU'ers. There's really good stuff here every single day.

or to shift a little.

There are a lot of silly arguments that go on - people who aren't convincing because they are using a bad argument.

I still support the principle in cases of absolute proof (which is not an unattainable bar these days) but mostly oppose the actual practice.

DNA can be planted. Eyewitnesses can be completely mistaken. Forensic "experts" can be totally wrong. Police can lie. Confessions can be coerced.

...each of those things can happen. But when you have the kind of evidence used to put away, say, Richard Rameirez, a body of evidence that brings together multiple eyewitness accounts, forensics, police statements, DNA evidence, etc, etc. Then I would suggest that such an ovewhelming body of evidence can be said to constitute absolute proof.

I did change some of my stances over the years as a result of conversations over on Daily Kos.

Links in knowledge are hierarchical. People are emotional. Forcing someone to go back down that tree and rip off a branch, and all its associated subbranches can be terribly traumatic. People will do just about anything to avoid pain, including avoiding knowledge.

One example is Chelsea Manning.

I like to argue because through argument the pros and cons of an opinion can be best presented in my opinion.

Many DUers however don't argue very well. They just poke fun at someone in the news like who dares to point out an unpleasant truth like Glenn Greenwald or they make snide remarks about some other DUer who disagrees with them. There are a number of ways to avoid really discussing something or adding something new to the discussion while still saying something.

But I like it when someone brings in a point of view or a fact that I haven't seen before. That is what changes minds, I think.

I thought his comments about income inequality showed he was more progressive and had more of a social conscience than previous popes. Then Bluenorthwest pointed out about how he was saying NOTHING about the homophobic laws being enacted in Nigeria. That changed my mind about him and I've been skeptical ever since.

me to make up my mind on topics that I hadn't previously explored, and DU discussions certainly help refine my opinions on many topics...

Articulating my position on an issue usually forces me to back up and walk through my process.

There's a surprising amount of news with misleading summaries

Is changing my mind based on new information I learn while arguing.

Du has has changed or modified my stance on many things.

I was leaning toward Dean and some DUers convinced me to take a closer look at DK.

That's the last time anyone on DU convinced me of anything.

I change my mind about many things as I get new information, but what passes for debate on DU doesn't move me, just as any sort of propaganda leaves me cold. You can win any argument with me if you want to be louder, deafer, and more bombastic; I'll lose interest and walk away, leaving the field to you. It doesn't mean you've changed my mind about anything.

Every once in awhile, I'll get bored and bait the bull, or, in this case, the donkey, just for shits and giggles; it can be entertaining to watch someone make him (or her) self progressively more ludicrous. When I finally do leave the theater, I'm envisioning that person rushing off to FB and every other spot on the internet they frequent to froth about the argument, pat her (or him) self on the back for "putting me in my place," and grandly putting him (or her) self up by putting me down...all while I'm laughing, shaking my head, and tossing my empty popcorn bag and red hot tamales box in the trash on my way out.

If you want to convince me of anything, make your case without cliche, fallacy, or over-used propagandistic talking points.

on many things since being on DU, especially on guns. Oh some folks in the gungeon are responsible
for me changing my mind against guns, the more they defend their believes the more I see how f---==g
nuts they are.

I expected an attack in reply to a statement I made, but got a reasoned and detailed response including illustrative links

but I've learned a lot more about issues I care deeply about and had many of my own conclusions verified by some absolutely brilliant posters here. For that I'm extremely grateful.

I have evolved a great deal with regards to feminist issues and LGBT issues as a result of discussions on this forum. Those are probably my biggest areas of change.

I learn the most, and change the most, by listening to people who face different challenges from me. On economic matters, I learn very little here. I'm still convinced I know more about them than nearly anyone else!

Prior to our debate, and it was a very civil one, I was one who considered certain people "illegal" and wanted to erect and wall with a minefield in front of it on the Mexican border. It was arguably Exhibit A for me being an asshole. But Don's persuasion and humanity did a complete 180 on me over the following months and made me a better person. While I hardly talked to him in other threads, I have to say I miss him more than any other member of DU who has passed on, and I wish I could have thanked him for that discussion.

thanx for posting it. its exactly what I was hoping for.