The two wars were never planned well especially for the care of returning vets.
Then the VA was given an unworkable set of goals to meet.

History has had occasions where an individual political party is actually outlawed.

Usually that party becomes a dumping ground for the ugliest things in society before that happens and they end up with a long list of everything they are against and the few things they are for is very short and unpopular.

We're THERE with the Republicans.

They have been fully financed over the years to handle the load. The bureaucracy just got spoiled by the funds over time. Where once you had 5 % admin that would (for example) grow in a particular dept to over 50% admin - less actual doctors and nurses, more figureheads. Most if not all cost increases are approved because after all, it is for our vets health care.
This President, that President - it is no one persons fault.

the republicants have done everything they could from de-funding departments to appointing people who do not believe in government to destroy government agencies. That gives the Greedy Old Pigs the chance to say, "see government can't do anything right".

What they have done to the VA though is more devious. They start wars and then leave the vets out in the cold. Mo medical care, no jobs, no housing. And they have spent 30 years cutting finding regularly so that the VA can not take care of the number of vets the wars create.

Then they had the NERVE to try to get spouses of serving military to justify why they should be allowed to have base housing while their wife or husband was serving in a combat zone. Then they cut combat pay and then had the nerve to claim support personnel serving in a combat zone weren't eligible for combat pay because the bases were secure zones. Then they got busted giving emergency medical discharges to soldiers with fatal wounds so they would not appear on military casualty lists. They would die as a civilian and the Bush Administration took that to the extreme to where they tried to deny survivors benefits.

Amazing there are still guys at the local VA who believe Republicans care more about the Troops.

They NEVER HAVE.

It was REPUBLICANS that fought to deny claims from Agent Orange and Gulf War Syndrome. Looking at the voting records prior to 9/11 showed the DAV giving Dems an 80% or more and Republicans a 20% or less.

Today's Republicans would rather those soldiers didn't come home alive. Dead men don't need health care or job training or education or anything else that may mean Republicans have to pay taxes.

Put all eligible veterans on TRICARE (the insurance active duty, reservists, and retirees currently use) and give them the option of using VA facilities or selecting their own provider outside the VA if they are dissatisfied with the service.

I'm a veteran, many of my family and coworkers are as well, most have less than satisfactory experiences with the medical services. It has grown into a huge inefficient bureaucracy. I don't thinking should be abolished or privatized but it could be revamped quite a bit.

Some competition from TRICARE (a federal government health insurance program) could be healthy because currently the people that depend on the VA services don't have many other choices, a TRICARE option would make the VA have to step it up in order to retain patients and funding.

It should be a benefit for serving and if anything the private sector should have to compete with the VA.

In an ideal world they wouldn't be able to because the VA would be the BEST CARE ANYWHERE.

How do you get that?

MONEY.

Republicans can't STAND the idea of money going into that effort but they have ZERO problem with the money pit of keeping guys with keys in silos containing 70 year old rockets aimed at an enemy that hasn't existed for over 20 years.

And give the vets the option to join what is currently a great federal program with a large existing network and infrastructure.

The VA wouldn't need more money or facilities if a large percentage of vets opted for TRICARE and sought treatment outside the VA. I'm in favor of increasing access and quality of care to vets and the best way to do that right now is give them a TRICARE option.

It was also recently reported that the VA doesn't even spend all of what it gets currently, they routinely run about a 1 Billion surplus every year for the last decade.

....how it can cost less to have the same thing done plus a profit for the 1% that is enough to make them happy.

... But it doesn't do anything without proper leadership and management.

Traits that are lacking at all levels of the VA

You know, where they play the whole "management/labor" conflict and the Vets are told that's more important than their care.

Either that or the classic mountain of paperwork designed to make things as difficult as possible to get what you are owed all in the name of fraud prevention but having the added benefit of having you say, "I give up!!!"

After being involuntarily recalled for two years I received at least ten letters urging me to sign up for VA medical benefits so I finally decided to do it. And they denied my application. Months later got another letter urging me to apply, did, and was denied again.

Haven't heard anything from they lately but I got a federal job and am covered under FEHB now so haven't really pursued it anymore.

You served?

You're in.

At the VA hospital I work at it wouldn't matter how much money was poured into the system.

The crappy attitude, laziness, and selfishness of some of our frontline healthcare workers would still be the same.

They know how to milk and manipulate the system. And without strong, consistent managers who will reign in those workers NOTHING will change. Nothing.

Whatever money they have thrown at the current system never trickles down to the front line. We can't even get a supply of plastic ware to keep on the wards to give vets who may want a snack. We usually end giving them wooden tongue depressers to use. We have wards that have broken printers for weeks and weeks...pfft.."work order has been placed"...sure it has.

Any extra money sure as hell is not going to hire staff. We are constantly short staffed. But, hey...we have cool looking touch screen computer screens on various walls people can use for getting directions (that don't work half the time) and new fake glowing fireplaces that look pretty.

Oh, yeah...and we pay lots of people to work OT who show up to sit around on the computers and socialize...if they are in a good mood they MIGHT go do some patient care.

There's something the OIG could look into...monitor online time. We each have our own log in ID so it should be easy to track. If they truly wanted to know. But no one really does.

We have nurses and techs who are known to FALL ASLEEP on duty. Yes, they have been reportd. No, this is not hidden info. Yes, they stay employed by the VA. They tend to prefer a computer located next to a wall so they can prop themselves when they nap.

The brass can keep their fucking money....just get down to the frontline and CLEAN HOUSE. Those of us who actually DO our jobs are tired of the ones who don't. And it's getting kinda depressing to see the suits in DC who think firing people in DC will fix this system.

Which is why I am hoping that the current scrutiny goes well beyond the wait list problem.

Forget taking facility leaders' "word" that all is well. How about "trust BUT verify"????

The hospital I am at has been ranked 148 out of the 150 VA hospitals for a reason on vet satisfaction surveys. Well, maybe 149 out of 151?? I forget now, but we were second from last til like last year. I think we moved up a few notches now. And when we moved up our execs gloating and ecstatic....really, guys??? We moved up like 5 places at the most.

Why not send independent council or investigators into the bottom, say, 10 or 15 facilities and clean house top to bottom?

Needs an independent equivalent of IG with real teeth...

I bet you have seen like I have that it is almost impossible to fire a federal worker for anything except maybe severe criminal behavior. Where I worked people would literally just sit and stare at the wall sometimes or just click back and forth between emails all day, some were in no way qualified or able to perform the jobs but there was no way to get rid of them. I saw them try to evaluate a guy for performance once because he literally just quit doing anything besides showing up and he reported the whole office to every HR outlet you can imagine, huge shit storm that ended up with everyone else being counseled for harassing him.

From what the people here who have actually worked in the system say it seems almost hopeless.

I cannot tell you how many people I work with like the one you describe! And that is why the ones who DO their job in the VA system or who try to report people like that have given up on the system. It backfires and the system turns on the good ones.
I feel for the people in Phoenix and elsewhere who are doing the right thing or who are helping expose the crooks because while the Feds in DC may have their backs, they are probably going through a daily living hell at work each day, knowing there are targets on their backs. And the peole who are being exposed group together to target the ones trying to fix the system.
Corruption and cronyism is rampant in the VA system. There was a quote from a VA worker whistleblower earlier this week that compared it to "the mafia". Sadly, we've used that phrase before at our facility, too.
Not too long ago, our HR dept was raided by the FBI. Workers there were SELLING jobs at our facility. Yes, selling. Apparently, if an applicant paid $300, they were rushed to the front of the line and given the job. No one knows how long it was going on for...or who exposed it. But the people involved were taken out in handcuffs. So, the phrase "like the mafia" is not that far off the mark.

I am eligible to use it, but don't except to go for my mandatory yearly physical that I have to do so they don't kick me out.

During my period when I was un/underemployed I used it for everything.

It seems like there are either people there who really care and do their best, or people who seem like they work at the DMV- just do whatever, at whatever pace, they know you have no other choice than to deal with it.

Getting an appointment was like pulling teeth. I often got rescheduled, and now I wonder if that was due to some of this nonsense they were doing with the books. When you are working hard just to make ends meet having to reschedule appointments often with your employer that isn't winning you any favors, luckily my boss also was a vet so he understood.

There was no female OB/GYN available at my facility, and I really am not comfortable with a male. Trying to get them to let me move appointments to another VA that had one was a fight- I finally won to get them let me drive for a 3 hour round trip on my own dime to be seen by a female.

I have been really hesitant to share here because I usually have the utmost respect for those in civil service, and I was really hoping my impressions were more in my imagination and me just being mad about having to use the VA because of my situation. But your remarks seeing it from the inside echo what I was seeing- are you in NC?

What are your thoughts on fixing it? How do you get rid of people who won't do the job right in the federal civil service system?

Sorry to hear about all the problems you have had.

IMO, one news report nailed it this morning when they quoted someone connected with
to the VA....we don't need more money, we need a change in culture. It's a phrase I've heard multiple times in relation to VA..."deeply rooted cultural problems within the organization".

To get that done...there needs to be accountability on all levels. From the top level execs down to frontline staff (nurses, techs, ward clerks, housekeeping).
Whenever I have concerns about inappropriate behavior of my co workers I make sure I notify supervisors via email. Mainly because I don't want to hear later on from them if them problems get worse "gosh, I had no idea". Yeah, you did...there's an electronic paper trail.

VA is very good at shell games to make their numbers look good.. Example. Our ER staff and bed control have gotten heat and bad PR about ER wait time. What do they do? They rush the vets to the wards that are severely understaffed. So we often get back to back to back admissions even though we are begging them to space those admissions by 30 minutes or an hour because the care of each new admissions AND the current patients on the ward is being compromised. Their response?
"We gotta get our board and numbers cleaned down here". Translated that means "we gotta make it look good here because this is where we are getting the worst PR".
Problem is..their fake fix is done at the expense of the vets already in the hospital. And no one cares.

They don't take into acuity levels off those sick vets in the hospital wards. Nurses try to explain it..."we have very sick vets up here, staffing is bad". No one cares. All they want to do is "clean up their boards"' downstairs.

I've seen the VA system play their little shell game...they can make the numbers and stats being focused on look very good....and they are very good at hiding how they really "fixed" those stats.

As far as getting rid of the offenders in the system? We need immediate supervisors who have the backbone to document, document, document each time a frontline worker gives bad care, is abusive to fellow co workers----workplace bullying is rampant in the VA system. In all departments. The documentation is needed so when those workers use the words "I'm going to the union!!" management can be ready with their stack of documents detailing the worker's write ups.
Right now, given the bullying done in the system, the good workers are often scared to write up or report the bad ones because it will go no where in the system. Until the good ones start seeing others being held accountable, nothing will change.

Is what you are saying is what I here right wingers saying whenever they claim
Government can't do anything right or efficiently- workers who don't care, a system where it's hard to correct, unions supporting bad workers, bureaucracy so big it just exists to make itself bigger, and the rest of the anti-government propaganda.


Makes me want to pull my hair out, because the more I think about my experiences the more it sounds like what you describe can be the cause.

I've lived it myself. The debate to me is how to fix it but it's pretty hard to deny that it is almost impossible to do anything efficiently inside the federal government system. At my last recent federal job it would take me a couple of hours of preparation, around 25 pieces of paper, and three different signatures to make a single purchase. We were also required to purchase from more expensive sources in many cases unless I filled out 10 more sheets of paper and got more approvals to go outside the system and at that point it just cost more money than was potentially saved so you just say screw it and go through the motions.

It's very frustrating because it's impossible to change anything.

It just creates more and more confusion and costs more to do that. If the VA treated medical personnel better, they wouldn't have such a high turnaround rate and would not be short doctors for some services.

The VA is already partially privatized. That is a big part of the problem. It ran much smoother before they started in with that nonsense.

Easy with much more choice and flexibility...

You had the option of being on TRICARE and could select VA services and/or outside providers in the TRICARE network if you were dissatisfied with the VA performance?

TRICARE was always awesome the times me and my family were on it and we had choices. All vets should have that available.

Pretty much Tricare standard..

I am in favor of TRICARE becoming our single payer system for the entire US. I'd be ok with Vets having priority on appointments (especially emergencies).

The failure of some states to expand Medicaid is leaving a quarter-million veterans without health insurance.

Many assume that all of the nation's veterans are entitled to health care through the Veteran's Administration, but that's not the case; a veteran must have served for two continuous years or the full period for which they were called to active duty in order to be eligible. There are some exceptions — like for individuals who were discharged for a disability sustained in the line of duty — but about 1.3 million veterans remain uninsured nationwide.

According to a report by Pew using analysis from the Urban Institute, approximately 258,600 of those veterans are living below the poverty line in states refusing to expand Medicaid. Without veteran's benefits — and with incomes too low to qualify for subsidies to use on the state exchanges — these veterans are left without affordable coverage options.

Twenty states are staunchly refusing to expand the program, and a few are still debating the issue.

http://www.vox.com/2014/5/21/5738512/states-that-refuse-medicaid-are-leaving-over-250000-poor-veterans

That's the advantage of knowing people don't actually look at voting records.

Oh wait,...we got this Intertubes thing now:

http://votesmart.org/issues/NA/66/veterans#.U4fsNdecFXQ

Democrats and Repubs fully funded the VA over the years. Without much argument from either side. So it grew. And the money grew. Then the admin part of the VA grew out of control, up to 50% larger than it needed to be. Thus the care began to suffer.
This is a govt failure but of course not proof govt 'can't do anything right'.
President Obama is a proven problem solver in these areas. It won't satisfy his detractors because like most problems that take decades to take hold, it will require years to repair.

Vets know the VA has been a problem going back to the Vietnam Era.

The Republican BASE can't remember what they had for dinner last night but they're still purple with rage over Jane Fonda.

Does that still mean that the current people in charge should not be held responsible?
That, frankly, in BS. Shinseki has been in charge for 5 years, and he should have at least STARTED an investigation before it became public. And if he truly did not know, then that is unacceptable.

In the back of my mind, all I hear is "Heck of a job Brownie". FEMA had problems for years before Hurricane Katrina, yet when they became apparent to the American public, it was obvious that he had to go.

If the Dr in Arizona would not have blown the whistle, would Shinseki have let this go on?

All of the focus right now is on the waiting lists, but in my opinion the worse scandal is the Texas VA which missed many cases of colon cancer because the heads of that VA decided only people with 3 consecutive fecal occult test were positive before a colonoscopy could be performed.

When people DIE (in case of both VA Phoenix, and VA Texas) someone MUST be held responsible, and in the case of Shinseki, the buck now stops with him.

I don't care if the Bush VA was bad to, his people aren't in charge now, and they have not been for 5 fricking years!

I bet a lot of that was created to provide high paying cushy jobs as political favors.

I'd start by looking to see how many idiot nephews of campaign contributors are pushing paper in a window office for 100k+ a year.

1) Smear the Democrats for the 2014 mid-terms.
2) Ultimately, to privatize the VA.

The sequestration and furloughs were to break the system.

This was all planned.

This goes back to the notion that wheeling and dealing and the ability to compromise is what makes a great leader. Never mind that all of their heroes didn't do ANY of that, it's still considered to be part of their conventional wisdom. Keep in mind that the NATURE of what is passed doesn't matter. It could be a massive kick in the teeth to the average American but it GOT PASSED and THAT is what matters.

By that metric the Republicans are doing all they can to not pass ANYTHING while claiming Obama refuses to work with them and to then run out the clock with investigations, probes and hearings.

Unfortunately, I fear we are preaching to the choir here on DU.

The RW echo-chamber is hoping the average voter only gets their tip-of-the-iceberg bumper-sticker length sound bite version of the whole picture.

It is nice to know someone out there "gets it".

When the Bush Economy (Actually the Conservative Economy) collapsed the public wanted THE GOVERNMENT to DO something.

According to the Republicans the government can't do ANYTHING and since then they have done all they can to prove that when they are in charge. Their biggest fear is for the public to actually LIKE what their government is doing. They are TERRIFIED that the general public is going to demand a tax hike on the rich to pay for things like schools and hospitals and bridges and highways because once they got a taste for that and see the benefit they would demand more and more.

I keep thinking about how my three story brick High School built in the 1890s originally had an observatory on the roof. Now the teachers have to buy pencils.

was that when the investigation was traced back to the real source, and it was found to be in that section of the hospital that had been privatized, the M$M dropped the issue like a hot potato.

Fuck all Repubs-and Dems-who want to privatize the VA medical system. That's not the answer, that's a RW "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" canard. What they really want to say is, "Thanks for your service. Now, GTFO."

I heard someone on CNBC claim "Obamacare" was a failure because it wasn't going to make anyone rich.

They consider the VA to be a "failure" for the same reason.

political, liberty university educated hacks.

I seem to recall there were a bunch of Dubya appointed hacks that got into the Civil Service.

Like the 25 year old they put in charge of all the traffic flow in Baghdad.

The son of a major contributor.

one to reward loyalty at taxpayer expense and two, to render government dysfunctional. In this case there was the added bonus of harming Veterans.

When they can parade them, living or dead, to celebrate a war and when they can use troops in a photo op to prove they support the troops.

Outside of those instances, Republicans much prefer military hardware. A ship or plane looks cool, doesn't complain about poor pay or conditions and if it gets damaged in war it can be thrown away. The people are far more complicated and needy.

Before they started partially privatizing the VA, it ran much smoother. Now, they send you off to the public sector with vouchers for some appointments, outsource the pharmacy orders, and a host of other things are are already privatization.

before they started doing all that crap, the VA ran much smoother and things got done. Now, it is a cluster fuck.