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Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
Fri May 30, 2014, 11:56 AM May 2014

Time for a reasoned post about Secretary Shinseki

Secretary Shinseki was confirmed in his position as Secretary of Veterans Affairs on January 20th 2009. That is more than five years as the man in charge. Five years he was reading reports, talking to his subordinates, listening to the complaints, and never connected the dots? How can you claim that you have gotten wait times down to fourteen days, and at the same time claim you can't do the job without nearly double the money? If you are doing very well with what you have, you can't claim to need much more to continue doing the fine job you are already doing. That is the catch 22 to borrow a phrase from literary history.

So I'm supposed to believe that Secretary Shinseki is the perfect man to clean up the mess that has been going on under his nose for five years without his knowledge?

Stop looking at this as opposing the Rethugs. All you are doing is making yourself and the Liberals look bad while you try and figure out a way to blame the Rethugs. The facts are that Criminal Fraud, lying to get bonus checks and promotions, was going on for five years under the watch of Secretary Shinseki. Either he didn't know which is what is claimed, or he was a participant. Either way you decide on that issue, Secretary Shinseki had to be fired. Either he was grossly incompetent, or he was willfully ignorant turning a blind eye to the practice.

This is not just a scandal. This is a criminal case. People profited from the lies they told. People got bonus checks because of the care they denied other people. Every single liberal should be demanding an investigation to hold those responsible accountable. Every single Democrat should be shouting at the tops of their lungs. Because either we hold those responsible accountable, or the voters will hold us accountable in November and in 2016. Yes, there is an element of politics involved, anything with Government is going to have some Politics involved. It's also about doing the most important thing, the right thing. Letting a few people retire after getting bonus checks for their lies is unacceptable.

Think about it my friends, think about it and you will see the truth. Five years as the head of the VA. I would be on your side opposing this if Secretary Shinseki had been given the job as little as a year ago. At two years, I might still be on the fence. But for five years he was ignorant? I find that incredibly hard to believe, and that is why the people got the head on the platter.

Yes it is important to oppose Rethugs. But when doing so has you defending the indefensible, you should consider your position for a few minutes. I believe this is one of those rare scandals when both sides can agree that something must be done. President Obama must tell the American Public that the Justice Department has launched an investigation into the fraudulent practice of false reports at the VA. They have committed fraud, and we are supposed to be offended by that.

11 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Time for a reasoned post about Secretary Shinseki (Original Post) Savannahmann May 2014 OP
I don't think he was incompetent or willfully ignorant. TwilightGardener May 2014 #1
I read your reply and spent several minutes considering it. Savannahmann May 2014 #8
Well, there's jerks and fuck-ups everywhere, including in the military. TwilightGardener May 2014 #10
K/R Thank you 840high May 2014 #2
Thanks for a sensible post Proud Liberal Dem May 2014 #3
He took responsibility and resigned. JaneyVee May 2014 #4
He was incompetent. LexVegas May 2014 #5
I don't put the blame on Gen. Shinseki. Chan790 May 2014 #6
Here again, the reasonable part of the argument Savannahmann May 2014 #9
All he had to do was to visit a few VA hospitals, talk to the patients, Nye Bevan May 2014 #7
+1 forthemiddle May 2014 #11

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
1. I don't think he was incompetent or willfully ignorant.
Fri May 30, 2014, 12:15 PM
May 2014

I think he didn't realize, after a lifetime of serving in the Army and being a flag officer, that: a civilian agency (especially with entrenched lifers) won't simply salute and make his decrees happen the way it works in the military, because they are not subjected to any real form of punishment for disobeying and playing games, and: civilian agencies don't have honor encoded in them. The people in the VA don't "serve", they're there for a paycheck and bennies. That's not wrong, that's how the rest of the not-military world works.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
8. I read your reply and spent several minutes considering it.
Fri May 30, 2014, 12:53 PM
May 2014

The problem is that many military officers have been relieved for incompetence, sexual harassment, improper sexual relations with subordinates, etc. Granted, we expect our military people to tell the truth. The problem is that history clearly shows that not everyone, in or out of uniform does. So you weigh the words your subordinates use. Is it probable that they are telling the truth?

There is no way that anyone could achieve the rank of General without running across someone who was less than completely honest. It is impossible.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
10. Well, there's jerks and fuck-ups everywhere, including in the military.
Fri May 30, 2014, 01:50 PM
May 2014

But they DO have more discipline, more respect for rank, and at least the ASPIRATION of honor, compared to the civilian world. I wasn't in the military, but my husband made a career out of it, and he remembers when his commander suddenly made them all wear their dress blues everyday (not even just a weekly Blues Day that other squadrons had), because a General passing through casually commented that he doesn't see young officers wearing their blues much anymore. Overreaction, based on nothing but an offhand comment by a General. I think that's the culture that Shinseki was used to--he didn't realize he'd now stumbled into an entire viper pit of liars and lazy-asses ready to game the system (not just one or two snakes here and there), and they didn't care about his rank at retirement.

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,438 posts)
3. Thanks for a sensible post
Fri May 30, 2014, 12:26 PM
May 2014

Though I disagree that fixing problems that have plagued the VA for decades should have been able to be fixed in the past five years and that Shinseki resigning was the best/correct response to it

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
4. He took responsibility and resigned.
Fri May 30, 2014, 12:26 PM
May 2014

I agree that this should be a bipartisan issue. Our vets deserve the best and an end to this crisis.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
6. I don't put the blame on Gen. Shinseki.
Fri May 30, 2014, 12:38 PM
May 2014

I've unfortunately lived in DC long enough to know that bureaucracy means graft and inefficiencies, whether that bureau is mostly-public (as the VA is) or increasingly-privatized. (As the GOP is going to push for with the VA.)

I blame the House Veteran's Affairs committee. They control the budget. They're the oversight for the VA. Where were they for the past 5 years? Oh yeah, they were busy cutting the VA budget and legislating sweetheart deals for their contractor friends. They did nothing, fiddling as the VA metaphorically-burned and contractors poured lighter fluid. I know about these contractors...I interviewed for some of them.

There's an old expression in rural CT where a grew up: "You can polish a turd but it's never going to be a diamond."

Gen. Shinseki was handed a turd, Congress acted to insure it remained a turd before "investigating" and being shocked to discover a turd. He did what he could with what he was handed.

Our veterans deserve better. They deserve a functioning VA run by people that care about their interests and know what it means to serve. They deserve a VA leadership that can care for them. They deserve responsible oversight. They got few of those things and wolves in the henhouse working to deprive them of the rest.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
9. Here again, the reasonable part of the argument
Fri May 30, 2014, 01:00 PM
May 2014

Let's say I work for you. I am your regional director for all warehouses. I am instructed by you that all trucks will be unloaded in one hour. From the time they touch the dock, until they are unloaded, can be no longer than an hour. This is possible if the cargo is palatalized. It is nearly impossible if the cargo in the truck is floor loaded boxes. A crew has to go in, and build the pallets by hand that way. It takes much longer to load/unload a trailer by hand, obviously.

I report that this is being done. No trailer is at any warehouse for more than an hour. I then tell you I need half again as much money budgeted to hire more staff to continue meeting these goals. You would laugh at me. You would, because I'm reporting to you that I am meeting the goals, with existing funding, why should you give me more money so I can continue to meet the same goals?

Do you see the problem now? Blaming the Republicans is part of it. Certainly. But the biggest thing is the reports. If you report you are meeting or surpassing every goal, with existing funds, there is no reason why anyone would give you more money. To justify more money you have to show that what you are budgeted now is insufficient to meet the requirements. So as long as the VA was lying about meeting requirements, they would never get significantly more money.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
7. All he had to do was to visit a few VA hospitals, talk to the patients,
Fri May 30, 2014, 12:41 PM
May 2014

and he would quickly have found out what was going on. Is that really too much to expect during a 5 year tenure? I am confused to see so many DUers defending him to the hilt.

forthemiddle

(1,382 posts)
11. +1
Fri May 30, 2014, 02:04 PM
May 2014

If after 5 years in charge he didn't know what was going on, then he was too far removed from the front lines to be effective.
People DIED because of lack of care, that should never, ever be acceptable to anyone, regardless of political fault lines.
And as for $$$$, as the OP points out, why would they get more money if they claim everything was hunky dory with the funds they already had allocated.
There has been a 35% increase in funding, since President Obama has been in office. We can't praise him for that (which is deserved) while also criticizing the GOP since in the end they are the ones that control purse strings at this time.
Obama came in saying he was putting a priority on VA Healthcare, had Shinseki not resigned, it would have been a black mark on the President, like it or not.

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